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#5851 arknor

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 02:33

let's keep it to present shall we?

Vettel 1:45.457
Webber 1:45.977

gap 0.520

Rosberg 1:46.443
Schumacher 1:46.702

gap 0.259



So hmmm....who was closer to his team mate yesterday?

how many times did schumacher race here again?

he did like 50 laps mostly in the rain to get used to the circuit , obviously tried multiple setups etc, seemed to sit in the garage until the last minute in Q2 for some reason.

i dont think he did to bad , he will probably get a few places off the line

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#5852 F1Johnny

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 02:36

let's keep it to present shall we?

Vettel 1:45.457
Webber 1:45.977

gap 0.520

Rosberg 1:46.443
Schumacher 1:46.702

gap 0.259



So hmmm....who was closer to his team mate yesterday?


Are you really using 1 race to justify your position and ill conceived comparison? Do you really think that a Webber/Vettel is an appropriate comparison for the season with MS/NR?

If so, carry on.

#5853 SparkPlug

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 03:23

Probably good luck for Michael that he is not paired with Kobayashi. His 2010 trouncing would be even more extreme...

Kobayashi a better driver than Rosberg ?? How exactly ? Thats the first time I am reading that ****

#5854 Craven Morehead

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 05:06

:rotfl:

Kobayashi is probably a better driver than Rosberg


I seriously doubt it.

#5855 aditya-now

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 05:52

Kobayashi a better driver than Rosberg ?? How exactly ? Thats the first time I am reading that ****


Well, SparkPlug, we don´t have a real measure for Koba yet, but he seems to be "the real deal" according to Brundle and Coulthard. How good he is we will only find out when he is partnered with a driver of excellent pedigree. And, Kamui is learning quickly, having still driven less than 20 GP.

I´d expect Kobayashi to beat Schumi, to say the least.


#5856 metz

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 06:30

Just to point out to so many who screamed for MS's blood and to replace him/put Heidfeld into the car that Heidfeld has had these 2 days handed to him by a rookie by a far greater distance than Rosberg to MS.

Just so we are clear.
a) this is only Heidfeld's second day in the car.
b) this is Michael's 6th month racing plus 3 months testing.
c) all 3 FPs were actually close. NH said he was too cautious (didn't want to bin his first outing) in qualifying.

But you are right. Schumacher need more time.

#5857 metz

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 06:38

Kobayashi a better driver than Rosberg ?? How exactly ? Thats the first time I am reading that ****

Statisticly even.
Both Kobayashi and Rosberg have outperformed their last 2 teamates.
Most agree with the German media that Kamui is probably the best Japanes driver EVER in Formula 1.

#5858 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 06:49

http://img163.images...5e6c43848b2.jpg
http://photofile.ru/...0/163148036.jpg
http://photofile.ru/...0/163148051.jpg
http://photofile.ru/...0/163148138.jpg
http://i10.fastpic.r...6badc86554a.jpg


#5859 cheapracer

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:06

Just so we are clear.
a) this is only Heidfeld's second day in the car.
b) this is Michael's 6th month racing plus 3 months testing.



Yeah keep the excuses coming.......

Just so we are clear, Schumacher was never afforded that leeway from day one by the "nay" sayers here and he was closer to Rosberg than Heidfeld is to Koba in the first race.

Heidfeld has not have a 3 year layoff, he tested too including for Pirelli and Heidfeld may very well be sitting in his own cockpit from just half a year ago.

Comparatively he has proven immediately that he is not the choice over MS.


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#5860 SparkPlug

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:20

Well, SparkPlug, we don´t have a real measure for Koba yet, but he seems to be "the real deal" according to Brundle and Coulthard. How good he is we will only find out when he is partnered with a driver of excellent pedigree. And, Kamui is learning quickly, having still driven less than 20 GP.

I´d expect Kobayashi to beat Schumi, to say the least.

