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#6101 man

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:54

However, the very bad on track performance of Button compared to Hamilton (which lets face it the numbers do NOT reflect very well, where fortune and the stewards make Michaels stats look worse than they are, the exact opposite is the case for Jenson) does seem to be a dirty secret which noone wants to talk about in comparison to the never-ending obsession with Michael.


Slight differnce being Hamilton is acknowledged by most to be the fastest and most complete driver out there where as Rosberg is not. That being said, I do agree that Button was in a no lose situation when he joined McLaren

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#6102 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:40

However, the very bad on track performance of Button compared to Hamilton (which lets face it the numbers do NOT reflect very well, where fortune and the stewards make Michaels stats look worse than they are, the exact opposite is the case for Jenson) does seem to be a dirty secret which noone wants to talk about in comparison to the never-ending obsession with Michael.


Nico is .310 over Michael, Jenson about .230 over Lewis.

#6103 as65p

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:44

Michael needs to change his style before 2011 otherwise he might just become the old dog who cant learn new tricks.


I think we can be sure that's already the case. Without any doubt MS can see exactly on the data how Rosberg get's the tyres to work, but apparently he simply can't change his style to achieve the same.

#6104 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:55

Given what .3 seconds represents over the average lap, that's not a surprise. Drivers do have a certain style, but it's not really a conscious thing. Unless you're losing huge amounts of time because you arent using the brakes properly, or making use of all the downforce, or whatever(stuff that rookies have to learn); finding small amounts of improvement isn't that easy.

#6105 baddog

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 07:56

Nico is .310 over Michael, Jenson about .230 over Lewis.

Indeed, and Jenson hasnt had any 'shockers' like Michael has.. but its striking that Michael is talked about as a complete disaster, worst on the grid, worse than a random rookie would be, should be fired, was never any good etc. (all said here).. when its not that bad at all, and some others who have a lot less reasons are not doing all that much better.

#6106 Craven Morehead

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:09

Indeed, and Jenson hasnt had any 'shockers' like Michael has.. but its striking that Michael is talked about as a complete disaster, worst on the grid, worse than a random rookie would be, should be fired, was never any good etc. (all said here).. when its not that bad at all, and some others who have a lot less reasons are not doing all that much better.


I think its a case of people wanting to see the mighty get toppled. Human nature to some degree. Then there's the 'hater' element, which I've never understood. Some folks just need to have a villain, I suppose.

#6107 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:19

I think there is that, but primarily it's that people have no patience/sense of perspective. Look at the news cycle of any random point in an F1 season. Post-Bahrain people wanted Parliamentary enquiry into how boring F1 was. Red Bulls were 'unstoppable' going into the summer. Then Hamilton was on a charge. Suddenly Alonso is the man to beat and Vettel isn't even considered a threat. The phrase 'you're only as good as your last race' is taken to ridiculous extremes in F1.

Likewise if it suddenly falls into place for Schumacher and he's completely on it at Suzuka, Interlagos, etc; all these conversations will look silly.

#6108 Frans

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:21

Michael is not the Schumacher he was in the past, that's all very clear. They de-magnitized his brain or something. In the past he would park his car in another competitor if they wanted to pass him and with a result of that , if it wasn't in the top three, he would ram them. Rather a no-finish than a lousy 4th. That would be a SHAME on his NAME! That's all gone.

He ends races in the non-points, and for god's sake, the whole TOP 10 of a race get's points this season! And even THEN he can't get more points, ... and he smiles like a farmer with tooth-pain after the race, with a real non-realistic air over him, "It'z all very okay" he say's, smiles and goes on the the next humiliation.

One must wonder if the man doesn't have another (secret) agenda this season at Mercedes. Maybe he has signed a secret deal with Bernie? Ferrari? Not Mercedes, that's for sure, maybe there's no clausule he earns MORE if he scores podiums or wins. So he does not have the bigger urge to get there.

But the most logical explaination is; it has ALWAYS been the car/team, instead of the driver. Michael is showing us his real talent, now in 2010 for the 1st time in his carreer. Welcome to that. I knew it all allong, ... it's a huge revelation, isn't?

#6109 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:22

So far, Merc hasn't made a single bad decision since taking over Brawn.


I think, personally, that signing a 41 year old geezer who had three years out of the sport and costs a lot of money over one of a number of current choices with proven ability who may well have been considerably cheaper wasn't the best decision they could have made.

