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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#6151 Muz Bee

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:10

well lets see what lewis hamilton can do with his layers of protection hes had since karting

Totally different scenario and hardly "protection". Lewis had an armchair ride into F1 - at the sharp end of the grid but since then he's been on his own and overall pretty capable of handling it in his stride. And that includes dealing with a personally obsessive 2xWDC as a teammate in his rookie year.

Ferrari's relationship with Bridgestone combined with Michael's almost unique privilege within the team gave him a good level of domination. Throw in the FIA's one rule for Ferrari another for the rest and some quaint interpretations by stewards meant Ferrari enjoyed an easy ride to victory. This is no way to deny that Michael was an exceptional driver, just the statistics are amplified by all the above. To deny it is to turn a blind eye to what all the specialist F1 media knew for fact - Michael wasn't quite the miracle man some naively believed. We see evidence of that against a decent teammate who is empowered to compete.

Edited by Muz Bee, 01 October 2010 - 10:13.


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#6152 DarthRonzo

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:27

I think MS and RB assessment were correct bcs in Spa and Monza MS was much closer to NR, a decent performance for one second driver.

But in Singapore, where we have several slow corners and a slipery track, MS was a one second [slower] driver.

However, that's quite strange bcs MS used to be the "King of Mickey Mouse" circuits, with plenty of slow corners. Now, he can't take it at NR's level.

Edited by DarthRonzo, 01 October 2010 - 12:36.


#6153 Zoe

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:32

Hahaah Schumacher will never return to his old form!


Well, considering that his "old form" was already regarded as being out of talent and slow, I am not sure that it would not be actually good if he wouldn't return to that form of his early years :drunk: :D :yawnface:

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#6154 tormave

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 13:35

Load of rubbish.

I suggest you post your question in the Technical Forum first before coming here and giving your own "gross oversimplification of the issue". Simply changing compounds and/or constructions will have dramatic results everywhere including front to rear car balance.

What is this question you're referring to? I responding to a post wishing for more grip from a Pirelli front tyre. More grip than what, this years Bridgestone? What MGP has been wishing for is more linear grip/load behaviour, the lack of front end grip is a characteristic of their car more than the tyre.

To prove a point McLaren report better handling on hards this year while Ferrari report better on softs - the hards and softs this year have the same contact patch ratio which according to you there should be no difference ..... and thats the same brand and construction.

I don't see the contradiction here. Where did I say two different cars can't handle differently with the same set of tyres? What I was implying and what I still think is that in the universe outside Michael Schumacher and his constellation of fans there hasn't been a huge issue with this year's Bridgestone front tyres. Furthermore, as the tyre sizes will remain the same next year, I don't think there will be a major difference in the relative contact patch sizes from front to rear next year from Pirelli. Or let me put it this way: why should there be? This year's narrower tyre came about as a solution for last year's complaints over balance issues with too much front end grip and the rears wearing out. Racing this year has mostly been a great improvement over the last 10 years - Singapore was a great example with Kubica and Webber weaving their way up the leaderboard.

#6155 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 15:46

What is this question you're referring to? I responding to a post wishing for more grip from a Pirelli front tyre. More grip than what, this years Bridgestone? What MGP has been wishing for is more linear grip/load behaviour, the lack of front end grip is a characteristic of their car more than the tyre.


I don't see the contradiction here. Where did I say two different cars can't handle differently with the same set of tyres?



You have a bunch of posters above on this very page discussing how Bridgestone made special tyres for MS - those tyres were of exactly the same size as all the other regulated tyres on F1 cars at the time but because of different construction they performed differently and specifically for MS's driving habits - facts that are imprinted in history but it still doesn't register with you so any more information for your benefit is a complete waste of time.

I did not refer to different cars, I refered to singular cars and I gave you examples of 2 cars that each find different handling due to using the 2 available compounds but still using the same brand, construction and contact patch - this has been widely reported on many of the telecasts and especially was a feature of the information available from the Monza telecast, Mclaren and Ferrari specifically.

Another brand with different construction (especially sidewall), compounds and contact patch will entirely change the handling of a f1 car and because of that early next year expect one or two top teams to drop and one or two mid teams to prosper, same with drivers - happens everytime theres a F1 tyre change.


Could change MS's car for the worse too but apparently Brawn thinks the current front tyre is quite odd and for the wrong reasons (developed for KERS apparently). If it does get worse I also can't see MS staying after 2011.






#6156 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 16:15

What reputation? I asked for evidence of this just a few posts ago and gave a factual provable view that opposes it so give us the low down thanks ...?

