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#5801 aditya-now

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:49

I'm confused here, it's not ok for MS to get "insider information" (in fact you "fear it") but it's ok for Peter Sauber to get "insider information"?

So what you're saying that it's ok for one team/person to have an advantage but not another team/person even though you request a "plain playing field in 2011"?

Seriously I'm confused, could you make your biased contradictions clearer for us English speakers please?


It is quite simple, Peter Sauber is certainly the underdog. And all that I have learned from you English speakers is that you have always a special spot in your heart for the underdog. Or is that only the American English speakers?

Michael Schumacher to me is not the underdog, and what you read from my lines is my fear that he might start another era of domination at the mature age of 42, if and when he gets tyres manufactured to his special needs.

So yes, you see me partial here - I wish some boost to Peter Sauber so he and his team can survive. I don´t wish Michael Schumacher such a special boost, lest we have another 2000 - 2004 coming our way. You may like another era of Schumacher domination, to me F1 was utterly boring in the years 2000 - 2004. A "plain playing field" is certainly not what those years were about, whereas, if the Sauber team gets a little better (or even is able to survive) in 2011 it means to me no distortion to a level starting grid.

Edited by aditya-now, 24 September 2010 - 11:52.


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#5802 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:54

It is quite simple, Peter Sauber is certainly the underdog. And all that I have learned from you English speakers is that you have always a special spot in your heart for the underdog. Or is that only the American English speakers?

Sorry, that doesn't cut it either because you have misunderstood the concept of 'level playing field' or the concept of an 'underdog'.

With additional information that others have no access to, there is no level playing field. If Sauber has this additional information which others do not have, they are not the underdog anymore.

#5803 baddog

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:14

heh that was revealing wasnt it? inequities are fine if they serve to punish the leaders, help the losers, and disadvantage people aditya doesnt like?

I think thats not an ideal situation ;)

#5804 ivand911

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:20

I also don't think NH is going to bring any really useful info to Sauber about the tyres. The tyres he has been using were their first iteration and there will have been many changes to the compounds and construction by the time the final tyres are issued.

It is OT, but I think NH did around 500-600 laps with Pirelli tyres. From this he for sure have good knowledge about their constructions and compounds. As I heard Pirelli think that their tyre construction is sorted and will focus on compounds mainly. And from this all I think NH can help very much in building of next year Sauber car. For me this was even their plan(after they learn about tyre test), to start tests(3 test) and after this they to take him in the team. I just don't know, how Pirelli and other teams accepted this? For me the driver who was doing tests have to be prohibited of joining F1 team before this year ends. Or before first official tyre test in Abu Dhabi.

Edited by ivand911, 24 September 2010 - 12:24.


#5805 aditya-now

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:24

heh that was revealing wasnt it? inequities are fine if they serve to punish the leaders, help the losers, and disadvantage people aditya doesnt like?

I think thats not an ideal situation ;)


You guys live in an ideal world. Wasn´t creating inequities what the FIA was doing for years? What Ferrari was doing for years? What Ross Brawn was doing last year with the double diffuser and the meeting he had in 2008 with all the teams, when only Toyota and Williams were in on the line that the DDD was okay, whereas McLaren, Ferrari and other teams thought it was not legal?

Isn´t finding the competitive edge in whichever way and thereby creating an inequity the very nature of the sport, what with various tyre deals of Schumacher in the past, the wing car of Colin Chapman, the fan car of Brabham-Alfa and on and on and on?

So well done to Peter Sauber for being clever enough to give Nick Heidfeld the ride, and thereby getting potential information on the Pirelli tyres that are not available to all and sundry.

Sauber did nothing else than what Schumacher, Brawn, Todt, Briatore and others have done all along - and not always in the gentlemanly way of Peter Sauber.
So kudos to the underdog Sauber, even if he may not gain much advantage from it - it was well thought out and not illegal what he did.

Also I am sure that Michael will not gain any information from Nick, the relations between the two are not in such good stead that there is any chance of Nick passing information....