#6110 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 08:23

Likewise if it suddenly falls into place for Schumacher and he's completely on it at Suzuka, Interlagos, etc; all these conversations will look silly.


But that is the difference between the Michael of now and the Michael of old - we never used to rely on 'ifs' regarding him.

#6111 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:02

Sure we did. If he didn't have the best car. If he didn't have a weak teammate. If if if if if. Everyone wanted to explain away his success, but strangely no one wants to explain his struggles.

#6112 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:06

Nico is .310 over Michael, Jenson about .230 over Lewis.


That surely does not reflect in the points standing, so I don´t know what is your point. Also, Nico is .310 better than Michael per lap, Jenson is about .230 better than Lewis, is that what you are saying?


#6113 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:16

Yes my mistake, Jenson is the slower of the two.

Why does it not matter? Laptime is a better indication of performance than race results because it requires less context.

#6114 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:37

Yes my mistake, Jenson is the slower of the two.

Why does it not matter? Laptime is a better indication of performance than race results because it requires less context.


Ross - I was just wondering.

What does it matter? In the end, race performance is of course what it all comes down to, and not single lap pace, you don´t get points for that. And while it is true that Michael is only about three tenths behind Nico in average quali pace, the distance is much more than that over a race.

It seems Michael can get the odd fast lap together, but in 2010 it is asked too much of him to put down such laps for 20, 30 or 40 laps in a row, like it was his strength once upon a time. Does it take too much concentration from Michael to bring in 20+ fast laps in a row? Also, looking at the number of uncharacteristic mistakes, it seems that he does not have the concentration for a longer period of time any more that he had for a single lap. So his deficit is compounding over a race distance.

Methinks that Michael simply gives in knowing that he cannot do much right now, and is waiting for better times. If and when he harmonizes better with his front tyres there should be also more consistency and concentration on Michael's part.

At the moment, that lack of consistency makes Michael appear rather lacklustre.

Edited by aditya-now, 30 September 2010 - 09:40.


#6115 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:42

Yes my mistake, Jenson is the slower of the two.

Why does it not matter? Laptime is a better indication of performance than race results because it requires less context.


To outline what I have just posted above - Jenson may be two tenths behind Lewis in average quali pace, but he is only 5 points behind Lewis in the standings, Schumacher is 76 points behind Nico in the standings. So it's not just about laptime.

#6116 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:44

Because there's no doubt about about how many points either one has. Thats never been up for discussion. It's difficult to even make the argument that Schumacher could have had a lot more points but for problems. Most of his incidents have been of his own doing. It's not like he had a sure podium somewhere but then had a puncture.

The issue that's been confounding people all year is why he's missing those final crucial tenths of a second. Whether it's practice, qualifying, or the race.

#6117 Hacklerf

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:52

I think that Michaels displays in the ROC and the Karting hes done against the F1 field at the beginning of the season, show he hasn't lost any of his speed, its only since jumping in this car that he seems to lack a little, i do feel he will be faster on the new tyres, well, i hope so anyway, to have a fast Michael would be great for the sport, imagine it if it was this year, a 6 way shoot out for the last 4 races would be incredible

#6118 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:15

I think that Michaels displays in the ROC and the Karting hes done against the F1 field at the beginning of the season, show he hasn't lost any of his speed,


Unfortunately, in F1 he has to drive an F1 car, not what he drives in the ROC, or a kart.


#6119 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:26

Because there's no doubt about about how many points either one has. Thats never been up for discussion. It's difficult to even make the argument that Schumacher could have had a lot more points but for problems. Most of his incidents have been of his own doing. It's not like he had a sure podium somewhere but then had a puncture.

The issue that's been confounding people all year is why he's missing those final crucial tenths of a second. Whether it's practice, qualifying, or the race.


Well, there were all those foolish strategy decisions during a few races at the beginning of the season. But that really wouldn't change things much.

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#6120 arknor

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:37

Sure we did. If he didn't have the best car. If he didn't have a weak teammate. If if if if if. Everyone wanted to explain away his success, but strangely no one wants to explain his struggles.

if hamilton didnt jump in to f1 with the best car , if hamilton didnt have a team built around him etc.

oh wait its not schumacher

#6121 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:39

So go pollute the Hamilton threads.

