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#6051 arknor

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 12:35

some of this stuff is laughable..

if its down to age and his reaction times getting worse than why did he do well at monaco? surely we would expect him to have been dead slow or have hit a barrier

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#6052 cheapracer

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 13:15

3) the team are paying him superstar money for his solid number 2 drives which makes no sense at all, why not just hire a number 2 and put the money into the car?


Tiger Woods wins all the time does he? When was the last time Michael Jordan played a game yet Nike throw wads of money at them both ....

Why can't some of you guys get simple basic marketing? Michael Shumacher's name is one of the best known on the planet, period.

They are all Superstars and by the world superstar market Schumacher actually comes very cheap.

Also to assist with your apparent lack of marketing knowledge, Schumacher is a demi god in China and here is one of Benz's biggest markets (it is BMW's biggest market by the way). You would be shocked at the attitude difference between Chinese and English commentators when Schumacher appears on screen.




#6053 Lifew12

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 13:24

Why can't some of you guys get simple basic marketing? Michael Shumacher's name is one of the best known on the planet, period.


Yeah, that's all great, but how many cars has he sold trundling around to sixth, seventh, whatever? You're not seriously suggesting that Mercedes signed him just to boost their merchandising sales and without expecting him to be any good? There's a limit to how much publicity somebody not doing very well can garner, to be frank, and at the moment I doubt the Mercedes board are particularly happy with their investment. Another problem with the 'its all about marketing' idea is that he's still very much associated with another brand of fast car, and always wiill be.

I can see where you're coming from regarding China and markets such as that, but how long do you think they'll keep paying an advertising billboard if he doesn't brign them success? It' not like they can brandish the autoroutes of the world with huge pictures of him saying 'Michael Schumacher and Mercedes - 7th place at XYZ' is it?

he needs to perform, or they'll replace his face with a pretty, marketable youngster. Like Rosberg.

#6054 cheapracer

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 13:24

Exactly.

Kimi hated the BS tyres in 2007/2008 and he came away with a WDC and 2 WCC's. In 2007, Alonso had similar problems yet managed wins and a championship fight.


Oh and no mention of Kimi in 2009 or Alonso in 2008/2009?

You need me to pull some selective years for Schumacher to get some posting balance?


#6055 cheapracer

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 13:37

I can see where you're coming from regarding China and markets such as that, but how long do you think they'll keep paying an advertising billboard if he doesn't brign them success? It' not like they can brandish the autoroutes of the world with huge pictures of him saying 'Michael Schumacher and Mercedes - 7th place at XYZ' is it?
.


Not an issue.

In Asian culture competing with "face" is everything without the Western "second is the first loser" sad bullshit.

Didn't you find it strange (as a Westerner) that Honda and Toyota ran midfielders for so long - you should have seen the PR material in Asia over those years, overall God like self descriptions just for being in F1.

Edited by cheapracer, 29 September 2010 - 13:48.


#6056 cindy4ever33

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:36

Not an issue.

In Asian culture competing with "face" is everything without the Western "second is the first loser" sad bullshit.

Didn't you find it strange (as a Westerner) that Honda and Toyota ran midfielders for so long - you should have seen the PR material in Asia over those years, overall God like self descriptions just for being in F1.

:lol:
As an Asian and a Chinese too, I can understand you mate.

#6057 F1Johnny

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:39

Tiger Woods wins all the time does he? When was the last time Michael Jordan played a game yet Nike throw wads of money at them both ....

Why can't some of you guys get simple basic marketing? Michael Shumacher's name is one of the best known on the planet, period.

They are all Superstars and by the world superstar market Schumacher actually comes very cheap.

Also to assist with your apparent lack of marketing knowledge, Schumacher is a demi god in China and here is one of Benz's biggest markets (it is BMW's biggest market by the way). You would be shocked at the attitude difference between Chinese and English commentators when Schumacher appears on screen.


Tiger Woods' situation is very different - he suffered a high level of stress which has affected his game. Exactly right that Jordan doesn't play the game anymore, he knew when to hang it up.