Surely not from being stuck in 5th gear for a few laps luckily at a track that didn't give much time up because of it although I actually don't think he wanted to retire after knocking a wheel off via DC in the wet and having just 3 wheels at Spa in '98! Those are the only above the ordinary incidents I can think of.

"Shattered" only if thats the belief you carry, I don't and apparently(?) you didn't so who are you refering to?

"Utterly and devastatingly"? - bit dramatic there mate.



But his adaptability was cited by Ross Brawn himself as the reason for Michaels success. So his reputation for adapting to the car must be well known.


Here is what Ross B said in January:

“I don't think Michael can win the first race.

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.

If I had to bet on any of them, then it is clear that Michael will become world champion. Michael is now more relaxed. When he retired in 2006, F1 was a burden for him. Now I can sense his old enthusiasm.”




http://www.crash.net...d_champion.html

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 01 October 2010 - 16:19.


#6157 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 16:38

But his adaptability was cited by Ross Brawn himself as the reason for Michaels success. So his reputation for adapting to the car must be well known.


Here is what Ross B said in January:

“I don't think Michael can win the first race.

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.

If I had to bet on any of them, then it is clear that Michael will become world champion. Michael is now more relaxed. When he retired in 2006, F1 was a burden for him. Now I can sense his old enthusiasm.”




http://www.crash.net...d_champion.html


Quite obviously Schumacher was superb and adaptable in his first career. He is not so now due to age or the long break or because Rosberg is that good. Is this too hard to accept ?

Are you actually implying that either:

a)Ross Brawn is a liar and
b) He just said these things over and over again to hype up Schumacher over the years, when clearly anyone who has observed Ross Brawn knows he is the among the most practical and pragmatic people on the paddock.
c) You know, like Frans, Cheap Wine, Aditya now etc, more about Schumacher than Ross Brawn himself. Ross Brawn only discovered Schumacher's flaws now, while you guys knew it all along. What visionaries, I must say :rotfl: :rotfl:

I cant even begin to read some of the rubbish people have started to post on this thread.
For example, a normally sane poster like Muz Bee is now claiming Schumacher's records are exaggerated. I can also claim with a similar line of reasoning that Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio too had very favourable conditions in at least half of all their achievements which make their records look exaggerated as well. Nearly every great driver in F1's history has had these so called favourable conditions going for him at some point or the other during their successes. However, whether it is Schumacher or Senna or Clark or Stewart or Fangio, these drivers have first worked their butts off to get into a position of strength and not just got everything on a platter because of them being blessed by the Gods. No team is stupid enough to give a driver what he wants unless they know they are going to get return on their investment.
To claim that Schumacher's championships are hollow is to implicitly acknowledge all championships since 1950 which had a superior car, weak teammate, a team favoring one driver,and many such factors, as hollow as well. I can count with my fingers the number of championships which have been won without one or all of these factors going for the particular World drivers champion. Get over it people, and stop losing sleep over Schumacher winning as much as he did. Twist it any which way you want it, the truth is he deserved each and every one of his 7 world championships and wins as much as the next great driver deserved his championships, wins or podiums.

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.

Edited by SparkPlug, 01 October 2010 - 16:40.


#6158 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 17:09

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.


Thats doesn't reference to him being able to jump into any new car and win, he only drove for two teams (F1), both continuously developed around him till their respective ends in '95 and '06.

Theres a big difference between adapting to continuous and literally daily developments with unlimited testing time and multiple choices of development parts on standby (not to mention a whole tyre company on standby too) Vs starting out in a whole new ball game from scratch with no testing time and limited parts updates.

Edited by cheapracer, 01 October 2010 - 17:11.


#6159 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 17:13

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.



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:lol: :lol:




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#6160 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:02

Quite obviously Schumacher was superb and adaptable in his first career. He is not so now due to age or the long break or because Rosberg is that good. Is this too hard to accept ?

