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#5701 Clatter

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:41

And perhaps Rosberg - and Sutil and Kubica and Massa - are much better than we all thought. I am pretty much convinced that the level of drivers in F1 of the last five years is higher than ever.


I think the level of drivers has always been pretty high, the biggest difference now is how close the performance of the cars are compared to 5+ years ago.

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#5702 slaveceru

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:51

I think the level of drivers has always been pretty high, the biggest difference now is how close the performance of the cars are compared to 5+ years ago.

And this is probably due to the limiting testing and not the rules in general. The rules have always changed in F1 but we have for the first time in the history of F1 limiting testing. With this rule the rookies and the returners to the sport are affected much more than it used to be in previous years. So if Kimi returns we will see how he can cope with the short leave in comparison to his team mate then we can more accurately evaluate Schumacher performance this and next year.

Edited by slaveceru, 21 September 2010 - 09:54.


#5703 Chezrome

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:55

I think the level of drivers has always been pretty high, the biggest difference now is how close the performance of the cars are compared to 5+ years ago.


True, the cars are equal between teams and in one team. However, nobody would raise an eyebrow in the 60's, 70's, 80, 90's if one driver was seconds slower than the other driver in the same car. Now eyebrows are raised if a driver (for example Schumacher is continuously just 0.3 slower during a whole race. I am everytime amazed how incredibly consistent the F1 drivers are in putting down laptimes within 0.2 seconds of eachother. Even with the full tank with which they start. That capacity - driving lap after lap in the same bracket - used to be the strength of Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna and later Schumacher. Now 'everybody' seems to be able to do it.

I've never done research into this, but I have the feeling that if you could find consecutive laptimes of races in the 90's, you would see much more variation in the laptimes.




#5704 arknor

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 10:34

There's no such thing. MGP engineers are well capable to make the understeer or oversteer as they please. Problem is, with the narrower B'stone fronts they'll make the car slower by making it understeer less as they need to take off back downforce to accomplish this. Adding front DF won't do the trick as according to Ross there is a limit on the grip you can get from these tyres beyond which adding downforce will only serve to increase the drag.

dont believe this at all maybe if the car was more neutral but its not we know its an understeering car from the off regardless of the tyres and the centre of gravity is to high , the car has problems getting tyres to temprature and then when it does problems keeping them at temprature.

weve also been lead to believe the car has a very narrow setup range which would further reduce the possibility of making the car understeer or oversteer.

schumacher obviously has to make big sacrafices to try and get the car to feel like he wants it look at the start of the year when he was experimenting often he would have barely any rear end grip at all and it clearly showed even on the slow corners.

i dont believe theres much rosberg or schumacher can do with setups on this car

#5705 Hacklerf

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 11:18

Schumacher will be there next year, of this there is no doubt

#5706 Tsarwash

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 11:48

The tide of Schumacher is beginning to turn. Not amongst the moderates, but the real 'blind' fans who used to think the sun rose out of his behind. Schumacher was undoubtedly VERY good, but some people forget that he had an extremely good team around him too. The best car designer, the best race tactician and the best team manager. Also he had a contractially tied number two driver for five of his championships. People who would hold the rest of the cars up, so that Schumacher got a free pit stop. It is Schuey's talent that got him to the very front, but once he was there, he had all sort of advantages over his challengers. You have to respect Hill, Alonso and Hekkinen for beating him in such circumstances.

And I haven't even mention the percieved Fia bias of the time yet, either. :p

#5707 arknor

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 12:02

The tide of Schumacher is beginning to turn. Not amongst the moderates, but the real 'blind' fans who used to think the sun rose out of his behind. Schumacher was undoubtedly VERY good, but some people forget that he had an extremely good team around him too. The best car designer, the best race tactician and the best team manager. Also he had a contractially tied number two driver for five of his championships. People who would hold the rest of the cars up, so that Schumacher got a free pit stop. It is Schuey's talent that got him to the very front, but once he was there, he had all sort of advantages over his challengers. You have to respect Hill, Alonso and Hekkinen for beating him in such circumstances.