So I guess what you're saying is that MS is now a marketing exercise rather than a race driver.

If I heard my team principal say that if I were a rookie (which he is not, but I expect his supporters to argue that he is a defacto rookie) I would not be retained, I would step voluntarily at the end of the season. I wonder if Ross is actually sending MS that message with the hope that he does leave.

#6058 Lifew12

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:48

Didn't you find it strange (as a Westerner) that Honda and Toyota ran midfielders for so long


Yes, and I didn't find it strange when both pulled out after limited success at great expenditure.

You're dead right with the differences between western culture and that in the Far East, but there are other markets to consider. My point is that Daimler Benz aren't in this to say 'we've got Michael Schumacher, you know, he won seven titles (but not with us)' and pay him millions each year for the privelege; they want to win races, and titles. It doesn't matter how famous the guy is, there will come a point - and I would reckon one in the not too distant future - where the money men weigh up the investment against the results (both marketing and on track) and ask serious questions.




#6059 Boing 2

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:52

Tiger Woods wins all the time does he? When was the last time Michael Jordan played a game yet Nike throw wads of money at them both ....

Why can't some of you guys get simple basic marketing? Michael Shumacher's name is one of the best known on the planet, period.

They are all Superstars and by the world superstar market Schumacher actually comes very cheap.

Also to assist with your apparent lack of marketing knowledge, Schumacher is a demi god in China and here is one of Benz's biggest markets (it is BMW's biggest market by the way). You would be shocked at the attitude difference between Chinese and English commentators when Schumacher appears on screen.


that marketability was based on his No1 status in the sport which was generated by his sucess. He is now, however, becoming a figure of ridicule and that status is fast evaporating to the point where comentators don't even mention it when he gets nailed by a midfielder. If he keeps driving like this i would say his image will become a byword for mediocrity at best.

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#6060 Paco

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:52

Tiger Woods' situation is very different - he suffered a high level of stress which has affected his game. Exactly right that Jordan doesn't play the game anymore, he knew when to hang it up.

So I guess what you're saying is that MS is now a marketing exercise rather than a race driver.

If I heard my team principal say that if I were a rookie (which he is not, but I expect his supporters to argue that he is a defacto rookie) I would not be retained, I would step voluntarily at the end of the season. I wonder if Ross is actually sending MS that message with the hope that he does leave.


Marketing brought money into the team. Period. When they needed it and still does btw.

As for Michael, time will tell if the "investment" pays off. However, I already think it has in spades both in what is to come with the MGP002, signing of sponsors for Merc and also, proving to management that Nico is a crafty racer. So far, Merc hasn't made a single bad decision since taking over Brawn.

As for Michael being behind Nico.. so what. Not that i feel this way but Michael is doing as good a job any other teammate on the grid and better then most with the expection being MW and SV..

I don't have the hard stats, but I bet Nico/MS are the closest pairing.

#6061 Boing 2

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 14:53

Oh and no mention of Kimi in 2009 or Alonso in 2008/2009?

You need me to pull some selective years for Schumacher to get some posting balance?

But that's not really relevant to the argument is it? kimi lost interest in 09 ans alonso had a shit car, not an unsuitable car, a shit one and one in which he dominated his team mate.

#6062 F1Johnny

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 15:07

Marketing brought money into the team. Period. When they needed it and still does btw.

As for Michael, time will tell if the "investment" pays off. However, I already think it has in spades both in what is to come with the MGP002, signing of sponsors for Merc and also, proving to management that Nico is a crafty racer. So far, Merc hasn't made a single bad decision since taking over Brawn.

As for Michael being behind Nico.. so what. Not that i feel this way but Michael is doing as good a job any other teammate on the grid and better then most with the expection being MW and SV..

I don't have the hard stats, but I bet Nico/MS are the closest pairing.


Michael is not just behind Nico, his team principal has said that he is still hoping that he will perform next year but that he would not be retained if he were any other driver.