#5806 Clatter

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:26

It is OT, but I think NH did around 500-600 laps with Pirelli tyres. From this he for sure have good knowledge about their constructions and compounds. As I heard Pirelli think that their tyre construction is sorted and will focus on compounds mainly. And from this all I think NH can help very much in building of next year Sauber car. For me this was even their plan(after they learn about tyre test), to start tests(3 test) and after this they to take him in the team. I just don't know, how Pirelli and other teams accepted this? For me the driver who was doing tests have to be prohibited of joining F1 team before this year ends. Or before first official tyre test in Abu Dhabi.


I don't believe he will be able to bring anything that will greatly (if at all) affect the design of the car. Had the teams not agreed on a standard weight distribution for next year then things might have been different.

#5807 ivand911

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:26

Also I am sure that Michael will not gain any information from Nick, the relations between the two are not in such good stead that there is any chance of Nick passing information....

Which was specially important for you.


#5808 baddog

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:27

Aditya, in spite of all that flapping around the last paragraph of your previous post is still there..

Edited by baddog, 24 September 2010 - 12:28.


#5809 aditya-now

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:27

With additional information that others have no access to, there is no level playing field.


So you are talking about Ross Brawn, the DDD and Jenson Button´s 2009 WDC, then?

Honda was surely the underdog, Brawn GP wasn´t. Strangely enough, Mercedes GP and Schumacher again seem to be the underdog.


#5810 Anssi

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:29

:lol: That was fun to read. Of course that's double standards. I didn't feel very well a few minutes ago but reading this discussion made me smile. Something good came out of it.

#5811 Lifew12

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:29

So well done to Peter Sauber for being clever enough to give Nick Heidfeld the ride, and thereby getting potential information on the Pirelli tyres that are not available to all and sundry.


You're being a bit silly. It doesn't take much to realise that the Pirelli tyres tested by Heidfeld were a development incarnation of what's to come; there won't be any information gain of any worth.

#5812 Clatter

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:30

So you are talking about Ross Brawn, the DDD and Jenson Button´s 2009 WDC, then?

Honda was surely the underdog, Brawn GP wasn´t. Strangely enough, Mercedes GP and Schumacher again seem to be the underdog.


Not sure how the DDD is in anyway relevant.


#5813 ivand911

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:31

:lol: That was fun to read. Of course that's double standards. I didn't feel very well a few minutes ago but reading this discussion made me smile. Something good came out of it.

We always have very fruitful discussions here. :wave:


#5814 Anssi

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:34

A good practice session from Michael Schumacher. Although he drove the most laps of all. But it would be great if he could stay up there in the other sessions too.

#5815 TURU

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:35

It is OT, but I think NH did around 500-600 laps with Pirelli tyres. From this he for sure have good knowledge about their constructions and compounds. As I heard Pirelli think that their tyre construction is sorted and will focus on compounds mainly. And from this all I think NH can help very much in building of next year Sauber car. For me this was even their plan(after they learn about tyre test), to start tests(3 test) and after this they to take him in the team. I just don't know, how Pirelli and other teams accepted this? For me the driver who was doing tests have to be prohibited of joining F1 team before this year ends.


ARRGH ..... As I've already said before, you wouldn't complain about Heidfeld providing 'secret data' to a team, had he returned to Mercedes instead of Sauber. So please, stop whining about it. Stop this hypocrisy ;)

Edited by TURU, 24 September 2010 - 12:37.


#5816 metz

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:36

It is OT, but I think NH did around 500-600 laps with Pirelli tyres. From this he for sure have good knowledge about their constructions and compounds. As I heard Pirelli think that their tyre construction is sorted and will focus on compounds mainly. And from this all I think NH can help very much in building of next year Sauber car. For me this was even their plan(after they learn about tyre test), to start tests(3 test) and after this they to take him in the team. I just don't know, how Pirelli and other teams accepted this? For me the driver who was doing tests have to be prohibited of joining F1 team before this year ends. Or before first official tyre test in Abu Dhabi.

The tyre testing at Pirelli had 4 phases
1...initial evaluation
2...shape and size
3...construction
4...compounds
Nick only participated in the first two evaluations. The critical ones are the last two.
All the teams will get the new tyres after the last race so they can test these on their cars. Two or 3 laps at that time will give any team more information than Heidfeld could bring at this stage.

#5817 aditya-now

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:46

Aditya, in spite of all that flapping around the last paragraph of your previous post is still there..