And I haven't even mention the percieved Fia bias of the time yet, either. :p

was it wiliams who holded someone up so mclaren good win?

its hardly an unknown fact that irvine and coulthard were basicly rear gunners

coulthard wasnt a #2 driver? next youll be saying hakkinen was crap

Edited by arknor, 21 September 2010 - 12:05.


#5708 Tsarwash

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 12:12

And if Schumacher stays next year, he might find himself getting beat by Petrov and Sutil regularly, (I mean more than this year). This year is pretty stunningly bad. I mean, Rosberg and Kubica are fighting at 110 ish points, and teammates Sch are on 46 and Petrov on 19. He is doing better than Petrov, but not by that much really. He is closer to Petrov than he is to Roberg or Kubica.

#5709 Tsarwash

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 12:18

coulthard wasnt a #2 driver? next youll be saying hakkinen was crap

Please stop putting words or potential words in my mouth. I didn't say anything of the kind, on either count.

was it wiliams who holded someone up so mclaren good win?

I have got no idea what you are trying to say. I do not understand.


#5710 Lifew12

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 12:19

Schumacher will be there next year, of this there is no doubt


As a race driver? I would say that there is a good deal of doubt.

#5711 F1Johnny

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 13:52

Ive seen Hamilton reach his limitations quite a lot.

Ive seen Alonso reach his limitations in some races this year too.

Ive seen Vettel exploring his limitations quite a lot.

Ive seen Massa being his rear end handed to him by Alonso in a way that makes Schumacher vs Rosberg pretty good.

Or check out the stats of Petrov vs Kubica.

Yet none of them get bashed and told:youre past it.

That makes this whole tainted legacy nonsense a rather opportunistic non-argument.

Youre looking for reasons Schumacher isnt trashing Rosberg, idd say go with the explanations given by Ross Brawn - never a man known to be polishing the truth - and by Michael himself:

- The car has characteristics he doesnt like.

- He cant get the best out of the tyres.

- Testing ban unables him to get to the bottom of it.

- The car is hardly a front runner.

- Has various design mistakes.

End of story.


Is this a serious position that you're taking?

Each of the drivers you pointed out does get bashed for the mistakes they make. The thing is they are consstently and significantly faster than MS this year.

I just don't get why you guys take this so personally. Can you imagine any other driver giving the list of excuses for not being fast that you have listed above. They would be drawn over the coals by this board including you.


#5712 valachus

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 14:58

I'm not saying he didn't win 91 GPs. If things don't get better next year and Rosberg beats him again, there are a whole host of people that didn't see him race, only heard about him and that will only remember him losing to Rosberg.


5-to-10-year-olds?

#5713 F1Johnny

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 15:36

5-to-10-year-olds?


He did win his first 2 championships 16 and 15 years ago. But a legacy is something that should stand the test of time and inform fans that didn't have the opportunity to see them race. I didn't see Jackie Stewart or Jim Clark or even much of Niki Lauda, but it feels as if I didn't need to. So yes the 5 to 10 year olds.

There will be a group of fans that will remember that he came back and failed if he doesn't do well next year. Of course he is the most successful driver in F1 and that will never change IMO, but he is doing himself a disservice by continuing at a level below his usual standard.

#5714 JackTorrance

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 16:37

Rubbish. They have all been well and truly bashed for their errors, but no they have not been told they are past it as they are not in the same situation as MS. Your not looking for reasons why he is losing the battle, but for excuses. IMHO none of those excuses are valid for someone of his experience and everything points to his best days being behind him.


You want to say none of those other drivers are told they are past it because theyve never reached Schumachers height? Id go along with that explanation.

And perhaps you didnt read it well enough, as i said the reasons mentioned by Brawn and Schumacher are an excuse for his current form.




