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#5601 man

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 13:13

I would be quite dissapointed if Schumacher was kicked out after this season, I am quite looking forward to seeing him embarass himself next year just like he has this year. After all, someone has to provide the comedy and his performances have often done just that.


Yes but you have to concede that the inter-team rivalry at Merc has become increasingly predictable to the point where for the sake of the spectacle it would be beneficial if Rosberg had a better teammate. In the same way as when Piquet had Rebaque, Senna had Dumfries and Nakajima, Prost had Cheever and so on, we the fans are being denied better entertainment because instead of seeing two drivers in the same team push each other we are seeing a one sided battle where Rosberg is beating M Schumacher by a cricket score. I would much prefer to see a driver that could at least Give Rosberg a harder time. It's just a waste of a good GP seat for the sake of merchandise sales.

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#5602 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 13:19

Just watched the Eddie Irvine interview at the BBC Forum in Monza, and his point that Schumacher was already fading in 2006 isn´t that far-fetched.


Yet, his stats compared to Massa are at the same level as with previous team-mates. So what is this claim based on?

http://www.f1-facts....es/M.Schumacher

#5603 cheapracer

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 14:31

I would be quite dissapointed if Schumacher was kicked out after this season, I am quite looking forward to seeing him embarass himself next year just like he has this year. After all, someone has to provide the comedy and his performances have often done just that.


Actually having raced cars and that which your clear lack of respect shows that you haven't, I respect every guy out there who's doing it.

Go and check out the current backmarkers resume's and how they got to be in F1 and theres no "comparitively speaking" exit card either, these guys for the most are simply the best open wheel drivers in the world, everyone of them deserves a chance on that grid and not one of them is embarrassing themselves.

Do you know who came 2nd at the last F3 race? Do you know who came second at the last F2 race? Do you even know who won either? But you well know the top ten result and possibly the entire field result for the last F1 race.

Out of interest I just ran around a few cyber shops for F1 merchandise and it will hugely disappoint you to know that MS items, shirts, model cars etc, are all on the best seller lists at the highest prices including Autosport shop so it may appear to some that that would put your comments into a minority.


#5604 Johnrambo

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 14:38

Go and check out the current backmarkers resume's and how they got to be in F1 and theres no "comparitively speaking" exit card either, these guys for the most are simply the best open wheel drivers in the world, everyone of them deserves a chance on that grid and not one of them is embarrassing themselves.


Schumacher is very much embarrassing his resume. Getting hammered by a journeyman Rosberg is ridiculous.

Out of interest I just ran around a few cyber shops for F1 merchandise and it will hugely disappoint you to know that MS items, shirts, model cars etc, are all on the best seller lists at the highest prices including Autosport shop so it may appear to some that that would put your comments into a minority.


That is the only reason MS is still at Merc. If he was a no name driver he would already been kicked out.

#5605 cheapracer

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 14:38

Yet, his stats compared to Massa are at the same level as with previous team-mates. So what is this claim based on?


Nothing.

2006 results....

Michael Schumacher
2 6 Ret 1 1 2 5 2 2 1 1 1 Ret 3 1 1 Ret 4

9 5 Ret 4 3 4 9 5 5 2 3 2 7 1 9 Ret 2 1
Felipe Massa



#5606 cheapracer

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 14:43

Schumacher is very much embarrassing his resume. Getting hammered by a journeyman Rosberg is ridiculous.


That is the only reason MS is still at Merc. If he was a no name driver he would already been kicked out.


Yeah sure, 7xWDC resume so easy to damage right? hey guess what, MS is the most successful driver in the history of F1, Google it if you don't believe me.....

And that "journeyman" has been pretty darn impressive by any standards MS teammate or no.

Performance aside you have no idea what input MS is giving, drivers like Patrese got top team drives for this very reason. And gee whizz, Mercedes like to sell more cars, the Devils.

Edited by cheapracer, 16 September 2010 - 14:48.


#5607 Paco

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 15:24

I guess 90% of this forum goes by the old saying.. "You're only as good as your last race"...

What made McLaren so strong for so many years for the continuity of Mika/David..
What made Ferrari so strong was the continuity of MS/Rubens/Massa

You can't keep swap out the the slower of the 2 every year without affecting the overall performance of the team.

Even next year, if MS is slower then Nico.. it's probably still in the best interest of the team to keep on board for as long as they can. He's still better then 75% of the grid even if he has lot it a bit.

Once the team has the design department work out and they have well balanced car that doesn't have probblem with the tires and solid reliability then they can look into the driver performances to make a run at the championship. However, before they have a race winning car.. the current drivers are more then capable of the task at hand right now.

