Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20771 replies to this topic

#5951 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,122 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:36

"Well he could be doing better on track but our car sales have gone through the roof so he stays".

The fact that this thread keeps topping the forum because of what he did 3 years before should tell you theres more to F1 than who crosses the line first, seen how many people subscribe to Bruno Senna's thread in comparison for example?

The "Robert Kubica" thread has 1/10th the subscription for example and Kubica is clearly doing a better job presently.


Well I seriously doubt he has had any impact on car sales, but it's quite possible that some sponsors have come in because of his return. But I still believe if he were a rookie that there would be far more calling for him to be sacked.

Advertisement

#5952 marchi-91

marchi-91
  • Member

  • 440 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:38

Its quite simple. At these tracks he's over driving the car to get some performance from it and it happens his race pace. You can't setup an understeering developed car and throw a shit load of oversteer at it and expect it to be fantastic. Rosberg can adapt because his style is not so aggressive.




#5953 arknor

arknor
  • Member

  • 2,298 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:44

Michael got an absolute roasting on the red button (BBC) forum yesterday. Man, even I thought they were a bit harsh.

eddie jordan was a bit over the top lol, you would think its eddie jordans legacy.... oh wait aparently he was the one that discovered MSC when he handed over his bg fat cheque and paid for a drive.

jake just seems to jump on whatever bandwagon he thinks the english fans wants to hear...

martin is the only one who tries to give a real opinion but sometimes he seems biased aswell, hes very harsh if schumacher makes any mistakes but webber etc can plow into people , hamilton can cut people off and leave them with no room to go or destroy his race and he never says anything.

#5954 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 10:01

Which equates to..... he lacks the talent to set-up the car and drive it in a manner that does his machinary justice.

He just aint good enough....Not by a long way ;-)


Stop saying such a stupid thing like one loos his talent it is imposible to loos the talent etiher you have it or you do not have it. Only talent will not bring you the WDC winn do you also know that. The talent will only bring driver to F1 competition. Each driver in F1 grid is talented but there can only be one champion. There are a lot of factors whic has the influence on the driver abilities and one of those factors is also talent. You would be right to say that Schumacher lost speed and it is not good enoug in comparison to Rosberg evrithing else is youst trolling.

Edited by slaveceru, 27 September 2010 - 10:11.


#5955 tormave

tormave
  • Member

  • 1,028 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 27 September 2010 - 10:06

Brundle's assessment of Schu's position seemed quite credible; Wait till February, try out the new tyres, check out the new car and if all seems good, stay. If it doesn't look promising, bow out.

Agree. I would extend it a bit and have MS try to race the first European races next year. If he continues to be utterly dominated by Rosberg I doubt he will find the motivation to keep showing up in races and have reporters every time ask how long he plans to continue humiliating himself. MS isn't catching Nico, he's falling back further and seems to be at a total loss about how to first setup the car and then drive it for optimum performance over a longer stint.

I saw an MS interview of Michael on Star Sports (Singapore). They asked if he was planning on coming back next year. MS gave the same answer I had read from an Autosport interview earlier, word for word. He tried to look relaxed, but managed an expression of a deer caught in the headlights, trying to smile.

#5956 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 10:26

I think Michael will stay next year, because he is greatly involved in the building of the next year car. He will want to try it.
About deer expression that a lot of people mentioned here, I believe I see such on Lewis face too after last two races. And on the other faces too. What this mean?

Edited by ivand911, 27 September 2010 - 10:27.


#5957 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:01

it is imposible to loos the talent


Is it? So every driver who was ever talented remains so for eternity?

#5958 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:13

Is it? So every driver who was ever talented remains so for eternity?

Yes simply as that. You are born with talent and you die with the same talent it does not get bigger or smaller only other things are changing. In the top level of competition as F1 racing is talent of the driver is an obscure thing.