. Schumacher's legend has been slowly building up tarnish since the early days.


You bring this as being a fact, while reading the mixed views of this thread alone, its a very debatable stance.

Id say Schumachers legend would be a bit tarnished if someone would step up and starts to match his performances. Like winning 5 championships in a row. Guiding Ferrari to that immense form. And since that is unlikely to happen in the next 300 years Schumacher can qualify P-last with Rosberg P1 for the next 10 years. Hell still be the best ever F1 driver in history.


#5715 hannu

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 17:03

I think one thing that is different from ms´s old days is that nowdays people in the middlepack and even in last places don´t give up and just let him past.
Sometimes it was just ridicilious how easily he was let past. Now they fight.

Edited by hannu, 21 September 2010 - 17:06.


#5716 Clatter

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 17:42

You want to say none of those other drivers are told they are past it because theyve never reached Schumachers height? Id go along with that explanation.


You probably would go for that twist of the words, but you know full well that that is not the explanation.


#5717 Timstr11

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 17:48

Schumachers' failure to match Rosberg's pace is all about tyres and him lacking the ability to drive around certain characteristics, while Rosberg can.

Schumacher is from the era of almost unlimited R&D spending, when tyre suppliers could spend to out-develop each other.
During the Schumacher era, the rules allowed tyre manufacturers to research and test huge numbers of constructions, shapes and compounds to suit a specific car and driver. And we all know the extremely close relationship between Ferrari and Bridgestone, which allowed them to design tyres to suit Ferrari and Schumacher, throughout the year.

Now fast-forward to 2010, to the Resource Restricted era, where ALL drivers have to make do with the one 4-compound spec tyre.
There's no way for the tyre supplier to design their tyre towards a car AND at the same time, there are very limited possibilities for the car designers to make in-season changes to better suit the tyres. You're basically stuck with what you have.

The above puts Schumacher's past dominance into a new perspective.
It shows that with the team around him, at the time they had the ability to design (and re-design if needed) a car-tyre package to suit his needs.
However, if you give him a car-tyre package that's somewhat outside of what he's comfortable with, he will have difficulties to drive around it.

My conclusion is that Rosberg HAS the ability to drive around the current negative characteristics of the W01 to an extent, while Schumacher does not.

Schumacher was good, but not as good as we were all made to believe during the era when teams and tyre suppliers could engineer their way out of a handling problem with almost no technical rules restrictions. Most of the credit for his dominating speed should go to the high-dollar and clever engineering during the Ferrari-Bridgestone alliance.

Pirelli
Therefore, Schumacher can only hope and pray that the Pirellis currently being designed will suit his style.
He will find out at the first test after Abu Dhabi and I think his final decision to retire will depend on that test.
No wonder Ross Brawn is sending subliminal messages to Pirelli to design a tyre package with strong fronts, which apparently better allows Schumacher to do his thing...

#5718 Clatter

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 17:51

Schumachers' failure to match Rosberg's pace is all about tyres and him lacking the ability to drive around certain characteristics, while Rosberg can.

Schumacher is from the era of almost unlimited R&D spending, when tyre suppliers could spend to out-develop each other.
During the Schumacher era, the rules allowed tyre manufacturers to research and test huge numbers of constructions, shapes and compounds to suit a specific car and driver. And we all know the extremely close relationship between Ferrari and Bridgestone, which allowed them to design tyres to suit Ferrari and Schumacher, throughout the year.

Now fast-forward to 2010, to the Resource Restricted era, where ALL drivers have to make do with the one 4-compound spec tyre.
There's no way for the tyre supplier to design their tyre towards a car AND at the same time, there are very limited possibilities for the car designers to make in-season changes to better suit the tyres. You're basically stuck with what you have.

The above puts Schumacher's past dominance into a new perspective.
It shows that with the team around him, at the time they had the ability to design (and re-design if needed) a car-tyre package to suit his needs.
However, if you give him a car-tyre package that's somewhat outside of what he's comfortable with, he will have difficulties to drive around it.