ONCE AGAIN, it isn't the drivers that holding back the team from winning.. it's the design team! Fix that first.. then and only then look at the drivers.

Edited by Paco, 16 September 2010 - 15:25.


#5608 aditya-now

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 16:15

I would be quite dissapointed if Schumacher was kicked out after this season, I am quite looking forward to seeing him embarass himself next year just like he has this year. After all, someone has to provide the comedy and his performances have often done just that.


Well, he provides cheap entertainment, but I´d rather watch a driver in his heyday. And in Schumacher´s case, the comedy could still turn into a tragedy, taking into account his driving style. Nobody would want that....


#5609 ivand911

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 16:51

Some people like cheap entertainment. But,it is hard to call F1 cheap.

#5610 Wilgot

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 19:22

Would anyone happen to know where I could see some onboard footage from Schumacher's first lap of the Italian Grand Prix? I have been looking for some, but no luck... (Hi, I'm the new guy. :wave:)

#5611 ivand911

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 19:37

Would anyone happen to know where I could see some onboard footage from Schumacher's first lap of the Italian Grand Prix? I have been looking for some, but no luck... (Hi, I'm the new guy. :wave:)

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!
Nice overtake on Webber from outside, with lousy car. Constant corrections with the wheel. Why is he slow? This is a tough one.

Edited by ivand911, 16 September 2010 - 19:45.


#5612 Wilgot

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 19:59

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!
Nice overtake on Webber from outside, with lousy car. Constant corrections with the wheel. Why is he slow? This is a tough one.


Exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much! Very nice start, he was even ahead of Vettel for a few seconds... but what happens at 1:19?

#5613 ivand911

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 20:03

Exactly what I was looking for, thank you very much! Very nice start, he was even ahead of Vettel for a few seconds... but what happens at 1:19?

He said something about Hamilton, but his rear was coming off all the time. Can he slide on tyre brake mark from Lewis car? But, to overtake someone who start 8 places infront of him is something.

Edited by ivand911, 16 September 2010 - 20:09.


#5614 Wilgot

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 22:06

He said something about Hamilton, but his rear was coming off all the time. Can he slide on tyre brake mark from Lewis car? But, to overtake someone who start 8 places infront of him is something.


Hm, possibly. I just thought it looked a little weird, but I guess he couldn't have kept Vettel behind him too long anyway... He has done a lot of good starts this year, if the other parts of his races had been as good as his starts he could have been leading the championship! :cool:

#5615 ivand911

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:55

Hm, possibly. I just thought it looked a little weird, but I guess he couldn't have kept Vettel behind him too long anyway... He has done a lot of good starts this year, if the other parts of his races had been as good as his starts he could have been leading the championship! :cool:

He need to improve qualifications. But, he really hate that car.


#5616 jonathanknevels

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:30

Schumi just overdid that corner, first little bit of understeer, then oversteer


#5617 cheapracer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:39

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!
Nice overtake on Webber from outside, with lousy car. Constant corrections with the wheel. Why is he slow? This is a tough one.


I note later that Webber repaid the favour at the same spot.


#5618 as65p

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:00

Schumi just overdid that corner, first little bit of understeer, then oversteer


Obviously. :up:

But not half as exciting as labeling it a titanic struggle against an undriveable car.  ;)

#5619 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:12

Obviously. :up:

But not half as exciting as labeling it a titanic struggle against an undriveable car.  ;)


It's obviously not undriveable (see my post comparing the HRT vs the Red Bull for for what an undriveable really is!) as the car obviously has a great engine/gearbox combo and good traction. It does suffer in high speed corners with understeer and its hard to pinpoint and accurately place the car where you want it, thereby losing speed in the process.

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#5620 ivand911

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:16

Obviously. :up:

But not half as exciting as labeling it a titanic struggle against an undriveable car.  ;)

You say it is underivable. No body else use this word.


#5621 Lifew12

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:21

He's still better then 75% of the grid


An interesting comment. I'm not sure that he is (not 'bashing' here, just looking at the statement in the cold light of day) but that depends what you consider constitutes being 'better'.

With 24 drivers o the grid you're suggesting there are only six, or thereabouts, 'better' than the Michael Schumacher of 2010. That's a fair comment, but it does take some believing. I would safely say that the following six are, without doubt, currently 'better' than Michael (in no particular order): Alonso, Hamilton, Webber, Kubica, Button, Vettel, Rosberg. The last one, of course, is going to raise some arguments, but I don't see how it can be suggested otherwise. That leaves us to consider others such as Massa, Sutil, Barrichello - all of whom can have valid arguments made for them - and maybe the occasional flourish from the likes of Kobayashi, Hulkenberg, and so on. I think I would safely agree that he's easily 'better' than 50% of the field, but 75% is pushing it a little on the form we've seen so far. If he can't adapt to a car he 'doesn't like', after all, he can't really be that good, can he?