Are you actually implying that either:

a)Ross Brawn is a liar and
b) He just said these things over and over again to hype up Schumacher over the years, when clearly anyone who has observed Ross Brawn knows he is the among the most practical and pragmatic people on the paddock.
c) You know, like Frans, Cheap Wine, Aditya now etc, more about Schumacher than Ross Brawn himself. Ross Brawn only discovered Schumacher's flaws now, while you guys knew it all along. What visionaries, I must say :rotfl: :rotfl:

I cant even begin to read some of the rubbish people have started to post on this thread.
For example, a normally sane poster like Muz Bee is now claiming Schumacher's records are exaggerated. I can also claim with a similar line of reasoning that Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio too had very favourable conditions in at least half of all their achievements which make their records look exaggerated as well. Nearly every great driver in F1's history has had these so called favourable conditions going for him at some point or the other during their successes. However, whether it is Schumacher or Senna or Clark or Stewart or Fangio, these drivers have first worked their butts off to get into a position of strength and not just got everything on a platter because of them being blessed by the Gods. No team is stupid enough to give a driver what he wants unless they know they are going to get return on their investment.
To claim that Schumacher's championships are hollow is to implicitly acknowledge all championships since 1950 which had a superior car, weak teammate, a team favoring one driver,and many such factors, as hollow as well. I can count with my fingers the number of championships which have been won without one or all of these factors going for the particular World drivers champion. Get over it people, and stop losing sleep over Schumacher winning as much as he did. Twist it any which way you want it, the truth is he deserved each and every one of his 7 world championships and wins as much as the next great driver deserved his championships, wins or podiums.

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.



One detects a healthy dose of passion in your post in the form of finger pointing, pride and retaliation, but unfortunately it comes at the expense of substance. ;-)

Regarding Ross Brawn's comments, if anything I believe Ross has implied that M Schumacher is as good if not better now than he was in 2006. Ross Brawn himself therfore is the one comparing the M Schumacher of 2010 vs 2006. Much of the subsequent rhetoric regarding the how M Schumacher was flattered by the circumstances he found himself in before he retired is therefore lent a hand by the aforementioned statement and the performance of M Schumacher in 2010.

Regarding Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio, that really is something you could take up in a seperate thread as I dont think you can make a rash statement like that without proper analysis. I can add this briefly however. Not all drivers faced the hardships that the likes of Perry Mcarthy or Mike Thackwell did. The drivers you mentioned were certainly flattered to a degree in some contexts. However, the key difference being is the likes of Prost, G Hill, Clark and Moss et al are universally considered to be superior (being an understatement) than the likes of Lehto, Herbert, Verstappen, Brundle, Irvine, Barrichello and co. ;-)

In 2010, M Schumacher has been paired up with a humble N Rosberg who not many seemed to rate very highly in this forum pre-season, and despite 15 races and thousands of laps to adpat, M Schumacher is continuously being battered like a nice bit of cod and most significantly of all, in an environment based on equality.



#6161 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:10

One detects a healthy dose of passion in your post in the form of finger pointing, pride and retaliation, but unfortunately it comes at the expense of substance. ;-)

Regarding Ross Brawn's comments, if anything I believe Ross has implied that M Schumacher is as good if not better now than he was in 2006. Ross Brawn himself therfore is the one comparing the M Schumacher of 2010 vs 2006. Much of the subsequent rhetoric regarding the how M Schumacher was flattered by the circumstances he found himself in before he retired is therefore lent a hand by the aforementioned statement and the performance of M Schumacher in 2010.

Regarding Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio, that really is something you could take up in a seperate thread as I dont think you can make a rash statement like that without proper analysis. I can add this briefly however. Not all drivers faced the hardships that the likes of Perry Mcarthy or Mike Thackwell did. The drivers you mentioned were certainly flattered to a degree in some contexts. However, the key difference being is the likes of Prost, G Hill, Clark and Moss et al are universally considered to be superior (being an understatement) than the likes of Lehto, Herbert, Verstappen, Brundle, Irvine, Barrichello and co. ;-)

In 2010, M Schumacher has been paired up with a humble N Rosberg who not many seemed to rate very highly in this forum pre-season, and despite 15 races and thousands of laps to adpat, M Schumacher is continuously being battered like a nice bit of cod and most significantly of all, in an environment based on equality.


I am sorry to disappoint you but I am a Hakkinen fan, always was and always will be. Thats not to hide the fact that my admiration for Hakkinen's greatest rival hasnt grown, especially since he has returned.

In your (yet another) long post with little else other than your little crusade to save the world from the evil appreciation for one of the world's greatest sportsmen, I have bolded one part which seems to stand out.
You said you believe Ross Brawn's comments regarding one aspect of Schumacher's performance. Do you ?

Edited by SparkPlug, 01 October 2010 - 18:11.


#6162 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:13

But his adaptability was cited by Ross Brawn himself as the reason for Michaels success. So his reputation for adapting to the car must be well known.


Here is what Ross B said in January:

“I don't think Michael can win the first race.

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.