#5959 Hacklerf

Hacklerf
  • Member

  • 2,336 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:15

I think many people forget that Nico is a very good driver himself

Advertisement

#5960 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,122 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:20

Yes simply as that. You are born with talent and you die with the same talent it does not get bigger or smaller only other things are changing. In the top level of competition as F1 racing is talent of the driver is an obscure thing.


If that were true then top sportsmen would never retire. Like it or not as you get older you do get slower, your reactions do diminish, you don't perform at the same level as when you were younger. It's a fact of life that time catches up with you, and three years out of racing won't help the situation.


#5961 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:32

If that were true then top sportsmen would never retire. Like it or not as you get older you do get slower, your reactions do diminish, you don't perform at the same level as when you were younger. It's a fact of life that time catches up with you, and three years out of racing won't help the situation.

Age has nothing to do with talent.

#5962 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:34

I think many people forget that Nico is a very good driver himself

No they don't forget. It work this way they say he is not good driver(Nico), then Michael is beaten by not good driver. Then he is not good driver(rubbish). For me Nico is most consistent driver this year, don't recall any mistake of him. If he was in RBR he could lead by now with 60-70 points. RBR team is let down by their drivers.


#5963 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,122 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 September 2010 - 11:35

Age has nothing to do with talent.


Talent is just a skill and often requires practise to maintain. Lack of practise and age does diminish that skill.


#5964 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:14

Talent is just a skill and often requires practise to maintain. Lack of practise and age does diminish that skill.

Talent is some sort of ability and not a skill. You need a talent or a lot of training to develop a particularly skill. Talent is something that is genetically imprinted into our DNA so you can not loose it.

Edited by slaveceru, 27 September 2010 - 12:19.


#5965 man

man
  • Member

  • 1,302 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:29

Talent is some sort of ability and not a skill. You need a talent or a lot of training to develop a particularly skill. Talent is something that is genetically imprinted into our DNA so you can not loose it.


In that case M Schumacher simply doesn't have the talent to beat Rosberg. Better?

#5966 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,122 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:32

Talent is some sort of ability and not a skill. You need a talent or a lot of training to develop a particularly skill. Talent is something that is genetically imprinted into our DNA so you can not loose it.


So has MS simply misplaced it at the moment?


#5967 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:35

Well I seriously doubt he has had any impact on car sales,


You have got to be joking.

Case study for you - Nike.


Talent is just a skill and often requires practise to maintain. Lack of practise and age does diminish that skill.


Indeed. though some seem to have a better head start initially with talent in certain areas/sports.

Edited by cheapracer, 27 September 2010 - 12:37.


#5968 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 27 September 2010 - 12:44

MS isn't catching Nico, he's falling back further and seems to be at a total loss about how to first setup the car and then drive it for optimum performance over a longer stint.


Totally disagree, overall all drivers have moved forward and kept a fairly even status quo throughout the year. Amazing how one race determines season trends for you, you seem to forget that Kaimu ran into his side and he pitted.

Who says he isn't now developing/testing the car for next year? Wouldn't you if you were in his shoes?


#5969 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 27 September 2010 - 13:14

Regarding talent

Mike Tyson said "I knew how to do everything, I saw all the punches coming but I just couldn't get out of the way" (on his defeat to Kevin McBride, June 2005).

The way he hit people, the way he set up punches, the way he hit the speed bag all indicated that the talent was still there, until he met his match.

The talent was there, the ability to exercise it simply wasn't.

I see a similar scenario with Schumacher v Rosberg. In his prime, Schumacher would have demoralised Rosberg in my opinion, now it's the other way around. The demons are eating away at him and he is too stubborn to give up. He needs to be vindicated one more time (with a victory) for all the critics to say "he was good after all"

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 27 September 2010 - 13:17.