#5622 Number62

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:22

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!
Nice overtake on Webber from outside, with lousy car. Constant corrections with the wheel. Why is he slow? This is a tough one.


It's not a lousy car. It's just not as good as 3 other cars out there.

There's about 20 drivers out there i'd guess who'd rather be in the MGP race car than what they're in.

Nice lap from MSC though.

#5623 arknor

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:40

It's not a lousy car. It's just not as good as 3 other cars out there.

There's about 20 drivers out there i'd guess who'd rather be in the MGP race car than what they're in.

Nice lap from MSC though.

about 20? :rotfl:

alonso, massa would rather be in a ferrari

hamilton, button would rather be in a mclaren.

vettel, webber would rather be in a redbull.

kubica would rather be in a renault

theres only 24 drivers and thats 7 of them who almost certainly wouldnt switch.


#5624 Number62

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:02

about 20? :rotfl:

alonso, massa would rather be in a ferrari

hamilton, button would rather be in a mclaren.

vettel, webber would rather be in a redbull.

kubica would rather be in a renault

theres only 24 drivers and thats 7 of them who almost certainly wouldnt switch.


It's just a guess but pick your own number.

3 at HRT, 3 at Virgin, 3 at Lotus, 3 at FI, 3 at Sauber, 3 at TR, etc.

#5625 arknor

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:45

It's just a guess but pick your own number.

3 at HRT, 3 at Virgin, 3 at Lotus, 3 at FI, 3 at Sauber, 3 at TR, etc.

how the hell can you count people who dont actually drive the car anyway? ofcourse they would gladly go to HRT if they could actually drive the thing.

by your new found logic theres atleast a billion other drivers out there who's rather be in the MGP race car than what theyre in.

i can prove that now by stepping into the street and asking random motorists :rolleyes: how many of those 3rd drivers are actually in an f1 car? i bet 90% of them only get to go on the simulator and thats if there team even has one.

only 25 drivers have actually been in a race and you cant count chandhok when ofcourse he would rather be in any f1 car than on bbc 5 live

Edited by arknor, 17 September 2010 - 11:49.


#5626 Number62

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:52

how the hell can you count people who dont actually drive the car anyway? ofcourse they would gladly go to HRT if they could actually drive the thing.

by your new found logic theres atleast a billion other drivers out there who's rather be in the MGP race car than what theyre in.

i can prove that now by stepping into the street and asking random motorists :rolleyes: how many of those 3rd drivers are actually in an f1 car? i bet 90% of them only get to go on the simulator and thats if there team even has one


Don't be obtuse.

Would you rather be HRT test driver or MGP test driver. Do you think Fuazy would give up his test role for the MGP test role.

Nothing wrong with that logic. It's a perfectly sound measure of how lousy the car isn't.

#5627 arknor

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:01

Don't be obtuse.

Would you rather be HRT test driver or MGP test driver. Do you think Fuazy would give up his test role for the MGP test role.

Nothing wrong with that logic. It's a perfectly sound measure of how lousy the car isn't.

logic suggests a racing driver would want to be in a team where he has a chance of driving the car regardless of how bad it is.

he would never get a chance to drive the MGP so hes never going to impress anyone there ofcourse he would rather be with HRT where he might get to drive a practice session

#5628 arknor

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:01

Don't be obtuse.

Would you rather be HRT test driver or MGP test driver. Do you think Fuazy would give up his test role for the MGP test role.

Nothing wrong with that logic. It's a perfectly sound measure of how lousy the car isn't.

logic suggests a racing driver would want to be in a team where he has a chance of driving the car regardless of how bad it is.

he would never get a chance to drive the MGP so hes never going to impress anyone there ofcourse he would rather be with HRT where he might get to drive a practice session.

not bothering to answer anymore replies on the subject as your just getting ridiculous now

Edited by arknor, 17 September 2010 - 12:02.


#5629 Lifew12

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:01

Don't be obtuse.

Would you rather be HRT test driver or MGP test driver. Do you think Fuazy would give up his test role for the MGP test role.

Nothing wrong with that logic. It's a perfectly sound measure of how lousy the car isn't.


No, it's a measure of the status of the team, not the car.