You specifically said Kobayashi would have beaten Schumacher by a larger margin. Which means you have already rated him higher than Rosberg. Now you say there is "no real measure" for him. I am sorry you're just talking off a tangent and typing rubbish. You suffer from these "red mists" more and more these days, completely clouding your judgement of everything related to F1 when Schumacher is involved.

Oh, and by the way lets all know why Mclaren would try and sign Rosberg especially when they had a better (and cheaper) option available in the form of Kobayashi. Maybe they're all just stupid ?

#5861 SparkPlug

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:22

Statisticly even.
Both Kobayashi and Rosberg have outperformed their last 2 teamates.
Most agree with the German media that Kamui is probably the best Japanes driver EVER in Formula 1.

So you do believe in statistics when it suits you. Interesting

Also, most believe that Karun Chandhok is the best Indian driver EVER in Formula 1. Does that make him better than Rosberg too ?

Edited by SparkPlug, 26 September 2010 - 07:24.


#5862 cheapracer

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:28

Most agree with the German media that Kamui is probably the best Japanes driver EVER in Formula 1.


Like saying the best Japanese F1 driver ever isn't really a biggie is it, like say the greatest American Cricketeer ever......

By the way, who do the German media say is the best F1 driver ever I wonder .... ? :lol:


#5863 metz

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:33

So you do believe in statistics when it suits you. Interesting

Also, most believe that Karun Chandhok is the best Indian driver EVER in Formula 1. Does that make him better than Rosberg too ?

As a Heidfeld fan, you should see how much flack I get from Kubica fans for quoting statistics... :yawnface:

and to answer your question...No.
although we have had many Japanes drivers in F1.
http://www.f1fanatic...drivers-part-1/
http://www.f1fanatic...drivers-part-2/

Edited by metz, 26 September 2010 - 07:47.


#5864 SparkPlug

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:38

As a Heidfeld fan, you should see how much flack I get from Kubica fans for quoting statistics... :yawnface:

and to answer your question...No.
although we have had many Japanes drivers in F1

Yes, many of great ability and talent. Lets name a few :
1. Shinji Nakano
2. Aguri Suzuki
3. Yuji Ide
4. Sakon Yamamoto
5. Torunasuke Takagi
6. Taki Inoue
7. Hideki Noda
8. Kazuki Nakajima

My, what an illustrious list. Kobayashi is surely better than all of these great legends of F1 racing. That must make him perhaps even better than Hamilton.

#5865 metz

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 07:52

That must make him perhaps even better than Hamilton.

Are you a child? :rolleyes:

The best of 17 is not bad, no matter how you belittle them.

#5866 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 08:06

According to WCC Michael is now better than 16 drivers, not bad as you would say. Lets focus on the race, I just hope Michael will successfully go through first corner. There is the danger area. I don't think that he will attack Nico today, when he have chance for 6th place in WCC. Only if Nico have very bad start he will pass him.

#5867 aditya-now

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 10:24

You specifically said Kobayashi would have beaten Schumacher by a larger margin. Which means you have already rated him higher than Rosberg. Now you say there is "no real measure" for him. I am sorry you're just talking off a tangent and typing rubbish. You suffer from these "red mists" more and more these days, completely clouding your judgement of everything related to F1 when Schumacher is involved.

Oh, and by the way lets all know why Mclaren would try and sign Rosberg especially when they had a better (and cheaper) option available in the form of Kobayashi. Maybe they're all just stupid ?


Thanks for your kind words, SparkPlug.

You are confusing two different messages:

1.) Subjectively I feel that Schumacher would be trounced even more comprehensively by Kobayashi than by Rosberg, so lucky Michael he is just teamed up with Nico.

2.) Objectively we have no real measure yet for Kamui, as he was not partnered with a 1A driver so far. That Brundle and Coulthard say "Kobayashi is the real deal" is also a subjective judgement.


Why did McLaren try to sign Rosberg (and then signed Button), why did thy not sign Kobayashi when he was available much cheaper?