Why shouldn´t it be here? It is a matter of fact that Nick Heidfeld and Michael Schumacher don´t see eye to eye, so, why do you have a problem with mentioning the fact?

#5818 aditya-now

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:47

ARRGH ..... As I've already said before, you wouldn't complain about Heidfeld providing 'secret data' to a team, had he returned to Mercedes instead of Sauber. So please, stop whining about it. Stop this hypocrisy ;)


Talking about double standards and accusing others of having them... ;)


#5819 Clatter

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:48

Why shouldn´t it be here? It is a matter of fact that Nick Heidfeld and Michael Schumacher don´t see eye to eye, so, why do you have a problem with mentioning the fact?


Is it? And if that is the case why did you fear NH would pass info on to MS.?

Edited by Clatter, 24 September 2010 - 12:50.


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#5820 metz

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:52

It is a matter of fact that Nick Heidfeld and Michael Schumacher don´t see eye to eye, so, why do you have a problem with mentioning the fact?

I follow both drivers fairly closely and my impression is that they have nothing but respect for each other.
They have known each other since carting days and still participate in each other's charity events.
Even technically, they have a similar work ethic, set-up process and driving style.
I don't know where you get this notion from.

#5821 Lifew12

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:54

The tyre testing at Pirelli had 4 phases
1...initial evaluation
2...shape and size
3...construction
4...compounds
Nick only participated in the first two evaluations.


Mr Sauber - "So, Nick, Tell us about these Pirelli tyres...."

NH - " Well, they are rubber, and round, and black."


#5822 JPW

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:56

So well done to Peter Sauber for being clever enough to give Nick Heidfeld the ride, and thereby getting potential information on the Pirelli tyres that are not available to all and sundry.

Sauber did nothing else than what Schumacher, Brawn, Todt, Briatore and others have done all along - and not always in the gentlemanly way of Peter Sauber.
So kudos to the underdog Sauber, even if he may not gain much advantage from it - it was well thought out and not illegal what he did.

Also I am sure that Michael will not gain any information from Nick, the relations between the two are not in such good stead that there is any chance of Nick passing information....

Hihi double standards at it's finest :lol:

Anyway you must think Ross Brawn was born yesterday certainly part of Mercedes releasing Heidfeld of his contract was a solid debrief on everything he learned as a Pirelli test driver. If there was anything important to be learned in that early stage (and I doubt that) it would have been with Ross Brawn and big Schumi even before Peter Sauber.



#5823 aditya-now

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:56

Is it? And if that is the case why did you fear NH would pass info on to MS.?


Because of Nick´s allegiance to Mercedes and his hopes to land a seat there one day. I wonder how close his ties to Merc are at the moment. Anyway, this discussion is a bit academic, as Metz pointed out objectively, because the defining phase of tyre development is coming up only now. So relax... ;)


#5824 Lifew12

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 12:58

I wonder how close his ties to Merc are at the moment.


Not close at all. He was released from his contract.


#5825 ivand911

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:01

ARRGH ..... As I've already said before, you wouldn't complain about Heidfeld providing 'secret data' to a team, had he returned to Mercedes instead of Sauber. So please, stop whining about it. Stop this hypocrisy ;)

I don't know why you assume such things. If he did provide secret data , this will be secret and I wouldn't know?
But, here you talk about me and you are implying some things about me.


#5826 Lifew12

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:02

But, here you talk about me and you are implying some things about me.


be fair, Ivan, he's only referring to the fact you're a die hard, devoted Michael fan.

#5827 metz

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:02

Not close at all. He was released from his contract.

To be clear. He asked to be released and they agreed.
The slight complication was that Nick's contract had an "out" clause, should a drivers seat become available. The Pirelli gig was technically not a drive. But Haug made it clear that they did not want to stand in Nick's way.
The Pirelli contract had the same clause.

#5828 Clatter

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:03

Because of Nick´s allegiance to Mercedes and his hopes to land a seat there one day. I wonder how close his ties to Merc are at the moment. Anyway, this discussion is a bit academic, as Metz pointed out objectively, because the defining phase of tyre development is coming up only now. So relax...;)


In case you had missed it I had already said more or less the same thing, and that I don't believe he has any useful info to pass on. It's your comments we are trying to get to the bottom of.

I'm interested to hear about this known fact that they don't see eye to eye.