#5970 Boing 2

Boing 2
  • Member

  • 2,700 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 27 September 2010 - 13:44

Talent is some sort of ability and not a skill. You need a talent or a lot of training to develop a particularly skill. Talent is something that is genetically imprinted into our DNA so you can not loose it.



totally disagree, there is no way the ability to kick a ball or drive a car is part of DNA which is millions of years old. Senna was the greatest wet weather driver of his generation yet he himself admitted he was destroyed in the wet initially but went out every time it rained and practiced like hell until he mastered it. Ability is down to confidence, intelligence, hunger and practice, not DNA.

#5971 arknor

arknor
  • Member

  • 2,298 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 14:17

Regarding talent

Mike Tyson said "I knew how to do everything, I saw all the punches coming but I just couldn't get out of the way" (on his defeat to Kevin McBride, June 2005).

The way he hit people, the way he set up punches, the way he hit the speed bag all indicated that the talent was still there, until he met his match.

The talent was there, the ability to exercise it simply wasn't.

I see a similar scenario with Schumacher v Rosberg. In his prime, Schumacher would have demoralised Rosberg in my opinion, now it's the other way around. The demons are eating away at him and he is too stubborn to give up. He needs to be vindicated one more time (with a victory) for all the critics to say "he was good after all"

theres a big difference between boxing and motor racing...

you cant even compare the to tyson was obviously to slow , probably nowhere near as physicaly fit etc and thats what counts in boxing.

driving is different you dont lose the natural feel for the car and the six sense that all great racing drivers have, we all know his reaction times cant have changed either hes been probably the best starter this year when it comes to making places of the grid

#5972 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 27 September 2010 - 14:26

theres a big difference between boxing and motor racing...

you cant even compare the to tyson was obviously to slow , probably nowhere near as physicaly fit etc and thats what counts in boxing.

driving is different you dont lose the natural feel for the car and the six sense that all great racing drivers have, we all know his reaction times cant have changed either hes been probably the best starter this year when it comes to making places of the grid


I agree. We saw that his reflexes were still there when he almost bottomed out at Eau Rouge in FP1 and when others spun in the qualifying sessions.

I'd say that his instincts have been dulled rather been eroded completely.

#5973 sosidge

sosidge
  • Member

  • 1,713 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 15:06

theres a big difference between boxing and motor racing...

you cant even compare the to tyson was obviously to slow , probably nowhere near as physicaly fit etc and thats what counts in boxing.

driving is different you dont lose the natural feel for the car and the six sense that all great racing drivers have, we all know his reaction times cant have changed either hes been probably the best starter this year when it comes to making places of the grid


You DO lose the physical responses. F1 is a physical sport, and there are very few elite sportsmen who compete beyond their mid-30s. Schumacher is 41.

I don't doubt that Schumacher still has the talents of old, but his body is no longer capable of applying them to the same degree.

#5974 tormave

tormave
  • Member

  • 1,028 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 27 September 2010 - 15:15

Totally disagree, overall all drivers have moved forward and kept a fairly even status quo throughout the year. Amazing how one race determines season trends for you, you seem to forget that Kaimu ran into his side and he pitted.

Who says he isn't now developing/testing the car for next year? Wouldn't you if you were in his shoes?

There were a few races in the summer where MS was at least on par with Rosberg's pace. Yesterday, apart from the end when he had fresh option tyres, he was .5 to 1.5 secs slower than Nico. The lap is long in Singapore, but that's an still a freaking eternity. In the laps between the 1st safety car period and the MGP pit stops Nico pulled 23 secs away - same car, same fuel load, same tyres. The trend curve has MS falling further back from Nico's pace, not catching up.

There are two things that will be different next year: the MGP 2011 car and the Pirelli tyres. MS has access to neither at the moment. What can he "test" now that could make an iota of difference in 2011? A new drinks delivery system?

#5975 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,447 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 27 September 2010 - 15:41

I saw an MS interview of Michael on Star Sports (Singapore). They asked if he was planning on coming back next year. MS gave the same answer I had read from an Autosport interview earlier, word for word. He tried to look relaxed, but managed an expression of a deer caught in the headlights, trying to smile.