If I had to bet on any of them, then it is clear that Michael will become world champion. Michael is now more relaxed. When he retired in 2006, F1 was a burden for him. Now I can sense his old enthusiasm.”




http://www.crash.net...d_champion.html



A very valid quote you have found there. Particularly as it is comming from none other than Ross Brawn who I recall implying on numerous occassions that M Schumacher is as good now if not better than he was in 2006.

The multiple question marks regarding M Schumachers quality of teammates, preferential treatment as well as the quantity of genuine competition can without doubt be classified as a re-opened case with the evidence we are seeing in 2010. The suspicions that were there before he retired were there for good reason it appears.

#6163 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:20

I am sorry to disappoint you but I am a Hakkinen fan, always was and always will be. Thats not to hide the fact that my admiration for Hakkinen's greatest rival hasnt grown, especially since he has returned.

In your (yet another) long post with little else other than your little crusade to save the world from the evil appreciation for one of the world's greatest sportsmen, I have bolded one part which seems to stand out.
You said you believe Ross Brawn's comments regarding one aspect of Schumacher's performance. Do you ?


I'm not really interested in who you are a fan of. ;-) Fanatism is on par with patriotism...pointless and for the irrational IMO. ;-) Unfortuantely we live in a world where extremism is all the rage hence fanatism and key words adopted by your ilk such as "greatest" and "evil".

Reason and emotion, its good to try and understand how the two are related my friend. ;-)

As for the Ross Brawn quote, could you rephrase your question because I dont follow?

Edited by man, 01 October 2010 - 18:38.


#6164 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:38

I'm not really interested in who you are a fan of. ;-) Fanatism is on par with patriotism...pointless and for the irrational IMO. ;-) Unfortuantely we live in a world where extremism is all the rage hence fanatism and key words such as "greatest" and "evil".

Reason and emotion, its good to try and understand how the two are related my friend. ;-)

As for the Ross Brawn quote, could you rephrase your question because I dont follow?

Do you believe what Ross Brawn says about Schumacher ?

#6165 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:43

Do you believe what Ross Brawn says about Schumacher ?


Depends on what he is saying I suppose. If you are referring to the quote mentioned, then yes, it has some value. And when we combine this with what Lauda has talked about when returning to racing after a break, it does give food for thought.

Do you believe what Ross Brawn said is the reality of the situation?


#6166 valachus

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:46

Let's look at the situation from another angle. Did Schumacher [EDIT: or Rosberg] ever oversteer and spin the car this year, during FP, Q or race? I was trying to remember but can't, so far. However there's plenty of oversteer spin moments with MS on youtube.

Edited by valachus, 01 October 2010 - 18:48.


#6167 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:50

Depends on what he is saying I suppose. If you are referring to the quote mentioned, then yes, it has some value. And when we combine this with what Lauda has talked about when returning to racing after a break, it does give food for thought.

Do you believe what Ross Brawn said is the reality of the situation?

Basically you're saying you believe Brawn when he says something that suits your views. Else its all lies from him ?

#6168 arknor

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:54

Let's look at the situation from another angle. Did Schumacher [EDIT: or Rosberg] ever oversteer and spin the car this year, during FP, Q or race? I was trying to remember but can't, so far. However there's plenty of oversteer spin moments with MS on youtube.

dont remember any of them spinning this season?
its not an oversteering car anyway? so its not likely to spin.

i know schumacher severly understeered a few times at monza on the final corner and went straight off the track there in practice he seemed to struggle getting the car to turn around that corner at speed all weekend.

im expecting 180r at suzuka to be horrible for him in this car

Edited by arknor, 01 October 2010 - 19:01.


#6169 valachus

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:01

dont remember any of them spinning this season?


Oversteer spin? MS went out in Turkey at T8 during quali... understeer it was. Rosberg out at Spa during race... understeer... didn't see the Monza and Singapore weekends at all so, no, I can't remember any oversteer spin moments, especially from Michael.

#6170 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:02

Basically you're saying you believe Brawn when he says something that suits your views. Else its all lies from him ?


Ooo You are a cunning (yet predictable in a cute manner) little... ;-)

No, i'm saying I take each statement from an individual as an individual statement and make my judgement accordingly. Your assumption indicates your tendency for carpet generalisations...a strong characteristic of a fanatic and "with us or against us" mentality.

So how about yourself sir. Do you happen to believe or agree with his statment?

Edited by man, 01 October 2010 - 19:04.