My conclusion is that Rosberg HAS the ability to drive around the current negative characteristics of the W01 to an extent, while Schumacher does not.

Schumacher was good, but not as good as we were all made to believe during the era when teams and tyre suppliers could engineer their way out of a handling problem with almost no technical rules restrictions. Most of the credit for his dominating speed should go to the high-dollar and clever engineering during the Ferrari-Bridgestone alliance.

Pirelli
Therefore, Schumacher can only hope and pray that the Pirellis currently being designed will suit his style.
He will find out at the first test after Abu Dhabi and I think his final decision to retire will depend on that test.
No wonder Ross Brawn is sending subliminal messages to Pirelli to design a tyre package with strong fronts, which apparently better allows Schumacher to do his thing...


So you don't think being out of the game for 3 years has anything to with it?


#5719 Murdoch

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 17:53

It was always said that Schumacher could drive round problems with his car, unlike his team mates, this was one of the reasons why he was so special (which it might of been back in the day).

So, whats happened to that ability?

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#5720 dav115

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 17:53

Schumachers' failure to match Rosberg's pace is all about tyres and him lacking the ability to drive around certain characteristics, while Rosberg can.

Schumacher is from the era of almost unlimited R&D spending, when tyre suppliers could spend to out-develop each other.
During the Schumacher era, the rules allowed tyre manufacturers to research and test huge numbers of constructions, shapes and compounds to suit a specific car and driver. And we all know the extremely close relationship between Ferrari and Bridgestone, which allowed them to design tyres to suit Ferrari and Schumacher, throughout the year.

Now fast-forward to 2010, to the Resource Restricted era, where ALL drivers have to make do with the one 4-compound spec tyre.
There's no way for the tyre supplier to design their tyre towards a car AND at the same time, there are very limited possibilities for the car designers to make in-season changes to better suit the tyres. You're basically stuck with what you have.

The above puts Schumacher's past dominance into a new perspective.
It shows that with the team around him, at the time they had the ability to design (and re-design if needed) a car-tyre package to suit his needs.
However, if you give him a car-tyre package that's somewhat outside of what he's comfortable with, he will have difficulties to drive around it.

My conclusion is that Rosberg HAS the ability to drive around the current negative characteristics of the W01 to an extent, while Schumacher does not.

Schumacher was good, but not as good as we were all made to believe during the era when teams and tyre suppliers could engineer their way out of a handling problem with almost no technical rules restrictions. Most of the credit for his dominating speed should go to the high-dollar and clever engineering during the Ferrari-Bridgestone alliance.

Pirelli
Therefore, Schumacher can only hope and pray that the Pirellis currently being designed will suit his style.
He will find out at the first test after Abu Dhabi and I think his final decision to retire will depend on that test.
No wonder Ross Brawn is sending subliminal messages to Pirelli to design a tyre package with strong fronts, which apparently better allows Schumacher to do his thing...

He seemed pretty handy during 1991-1998 on Pirellis/Goodyears.

#5721 Timstr11

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 18:06

So you don't think being out of the game for 3 years has anything to with it?

Nope. That's what everyone first thought, but after so many races, he should have been on the pace by now. Even he, nor the team are using that excuse any longer.

#5722 Timstr11

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 18:07

He seemed pretty handy during 1991-1998 on Pirellis/Goodyears.

There was in-season tyre development. Now there isn't.

Edited by Timstr11, 21 September 2010 - 18:10.


#5723 arknor

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 18:12

I think one thing that is different from ms´s old days is that nowdays people in the middlepack and even in last places don´t give up and just let him past.
Sometimes it was just ridicilious how easily he was let past. Now they fight.

it was the same for all the top teams slower cars didnt see the point in trying to be defensive when it was inevitable they would get past anyway and they would only lost time trying

Schumacher was good, but not as good as we were all made to believe during the era when teams and tyre suppliers could engineer their way out of a handling problem with almost no technical rules restrictions. Most of the credit for his dominating speed should go to the high-dollar and clever engineering during the Ferrari-Bridgestone alliance.

his speed didnt suddenly apear with bridgestone and ferrari though

It was always said that Schumacher could drive round problems with his car, unlike his team mates, this was one of the reasons why he was so special (which it might of been back in the day).