It is exactly that expression that tells the whole story - the smile that isn´t a smile. He is not a good actor, rather he looks like a clown, you see the sadness behind the facade. I have been criticized for the clown analogy, but I stay with that analogy, as it is true and symbolic of the story that is Michael Schumacher in 2010.

That he is not a good actor we have seen when he was lying (Monaco 2006, anyone?), so nothing new there.

The only question - how else should he look like?

Should he look downcast, desperate? Then people would immediately start writing him off. "He has given up", they would say, "he is not even believing in himself anymore". He can not look triumphant either, so at least the arrogance that used to be in his expression is gone. Not that he starts to show true humility or kindness as a human being like Trulli, that would not be Michael....

So the best he can do is to try to smile it all away (behavioral psychology states that a smile in such circumstances is usually a sign of insecurity), thus not showing anything negative or desperate and still keeping to a certain degree the smile that constitutes a winner´s psychology. Only that you can see behind that smile, and it looks like a frightened deer expecting the impact. What if 2011 turns out worse or as bad as 2010? How will he save his face then?

This is not to take anything away from his historic record, Michael did not return to the sport to prove his historic record. He returned because he wanted to show that he can still do it now. Maybe the fact that he was basically ousted by Montezemolo in 2006 plays a role in this - Schumacher wants to demonstrate:"I still have what it takes, and I don´t need Ferrari for it!"

So let´s look at the positive version then, the 2011 Mercedes suits Michael´s driving style to a degree that he will beat Nico in it. Then he has proven the point that he still has it and he can do it anywhere, not needing Ferrari for it.

Like I said from the very beginning of his comeback, I´d be happy if he wins one GP, then it is mission accomplished, he is still a winner. If he can really go and mount a championship campaign against the formidable drivers of today? I doubt it.




#5976 Callisto

Callisto
  • Member

  • 2,788 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 27 September 2010 - 15:45

to have a talent/skill requires practice,and lots of it,DextrahydraNuclueicAcid has nothing to do with skill/talent

#5977 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,616 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 15:57

driving is different you dont lose the natural feel for the car and the six sense that all great racing drivers have, we all know his reaction times cant have changed either hes been probably the best starter this year when it comes to making places of the grid


You are wrong. Reaction times slow down, everything starts to slow down. Schumacher himself has said it just a few weeks ago. A 41 year old will never be as sharp and alert as a 25 year old.

#5978 Johnrambo

Johnrambo
  • Member

  • 940 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 27 September 2010 - 16:15

He needs to be vindicated one more time (with a victory) for all the critics to say "he was good after all"


I doubt in the end Mercedes will view this as romantically as you otherwise MS is still racing when we are eating Soylent Green.

#5979 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 27 September 2010 - 16:40

I doubt in the end Mercedes will view this as romantically as you otherwise MS is still racing when we are eating Soylent Green.


Perhaps, but I still think he needs another full year to see whether he can do it or not. It is clear that Rosberg will beat him black and blue this year in the current car. I'm not going to make any more excuses for the guy anymore so I won't defend him.

However, I still maintain that he needs one more go. I also have a feeling that if Schumacher was fired, Brawn would quickly follow suit willingly.

Advertisement

#5980 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 11,985 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 27 September 2010 - 18:32

Wow, Singapore was definitely Schumachers worst race of the season.

Worse than China where he was eaten alive by the likes of Petrov in the rain.

Worse than Hungary where he nearly killed Rubens.

Worse even than Canada where he was just awful after he jumped across the grass with Kubica.

Please, Michael, retire. The way he ploughed into Heidfeld like a mediocre GP2 driver after Nick put some manners on him was embarassing.

Eddie Jordan is actually right, if his name wasn't Schumacher, he'd been sacked.

Edited by Disgrace, 27 September 2010 - 18:33.