#6171 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:11

Ooo You are a cunning (yet predictable in a cute manner) little... ;-)

No, i'm saying I take each statement from an individual as an individual statement and make my judgement accordingly. Your assumption indicates your tendency for carpet generalisations...a strong characteristic of a fanatic and "with us or against us" mentality.

So how about yourself sir. Do you happen to believe or agree with his statment?

One the one hand you talk about carpet generalizations and on the other imply other posters are fanatics based on their posts. Cant expect too much more consistency can I ?

Lets get back to what we were discussing : Exactly how, do you know when Ross Brawn is lying and when he is telling the truth ? What is your criteria for this ?

As for me, yes, I believe Ross Brawn when he says Schumacher is having problems with adjusting to the tyres. Whats so hard to believe ? Other than his die hard fans no one else really thinks Schumacher is a superman.

#6172 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:40

One the one hand you talk about carpet generalizations and on the other imply other posters are fanatics based on their posts. Cant expect too much more consistency can I ?

Lets get back to what we were discussing : Exactly how, do you know when Ross Brawn is lying and when he is telling the truth ? What is your criteria for this ?

As for me, yes, I believe Ross Brawn when he says Schumacher is having problems with adjusting to the tyres. Whats so hard to believe ? Other than his die hard fans no one else really thinks Schumacher is a superman.



There is nothing inconsistent with what i said regarding fanatism. The words "evil" "greatest" "fan" all feature heavy in the mindset of extremists.

Exactly how do I know when Ross Brawn is lying or telling the truth? Well this isn't about lying or telling the truth (your extremisms yet again) it is about when I choose to agree with him or not. There is no magic formula, just the usage or "reason." ;-)

Where are you from by the way if its not too personal?

#6173 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 23:08

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.


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#6174 black magic

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 23:20

interesetring reading the f1 mag that most of the drivers poled dismissed the implication that schumacher should ever have returned or that his reputation was harmed incl johnny herbert.

its also likely that when it comes to schumacher neither norbert or ross are exactly unbiased opinionators. hells teeth when you have been inside the action as long as they have, seen all the telemetry, watched the guy snatch victory from defeat you generate an opinion and respect for the guy. cuts both ways. if ross has what turns out to be an over expectation of what he can deliver can you blame him.

many of us have already pointed out that schumacher is not a rookie with a potential as yet unknown. regardless of his current speed he has delivered more than anyone else hence the greater slack he has been cut.

not bad for an irrelevant driver to have a thread now 155 pages. the biggest thread still alive. hah. must burn with the likes of muzza.

problem is that all these players have also withstood far greater pressure and turned it around so they are unlikely to fold with the current level of media attention. hell it was way worse to be at ferrari in the late 90's and the criticism just if not more so about the mistakes that were being made. regardless of what evolves a t mercedes it means they arent going to fold to public pressure anytime soon

its interesting that ross' performance has never been questioned either. if schumacher has lost it is it not possible that ross and norbert have lost it at least a little bit also. its not like the etechnical dept has covered itself in glory or the team tactics or even knowledge of the rules for that matter.

#6175 AndreasF1

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 00:26

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship. Why would he risk an injury just to gain a few more points? Maybe he is thinking that He can afford to lift because he is riding on his glorious past. He must have written off this season a long time ago so why prove something in a dog of a car that could possibly cause him to crash and eliminate any chance of sucess in 2011? I think that 2011 will be the defining moment of his career. He may be gone by monaco if he can't make it work. Regardless, the pressure will be immense.

#6176 SpeedyS

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:32

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship. Why would he risk an injury just to gain a few more points? Maybe he is thinking that He can afford to lift because he is riding on his glorious past. He must have written off this season a long time ago so why prove something in a dog of a car that could possibly cause him to crash and eliminate any chance of sucess in 2011? I think that 2011 will be the defining moment of his career. He may be gone by monaco if he can't make it work. Regardless, the pressure will be immense.


Personally I do not think he is driving at 90% - I think you only have to look at the way he defends and his aggression in trying to pass.

In the first 6 races MS was improving to the point that he was close to NR but since then the gap has generally got bigger, I do believe this is because MS is experimenting and acting more as a test driver in the remainder of the season. He said himself the remainder of the season would be painful... If he was still focus on 2010 the picture between him and NR would be different, how much different is open to anyone’s opinion but it would be different. My guess going by the first 6 races it would be very close but NR would still have a edge.

Edited by SpeedyS, 02 October 2010 - 05:08.