#5829 Lifew12

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:04

The slight complication was that Nick's contract had an "out" clause, should a drivers seat become available.


I would bet it had more than one 'out' clause, as is the norm with all such contracts these days!

#5830 Clatter

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:05

To be clear. He asked to be released and they agreed.
The slight complication was that Nick's contract had an "out" clause, should a drivers seat become available. The Pirelli gig was technically not a drive. But Haug made it clear that they did not want to stand in Nick's way.
The Pirelli contract had the same clause.


I think it's also pretty clear that Haug didn't have a seat to offer him.

#5831 TURU

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:05

I don't know why you assume such things. If he did provide secret data , this will be secret and I wouldn't know?
But, here you talk about me and you are implying some things about me.


My point was that if he returned to Mercedes after his Pirelli testing saga, You (and many others) would not complain about it, you would be perfectly happy with it.

#5832 ivand911

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:18

My point was that if he returned to Mercedes after his Pirelli testing saga, You (and many others) would not complain about it, you would be perfectly happy with it.

As I told you before, if he return in MGP on Michael place(because I don't see him returning for anything else) I would be far from happy. I am honestly interested by the team because Michael is there. :)


#5833 TURU

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 13:21

As I told you before, if he return in MGP on Michael place(because I don't see him returning for anything else) I would be far from happy. I am honestly interested by the team because Michael is there. :)


Well, you still don't understand what I meant so lets leave this for now.

#5834 Johnrambo

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 14:13

At this point in time I don't think it matters one bit one way or the other if MS knows about Pirelli's or not.

#5835 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 15:30

Next year is a clean sheet for everybody. Then Schumacher or his fans - like me - can't talk about being disadvantaged, lack of testing, age, 3 years out etc.

I'm genuinely looking forward to next year to see how Schumacher does. In the mean time, let's hope there are some big boxing matches to look forward to in order to pass the time :D

#5836 ivand911

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 15:48

He can talk about age, he isn't going to get any younger. :) I don't have complains now, will not have next year either. Not bad free practices today. Looking forward to every race. Williams look strong with new floor and FW.

Edited by ivand911, 24 September 2010 - 15:53.


#5837 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 16:18

So you are talking about Ross Brawn, the DDD and Jenson Button´s 2009 WDC, then?

Honda was surely the underdog, Brawn GP wasn´t. Strangely enough, Mercedes GP and Schumacher again seem to be the underdog.

Well, no.

Three teams had a DDD at the start of the year, but the Honda/Brawn had the best. Honda/Brawn was not an 'underdog' in the true sense of the word until later in the year when the lack of funds started to show itself because up to the start of the year at least, the team was resplendent in an enormous Japanese manufacturer budget. Brawn success was a different animal cliché altogether - a phoenix from the flames - but an underdog it was not.

Mercedes and Schumacher are not an underdog either, they are simply under-performing.

#5838 ivand911

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 19:57

Alonso interview with Bild: http://www.bild.de/B...eltmeister.html
"Bild: For Michael Schumacher Championship finish long time ago . Surprised?

Alonso: "I do not belong to the people who criticize him. I say only this: Michael is a legend, he has brought with Ferrari five titles. I don't have with Ferrari even one(title). Michael don't need to prove anything to anyone, and he will be faster next year. "

BILD: Für Michael Schumacher hat sich die WM längst erledigt. Überrascht?

Alonso: „Ich gehöre nicht zu den Leuten, die ihn kritisieren. Ich sage nur so viel: Michael ist eine Legende, er hat mit Ferrari fünf Titel geholt. Ich mit Ferrari noch nicht mal einen. Michael muss niemandem mehr was beweisen, und er wird nächstes Jahr schneller sein.“


Michael use new chassis(number 5) for this race.

Edited by ivand911, 25 September 2010 - 18:34.


#5839 arknor

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 21:23

Alonso interview with Bild:http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/motorsport/formel1/2010/09/24/fernando-alonso/vettel-wird-nicht-weltmeister.html
"Bild: For Michael Schumacher Championship finish long time ago . Surprised?

Alonso: "I do not belong to the people who criticize him. I say only this: Michael is a legend, he has brought with Ferrari five titles. I don't have with Ferrari even one(title). Michael don't need to prove anything to anyone, and he will be faster next year. "

BILD: Für Michael Schumacher hat sich die WM längst erledigt. Überrascht?