So, whats happened to that ability?

cars are easier to drive than ever and acording to some fairly recent drivers the difference between a bad setup and a perfect one these days is as little as 0.5seconds

its probably why the field seems so close together now

#5724 Timstr11

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 18:31

his speed didnt suddenly apear with bridgestone and ferrari though

What I'm saying is that Schumacher is the type who needs the car to come to him, not the other way around.
During the late nineties and early 2000s, teams and tyre suppliers could engineer a car towards a driver. Now those possibilities are very, very limited due to rules restrictions.

Compared to Rosberg, Schumacher simply has difficulties to adapt. Not something you expect from a driver who many believed had/has mythical abilities. Obviously he doesn't. Schumacher was largely flattered by the almost limitless and top engineering resources available in the teams he raced for in those days.
And if you also take into account that teams are now much closer in terms of performance due to the technical restrictions, Schumacher is exposed as a less adaptable driver.


#5725 JackTorrance

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 18:36

You probably would go for that twist of the words, but you know full well that that is not the explanation.


I figured if you twist my words and deduct conclusions that fit your opinion, you wouldnt mind if i did the same ;)

Id like to think im fairly balanced towards shumis performance. He was slow in a few races but also reasonable in others, like Spa, wich was only 2 races ago. He doesnt fit the hes past it conclusion with me. Far from it actually.

#5726 Murdoch

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 18:38

it was the same for all the top teams slower cars didnt see the point in trying to be defensive when it was inevitable they would get past anyway and they would only lost time trying

his speed didnt suddenly apear with bridgestone and ferrari though

cars are easier to drive than ever and acording to some fairly recent drivers the difference between a bad setup and a perfect one these days is as little as 0.5seconds

its probably why the field seems so close together now


So Schumacher is consistantly going the wrong way with the setup? Schumacher, the 7 times world champion, is consistantly chosing the wrong setup? How is this, surely he has sooo much experience and knowledge to fall back on?

Nico Rosberg appears to be making more informed decisions than his more experienced team mate.

Either that, or he's just plain quicker.....

(I'm sorry guys but joking with Schumacher fans at the moment is similar bursting bubble wrap, its so easy and moorish)

#5727 SeanValen

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 19:14

I figured if you twist my words and deduct conclusions that fit your opinion, you wouldnt mind if i did the same ;)

Id like to think im fairly balanced towards shumis performance. He was slow in a few races but also reasonable in others, like Spa, wich was only 2 races ago. He doesnt fit the hes past it conclusion with me. Far from it actually.




Spa and Monaco are driver's tracks, Spain is a challenge as well, and Spain was where he showed his first signs of resurrection.

This car this year just leaves him with too few set up options, with no in season/development and no testing, along with missing 3 years of evolution of cars, the fact he did well at Monaco/Spain/Turkey/Spa was encourging, and albert park's broken wing along with sepang wheel nut dnf didn't help things out, the damaged to the chassic hampered his china performance where he was critically mashed until he showed he was on it at Spain again. He lost points at Monaco for what was a bad punishment many knew he didn't deserve. I think his points tally should of been easily 20-30 points up without the extra badluck, usually with Schumacher, when things go wrong, other things go wrong that isn't his fault, so it makes his year look more bad then it ideally should be.

But there is a saying, better to have sat on the throne 7 times and tried to sit on it a 8th time then to never sat on it or went for it at all. At the end of the day, life is life, Schumacher's legacy is one of trying and not giving up, at least he tried a comeback, despite once saying in 2007 after his retirement "Once your out, your out for good." But if you look at Rubens racing in 2009 and picking up points, Jenson Button with a title who was pretty much written off before 2009, and Mark Webber also written off, going for a title this year, then Michael has good reason to stick it out, especially if he thinks he's capable of more.