Firstly, I think Rosberg fits the Mercedes portfolio much better than Kobayashi.

Secondly, Kobayashi had, at that time, just driven two races, which is too uncertain for a team like McLaren. After all, Kamui did not come out of McLaren´s own developement program like Lewis, who was a known quantity to them in 2006 and early 2007). Typically, a team like Sauber would snatch up such a driver - also an Alonso did not drive for a major team after two races.
Schumacher did (after already one race in 1991), thanks to Bernie´s intervention and Briatore´s vision.
It is also a testimonial to the fact that the early Michael was quite a force.

Fast cue forward 19 years to 2010: the irony seems to escape you, SparkPlug, that nowadays the discussion is: "who would Michael get a more comprehensive beating from, Nico or Kamui?". What the world has come to.....;)

Edited by aditya-now, 26 September 2010 - 10:45.


#5868 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 10:39

Statisticly even.
Both Kobayashi and Rosberg have outperformed their last 2 teamates.
Most agree with the German media that Kamui is probably the best Japanes driver EVER in Formula 1.



Hahaha, just like Takuma Sato was? Let's see how well he does when the pressure is really on him in a top flight team fighting for consistent points/podium finishes. History hasn't been kind to Japanese F1 drivers.

By the way, I wonder who the best driver in F1 history ever is according to German media? :D

Is it the 7 WDC or the 41 year old who has had three years out and is being beaten by only 3 tenths by his younger team mate?

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 26 September 2010 - 10:42.


#5869 aditya-now

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 11:00

By the way, I wonder who the best driver in F1 history ever is according to German media? :D


Ayrton Senna.

Lately even the ever-populistic and ever-pro-German BILD Zeitung determined Senna to be the best of all time, ahead of Michael Schumacher.


#5870 DarthRonzo

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 11:08

Yes, many of great ability and talent. Lets name a few :

1. Shinji Nakano
2. Aguri Suzuki
3. Yuji Ide
4. Sakon Yamamoto
5. Torunasuke Takagi
6. Taki Inoue
7. Hideki Noda
8. Kazuki Nakajima

9. Ukio Katayama
10.Takuma Sato

11. Honorable mention to **King Hiro Matsushita at Indy.



#5871 aditya-now

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 11:18

According to WCC Michael is now better than 16 drivers, not bad as you would say. Lets focus on the race, I just hope Michael will successfully go through first corner. There is the danger area. I don't think that he will attack Nico today, when he have chance for 6th place in WCC. Only if Nico have very bad start he will pass him.


Yes, let´s take consolation in the fact that 16 drivers are behind Michael in the standings and only 8 ahead of him. Not bad.

Then again, thinking about Michael as the 9th strongest force in F1 - what has this world come to?


#5872 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 11:23

Yes, let´s take consolation in the fact that 16 drivers are behind Michael in the standings and only 8 ahead of him. Not bad.

Then again, thinking about Michael as the 9th strongest force in F1 - what has this world come to?

Not bad considering his car is 5th-6th best in the moment.

#5873 aditya-now

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 13:07

Like saying the best Japanese F1 driver ever isn't really a biggie is it, like say the greatest American Cricketeer ever......

By the way, who do the German media say is the best F1 driver ever I wonder .... ? :lol:



You are right, Kobayashi might not be a "biggie", as you claim, but he is easily good enough for Schumacher....

Kobayashi giving Schumacher some dose of his own medicine.... :lol:

Now you know why I said that Michael is lucky not to be paired with Kamui, he definitely has less respect of Michael than Nico Rosberg and he is good enough to drive the wheels off Michael in an inferior Sauber. :lol:

Edited by aditya-now, 26 September 2010 - 13:10.


#5874 vovelo

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:22

Bad race for Michael .
I wait commets from him and the team about his bad race pace (before his collision with Kobayashi)

#5875 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:25

Bad race for Michael .
I wait commets from him and the team about his bad race pace (before his collision with Kobayashi)


Something must have happened in his stints on softs : either he completely destroyed the tires in a few laps or he had some damage (maybe FW).