#5981 Frans

Frans
  • Member

  • 7,701 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 27 September 2010 - 19:38

shall we make a special donation fund to let Michael stay for another season and get roasted yet another season/ ? Am sure many drivers will win from him, even more than in 2010!

I will DONATE!!! :rotfl:

#5982 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 27 September 2010 - 21:43

I didn't jump straight in after the race in Singapore because I only got to see a cut down 90 minute highlights package and I wanted to see what everyone else here thought.

That was as comprehensive a pasting that a driver has had from his teammate as I have seen. The first stint was as though they were on different compound tyres Michael was so slow. And he had clear enough air for most of it. I think it should also be obvious that Nico is pretty quick and consistent, how quick remains to be seen but he will not be seriously challenged by a guy as past it and slow as Michael is in 2010. And this is an important factor for Brawn and co in looking at next year, if Nico is to extract every last ounce of speed he needs a better benchmark.

I know, the defenders will now come out and say Michael needs another season , another car, different tyres. If that were the case in his earlier career (when he was considered able to extract speed out of a dog) he would have had no reputation as some kind of miracle driver. Today maybe we have to choose between (a) MS is all washed up, a has-been at 41 or (b) overrated champion who was part of 2 superteams who both managed to gain an "unfair advantage". Benetton were certainly suspect in areas like illegal TC and Ferrari had special political assistance and other stuff.

None of this is to say that MS wasn't an exceptional driver, to me he definitely was, as well as a reason to renew my interest in F1 after the ugly Senna/Prost feud. Some of his drives were right off the top shelf, I don't expect a repeat this year or next. If a return to greatness isn't on the agenda I don't see a good reason to continue with this sad display. Michael needs to be quietly taken aside for a chat.

The fan club display an extraordinary resilience to reality. Some even say they don't find his results particularly disappointing - they are either lying or have extremely low expectations. To have about one third the WDC points as your teammate is embarassing, there are no major factors to mitigate why his results are so poor. Can't we just put this miserable comeback to bed as quickly and quietly as possible?

#5983 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,447 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:33

That was as comprehensive a pasting that a driver has had from his teammate as I have seen. The first stint was as though they were on different compound tyres Michael was so slow. And he had clear enough air for most of it. I think it should also be obvious that Nico is pretty quick and consistent, how quick remains to be seen but he will not be seriously challenged by a guy as past it and slow as Michael is in 2010. And this is an important factor for Brawn and co in looking at next year, if Nico is to extract every last ounce of speed he needs a better benchmark.....


The fan club display an extraordinary resilience to reality. Some even say they don't find his results particularly disappointing - they are either lying or have extremely low expectations. To have about one third the WDC points as your teammate is embarassing, there are no major factors to mitigate why his results are so poor. Can't we just put this miserable comeback to bed as quickly and quietly as possible?


Nico is rated currently as fifth best driver on the grid after Kubica, Alonso, Webber and Hamilton in the "Top Seven Drivers" thread - so he definitely has profited from being paired with Schumacher. Either Nico is very good or Michael has become very bad.

Concerning the fan club´s blindness to reality: I had to listen to "for me it is enough to see Michael driving on the track" odé's - the veneration for Michael goes through the roof even when he shows nothing at all.
Maybe he fits the category of driver that Brundle referred to (on the example of Alonso): "He is a driver you cannot love, but a driver that has to be admired."

So one thing is for sure - the fans admire him, no matter what Michael's showing.


#5984 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,447 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 28 September 2010 - 07:43

So one thing is for sure - the fans admire him, no matter what Michael's showing.


Concerning Michael's showing:

Christian Klien returned to F1 after 3 years and 14 races. He tested 40 laps at the beginning of the 2010 season, then nil. Yet he qualified nearly a second ahead of Senna, also putting in a proper showing in the race. By contrast, Michael is behind his teammate after 15 races run.