Edited by SeanValen, 21 September 2010 - 19:27.


#5728 arknor

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 21:02

So Schumacher is consistantly going the wrong way with the setup? Schumacher, the 7 times world champion, is consistantly chosing the wrong setup? How is this, surely he has sooo much experience and knowledge to fall back on?

Nico Rosberg appears to be making more informed decisions than his more experienced team mate.

Either that, or he's just plain quicker.....

(I'm sorry guys but joking with Schumacher fans at the moment is similar bursting bubble wrap, its so easy and moorish)

he does ?

#5729 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 22:22

He seemed pretty handy during 1991-1998 on Pirellis/Goodyears.



We'll just ignore the facts :D

Too many arm chair experts and day-dreaming Team Principles and Technical Director wannabes on here.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 21 September 2010 - 22:27.


#5730 JackTorrance

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 23:07

But there is a saying, better to have sat on the throne 7 times and tried to sit on it a 8th time then to never sat on it or went for it at all. At the end of the day, life is life, Schumacher's legacy is one of trying and not giving up, at least he tried a comeback, despite once saying in 2007 after his retirement "Once your out, your out for good." But if you look at Rubens racing in 2009 and picking up points, Jenson Button with a title who was pretty much written off before 2009, and Mark Webber also written off, going for a title this year, then Michael has good reason to stick it out, especially if he thinks he's capable of more.


Youre so right.

It also made me think back to the stories starting in 98 that Schumacher was past it, and that he would retire. Nigel Roebuck maintainted for a long time that Schumacher could never be regarded as a great because he makes too many mistakes and would never win another championship. He stopped saying those things after Shumi won his 3rd straight title with Ferrari end of 2003 though. In fact, Roebuck has changed his opinion quite drastically and now considers Schumacher indeed to be one of the greats of F1.

Gives hope for his other criticasters :)


#5731 rad787

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 01:52

I have another theory, too. Just how I perceive things.

I think when Michael got used to cars being engineered to suit his style year in year out, he forgot how to adapt to problematic cars not made to his liking.

Rosberg, on the other hand, has never driven a really good/top car. He has always driven midfield or best of the rest cars and, accordingly, is used to driving around the problem. At the moment, therefore, Rosberg is better able at driving the car than Schumi.

At any rate, things are a little bit exaggerated in terms of point comparison in view of the questionable race strategy calls and penalties applied to Schumi. The two would have been closer and the difference may not necessarily be worth the overrated fuss around here.

#5732 Clatter

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:06

He seemed pretty handy during 1991-1998 on Pirellis/Goodyears.


He seemed pretty handy on BS's in the past as well, but now we are told they are the problem. To think that performance on Pirellis nearly 20 years ago is an indicator of how things will go now is to say the least far fetched.

#5733 tormave

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:21

It was always said that Schumacher could drive round problems with his car, unlike his team mates, this was one of the reasons why he was so special (which it might of been back in the day).

So, whats happened to that ability?

I doubt he ever had to. Back then we had qualifying tyres, different tyre compounds for each race and unlimited testing between races. Schumacher carried out most of the testing. So it was his team mates struggling to find the setup, not MS himself.

People seem to hope Pirellis match Schumacher's preferences better. Moving to a different manufacturer will not however change the testing limitations, having the same two compounds for everyone and the need for ability to tune the car to both quali and race with only a handful of laps. I doubt the relative gap to Rosberg will change, as the problems MS has faced this year have affected Nico equally. Having a car better suited to the tyres next year would help Nico at least as much as it'll help MS.