#5876 Urawa

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:27

Nothing new. It´s not the first time this year that his pace drops immediately after a SC phase.

#5877 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:41

He was losing a second a lap, if I'm not mistaken, in the later part of the soft stint - against Rosberg.

#5878 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:42

When he drive with hard tyres? Last stint was with soft, bur when he broke FW I think he was again with softs? Or it is because his rim colour is same like soft tyres?

Edited by ivand911, 26 September 2010 - 14:43.


#5879 vovelo

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:44

He was losing a second a lap, if I'm not mistaken, in the later part of the soft stint - against Rosberg.

Probably his car has been damaged already ( remember several incidents with him during this race ? )

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#5880 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:44

Now that I see the times, he was considerably faster than Rosberg after the 2nd pit-stop. Did he change tires?

#5881 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:46

He was losing a second a lap, if I'm not mistaken, in the later part of the soft stint - against Rosberg.


He was losing two seconds in the first stint. He was pushing BArri hard and then his pace dropped immensely. He might have destroyed the tires in trying to overtake Barri.

#5882 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:47

Now that I see the times, he was considerably faster than Rosberg after the 2nd pit-stop. Did he change tires?

I think yes, he put softs.
http://www.formula1....stest_laps.html
http://www.formula1....op_summary.html
First stop slower 2,5sec from Nico, this is why he get behind Hidfeld.

Edited by ivand911, 26 September 2010 - 14:52.


#5883 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:49

He was losing two seconds in the first stint. He was pushing BArri hard and then his pace dropped immensely. He might have destroyed the tires in trying to overtake Barri.

After Webber overtake him, he lost speed, maybe he made flat spot on the tyres?


#5884 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 14:50

Did he change tires?


The TV images only cut to the moment the nose change ended. So i don't know if he changed tires again.

#5885 Mastah

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:05

Eddie Jordan: "I would sack Michael now, he's clearly not up to the job".

#5886 Collective

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:15

What I see is that Rosberg is able to extract the tenths of second needed to be ahead of the Williams, Force India and Sauber cars at all times, while Schumi is always between them getting in trouble. His pace after Webber passed him was beyond ridiculous.

#5887 Massa_f1

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:17

:mad:

Eddie Jordan: "I would sack Michael now, he's clearly not up to the job".



I would sackt EJ on the spot if i was the BBC

#5888 metz

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:19

Eddie Jordan: "I would sack Michael now, he's clearly not up to the job".

:eek: This from the guy that took credit for engineering his comeback?
Eddie just likes to be quoted.

#5889 man

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:19

Unfortunately from Mercedes GP perspective, another pathetic performance from M Schumacher today.

He failed to do his team and car justice yet again.

Still, at least he can sell hats and tee-shirts. ;-)

Edited by man, 26 September 2010 - 15:20.


#5890 Amrl

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:20

"Just being a mediocre driver has never been my ambition. That's not my style." - Michael Schumacher

#5891 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:21

What I see is that Rosberg is able to extract the tenths of second needed to be ahead of the Williams, Force India and Sauber cars at all times, while Schumi is always between them getting in trouble. His pace after Webber passed him was beyond ridiculous.

But, he was faster than Nico in last stint? Why, and why he was slow after Webber overtake him?
http://www.fia.com/e...ace-history.pdf


#5892 Massa_f1

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:24

Unfortunately from Mercedes GP perspective, another pathetic performance from M Schumacher today.

He failed to do his team and car justice yet again.

Still, at least he can sell hats and tee-shirts. ;-)



How is getting pushed into the wall by Koba his fault he would of eased a few points today if it wasent for that.

#5893 iakhtar

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:24

But, he was faster than Nico in last stint? Why, and why he was slow after Webber overtake him?
http://www.fia.com/e...ace-history.pdf


he was faster when he had fresh tyres slower when rears were gone basically

#5894 topical

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:25

Eddie Jordan: "I would sack Michael now, he's clearly not up to the job".