#6177 arknor

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 02:44

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship. Why would he risk an injury just to gain a few more points? Maybe he is thinking that He can afford to lift because he is riding on his glorious past. He must have written off this season a long time ago so why prove something in a dog of a car that could possibly cause him to crash and eliminate any chance of sucess in 2011? I think that 2011 will be the defining moment of his career. He may be gone by monaco if he can't make it work. Regardless, the pressure will be immense.

sounds ridiculous and telemetry would show it, doubt anyone would would let him drive at 90%.


#6178 Galka

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 05:20

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship.

What? Lack of motivation :rotfl: ? Letting his reputation being trashed by Keke's son just because he doesn't care?
I don't like Schumacher, but you must really hate him if you can imagine that the guy has so little respect for the team that he gives up all efforst as soon as he realizes that this is not a championship car.


#6179 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 05:43

There is nothing inconsistent with what i said regarding fanatism. The words "evil" "greatest" "fan" all feature heavy in the mindset of extremists.

Exactly how do I know when Ross Brawn is lying or telling the truth? Well this isn't about lying or telling the truth (your extremisms yet again) it is about when I choose to agree with him or not. There is no magic formula, just the usage or "reason." ;-)

Where are you from by the way if its not too personal?

Whatever.
Its quite clear from your own admission, that you suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. There is no point debating with you, really.

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#6180 man

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 09:58

Whatever.
Its quite clear from your own admission, that you suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. There is no point debating with you, really.


There is so much passion in your posts - again another extreme statement with the words "severe" and "no point debating". ;-)

So with your rationale, a person can only be considered bias-free if he/she happens to either continuously agree or disagree with a particular person. Thus by your logic if you believe a person is right in his opinion today, you must consider him to be right in everything else he says until for eternity in order for you to be considered bias-free?

Needless to say I'm very curious about your education. ;-)

And yes you are right, I am a human and I do have bias ;-)

#6181 aditya-now

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:07

Seems staggering, doesn't it? 1991.

I was 6 years old then.


Yes, it is staggering - Schumacher has the longest F1 career ever (albeit with an interruptus). Barrichello shows that you can still be fresh after so many years and races.


#6182 aditya-now

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:09

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th..... I think that 2011 will be the defining moment of his career. He may be gone by monaco if he can't make it work. Regardless, the pressure will be immense.


In that case, if he succeeds in 2011, it will be even more momentous - excellent PR strategy, best story of the year, it will be phoenix from the ashes and further immortalize Schumacher´s stature. Let´s see if it is indeed planned and if he succeeds...

Then again, it could be all a fluke and an expression of his helplessness - at the moment I just see him smiling his telling smile and when I look beneath the mask I see insecurity.

Edited by aditya-now, 02 October 2010 - 11:14.


#6183 Lifew12

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:10

Do you believe what Ross Brawn says about Schumacher ?


It's an interesting question, that; when I, personally, read that quote - and others - early in the year I had no reason to disbelieve what Ross Brawn was saying. I did think it a bit much to state that he was 'still better than 90% of the field' before we'd seen him race again, however.

Now, though, I can only conclude that Brawn was wrong; he said he 'hoped to see the magic Schumacher' after a few races; he hasn't, has he?


#6184 Lifew12

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:11

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%?


No. And if he is, he should be sacked. He's employed to race, not to have a laugh every Sunday afternoon.

#6185 DarthRonzo

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 15:50

Irvine criticizing Schumy comeback in the printed Gazzetta dello sport Saturday edition.

#6186 topical

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 15:52

Irvine criticizing Schumy comeback in the printed Gazzetta dello sport Saturday edition.


Is there an English translation?
Or what does he say?
Irvine used to kiss MS' ass when they were teammates so his voice would be one I'd like to hear on this issue.

#6187 DarthRonzo

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 16:45

Its not in the site, in the printed edition.
Something like:

> In theory, the idea of a comeback wasn't bad at all. However, in 2006 Felipe was frequently faster than Michael. Three years later, he looses even more. The result ? A disaster.

> MS excuses are words in the wind: " new team, new people, bla-bla ". In his first year at Ferrari, the car was bad, but he won three races.

#6188 JustinCider

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 16:52

Its not in the site, in the printed edition.
Something like:

> In theory, the idea of a comeback wasn't bad at all. However, in 2006 Felipe was frequently faster than Michael. Three years later, he looses even more. The result ? A disaster.

> MS excuses are words in the wind: " new team, new people, bla-bla ". In his first year at Ferrari, the car was bad, but he won three races.


Good reply, which raises an interesting question.