#5630 Number62

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:10

logic suggests a racing driver would want to be in a team where he has a chance of driving the car regardless of how bad it is.

he would never get a chance to drive the MGP so hes never going to impress anyone there ofcourse he would rather be with HRT where he might get to drive a practice session.

not bothering to answer anymore replies on the subject as your just getting ridiculous now


That's not the point is it.

Mr. Driver do you chose job A with HRT or job A with MGP where job A is the same in both cases. Job A with MGP please because the car is better.

Ergo, there are about 20 current F1 professional drivers employed by current F1 francisees who would be happy to swap their current job for an identical one with MGP. because the car is better.

I respect your right to not reply. Have a nice day.

#5631 Lifew12

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:37

Mr. Driver do you chose job A with HRT or job A with MGP where job A is the same in both cases. Job A with MGP please because the car is better.


But that wouldn't be his answer: his answer would be Job A with MGP because it's Mercedes Benz, a major name that is known the world over and will get me much better exposure than HRT which isn't and won't, no matter how the cars compare.

#5632 Fortymark

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:40

http://www.youtube.c...layer_embedded#!
Nice overtake on Webber from outside, with lousy car. Constant corrections with the wheel. Why is he slow? This is a tough one.


That´s an very interesting video.
To me it looks like he has the car which he asks for, a pointy front end and mid corner oversteer.
He has no problems getting the car into lesmo 1, the car steers in good and then he gets oversteer.
The same happens in the others corners.

But you ask: "why is he slow?", I think you have the answer there, you just can´t be sliding the car today
you lose too much time. That´s why Vettel could overtake him in Lesmo

#5633 pUs

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:43

That´s an very interesting video.
To me it looks like he has the car which he asks for, a pointy front end and mid corner oversteer.
He has no problems getting the car into lesmo 1, the car steers in good and then he gets oversteer.
The same happens in the others corners.

But you ask: "why is he slow?", I think you have the answer there, you just can´t be sliding the car today
you lose too much time. That´s why Vettel could overtake him in Lesmo


Well, yeah, it's either that, or a badly compromised setup where they've taken rear grip away to make the thing turn in at all.. we can only guess

#5634 Number62

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:47

But that wouldn't be his answer: his answer would be Job A with MGP because it's Mercedes Benz, a major name that is known the world over and will get me much better exposure than HRT which isn't and won't, no matter how the cars compare.


I think we're off topic but.

Virgin is a major name that is known the world over and will get ......etc. You'd still choose a Sauber or Williams. BrawnGP was not a name known the world over.

Racing drivers want the best car they can get their hands on not the best brand.



#5635 Lifew12

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 12:50

I think we're off topic but.

Virgin is a major name that is known the world over and will get ......etc. You'd still choose a Sauber or Williams. BrawnGP was not a name known the world over.

Racing drivers want the best car they can get their hands on not the best brand.


Virgin is a well known brand, but not in motor racing. It means nothing to a driver wanting to forward his career. Brawn GP only came into being because Honda pulled out; you'll notice that it rapidly became Mercedes in order to survive.

Of course racing drivers want the best car they can get their hands on, but your example was a choice between HRT and Mercedes with the reason being that the driver would choose the Mercedes simply because the car was better. He wouldn't, he'd choose it because its Mercedes.

#5636 dav115

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 14:21

Well, yeah, it's either that, or a badly compromised setup where they've taken rear grip away to make the thing turn in at all.. we can only guess

This ties in very nicely with what Brawn was describing on the BBC F1 forum after the Italian GP (he was talking about the W01 in general, not just Michael's setup). He basically said that one of the fundamental problems with the car is the large balance change between turn-in and apex, from understeer to oversteer, and that in trying to address this (for example by adding front wing) it made very little difference to the turn-in understeer, but made the mid-corner oversteer MUCH worse.

#5637 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 16:49

That´s an very interesting video.
To me it looks like he has the car which he asks for, a pointy front end and mid corner oversteer.
He has no problems getting the car into lesmo 1, the car steers in good and then he gets oversteer.
The same happens in the others corners.

But you ask: "why is he slow?", I think you have the answer there, you just can´t be sliding the car today
you lose too much time. That´s why Vettel could overtake him in Lesmo



Throughout FP1, FP2, FP3, Qualifying and the race, the Mercedes GP cars were up there with the best of them in sector one. The car was brilliant through the first sector - both drivers were in fact. Then they lost bundles of time from the Lesmos to the Parabolica (I believe it was well over 1 to 1.5 seconds respectively) for both of them.

Vettle overtook him because Schumacher slid following Hamilton's excursion into the graveltrap. He was off line and off balance. Even a Schumacher hater can see that.