#6122 arknor

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 10:45

So go pollute the Hamilton threads.

i dont want to pollute anyones thread im just sick of people who obviously will never say anything postive coming in this thread.

#6123 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:00

i dont want to pollute anyones thread im just sick of people who obviously will never say anything postive coming in this thread.


What if we have nothing positive to say? Do we invent something?

#6124 arknor

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:03

What if we have nothing positive to say? Do we invent something?

no you drag stuff up from 10 years ago instead

#6125 Lifew12

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:23

no you drag stuff up from 10 years ago instead


No, we say something negative! Like - Michael Schumacher wears crap shirts.

#6126 DarthRonzo

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:26

He ends races in the non-points, ... and he smiles like a farmer with tooth-pain after the race, with a real non-realistic air over him, "It'z all very okay" he say's, smiles and goes on the the next humiliation.

But the most logical explaination is; it has ALWAYS been the car/team, instead of the driver. Michael is showing us his real talent, now in 2010 for the 1st time in his carreer. Welcome to that. I knew it all allong, ... it's a huge revelation, isn't?

Is Schumy doing an Alonso ? :confused:

Edited by DarthRonzo, 30 September 2010 - 11:27.


#6127 Chezrome

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:30

Ross - I was just wondering.

What does it matter? In the end, race performance is of course what it all comes down to, and not single lap pace, you don´t get points for that. And while it is true that Michael is only about three tenths behind Nico in average quali pace, the distance is much more than that over a race.

It seems Michael can get the odd fast lap together, but in 2010 it is asked too much of him to put down such laps for 20, 30 or 40 laps in a row, like it was his strength once upon a time. Does it take too much concentration from Michael to bring in 20+ fast laps in a row? Also, looking at the number of uncharacteristic mistakes, it seems that he does not have the concentration for a longer period of time any more that he had for a single lap. So his deficit is compounding over a race distance.

Methinks that Michael simply gives in knowing that he cannot do much right now, and is waiting for better times. If and when he harmonizes better with his front tyres there should be also more consistency and concentration on Michael's part.

At the moment, that lack of consistency makes Michael appear rather lacklustre.


I would find it interesting to see Schumachers stints during practice with a lower fuelload. He was the best in driving 20 almost qualifying laps in two or three stints. Now he has to drive those laps with much more fuel aboard: ie: a full tank


#6128 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 11:55

I would find it interesting to see Schumachers stints during practice with a lower fuelload. He was the best in driving 20 almost qualifying laps in two or three stints. Now he has to drive those laps with much more fuel aboard: ie: a full tank


That post is definitely pointing into the right direction - except for the very beginnings of his career, Schumi always excelled with his banzai laps in short stints, with little fuel on board.
As much as the front tyres are an issue, and an explanation for those final missing tenths, so also the fact, that nowadays he has to drive around for a long time with a lot of fuel on board - it simply does not suit Michael's driving style.

Edited by aditya-now, 30 September 2010 - 11:56.


#6129 man

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 14:52

i dont want to pollute anyones thread im just sick of people who obviously will never say anything postive coming in this thread.


If you're after positive comments I'm sure there are numerous fan websites of M Schumacher that you may consider more appropriate for your requirements. I can understand that when you like somebody or something past a certain degree, what could be perceived a negative feedback can be difficult to tolerate. But if that is the case for you and M Schumacher, I don't think you will ever be satisfied with the nature of the atlas forums. ;-)

#6130 dde

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 15:16

That post is definitely pointing into the right direction - except for the very beginnings of his career, Schumi always excelled with his banzai laps in short stints, with little fuel on board.
As much as the front tyres are an issue, and an explanation for those final missing tenths, so also the fact, that nowadays he has to drive around for a long time with a lot of fuel on board - it simply does not suit Michael's driving style.


In his early years, that was not a problem.


#6131 Boing 2

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 18:39

no one with any sense would say schumachers success was all down to his car, he had a lot of talent and would probably have been a triple world champion on a level playing field. It's simply that his level of success was exaggerated hugely by his circumstances, career management, political and contractual protection and many other layers of protection he built around himself.

That frustrated a lot of people who tuned in every fortnight to see a fair fight for 10 years so you can understand why some people are rather enjoying a little payback and mythbusting here.

Edited by Boing 2, 30 September 2010 - 19:08.