#5734 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:24

you are (on purpose?) missing things
1) bridgestones are narrower on the front than the rears
2) the car has got to take 1 into account when being designed...and it hasn't been successful at it....they tried to modify this as much as possible under the current configuration by moving the suspension a bit
3) this years tyres are a bit different ross & other people said it..after some load you do it for nothing, no more grip comes from them
4) testing is banned, even development like changing chassis is banned. so if the basis is bad you're chances to change it are slimmer


it's michael's fault he doesn't extract more out of the package but it's not like he's saying it's somebody else's fault. he just says what he doesn't like about the car and that's it.

#5735 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:24

you are (on purpose?) missing things
1) bridgestones are narrower on the front than the rears
2) the car has got to take 1 into account when being designed...and it hasn't been successful at it....they tried to modify this as much as possible under the current configuration by moving the suspension a bit
3) this years tyres are a bit different ross & other people said it..after some load you do it for nothing, no more grip comes from them
4) testing is banned, even development like changing chassis is banned. so if the basis is bad you're chances to change it are slimmer


it's michael's fault he doesn't extract more out of the package but it's not like he's saying it's somebody else's fault. he just says what he doesn't like about the car and that's it.

#5736 Lifew12

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:27

In fact, Roebuck has changed his opinion quite drastically and now considers Schumacher indeed to be one of the greats of F1.


Has he? I must start reading again - last time I read Roebuck he considered Michael a blot on the landscape!




#5737 Frans

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 08:46

2010 may be very well the first season from Schumacher where he is showing his TREU potential, without the clouded helping hands he always had help from in his carreer before.

Maybe he ALWAYS was an manufactured product of his successes?

His title and title's after that, where more the result of Bernie Ecclestone's outspoken wish in 1993 to have a German Worldchampion in F1, than a result of Schumacher's input alone? I believe so.

Mercedes has a problem now. They can't dump him, (they never want to admit it was an error to take him back) and Schumacher doesn't want to stop (his mentality and the money) ... so Mercedes has a not-wanting-to-stop oldie, ruining the imago of they're cool silver cars.

newly watching F1 fans all over the world will never understand the fuzz about Schumacher's comeback an will think the "older" generation of f1 fans are nuts thinking this driver is so good. He has shown nothing in 2010 to justify his presence in F1 today. He is showing how not-to-do it in a Mercedes F1 racecar, the perfect German combination on paper, is not much to brag about eh Mickey?

But you will not hear me complaining, I have the season of a lifetime! :rotfl: I really hope they can't get rid of each other (Merc and Schu) for the comming 2 seasons, because I like it to much! :smoking:

#5738 ivand911

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:10

But you will not hear me complaining, I have the season of a lifetime! :rotfl: I really hope they can't get rid of each other (Merc and Schu) for the comming 2 seasons, because I like it to much! :smoking:

:up: I know for a long time that you are fan. We share the same hopes. Anything else doesn't matter. :wave: Some people just can't see the big picture.

Edited by ivand911, 22 September 2010 - 09:16.


#5739 Lifew12

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:15

They can't dump him,


They can, with ease. All they have to do is not take up their option for the next two seasons.

and Schumacher doesn't want to stop


I think you credit the man with much less intelligence than he has. If Michael Schumacher thinks that things are not going to get much better - I'm not saying he does, but if he does - then I've little dount his motivation for trundling around in the midfield will not be up to much. He's a winher, he wants to win, he doesn't want to bag a load of sixth, seventh, eighth places. He has better things to do in life. If he comes to the conclusion that this is how it's going to be from now on - and let's face it, being honest, no matter how much better the car gets next year that's going to benefit Rosberg too - he'll have no hesitation in quitting.


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#5740 ivand911

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:19

They can, with ease. All they have to do is not take up their option for the next two seasons.



I think you credit the man with much less intelligence than he has. If Michael Schumacher thinks that things are not going to get much better - I'm not saying he does, but if he does - then I've little dount his motivation for trundling around in the midfield will not be up to much. He's a winher, he wants to win, he doesn't want to bag a load of sixth, seventh, eighth places. He has better things to do in life. If he comes to the conclusion that this is how it's going to be from now on - and let's face it, being honest, no matter how much better the car gets next year that's going to benefit Rosberg too - he'll have no hesitation in quitting.