#5638 rad787

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 17:40

This ties in very nicely with what Brawn was describing on the BBC F1 forum after the Italian GP (he was talking about the W01 in general, not just Michael's setup). He basically said that one of the fundamental problems with the car is the large balance change between turn-in and apex, from understeer to oversteer, and that in trying to address this (for example by adding front wing) it made very little difference to the turn-in understeer, but made the mid-corner oversteer MUCH worse.


Interesting. Do you have a link to the interview?

#5639 dav115

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 19:03

Interesting. Do you have a link to the interview?

Sure, though you may have to be quick as it might be removed from youtube due to copyright reasons .

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#5640 ivand911

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 19:46

I like the interview ,especially the part about new young engineers and man form Michelin. Don't know if this young engineers will have enough experience?

Young Michael: http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded
Very focused and honest.
Here with Ralf: http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

Edited by ivand911, 18 September 2010 - 09:09.


#5641 dav115

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 20:44

Whoops, it seems I got the oversteer/understeer the wrong way round watching that clip again. The problem of the balance change still exists though.

#5642 Mandzipop

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 00:33

Don't give Schumacher a hard time. I have been at the thick end of it for the last 2 days with regards to him. Why did he get number 1 priority status. I know. Why is he struggling? I know. This has been one seriously wierd weekend. I am a bit freaked out by it. I cant comment too much about it, but it is due to the lack of testing.

#5643 cheapracer

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 03:14

This ties in very nicely with what Brawn was describing on the BBC F1 forum after the Italian GP (he was talking about the W01 in general, not just Michael's setup). He basically said that one of the fundamental problems with the car is the large balance change between turn-in and apex, from understeer to oversteer, and that in trying to address this (for example by adding front wing) it made very little difference to the turn-in understeer, but made the mid-corner oversteer MUCH worse.


From what I see with the many in car hours I have of this year, MS has turn in OS which turns into mid corner US necessitating snap OS on exit.

The snap exit OS was very visable at Monza and nothing like any incar of MS's style in the previous era.


#5644 Buttoneer

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:54

Don't give Schumacher a hard time. I have been at the thick end of it for the last 2 days with regards to him. Why did he get number 1 priority status. I know. Why is he struggling? I know. This has been one seriously wierd weekend. I am a bit freaked out by it. I cant comment too much about it, but it is due to the lack of testing.

Ooo - interesting. Whatever you can tell us then (or clarify a little more on what is already in the public domain) will be good. Otherwise, don't risk saying stuff you think you're unable to.

#5645 as65p

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:21

Don't give Schumacher a hard time. I have been at the thick end of it for the last 2 days with regards to him. Why did he get number 1 priority status. I know. Why is he struggling? I know. This has been one seriously wierd weekend. I am a bit freaked out by it. I cant comment too much about it, but it is due to the lack of testing.


In that case (not impossible of course) it's not a definitive explanation, more like a hopeful possibility. Because there's obviously no guarantee that MS would profit more from testing than other drivers, especially Rosberg. I guess it's fair to say every driver on the grid would gain from testing as it was in the past.

Edited by as65p, 19 September 2010 - 10:21.


#5646 korzeniow

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:24

In that case (not impossible of course) it's not a definitive explanation, more like a hopeful possibility. Because there's obviously no guarantee that MS would profit more from testing than other drivers, especially Rosberg. I guess it's fair to say every driver on the grid would gain from testing as it was in the past.


Yes, but certainly not as much as newcomers would

#5647 ivand911

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:30

Don't give Schumacher a hard time. I have been at the thick end of it for the last 2 days with regards to him. Why did he get number 1 priority status. I know. Why is he struggling? I know. This has been one seriously wierd weekend. I am a bit freaked out by it. I cant comment too much about it, but it is due to the lack of testing.

It is enough for me. :)


#5648 as65p

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:44

It is enough for me. :)


Sure. Pesky details could only hurt, so better leave them in the dark, right? :p

#5649 ivand911

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:55

Sure. Pesky details could only hurt, so better leave them in the dark, right? :p

Right, I prefer this instead "if I tell you, I have to kill you" line. :rotfl: Sometimes you can't share information and sources. Take it or leave it. If she can tell us more will be nice.

Edited by ivand911, 19 September 2010 - 10:56.


#5650 arknor

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 11:58

Right, I prefer this instead "if I tell you, I have to kill you" line. :rotfl: Sometimes you can't share information and sources. Take it or leave it. If she can tell us more will be nice.

whos mandizipop to get credibility so fast?