What was / is the relative performance difference between the 1996 Ferrari and the 2010 Mercedes ?

If there is debate about Schumacher's skills, then take him out of the equasion.

#6189 arknor

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 18:04

Its not in the site, in the printed edition.
Something like:

> In theory, the idea of a comeback wasn't bad at all. However, in 2006 Felipe was frequently faster than Michael. Three years later, he looses even more. The result ? A disaster.

> MS excuses are words in the wind: " new team, new people, bla-bla ". In his first year at Ferrari, the car was bad, but he won three races.

is it actually a new interview are did they just realise irvine was on the f1 forum at monza? because he basicly said the same thing there.

something along the lines of that he thought schumacher was already starting to lose his speed in 2006 or maybe even as early as 2004

#6190 Wilgot

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 18:18

However, in 2006 Felipe was frequently faster than Michael.

By faster, do you mean slower? :cool:

#6191 Clatter

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 18:27

Its not in the site, in the printed edition.
Something like:

> In theory, the idea of a comeback wasn't bad at all. However, in 2006 Felipe was frequently faster than Michael. Three years later, he looses even more. The result ? A disaster.

> MS excuses are words in the wind: " new team, new people, bla-bla ". In his first year at Ferrari, the car was bad, but he won three races.


Thats just echoing what he said on the BBC forum. Have they taken it from there?


#6192 Galka

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 01:41

By faster, do you mean slower? :cool:

In fact, Felipe was quite good in 2006. He was a solid points scorer, he had two victories, two poles, 4 podiums, and overall did a much better job than Fisichella, who finished the year behind Massa in WDC, and Massa was 3rd in the standings, right behind Schumacher.
Schumacher was superior, but it's not like he 'wiped the floor' with Massa.
It's Alonso who is destroying Massa today - Felipe did not even manage to get a victory or a pole this year.
The gap between Alonso and Massa this year is much bigger than it was between Schumacher and Massa. Maybe it's a result of an injury, I don't know.

Edited by Galka, 03 October 2010 - 01:46.


#6193 Zippel

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 02:46

Good reply, which raises an interesting question.

What was / is the relative performance difference between the 1996 Ferrari and the 2010 Mercedes ?

If there is debate about Schumacher's skills, then take him out of the equasion.


The 1996 Ferrari is a very underrated car. Schumi didn't qualify outside of the top 4 in it all season and people forget it occupied the entire 2nd row of the grid in its first race. Hardly the piece of crap many fans like to spin.

#6194 Urawa

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:09

In fact, Felipe was quite good in 2006. He was a solid points scorer, he had two victories, two poles, 4 podiums, and overall did a much better job than Fisichella, who finished the year behind Massa in WDC, and Massa was 3rd in the standings, right behind Schumacher.
Schumacher was superior, but it's not like he 'wiped the floor' with Massa.
It's Alonso who is destroying Massa today - Felipe did not even manage to get a victory or a pole this year.
The gap between Alonso and Massa this year is much bigger than it was between Schumacher and Massa. Maybe it's a result of an injury, I don't know.


There's a fallacy built up in the years Schumacher's been away that Massa was already
getting the upper hand on him in his final season. It's nonsense. It's based on no
more than the fact that Felipe won in Turkey and Brazil in the second half of the
season. But in both of those races there were specific reasons why Schumacher
couldn't fight him.
In Turkey an inopportunely-timed safety car meant he had to be queued in the
pitlane, meaning Alonso's Renault was subsequently between the Ferraris, thereby
forming a protective buffer for Massa. The only reason he was behind Massa in the
first place was the much heavier fuel load he'd taken into Q3 and, when allowance was
taken of that, he was comfortably faster than his junior team-mate.
In Brazil he could take no part in Q3 because of a fuel-pump failure, leaving Massa to
take an uncontested pole, the foundation of his victory. Looking at Q2, where
straightforward comparison was possible in each of those races, in Turkey Schumacher
was a whopping 1.2s faster than Massa, in Brazil he was 0.462s ahead. In the 54
qualifying sessions of the 2006 season, Massa was genuinely quicker than Schumacher
only once - in Q2 at Monza, by 0.128s.
Michael's average advantage over Massa in those 54 sessions was in excess of half a
second. That’s a staggering degree of superiority over a driver we now know is very
fast indeed, stats that Kimi Raikkonen would kill for, stats that will almost certainly not
be matched next year by Fernando Alonso. There is no evidence whatsoever that
Michael's pace was falling off in his final season.


http://www.riczito.com/schu.pdf

And the "Felipe did not even manage to get a victory this year" is a joke, right?