So we cannot blame a break from driving GPs for more than three years the reason for Schumacher's poor showing. Also Klien is not used to the new cars, but obviously he knows how to adapt. This highlights once more the fact that in his successful days Schumacher had cars, tyres and team-situations tailor-made for him. Now that this is not the case it is hard for Michael to adapt. Klien, on the other hand, never had this advantage and had to learn to adapt, and to adapt quickly. Which is what he duly did.


#5985 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,616 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:31

An interesting piece from Mark Hughes about Schumacher's decline. I get a bit sceptical when a journalist starts to go into too much detail about the way drivers take apexes and so on - remind me of the garbage Peter Windsor used to write. But still, there may be validity to it:
Schumacher

#5986 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,817 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:46

he just describes the same thing that michael has said..
the way he drove the ferrari and how he drives the mercedes now..very very different.
i don't know why people trust so little what michael says.

the other part...he says that
1) ms lack of speed is because he's lost the coordination-balance feel
2) ms has actually gone backwards performance wise

well 2) implies that 1) got worse even over this season...which is ridiculous.

watching the car in singapore showed (again) what he keeps trying on setup....in trying to make the care point where he wants he ends up with a rear extremely unbalanced (see his mistake when passed by webber) and he also chews the rear tyres pretty quickly.

accepting that he does know what a car should behave like but he keeps screwing these setups just shows how much of a struggle it is to find the balance.

also, his race is described as clumsy, yet this year alone he has actually crashed/spun in a race. He had to defend very hard a few times, had some "touches" like canada and singapore but those are racing incidents. he hasn't actually spun it by himself in a race, hit a barrier or something.

#5987 stuck-in-first-gear

stuck-in-first-gear
  • Member

  • 1,875 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:55

Concerning Michael's showing:

Christian Klien returned to F1 after 3 years and 14 races. He tested 40 laps at the beginning of the 2010 season, then nil. Yet he qualified nearly a second ahead of Senna, also putting in a proper showing in the race. By contrast, Michael is behind his teammate after 15 races run.

So we cannot blame a break from driving GPs for more than three years the reason for Schumacher's poor showing. Also Klien is not used to the new cars, but obviously he knows how to adapt. This highlights once more the fact that in his successful days Schumacher had cars, tyres and team-situations tailor-made for him. Now that this is not the case it is hard for Michael to adapt. Klien, on the other hand, never had this advantage and had to learn to adapt, and to adapt quickly. Which is what he duly did.


How about opening an Aditya-exclusive monologue thread on Michaels comeback?

Pretty sure it wouldn't drop from the first page :wave:

I say, let him race until he decides to quit or Mercedes decides to put an end to it.
It is clear that everybody involved expected more to come out of this liaison, but I believe that all involved parties still have enough faith in this project to allow him to continue for at least another season.



#5988 topical

topical
  • Member

  • 2,616 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:11

he just describes the same thing that michael has said..
the way he drove the ferrari and how he drives the mercedes now..very very different.
i don't know why people trust so little what michael says.



The interesting question is this: if this was MS' rookie season I think we all agree he would probably be dropped by Mercedes at the end of the year, as he is being thrashed by an average driver in Rosberg. Then he'd either join a backmarker team or go race Indy cars or something and that would be the end of MS in F1. So are you saying the only difference between that and 7 WDC and 91 victories is having a car set up to your liking? Sorry, but I just find that hard to believe. That does play some role, but it is much more likely that MS' natural abilities have also diminished considerably.
Well, I guess we'll have to wait till 2011 to find that out for sure...

#5989 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:18

I didn't jump straight in after the race in Singapore because I only got to see a cut down 90 minute highlights package and I wanted to see what everyone else here thought.