I seriously doubt that they are the closest pairing in Quali, Race, Points etc.

#6063 as65p

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 15:24

I don't have the hard stats, but I bet Nico/MS are the closest pairing.


Wut? :lol: More like the opposite, I'd say.

#6064 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 15:30

The average qualifying gap between them for the entire year is about .3 in Nico's favour.

#6065 Paolo

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 15:56

he's about 0.4 secs off everywhere so his pace is pretty much what you'd expect from a good number two driver but there are three problems.

1) that gap is to an unknown quantity, no-one knows how good rosberg really is and if he isn't outstanding that makes schumachers pace abysmal.


Rosberg is not a so-unknown quantity.
As his Williams years show, he's Barrichello-Webber level, that is a very good driver but no Lewis Hamilton and definitely no Ayrton.

He might have improved since 2008, as Mansell suddenly did in mid 80s, but I would not bet on that.

Edited by Paolo, 29 September 2010 - 15:57.


#6066 rabbitleader

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 16:27

The average qualifying gap between them for the entire year is about .3 in Nico's favour.


And one of the worst points differentials with his team mate 122 v 46!

#6067 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 16:49

Really funny commentary by Brawn, completely humiliates MS with his comments.


Well, he isnt. Singapore was a crap race, but there is no trend towards getting worse. The season has been a mixture of 'meh' races, with the odd really bad one and a handful of very good ones. There is no trend over time worth mentioning.

Name the very good races schumacher has had this year? With the exception of Spain, there is no race where he was faster than Rosberg, in the other ones he was mostly behind Rosberg by a big margin or holding him up.


But by accountable fractions. Schumacher isn't dramatically off the pace if you look at it from an engineering standpoint.

I dont know what standpoints you are using, but the reality is that MS has gotten destroyed this year.


But when a car is completely designed around another driver with an almost polar opposite driving style, you can hardly blame him from struggling.

Did you ever use this excuse to defend schumacher`s teammates?

Oh and Rosberg has been with the team as long as MS and he seems to be performing far better, despite the car being not made to suit him either.

Wasnt Mighty Michael supposed to be able to adapt to any car, wasnt he supposed to be able to win with a trolley?


Schumacher is a demi god in China and here is one of Benz's biggest markets

So what, are people really so stupid as to by a Benz just because MS drives for them?


that marketability was based on his No1 status in the sport which was generated by his sucess. He is now, however, becoming a figure of ridicule and that status is fast evaporating to the point where comentators don't even mention it when he gets nailed by a midfielder. If he keeps driving like this i would say his image will become a byword for mediocrity at best.

:up:

People are laughing at schumacher and his performances this year. schumacher being an object of ridicule? Cant say I have anything against that.

I don't have the hard stats, but I bet Nico/MS are the closest pairing.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

They are just as close as a midget and Yao Ming are height-wise.

#6068 Johnrambo

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 19:55

The average qualifying gap between them for the entire year is about .3 in Nico's favour.


An eternity in F1 terms.

#6069 Johnrambo

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 19:59

Wasnt Mighty Michael supposed to be able to adapt to any car, wasnt he supposed to be able to win with a trolley?


Yeah MS was referred by his fans as a sort of Chuck Norris of F1.

#6070 Galka

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 20:04

But when a car is completely designed around another driver with an almost polar opposite driving style, you can hardly blame him from struggling.

Nice excuse for Rubens Barricchello in Ferrari.

Edited by Galka, 29 September 2010 - 20:04.


#6071 iakhtar

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 20:26

Nice excuse for Rubens Barricchello in Ferrari.


I'm curious did Rubens ever find the Ferrari difficult to drive? I'm under the impression those cars were very drivable by either team mate.

#6072 zeph

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 21:17

Rosberg is not a so-unknown quantity.
As his Williams years show, he's Barrichello-Webber level, that is a very good driver but no Lewis Hamilton and definitely no Ayrton.

He might have improved since 2008, as Mansell suddenly did in mid 80s, but I would not bet on that.


I was actually thinking that having Schu as teammate may have fired Rosberg up a bit. IIRC, he was never paired up with someone who could really stick it to him. Of course, that is still the case, but at least the idea of having the most successful driver ever next to you must be an incentive to give it your all always.



#6073 Sakae

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 21:23

People are laughing at schumacher and his performances this year. schumacher being an object of ridicule? Cant say I have anything against that.


I thought that his name was spelled with capital S, like in Schumacher, Michael Schumacher that is.

#6074 Anssi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 21:29

*Flavio voice on*

dis is like a soap opera

#6075 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 21:51

An eternity in F1 terms.

button is often much slower than that compared to lewis

#6076 Callisto

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 22:32

Button is a 1 x wdc,Schumacher is a 7 x wdc.lewis and jenson are not that far apart in the table.Rosberg has not won a race yet,against a 7 x wdc with 92 wins

#6077 baddog

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 23:50

However, the very bad on track performance of Button compared to Hamilton (which lets face it the numbers do NOT reflect very well, where fortune and the stewards make Michaels stats look worse than they are, the exact opposite is the case for Jenson) does seem to be a dirty secret which noone wants to talk about in comparison to the never-ending obsession with Michael.




#6078 jimm

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 02:41

Rosberg is not a so-unknown quantity.
As his Williams years show, he's Barrichello-Webber level, that is a very good driver but no Lewis Hamilton and definitely no Ayrton.

He might have improved since 2008, as Mansell suddenly did in mid 80s, but I would not bet on that.



To be fair, Webber has been able to take the fight to Vettel and leads the WDC...not a bad level to be at.

#6079 jimm

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 02:41

Rosberg is not a so-unknown quantity.
As his Williams years show, he's Barrichello-Webber level, that is a very good driver but no Lewis Hamilton and definitely no Ayrton.

He might have improved since 2008, as Mansell suddenly did in mid 80s, but I would not bet on that.



To be fair, Webber has been able to take the fight to Vettel and leads the WDC...not a bad level to be at.

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#6080 ViMaMo

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:24

Brawn emphasizes that a straight comparison between the two team-mates is unfair.

“It is not as simple as that,” he told the official F1 website. “Michael’s driving style depends on a strong front tyre that can withstand his hard braking and the steering maneuvers that he prefers. Nico has simply understood better how to handle these front tyres.

“I have to say that this year’s front tyre is very uncommon. That stems from the fact that the FIA wanted to promote KERS and had asked Bridgestone to develop tyres that would fit a certain weight distribution and thus create a specific tyre characteristic.”

............. “If you take the telemetry data in fast corners or his reaction time when the car breaks away, I don’t see any difference,” Ross continued.

“There he’s still the old Michael. But in the slow corners he cannot make full use of the tyres as Nico can. Nico has put the bar very high in this respect.


Michael needs to change his style before 2011 otherwise he might just become the old dog who cant learn new tricks.

Edited by vivian, 30 September 2010 - 06:26.


#6081 slaveceru

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:54

Exactly.

Kimi hated the BS tyres in 2007/2008 and he came away with a WDC and 2 WCC's. In 2007, Alonso had similar problems yet managed wins and a championship fight.
Schumacher is so far behind Rosberg (especially for someone of his caliber) that it has to be more than just the "car and tyres" not suiting him.

That said Im sure next year, with a new car and Pirellis, Schumacher will be alot closer to Rosberg, though not what he once was.


Get your fact right! Kimi did not hated the tires in 2007 he was not used to the car and this is normal because he switched the team. In 2008 he had problems with tires and he was regular beaten by Massa in qualifications.

#6082 man

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:54

However, the very bad on track performance of Button compared to Hamilton (which lets face it the numbers do NOT reflect very well, where fortune and the stewards make Michaels stats look worse than they are, the exact opposite is the case for Jenson) does seem to be a dirty secret which noone wants to talk about in comparison to the never-ending obsession with Michael.


Slight differnce being Hamilton is acknowledged by most to be the fastest and most complete driver out there where as Rosberg is not. That being said, I do agree that Button was in a no lose situation when he joined McLaren

#6083 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:40

However, the very bad on track performance of Button compared to Hamilton (which lets face it the numbers do NOT reflect very well, where fortune and the stewards make Michaels stats look worse than they are, the exact opposite is the case for Jenson) does seem to be a dirty secret which noone wants to talk about in comparison to the never-ending obsession with Michael.


Nico is .310 over Michael, Jenson about .230 over Lewis.

#6084 as65p

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:44

Michael needs to change his style before 2011 otherwise he might just become the old dog who cant learn new tricks.


I think we can be sure that's already the case. Without any doubt MS can see exactly on the data how Rosberg get's the tyres to work, but apparently he simply can't change his style to achieve the same.

#6085 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:55

Given what .3 seconds represents over the average lap, that's not a surprise. Drivers do have a certain style, but it's not really a conscious thing. Unless you're losing huge amounts of time because you arent using the brakes properly, or making use of all the downforce, or whatever(stuff that rookies have to learn); finding small amounts of improvement isn't that easy.

#6086 baddog

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:56

Nico is .310 over Michael, Jenson about .230 over Lewis.

Indeed, and Jenson hasnt had any 'shockers' like Michael has.. but its striking that Michael is talked about as a complete disaster, worst on the grid, worse than a random rookie would be, should be fired, was never any good etc. (all said here).. when its not that bad at all, and some others who have a lot less reasons are not doing all that much better.

#6087 Craven Morehead

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:09

Indeed, and Jenson hasnt had any 'shockers' like Michael has.. but its striking that Michael is talked about as a complete disaster, worst on the grid, worse than a random rookie would be, should be fired, was never any good etc. (all said here).. when its not that bad at all, and some others who have a lot less reasons are not doing all that much better.


I think its a case of people wanting to see the mighty get toppled. Human nature to some degree. Then there's the 'hater' element, which I've never understood. Some folks just need to have a villain, I suppose.

#6088 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:19

I think there is that, but primarily it's that people have no patience/sense of perspective. Look at the news cycle of any random point in an F1 season. Post-Bahrain people wanted Parliamentary enquiry into how boring F1 was. Red Bulls were 'unstoppable' going into the summer. Then Hamilton was on a charge. Suddenly Alonso is the man to beat and Vettel isn't even considered a threat. The phrase 'you're only as good as your last race' is taken to ridiculous extremes in F1.

Likewise if it suddenly falls into place for Schumacher and he's completely on it at Suzuka, Interlagos, etc; all these conversations will look silly.

#6089 Frans

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:21

Michael is not the Schumacher he was in the past, that's all very clear. They de-magnitized his brain or something. In the past he would park his car in another competitor if they wanted to pass him and with a result of that , if it wasn't in the top three, he would ram them. Rather a no-finish than a lousy 4th. That would be a SHAME on his NAME! That's all gone.

He ends races in the non-points, and for god's sake, the whole TOP 10 of a race get's points this season! And even THEN he can't get more points, ... and he smiles like a farmer with tooth-pain after the race, with a real non-realistic air over him, "It'z all very okay" he say's, smiles and goes on the the next humiliation.

One must wonder if the man doesn't have another (secret) agenda this season at Mercedes. Maybe he has signed a secret deal with Bernie? Ferrari? Not Mercedes, that's for sure, maybe there's no clausule he earns MORE if he scores podiums or wins. So he does not have the bigger urge to get there.

But the most logical explaination is; it has ALWAYS been the car/team, instead of the driver. Michael is showing us his real talent, now in 2010 for the 1st time in his carreer. Welcome to that. I knew it all allong, ... it's a huge revelation, isn't?

#6090 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:22

So far, Merc hasn't made a single bad decision since taking over Brawn.


I think, personally, that signing a 41 year old geezer who had three years out of the sport and costs a lot of money over one of a number of current choices with proven ability who may well have been considerably cheaper wasn't the best decision they could have made.

#6091 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:23

Likewise if it suddenly falls into place for Schumacher and he's completely on it at Suzuka, Interlagos, etc; all these conversations will look silly.


But that is the difference between the Michael of now and the Michael of old - we never used to rely on 'ifs' regarding him.

#6092 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:02

Sure we did. If he didn't have the best car. If he didn't have a weak teammate. If if if if if. Everyone wanted to explain away his success, but strangely no one wants to explain his struggles.

#6093 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:06

Nico is .310 over Michael, Jenson about .230 over Lewis.


That surely does not reflect in the points standing, so I don´t know what is your point. Also, Nico is .310 better than Michael per lap, Jenson is about .230 better than Lewis, is that what you are saying?


#6094 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:16

Yes my mistake, Jenson is the slower of the two.

Why does it not matter? Laptime is a better indication of performance than race results because it requires less context.

#6095 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:37

Yes my mistake, Jenson is the slower of the two.

Why does it not matter? Laptime is a better indication of performance than race results because it requires less context.


Ross - I was just wondering.

What does it matter? In the end, race performance is of course what it all comes down to, and not single lap pace, you don´t get points for that. And while it is true that Michael is only about three tenths behind Nico in average quali pace, the distance is much more than that over a race.

It seems Michael can get the odd fast lap together, but in 2010 it is asked too much of him to put down such laps for 20, 30 or 40 laps in a row, like it was his strength once upon a time. Does it take too much concentration from Michael to bring in 20+ fast laps in a row? Also, looking at the number of uncharacteristic mistakes, it seems that he does not have the concentration for a longer period of time any more that he had for a single lap. So his deficit is compounding over a race distance.

Methinks that Michael simply gives in knowing that he cannot do much right now, and is waiting for better times. If and when he harmonizes better with his front tyres there should be also more consistency and concentration on Michael's part.

At the moment, that lack of consistency makes Michael appear rather lacklustre.

Edited by aditya-now, 30 September 2010 - 09:40.


#6096 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:42

Yes my mistake, Jenson is the slower of the two.

Why does it not matter? Laptime is a better indication of performance than race results because it requires less context.


To outline what I have just posted above - Jenson may be two tenths behind Lewis in average quali pace, but he is only 5 points behind Lewis in the standings, Schumacher is 76 points behind Nico in the standings. So it's not just about laptime.

#6097 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:44

Because there's no doubt about about how many points either one has. Thats never been up for discussion. It's difficult to even make the argument that Schumacher could have had a lot more points but for problems. Most of his incidents have been of his own doing. It's not like he had a sure podium somewhere but then had a puncture.

The issue that's been confounding people all year is why he's missing those final crucial tenths of a second. Whether it's practice, qualifying, or the race.

#6098 Hacklerf

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:52

I think that Michaels displays in the ROC and the Karting hes done against the F1 field at the beginning of the season, show he hasn't lost any of his speed, its only since jumping in this car that he seems to lack a little, i do feel he will be faster on the new tyres, well, i hope so anyway, to have a fast Michael would be great for the sport, imagine it if it was this year, a 6 way shoot out for the last 4 races would be incredible

#6099 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:15

I think that Michaels displays in the ROC and the Karting hes done against the F1 field at the beginning of the season, show he hasn't lost any of his speed,


Unfortunately, in F1 he has to drive an F1 car, not what he drives in the ROC, or a kart.


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#6100 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:26

Because there's no doubt about about how many points either one has. Thats never been up for discussion. It's difficult to even make the argument that Schumacher could have had a lot more points but for problems. Most of his incidents have been of his own doing. It's not like he had a sure podium somewhere but then had a puncture.

The issue that's been confounding people all year is why he's missing those final crucial tenths of a second. Whether it's practice, qualifying, or the race.


Well, there were all those foolish strategy decisions during a few races at the beginning of the season. But that really wouldn't change things much.