:rotfl: I think Eddie will never get over losing MS to Benetton after one race in 1991.
Still, it is clear that MS is only retaining his seat for marketing reasons and/or to save face for Brawn and Haug, who seemed so sure early in the season that we would 'soon' see the real Michael. Rosberg is owning him almost as much as Kubica is owning Petrov.

By the way, where's that moron Wili Weber these days? Last year he told us that if MS got in the Ferrari he would easily be 0.3.-0.5 faster than Kimi or Massa, and before this season started informed us that MS was still the best and fittest driver on the grid and could race till he was 50 no problem. Haven't heard much from him since then...

#5895 topical

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:27

"Just being a mediocre driver has never been my ambition. That's not my style." - Michael Schumacher


Sometimes the reality does not quite measure up to our ambitions, Michael. ;)

#5896 iakhtar

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:28

:rotfl: I think Eddie will never get over losing MS to Benetton after one race in 1991.
Still, it is clear that MS is only retaining his seat for marketing reasons and/or to save face for Brawn and Haug, who seemed so sure early in the season that we would 'soon' see the real Michael. Rosberg is owning him almost as much as Kubica is owning Petrov.

By the way, where's that moron Wili Weber these days? Last year he told us that if MS got in the Ferrari he would easily be 0.3.-0.5 faster than Kimi or Massa, and before this season started informed us that MS was still the best and fittest driver on the grid and could race till he was 50 no problem. Haven't heard much from him since then...


To be fair WW would have been a moron if he didn't make those claims, it's his job to oversell.

#5897 ivand911

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:31

he was faster when he had fresh tyres slower when rears were gone basically

Maybe the tyres he start race were used more in Qualy? And they finished quickly? Or when he tried to pass Bari he destroy them. And his tyres was not much fresher than Nico's on last stint?

Edited by ivand911, 26 September 2010 - 15:33.


#5898 FBJim

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:34

Just to point out to so many who screamed for MS's blood and to replace him/put Heidfeld into the car that Heidfeld has had these 2 days handed to him by a rookie by a far greater distance than Rosberg to MS.

hahahaha, Schumacher fans, unable to compare his results favorably with his teammates, are now comparing them to another driver in a much worse car. Good on yall.

#5899 iakhtar

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:40

Maybe the tyres he start race were used more in Qualy? And they finished quickly? Or when he tried to pass Bari he destroy them.


It's a combination of the car and his driving style that's causing his tyre issues, all season he has had a rear tyre wear/traction problem, Mercedes has tried to counter this with extreme setups which has seemingly made things worse. It's something that cannot be adapted to when the setup window is so compromised. The other alternative would be to completely change his driving style to be more like NR which is probably far easier said than done. All of these issues aside there's also no way to tell how much speed he has lost from his previous career, adding all these factors together makes for one miserable season in terms of performance.

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#5900 aditya-now

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 15:56

Something must have happened in his stints on softs : either he completely destroyed the tires in a few laps or he had some damage (maybe FW).


Ah, the looking for excuses has already started.


Probably his car has been damaged already ( remember several incidents with him during this race ? )


And surely the incidents were entirely not Michael´s fault - it seems people love to crash into him left and right.


"Just being a mediocre driver has never been my ambition. That's not my style." - Michael Schumacher


I wonder when Michael will start staying true to this statement. "Living in truth" by Vaclav Havel is recommended reading.

And sorry, to all the guys here on the BB who love Michael and adore him - I am a known critic and you will have me congratulate him first, if and when he wins a race - it will be one of the most glorious moments in the sport, with the whole paddock cheering (remember Rubens first win in 2009 after all those years....)

On the other hand, with races like this he just confirms what myself, man and a few others have been saying all along - so let´s hope Michael gives us something to cheer in 2011 and not more of the same.
So please bear with us critics when we call a spade a spade.