That was as comprehensive a pasting that a driver has had from his teammate as I have seen. The first stint was as though they were on different compound tyres Michael was so slow. And he had clear enough air for most of it. I think it should also be obvious that Nico is pretty quick and consistent, how quick remains to be seen but he will not be seriously challenged by a guy as past it and slow as Michael is in 2010. And this is an important factor for Brawn and co in looking at next year, if Nico is to extract every last ounce of speed he needs a better benchmark.

I know, the defenders will now come out and say Michael needs another season , another car, different tyres. If that were the case in his earlier career (when he was considered able to extract speed out of a dog) he would have had no reputation as some kind of miracle driver. Today maybe we have to choose between (a) MS is all washed up, a has-been at 41 or (b) overrated champion who was part of 2 superteams who both managed to gain an "unfair advantage". Benetton were certainly suspect in areas like illegal TC and Ferrari had special political assistance and other stuff.

None of this is to say that MS wasn't an exceptional driver, to me he definitely was, as well as a reason to renew my interest in F1 after the ugly Senna/Prost feud. Some of his drives were right off the top shelf, I don't expect a repeat this year or next. If a return to greatness isn't on the agenda I don't see a good reason to continue with this sad display. Michael needs to be quietly taken aside for a chat.

The fan club display an extraordinary resilience to reality. Some even say they don't find his results particularly disappointing - they are either lying or have extremely low expectations. To have about one third the WDC points as your teammate is embarassing, there are no major factors to mitigate why his results are so poor. Can't we just put this miserable comeback to bed as quickly and quietly as possible?


I agree, if he carries on like this - over driving and over compensating - then he needs to retire. He'll get a shellacking in the press but his legendary status will be preserved IMO unless he continues to embarras himself.

Every dog has its day and Schumacher has had his - although I'd love to see him challenge for another win again

#5990 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:22

The interesting question is this: if this was MS' rookie season I think we all agree he would probably be dropped by Mercedes at the end of the year, as he is being thrashed by an average driver in Rosberg. Then he'd either join a backmarker team or go race Indy cars or something and that would be the end of MS in F1. So are you saying the only difference between that and 7 WDC and 91 victories is having a car set up to your liking? Sorry, but I just find that hard to believe. That does play some role, but it is much more likely that MS' natural abilities have also diminished considerably.
Well, I guess we'll have to wait till 2011 to find that out for sure...


Button was considered fairly average - like Rosberg - from 2000-2008 until he became WDC last year. Now he is a leading contender for the WDC against a possible All Time Great in Lewis Hamilton in the same team. Maybe he's just stepped up his game.

Maybe Rosberg has done the same too?

#5991 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:23

In that case M Schumacher simply doesn't have the talent to beat Rosberg. Better?

It is better to say that Schumacher does not have the skills to beat Rosberg.

#5992 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,817 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:26

The interesting question is this: if this was MS' rookie season I think we all agree he would probably be dropped by Mercedes at the end of the year, as he is being thrashed by an average driver in Rosberg.


the "average" driver is just an assumption you make. Remember this, because it is the base of your whole argument
he can be in the yamamoto league as well as in the vettel league. he seldom makes mistakes so he could even be better than vettel

So are you saying the only difference between that and 7 WDC and 91 victories is having a car set up to your liking?

no, of course

the difference is more complex than that:

- the speed of the car (even if he liked this car, not a change to win anything in it)
- the general balance of the car (he struggled in 2005 badly at some points in the season)
- obviously his age but exactly how this affects the rest is unknown

if you imply that he is just lost because of the age etc...that is pretty difficult to believe. he would feel if he can't make it anymore
he's seen F1 through years and years of changes etc, he knows best if he can still pull it or not

#5993 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,449 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:28

if you imply that he is just lost because of the age etc...that is pretty difficult to believe. he would feel if he can't make it anymore
he's seen F1 through years and years of changes etc, he knows best if he can still pull it or not


I think you got that utterly wrong. As with every person, it's hardest to judge oneself. Former masters (at any profession) are no exception to that universal rule.