#6195 zeph

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:19

I'm sure Massa could have won in Germany. I think he can match Alonso's pace when he gets his mojo back.

Schu seems to have left his mojo at Ferrari. Any other driver would have to be sacked when performing as poorly as he has.

Edited by zeph, 03 October 2010 - 09:19.


#6196 Galka

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:27

http://www.riczito.com/schu.pdf

And the "Felipe did not even manage to get a victory this year" is a joke, right?

Excuses, excuses.
Two victories that Felipe got in 2006 were fair and square. You just can't live with the fact that Schumacher's teammates can actually get victories.

As for Alonso and Massa - ok, ok, you've persuaded me, let's consider that in Germany Felipe won.
Alonso has 3 victories, 2 poles, 3 podiums, 4 FL, 184 points (corrected for Germany)
Massa - 1 victory, zero poles, 4 podiums, zero FL, 135 points
One victory does not change much in that statistics.

And the statistics of Schumacher vs Massa I've done above.
Remember, guys, that in 2006 Massa was a new man for Ferrari, fighting at the top for the first time.
Today he had 3 years at Ferrari.
Using him as a benchmark of comparing Schumacher of 2006 and Alonso of 2010 (and many say that Alonso today is a "shadow of his former self") does not exactly flatter Schumacher.

Edited by Galka, 03 October 2010 - 09:29.


#6197 marcoferrari

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:34

Excuses, excuses.
Two victories that Felipe got in 2006 were fair and square. You just can't live with the fact that Schumacher's teammates can actually get victories.

As for Alonso and Massa - ok, ok, you've persuaded me, let's consider that in Germany Felipe won.
Alonso has 3 victories, 2 poles, 3 podiums, 4 FL, 184 points (corrected for Germany)
Massa - 1 victory, zero poles, 4 podiums, zero FL, 135 points
One victory does not change much in that statistics.

And the statistics of Schumacher vs Massa I've done above.
Remember, guys, that in 2006 Massa was a new man for Ferrari, fighting at the top for the first time.
Today he had 3 years at Ferrari.
Using him as a benchmark of comparing Schumacher of 2006 and Alonso of 2010 (and many say that Alonso today is a "shadow of his former self") does not exactly flatter Schumacher.


And Massa s points are also corrected for Germany?

Edited by marcoferrari, 03 October 2010 - 09:34.


#6198 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:37

It's an interesting question, that; when I, personally, read that quote - and others - early in the year I had no reason to disbelieve what Ross Brawn was saying. I did think it a bit much to state that he was 'still better than 90% of the field' before we'd seen him race again, however.

Now, though, I can only conclude that Brawn was wrong; he said he 'hoped to see the magic Schumacher' after a few races; he hasn't, has he?

Someone (I think sparkplug) said on an earlier page that Ross Brawn was generally a pragmatic guy and I certainly would agree with that. But I wonder whether he considers saying positive things about Schumacher is currently the pragmatic thing to do regardless of how he feels about it really? Actually I don't wonder at all, I'm pretty positive that he will say nice things to protect both his great commercial asset (Schumie) and his own reputation for continuing to hire him. Brawn isn't stupid.

#6199 Urawa

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:41

Excuses, excuses.
Two victories that Felipe got in 2006 were fair and square. You just can't live with the fact that Schumacher's teammates can actually get victories.

As for Alonso and Massa - ok, ok, you've persuaded me, let's consider that in Germany Felipe won.
Alonso has 3 victories, 2 poles, 3 podiums, 4 FL, 184 points (corrected for Germany)
Massa - 1 victory, zero poles, 4 podiums, zero FL, 135 points
One victory does not change much in that statistics.

And the statistics of Schumacher vs Massa I've done above.
Remember, guys, that in 2006 Massa was a new man for Ferrari, fighting at the top for the first time.
Today he had 3 years at Ferrari.
Using him as a benchmark of comparing Schumacher of 2006 and Alonso of 2010 (and many say that Alonso today is a "shadow of his former self") does not exactly flatter Schumacher.


This is not my article. Nobody said that his wins were not fair and square.
You said it´s not like he "wiped the floor' with Massa, but he did it and the figures don´t lie.
Neither Massa´s speed increased during 06 nor Schumacher´s decreased.
Massa just made less mistakes which translated into more points in the second half of 06


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#6200 Galka

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:57

And Massa s points are also corrected for Germany?

Yes.
It's just 7 points more.