Alonso: „Ich gehöre nicht zu den Leuten, die ihn kritisieren. Ich sage nur so viel: Michael ist eine Legende, er hat mit Ferrari fünf Titel geholt. Ich mit Ferrari noch nicht mal einen. Michael muss niemandem mehr was beweisen, und er wird nächstes Jahr schneller sein.“


Michael use new chassis(number 5) for this race.

is it actually new or just new to him? i thought they were onto chasis 6 already?

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#5840 ivand911

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 05:53

is it actually new or just new to him? i thought they were onto chasis 6 already?

It is brand new, Nico have new chassis(number 4) from Germany.


#5841 ivand911

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 14:50

Michael in top 10. Ieee. He lose to much in S1.

#5842 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 15:11

Not spectacular, but it's good to be back in the top 10. Still, 0.3 to Rosberg.

#5843 Massa_f1

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 15:16

Michael in top 10. Ieee. He lose to much in S1.



He has struggled with that sector all weekend but is quick in s2 and s3

#5844 ivand911

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 15:18

He has struggled with that sector all weekend but is quick in s2 and s3

In the end he beat Nico in S1 and he lost in S2 and S3. :) I am happy with Michael performance, don't know if odd starting place is advantage here. Hope it is.

Edited by ivand911, 25 September 2010 - 15:26.


#5845 cheapracer

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 15:27

Just to point out to so many who screamed for MS's blood and to replace him/put Heidfeld into the car that Heidfeld has had these 2 days handed to him by a rookie by a far greater distance than Rosberg to MS.


#5846 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 15:52

Just to point out to so many who screamed for MS's blood and to replace him/put Heidfeld into the car that Heidfeld has had these 2 days handed to him by a rookie by a far greater distance than Rosberg to MS.

:rotfl:

1) Kobayashi is probably a better driver than Rosberg
2) Heidfeld has zero experience in that car, I am sure in a few race time he will do much better (you know, improvement). Schumacher on the other hand has been a failure in pretty much every race and has shown no signs of getting better, the only thing he has done that is worth remembering is trying to kill Barrichello.

#5847 vovelo

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 17:04

Michael Schumacher (9th, Q3 - 1m 46.702s)
"Our target was to get into Q3 which we achieved so I'm reasonably happy with our qualifying performance today. We tried various set-ups throughout the sessions and whilst they paid off at some points, they did not at others. But it was a lot of fun driving the track at this time of night and it really is a special experience. It is definitely different to drive in the artificial light but it doesn't compromise your performance at all. Starting from ninth place means starting from the presumably better side of the grid so the plan must be to try and gain some positions at the start and go from there."



#5848 aditya-now

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 21:18

Just to point out to so many who screamed for MS's blood and to replace him/put Heidfeld into the car that Heidfeld has had these 2 days handed to him by a rookie by a far greater distance than Rosberg to MS.


Probably good luck for Michael that he is not paired with Kobayashi. His 2010 trouncing would be even more extreme...


#5849 aditya-now

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 21:22

Michael Schumacher (9th, Q3 - 1m 46.702s)
"Our target was to get into Q3 which we achieved so I'm reasonably happy with our qualifying performance today. We tried various set-ups throughout the sessions and whilst they paid off at some points, they did not at others. But it was a lot of fun driving the track at this time of night and it really is a special experience. It is definitely different to drive in the artificial light but it doesn't compromise your performance at all. Starting from ninth place means starting from the presumably better side of the grid so the plan must be to try and gain some positions at the start and go from there."


I have to say Michael did well (for his 2010 standards) in Singapore, and it´s great to see he has regained some fun in driving. It must have been difficult for him to constantly grin away his lack of success, being the competitive animal he is. His race should be solid this time, like in Spain, Monaco and Spa.

#5850 F1Johnny

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 23:14

did he take that interview while running in 7th position with his teamate leading the race?


Meow. Saucer of milk for you?

Webber is leading the WDC and is much closer to his teammate than MS is. I know, I know Webber will never have 7 WDC and 91 race wins etc etc.

Let's keep it to present day though. Webber has a valid point which is clearly being borne out on the track.