#5994 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:31

Button was considered fairly average - like Rosberg - from 2000-2008


Who by? Certainly not by those who paid him good money to race their cars! Button was always highly rated by a good deal of the paddock.

#5995 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
  • Member

  • 3,420 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:35

Who by? Certainly not by those who paid him good money to race their cars! Button was always highly rated by a good deal of the paddock.


Button was never considered world class. Let's not forget that he was beaten comprehensively by Fisichella in 2001 in the Benneton. Fisichella was great but a league below Alonso, Schumacher, Montoya etc, so where would that rank Button?

A great driver shows his form early in his career - Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, etc. There was nothing to suggest that Button would be any better than the likes of Trulli in those early years.

It's amazing what a great car does for your inner confidence.

#5996 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:55

Button was never considered world class. Let's not forget that he was beaten comprehensively by Fisichella in 2001 in the Benneton. There was nothing to suggest that Button would be any better than the likes of Trulli in those early years.



#5997 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:02

Button was never considered world class. Let's not forget that he was beaten comprehensively by Fisichella in 2001 in the Benneton. There was nothing to suggest that Button would be any better than the likes of Trulli in those early years.

To the contrary, Button's debut year at Williams was terminated we are told, only because Montoya the mega was contracted to take the spot and the deal was rock solid. Flav totally ruined Button's momentum and bad career choices blighted what should have been a promising career. Oh, and BAR's inept sacking of the manager who gave Button his first GP win in favour of.... Nick Fry, yawn. Button grabbed his chance last year and showed it was no flash in the pan this year with some great drives. The expected domination by the incumbent Hamilton hasn't quite panned out like the predictions.

What your definition of "World class" is would be interesting but I maintain there has NEVER been a dud F1 World Champion all the way back to 1950. Some half-assed fanboys might like to create a lot of smelly hot air to confuse the disbelievers but all F1 champions are pretty smart, pretty quick, and pretty damned good. Mark Webber may well be the next to join that club, if he does all strength to him, he has produced some terrific drives.

Edited by Muz Bee, 28 September 2010 - 10:15.


#5998 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:10

Button was never considered world class.


That depends what you consider 'world class'. Button came into F1 as a very successful junior category driver who was highly touted and expected to win. I don't know about you, but I followed his career - I'm a motor racing fan, see - and was well aware of the beleif that many people had in him, belief that - as we now know - was justified last season. It's interesting, though, that prior to his F1 debut Michael Schumacher wasn't considered anything out of the ordinary. What does that say about who is, and who isn't, 'considered world class'?

#5999 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:17

totally disagree, there is no way the ability to kick a ball or drive a car is part of DNA which is millions of years old. Senna was the greatest wet weather driver of his generation yet he himself admitted he was destroyed in the wet initially but went out every time it rained and practiced like hell until he mastered it. Ability is down to confidence, intelligence, hunger and practice, not DNA.

DNA is more than 1 million old it is as old as life on this planet. The skills and abilities that you develop are the combination of your DNA information and the environment that you live in. Talent it self is marginally due to DNA information and not the environment. Talent is important at the beginning when you are young. The talent becomes evident when you put a young person in the car and he is driving better than average person in the same age. This means that he is more talented then the rest of the average population. After some years of training you develop proper skills and some abilities to drive even faster but you are not more talented than at the beginning. You have the same amount of talent as at the beginning when you first sated in the car. Every driver on the F1 grid is talented even the most successful driver in the history of F1 competition can be less talented than the driver with no WDC wins. To say that Schumacher is not talented or has lost talent is stupid.

Advertisement

#6000 slaveceru

slaveceru
  • Member

  • 180 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:25

to have a talent/skill requires practice,and lots of it,DextrahydraNuclueicAcid has nothing to do with skill/talent

First it is not dextra but deoxyribo nucleic acid. Here is the link what is DNA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA. Talent is not a skill. You need talent and training to develop some skills/abilities not vice verse.