#6132 Sakae

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 19:14

The issue that's been confounding people all year is why he's missing those final crucial tenths of a second. Whether it's practice, qualifying, or the race.

I think Ross Brawn has recently explained MS's issues. Tires were build for heavier car (+KERS), and now without those, combination of tire-properties, high level of COG, and general characteristics of the car it all doesn't suit him, expecially in slow turns. Nico simply is doing a better job of it. Michael would have probably more success this year in a car that Alonso is driving.

#6133 Massacrator

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 20:31

Is Schumy doing an Alonso ? :confused:

Nah, doing an Alonso would include beating his team-mate by far :rotfl: :rotfl:

#6134 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 21:06

I think Ross Brawn has recently explained MS's issues. Tires were build for heavier car (+KERS), and now without those, combination of tire-properties, high level of COG, and general characteristics of the car it all doesn't suit him, expecially in slow turns. Nico simply is doing a better job of it. Michael would have probably more success this year in a car that Alonso is driving.


I've never come across any similar situation, so I don't know whether to hope for an improvement next year or concede the defeat that's staring me in the face this year.

Sometimes you might have a situation such as, lets say, Nadal's, who seemed completely out of tune for quite a while after his injury, so much that one had to wonder whether he would ever recover - and yet he did. But then again, that was a different matter.

Fact remains many specialists were either expecting Schumi to gradually improve to form or fail completely. One might have argued an improvement was taking place in the first few races of the season, but not much has been happening since.

I guess time will tell and we'll all be wiser in a year or less.

#6135 Sakae

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 21:25

I thought initially that Michael will need maybe two to four races to get back into the racing grove, He did not, I was wrong, yet somehow my trust in him was not shaken a bit. The guy is honest to himslef, and his work. If he believes he can drive that car, who am I to tell him differently? Problem exist, I suspect, that no one is certain that they had identified root cause behind car/driver lack of *fill blanks*, and unless you know what's wrong, how you can fix it then?

#6136 Callisto

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 23:14

I must be truthful,i always respected michaels records,but never his attitude/dirty tricks.this season out of the car his calm and coolness has supprised me,he seems to me to be enjoying himself

Edited by Callisto, 30 September 2010 - 23:17.


#6137 aditya-now

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 23:19

In his early years, that was not a problem.


True, that was 1991, 1992 and 1993. Now is 2010.


#6138 JustinCider

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 23:21

http://www.motorspor...e.asp?ID=388986

....Mercedes GP chief Brawn admitted on Wednesday that – if Schumacher was not the famous seven time world champion and record-setting legend - the struggling occupant of this year's car number 3 might have been shown the door.

"To be honest, probably not," said the Briton when asked if he would have persevered with a different driver showing Schumacher's current level of performance.


Schumacher is now officially surviving in F1 by reputation and the promise of better things to come.

I think retirement under the circumstances Martin Brundle mentioned would be the best option for all concerned.

#6139 Nitropower

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 23:22

I must be truthful,i always respected michaels records,but never his attitude/dirty tricks.this season out of the car his calm and coolness has supprised me,he seems to me to be enjoying himself


I can't find where you see him enjoying it. I think he's looked frustrated at the beginning of the season, then complacent and finally aggresive on others when fighting for positions. Just my opinion.

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#6140 Muz Bee

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 23:40

I must be truthful,i always respected michaels records,but never his attitude/dirty tricks.this season out of the car his calm and coolness has supprised me,he seems to me to be enjoying himself

Unfortunately for Michael he isn't contracted to be enjoying himself. Also "enjoying" F1 if anything indicates a plateauing or worse, top racers are utterly driven, never satisfied and have a high need to dig deeper. I don't see anything close to that in the recent Michael. Waiting for 2011 is an extraordinary thing for a driver, more so his team boss. Well you have to say the two have shared many good times so some loyalty should be expected.

#6141 SchumiBoy

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 23:43

Unfortunately for Michael he isn't contracted to be enjoying himself.


He must have a very special contract nevertheless. No other driver in F1 would get away with a season like this

#6142 Muz Bee

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 23:44

no one with any sense would say schumachers success was all down to his car, he had a lot of talent and would probably have been a triple world champion on a level playing field. It's simply that his level of success was exaggerated hugely by his circumstances, career management, political and contractual protection and many other layers of protection he built around himself.