If you write book about Michael, please don't. You know nothing about him.


#5741 oultondon

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:20

How long until he falls off his motorbike, injures his neck and walks away from F1?

#5742 ivand911

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:28

How long until he falls off his motorbike, injures his neck and walks away from F1?

I think you confuse things. It is working this way, he falls off his motorbike, injures his neck and he get in F1. :clap: Who else can do that?


#5743 Lifew12

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:41

If you write book about Michael, please don't. You know nothing about him.


I reckon I know as much as you, to be honest - possibly more, given I've interviewed the man on a number of occasions (and found him charming, intelligent and thoughtful).

I think, Ivan, you missed the point of my comment; what I'm saying is that Michael Schumacher is not going to be happy for long in a situation where he is not winning. He didn't come back to finish sixth or seventh and so on, nor did he come back to be beaten continually by his team mate; he came back to win. That's the measure of the man, and that's why he will quit if he feels that the glory days are over. He's not a fool. Winners, and Michael is one, get out when the winning stops.


#5744 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 10:14

How long until he falls off his motorbike, injures his neck and walks away from F1?

That would certainly be a simple and reputationally neutral was of exiting if that's what he wants to do. I don't know what he wants to do and a small part of me wants to see him come back in 2011 fighting, but that the same time I don't want to see him struggle around like he has this year.

It's a gamble isn't it?

#5745 ivand911

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 10:48

That would certainly be a simple and reputationally neutral was of exiting if that's what he wants to do. I don't know what he wants to do and a small part of me wants to see him come back in 2011 fighting, but that the same time I don't want to see him struggle around like he has this year.

It's a gamble isn't it?

When he struggle this year? When he have normal race ,he was OK. Like in Bahrain when he beat last WDC and Webber. In Spain he beat last WDC again, Massa, Kubica, Nico. There he finished 9 places infront of Nico , their biggest difference this year. I can say he struggle in China, Hungary and Italy. In other tracks where he have problem(crash, bad strategy) he just didn't have car that can get him back closer to the front.

#5746 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 11:24

I think you credit the man with much less intelligence than he has. If Michael Schumacher thinks that things are not going to get much better - I'm not saying he does, but if he does - then I've little dount his motivation for trundling around in the midfield will not be up to much. He's a winher, he wants to win, he doesn't want to bag a load of sixth, seventh, eighth places. He has better things to do in life. If he comes to the conclusion that this is how it's going to be from now on - and let's face it, being honest, no matter how much better the car gets next year that's going to benefit Rosberg too - he'll have no hesitation in quitting.

Would you agree in this case that if he choses to continue it's because he feels he still has what it takes?


I mean if at the end of the year he raises his hand and says sorry guys, it's too much for me etc it would be ok...but if he still says he wants to race then maybe he knows he can still do it and he knows why he isn't doing it at the moment.

#5747 ivand911

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 11:37

Would you agree in this case that if he choses to continue it's because he feels he still has what it takes?


I mean if at the end of the year he raises his hand and says sorry guys, it's too much for me etc it would be ok...but if he still says he wants to race then maybe he knows he can still do it and he knows why he isn't doing it at the moment.

I hope he will not do this:"he raises his hand and says sorry guys, it's too much for me". Because I plan to visit two GP next year. Better he stay where he is. :)


#5748 Lifew12

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 12:06

Would you agree in this case that if he choses to continue it's because he feels he still has what it takes?


I agree entirely. I can't see that he would continue otherwise.

#5749 Ivanoff

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 12:14

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#5750 Buttoneer

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 13:21

When he struggle this year?

Don't be silly.

I'm not saying he does have a problem with his neck, I'm saying it would be easy to use it as an excuse if he wanted to drop out after only one year.