That frustrated a lot of people who tuned in every fortnight to see a fair fight for 10 years so you can understand why some people are rather enjoying a little payback and mythbusting here.

:up: A balanced summation, neither hater nor fanboy. MS indeed was worthy of 3WDCs, I regard him as similar level to a Stewart or Lauda and his mega record flatters him IMO. The layers of protection you speak of will of course be denied by his fans but he did enjoy some incredible advantages in the period of his 5 consecutive titles.

Whether the barren period of 2010 puts his earlier career in context is a matter of opinion but I am with you on this. Good post.

#6143 marchi-91

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 02:10

http://www.motorspor...e.asp?ID=388986



Schumacher is now officially surviving in F1 by reputation and the promise of better things to come.

I think retirement under the circumstances Martin Brundle mentioned would be the best option for all concerned.


Because no other driver of his calibre would be in the same boat :drunk:

And his reputation is nothing look down at. Ross may not have held on to another driver, but another driver is not Michael Schumacher. He knows what he's capable of and we've seen glimpses of it again this season. Michael would not be happy if he knew things were not going to get better. He would also not have a job in that respect.


But I guess logic is never really brought into this discussion is it?

#6144 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 02:18

Nah, doing an Alonso would include beating his team-mate by far :rotfl: :rotfl:


2007 Lewis Hamilton (and the odd true performance from Fisi) - can we move on now?


I think retirement under the circumstances Martin Brundle mentioned would be the best option for all concerned.


I'm sure that would suit Brundle's ex-Schumacher thrashed teammate vindictive F1 commentating career perfectly.

Edited by cheapracer, 01 October 2010 - 02:29.


#6145 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 02:35

I thought that his name was spelled with capital S, like in Schumacher, Michael Schumacher that is.


Thats actually quite common throughout all drivers threads I've noticed and commented on before - Freudian stuff, their hero's always start with the proper high case and vise versa.

I think, personally, that signing a 41 year old geezer who had three years out of the sport and costs a lot of money over one of a number of current choices with proven ability who may well have been considerably cheaper wasn't the best decision they could have made.


I'm guessing you could do better as a team manager or team principle?

I seem to understand whats going on with the whole Schumacher deal so out of interest lets compare yours and my lives in terms of success, jobs and what we do daily to see where those differences of perspectives come from - could be interesting are you up for it?

Edited by cheapracer, 01 October 2010 - 02:46.


#6146 SlateGray

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 03:32

What is the latest updated time frame for Schumacher to get the better of his young teammate?




#6147 DarthRonzo

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 03:40

What is the latest updated time frame for Schumacher to get the better of his young teammate?

2011, if the Pirelli front tires provide more grip.

#6148 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 03:57

What is the latest updated time frame for Schumacher to get the better of his young teammate?


Why the loaded question? Are you serious or am I just not seeing the obvious troll?

Theres plenty of information in this thread, I suggest you review it.

If you're serious personally from what I have seen this year and if the Pirelli's do prove to be more suitable then I only expect MS to match Rosberg (to Rosberg's credit) not "get the better" of him.




#6149 SlateGray

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 04:02

2011, if the Pirelli front tires provide more grip.


Don't they have to "Schumacherize the car" as well?

#6150 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 04:29

Wasnt Mighty Michael supposed to be able to adapt to any car, wasnt he supposed to be able to win with a trolley?


Where is your evidence for this please?

In fact evidence goes against this fallacy, from 1996 he and the team methodically built up the Ferrari over a number of years - his skill was in driving consistantly faster lap by lap than anybody else partly due to his legendary fitness and ability to setup a car to perfection, not being ultimately faster or wringing more from a car in a Mansell, Senna, Keke or Gilles type fashion but being faster over a complete race which the results show.


The layers of protection you speak of will of course be denied by his fans but he did enjoy some incredible advantages in the period of his 5 consecutive titles.


Don't for the life of me understand why this keeps getting rehashed as a negative - Ferrari and Bridgestone thought Shumacher's ability was worth putting all of their efforts behind, they had other drivers and Bridgestone had other teams to choose from but they both chose to go with Schumacher.

Thats a positive for the man not a negative that resulted in 5 WDC and 80 odd race wins.

Ferrari's plan = win, Bridgestone's plan = win, Schumacher plan = win, a number of whiney forum posters = lose :lol: