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#6151 tormave

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 05:04

2011, if the Pirelli front tires provide more grip.

Again, this is a gross oversimplification of the issue. In Singapore for instance both MGP drivers complained about rear tyre wear and resulting oversteer. In 2011 the Pirelli front tyre will be of the same width as this year's Bridgestone one is. It's not really physically possible to for the front tyre grip to increase relative to the rear tyre one just by changing the compound or the supplier because the contact patch sizes (front & rear) will remain the same.

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#6152 DarthRonzo

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 05:50

Again, this is a gross oversimplification of the issue. In Singapore for instance both MGP drivers complained about rear tyre wear and resulting oversteer. In 2011 the Pirelli front tyre will be of the same width as this year's Bridgestone one is. It's not really physically possible to for the front tyre grip to increase relative to the rear tyre one just by changing the compound or the supplier because the contact patch sizes (front & rear) will remain the same.

Both Mick Schumy and Ross Brawn gave lenghty interviews about the subject last week.
Schumy is losing time in the low speed corners/turns as he needs a firmly stuck front end.
Since BStone changed the weight ratio among axles, the front tires had to be hander and with low grip.

About the tires, there are other variables, like side wall and tire bead construction, among other ellements.

#6153 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 05:54

Again, this is a gross oversimplification of the issue.

It's not really physically possible to for the front tyre grip to increase relative to the rear tyre one just by changing the compound or the supplier because the contact patch sizes (front & rear) will remain the same.


Load of rubbish.

I suggest you post your question in the Technical Forum first before coming here and giving your own "gross oversimplification of the issue". Simply changing compounds and/or constructions will have dramatic results everywhere including front to rear car balance.

To prove a point McLaren report better handling on hards this year while Ferrari report better on softs - the hards and softs this year have the same contact patch ratio which according to you there should be no difference ..... and thats the same brand and construction.

The Tech Forum has at least one regular guy involved with tyre construction and others who engineer results from them.


#6154 arknor

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:11

The layers of protection you speak of will of course be denied by his fans but he did enjoy some incredible advantages in the period of his 5 consecutive titles.

well lets see what lewis hamilton can do with his layers of protection hes had since karting

#6155 Craven Morehead

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:12

Again, this is a gross oversimplification of the issue. In Singapore for instance both MGP drivers complained about rear tyre wear and resulting oversteer. In 2011 the Pirelli front tyre will be of the same width as this year's Bridgestone one is. It's not really physically possible to for the front tyre grip to increase relative to the rear tyre one just by changing the compound or the supplier because the contact patch sizes (front & rear) will remain the same.


Dead wrong I'm afraid..

There are so many more variables at play. Carcass stiffness, belt tension, side wall construction & shape, etc. You can't even be certain at this point that the contact patches of the Pirelli will be the same as the Bridgestone. Or that the contact patch ratio front/ rear will be the same.

#6156 topical

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:30

Slight differnce being Hamilton is acknowledged by most to be the fastest and most complete driver out there


Er, no he's not. Alonso is.

#6157 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:38

And Kubica. And whoever else is the flavor of the week.

#6158 aditya-now

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:39

Er, no he's not. Alonso is.


Correct, not Schumacher is, not Hamilton is, Alonso is.

#6159 aditya-now

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:41

And Kubica. And whoever else is the flavor of the week.


Kubica will need to still prove it when in a top car - he draws a lot of sympathy now, but the proof of the pudding is always in the eating. Fisichella was thought by many is a superstar in waiting, but when he had the Renault in 2005 and 2006 he failed miserably. So I keep my views on Kubica still reserved.

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#6160 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:54

And Kubica. And whoever else is the flavor of the week.


Isn't it Klien this week? :lol:

#6161 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 07:58

Dead wrong I'm afraid..

There are so many more variables at play. Carcass stiffness, belt tension, side wall construction & shape, etc. You can't even be certain at this point that the contact patches of the Pirelli will be the same as the Bridgestone. Or that the contact patch ratio front/ rear will be the same.


From the complaints this year I'm sure they will endeavour to make a larger contact patch on the front - well I would if I was in charge for no better reason than have the drivers tell the world that "the new Pirelli's feel much better than last years Bridgestones".


#6162 Konsta

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:22

Because no other driver of his calibre would be in the same boat :drunk:

And his reputation is nothing look down at. Ross may not have held on to another driver, but another driver is not Michael Schumacher. He knows what he's capable of and we've seen glimpses of it again this season. Michael would not be happy if he knew things were not going to get better. He would also not have a job in that respect.


But I guess logic is never really brought into this discussion is it?


What might those glimpses be? I haven´t seen nothing but poor and at best upper-mediocre performances. Michael´s reputation was that he could drive around any problem and that has been utterly and devastatingly shattered this season. All that the fellow has is great reputation and wishful thinking that he might get better than what he´s been able to portray.

#6163 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:32

He must have a very special contract nevertheless. No other driver in F1 would get away with a season like this


Plenty have in the past.



#6164 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:40

Michael´s reputation was that he could drive around any problem and that has been utterly and devastatingly shattered this season.



What reputation? I asked for evidence of this just a few posts ago and gave a factual provable view that opposes it so give us the low down thanks ...?

Surely not from being stuck in 5th gear for a few laps luckily at a track that didn't give much time up because of it although I actually don't think he wanted to retire after knocking a wheel off via DC in the wet and having just 3 wheels at Spa in '98! Those are the only above the ordinary incidents I can think of.

"Shattered" only if thats the belief you carry, I don't and apparently(?) you didn't so who are you refering to?

"Utterly and devastatingly"? - bit dramatic there mate.




#6165 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:43

True, that was 1991, 1992 and 1993. Now is 2010.


Seems staggering, doesn't it? 1991.

I was 6 years old then.

#6166 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:48

Er, no he's not. Alonso is.


Correct. Complete with tantrums thrown in too.

#6167 Frans

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 08:52

Hahaah Schumacher will never return to his old form! Hahahaaaaa, he's done, he's overcooked and not tasty. He's a piece of faded history !!

#6168 Sakae

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 09:24

http://www.motorspor...e.asp?ID=388986



Schumacher is now officially surviving in F1 by reputation and the promise of better things to come.

I think retirement under the circumstances Martin Brundle mentioned would be the best option for all concerned.

Brundle is talking to anti-factions. His attitute needs perhaps adjustment as best option for all concerned.

#6169 Konsta

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 09:50

What reputation? I asked for evidence of this just a few posts ago and gave a factual provable view that opposes it so give us the low down thanks ...?

Surely not from being stuck in 5th gear for a few laps luckily at a track that didn't give much time up because of it although I actually don't think he wanted to retire after knocking a wheel off via DC in the wet and having just 3 wheels at Spa in '98! Those are the only above the ordinary incidents I can think of.

"Shattered" only if thats the belief you carry, I don't and apparently(?) you didn't so who are you refering to?

"Utterly and devastatingly"? - bit dramatic there mate.


Come on, Cheapracer. That has been a recurrent theme around MS, cherished by his most ardent fans - being a driver who could adapt to everything and drive blistering laps in a less than perfect car.

I honestly would´ve expected Schumi to be a closer match to Nico than what he´s been. I´d say that in every measurable aspect Nico´s being better is consistent with the adjectives I used.


#6170 Muz Bee

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:10

well lets see what lewis hamilton can do with his layers of protection hes had since karting

Totally different scenario and hardly "protection". Lewis had an armchair ride into F1 - at the sharp end of the grid but since then he's been on his own and overall pretty capable of handling it in his stride. And that includes dealing with a personally obsessive 2xWDC as a teammate in his rookie year.

Ferrari's relationship with Bridgestone combined with Michael's almost unique privilege within the team gave him a good level of domination. Throw in the FIA's one rule for Ferrari another for the rest and some quaint interpretations by stewards meant Ferrari enjoyed an easy ride to victory. This is no way to deny that Michael was an exceptional driver, just the statistics are amplified by all the above. To deny it is to turn a blind eye to what all the specialist F1 media knew for fact - Michael wasn't quite the miracle man some naively believed. We see evidence of that against a decent teammate who is empowered to compete.

Edited by Muz Bee, 01 October 2010 - 10:13.


#6171 DarthRonzo

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:27

I think MS and RB assessment were correct bcs in Spa and Monza MS was much closer to NR, a decent performance for one second driver.

But in Singapore, where we have several slow corners and a slipery track, MS was a one second [slower] driver.

However, that's quite strange bcs MS used to be the "King of Mickey Mouse" circuits, with plenty of slow corners. Now, he can't take it at NR's level.

Edited by DarthRonzo, 01 October 2010 - 12:36.


#6172 Zoe

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 12:32

Hahaah Schumacher will never return to his old form!


Well, considering that his "old form" was already regarded as being out of talent and slow, I am not sure that it would not be actually good if he wouldn't return to that form of his early years :drunk: :D :yawnface:

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#6173 tormave

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 13:35

Load of rubbish.

I suggest you post your question in the Technical Forum first before coming here and giving your own "gross oversimplification of the issue". Simply changing compounds and/or constructions will have dramatic results everywhere including front to rear car balance.

What is this question you're referring to? I responding to a post wishing for more grip from a Pirelli front tyre. More grip than what, this years Bridgestone? What MGP has been wishing for is more linear grip/load behaviour, the lack of front end grip is a characteristic of their car more than the tyre.

To prove a point McLaren report better handling on hards this year while Ferrari report better on softs - the hards and softs this year have the same contact patch ratio which according to you there should be no difference ..... and thats the same brand and construction.

I don't see the contradiction here. Where did I say two different cars can't handle differently with the same set of tyres? What I was implying and what I still think is that in the universe outside Michael Schumacher and his constellation of fans there hasn't been a huge issue with this year's Bridgestone front tyres. Furthermore, as the tyre sizes will remain the same next year, I don't think there will be a major difference in the relative contact patch sizes from front to rear next year from Pirelli. Or let me put it this way: why should there be? This year's narrower tyre came about as a solution for last year's complaints over balance issues with too much front end grip and the rears wearing out. Racing this year has mostly been a great improvement over the last 10 years - Singapore was a great example with Kubica and Webber weaving their way up the leaderboard.

#6174 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 15:46

What is this question you're referring to? I responding to a post wishing for more grip from a Pirelli front tyre. More grip than what, this years Bridgestone? What MGP has been wishing for is more linear grip/load behaviour, the lack of front end grip is a characteristic of their car more than the tyre.


I don't see the contradiction here. Where did I say two different cars can't handle differently with the same set of tyres?



You have a bunch of posters above on this very page discussing how Bridgestone made special tyres for MS - those tyres were of exactly the same size as all the other regulated tyres on F1 cars at the time but because of different construction they performed differently and specifically for MS's driving habits - facts that are imprinted in history but it still doesn't register with you so any more information for your benefit is a complete waste of time.

I did not refer to different cars, I refered to singular cars and I gave you examples of 2 cars that each find different handling due to using the 2 available compounds but still using the same brand, construction and contact patch - this has been widely reported on many of the telecasts and especially was a feature of the information available from the Monza telecast, Mclaren and Ferrari specifically.

Another brand with different construction (especially sidewall), compounds and contact patch will entirely change the handling of a f1 car and because of that early next year expect one or two top teams to drop and one or two mid teams to prosper, same with drivers - happens everytime theres a F1 tyre change.


Could change MS's car for the worse too but apparently Brawn thinks the current front tyre is quite odd and for the wrong reasons (developed for KERS apparently). If it does get worse I also can't see MS staying after 2011.






#6175 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 16:15

What reputation? I asked for evidence of this just a few posts ago and gave a factual provable view that opposes it so give us the low down thanks ...?

Surely not from being stuck in 5th gear for a few laps luckily at a track that didn't give much time up because of it although I actually don't think he wanted to retire after knocking a wheel off via DC in the wet and having just 3 wheels at Spa in '98! Those are the only above the ordinary incidents I can think of.

"Shattered" only if thats the belief you carry, I don't and apparently(?) you didn't so who are you refering to?

"Utterly and devastatingly"? - bit dramatic there mate.



But his adaptability was cited by Ross Brawn himself as the reason for Michaels success. So his reputation for adapting to the car must be well known.


Here is what Ross B said in January:

“I don't think Michael can win the first race.

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.

If I had to bet on any of them, then it is clear that Michael will become world champion. Michael is now more relaxed. When he retired in 2006, F1 was a burden for him. Now I can sense his old enthusiasm.”




http://www.crash.net...d_champion.html

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 01 October 2010 - 16:19.


#6176 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 16:38

But his adaptability was cited by Ross Brawn himself as the reason for Michaels success. So his reputation for adapting to the car must be well known.


Here is what Ross B said in January:

“I don't think Michael can win the first race.

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.

If I had to bet on any of them, then it is clear that Michael will become world champion. Michael is now more relaxed. When he retired in 2006, F1 was a burden for him. Now I can sense his old enthusiasm.”




http://www.crash.net...d_champion.html


Quite obviously Schumacher was superb and adaptable in his first career. He is not so now due to age or the long break or because Rosberg is that good. Is this too hard to accept ?

Are you actually implying that either:

a)Ross Brawn is a liar and
b) He just said these things over and over again to hype up Schumacher over the years, when clearly anyone who has observed Ross Brawn knows he is the among the most practical and pragmatic people on the paddock.
c) You know, like Frans, Cheap Wine, Aditya now etc, more about Schumacher than Ross Brawn himself. Ross Brawn only discovered Schumacher's flaws now, while you guys knew it all along. What visionaries, I must say :rotfl: :rotfl:

I cant even begin to read some of the rubbish people have started to post on this thread.
For example, a normally sane poster like Muz Bee is now claiming Schumacher's records are exaggerated. I can also claim with a similar line of reasoning that Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio too had very favourable conditions in at least half of all their achievements which make their records look exaggerated as well. Nearly every great driver in F1's history has had these so called favourable conditions going for him at some point or the other during their successes. However, whether it is Schumacher or Senna or Clark or Stewart or Fangio, these drivers have first worked their butts off to get into a position of strength and not just got everything on a platter because of them being blessed by the Gods. No team is stupid enough to give a driver what he wants unless they know they are going to get return on their investment.
To claim that Schumacher's championships are hollow is to implicitly acknowledge all championships since 1950 which had a superior car, weak teammate, a team favoring one driver,and many such factors, as hollow as well. I can count with my fingers the number of championships which have been won without one or all of these factors going for the particular World drivers champion. Get over it people, and stop losing sleep over Schumacher winning as much as he did. Twist it any which way you want it, the truth is he deserved each and every one of his 7 world championships and wins as much as the next great driver deserved his championships, wins or podiums.

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.

Edited by SparkPlug, 01 October 2010 - 16:40.


#6177 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 17:09

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.


Thats doesn't reference to him being able to jump into any new car and win, he only drove for two teams (F1), both continuously developed around him till their respective ends in '95 and '06.

Theres a big difference between adapting to continuous and literally daily developments with unlimited testing time and multiple choices of development parts on standby (not to mention a whole tyre company on standby too) Vs starting out in a whole new ball game from scratch with no testing time and limited parts updates.

Edited by cheapracer, 01 October 2010 - 17:11.


#6178 cheapracer

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 17:13

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.



Posted Image


:lol: :lol:




#6179 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:02

Quite obviously Schumacher was superb and adaptable in his first career. He is not so now due to age or the long break or because Rosberg is that good. Is this too hard to accept ?

Are you actually implying that either:

a)Ross Brawn is a liar and
b) He just said these things over and over again to hype up Schumacher over the years, when clearly anyone who has observed Ross Brawn knows he is the among the most practical and pragmatic people on the paddock.
c) You know, like Frans, Cheap Wine, Aditya now etc, more about Schumacher than Ross Brawn himself. Ross Brawn only discovered Schumacher's flaws now, while you guys knew it all along. What visionaries, I must say :rotfl: :rotfl:

I cant even begin to read some of the rubbish people have started to post on this thread.
For example, a normally sane poster like Muz Bee is now claiming Schumacher's records are exaggerated. I can also claim with a similar line of reasoning that Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio too had very favourable conditions in at least half of all their achievements which make their records look exaggerated as well. Nearly every great driver in F1's history has had these so called favourable conditions going for him at some point or the other during their successes. However, whether it is Schumacher or Senna or Clark or Stewart or Fangio, these drivers have first worked their butts off to get into a position of strength and not just got everything on a platter because of them being blessed by the Gods. No team is stupid enough to give a driver what he wants unless they know they are going to get return on their investment.
To claim that Schumacher's championships are hollow is to implicitly acknowledge all championships since 1950 which had a superior car, weak teammate, a team favoring one driver,and many such factors, as hollow as well. I can count with my fingers the number of championships which have been won without one or all of these factors going for the particular World drivers champion. Get over it people, and stop losing sleep over Schumacher winning as much as he did. Twist it any which way you want it, the truth is he deserved each and every one of his 7 world championships and wins as much as the next great driver deserved his championships, wins or podiums.

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.



One detects a healthy dose of passion in your post in the form of finger pointing, pride and retaliation, but unfortunately it comes at the expense of substance. ;-)

Regarding Ross Brawn's comments, if anything I believe Ross has implied that M Schumacher is as good if not better now than he was in 2006. Ross Brawn himself therfore is the one comparing the M Schumacher of 2010 vs 2006. Much of the subsequent rhetoric regarding the how M Schumacher was flattered by the circumstances he found himself in before he retired is therefore lent a hand by the aforementioned statement and the performance of M Schumacher in 2010.

Regarding Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio, that really is something you could take up in a seperate thread as I dont think you can make a rash statement like that without proper analysis. I can add this briefly however. Not all drivers faced the hardships that the likes of Perry Mcarthy or Mike Thackwell did. The drivers you mentioned were certainly flattered to a degree in some contexts. However, the key difference being is the likes of Prost, G Hill, Clark and Moss et al are universally considered to be superior (being an understatement) than the likes of Lehto, Herbert, Verstappen, Brundle, Irvine, Barrichello and co. ;-)

In 2010, M Schumacher has been paired up with a humble N Rosberg who not many seemed to rate very highly in this forum pre-season, and despite 15 races and thousands of laps to adpat, M Schumacher is continuously being battered like a nice bit of cod and most significantly of all, in an environment based on equality.



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#6180 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:10

One detects a healthy dose of passion in your post in the form of finger pointing, pride and retaliation, but unfortunately it comes at the expense of substance. ;-)

Regarding Ross Brawn's comments, if anything I believe Ross has implied that M Schumacher is as good if not better now than he was in 2006. Ross Brawn himself therfore is the one comparing the M Schumacher of 2010 vs 2006. Much of the subsequent rhetoric regarding the how M Schumacher was flattered by the circumstances he found himself in before he retired is therefore lent a hand by the aforementioned statement and the performance of M Schumacher in 2010.

Regarding Senna, Clark, Stewart and Fangio, that really is something you could take up in a seperate thread as I dont think you can make a rash statement like that without proper analysis. I can add this briefly however. Not all drivers faced the hardships that the likes of Perry Mcarthy or Mike Thackwell did. The drivers you mentioned were certainly flattered to a degree in some contexts. However, the key difference being is the likes of Prost, G Hill, Clark and Moss et al are universally considered to be superior (being an understatement) than the likes of Lehto, Herbert, Verstappen, Brundle, Irvine, Barrichello and co. ;-)

In 2010, M Schumacher has been paired up with a humble N Rosberg who not many seemed to rate very highly in this forum pre-season, and despite 15 races and thousands of laps to adpat, M Schumacher is continuously being battered like a nice bit of cod and most significantly of all, in an environment based on equality.


I am sorry to disappoint you but I am a Hakkinen fan, always was and always will be. Thats not to hide the fact that my admiration for Hakkinen's greatest rival hasnt grown, especially since he has returned.

In your (yet another) long post with little else other than your little crusade to save the world from the evil appreciation for one of the world's greatest sportsmen, I have bolded one part which seems to stand out.
You said you believe Ross Brawn's comments regarding one aspect of Schumacher's performance. Do you ?

Edited by SparkPlug, 01 October 2010 - 18:11.


#6181 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:13

But his adaptability was cited by Ross Brawn himself as the reason for Michaels success. So his reputation for adapting to the car must be well known.


Here is what Ross B said in January:

“I don't think Michael can win the first race.

He will need a few races to become accustomed to these cars and the many new drivers, but then I hope to see the famous Schumi. That was always his strength – to adapt and learn incredibly quickly.

If I had to bet on any of them, then it is clear that Michael will become world champion. Michael is now more relaxed. When he retired in 2006, F1 was a burden for him. Now I can sense his old enthusiasm.”




http://www.crash.net...d_champion.html



A very valid quote you have found there. Particularly as it is comming from none other than Ross Brawn who I recall implying on numerous occassions that M Schumacher is as good now if not better than he was in 2006.

The multiple question marks regarding M Schumachers quality of teammates, preferential treatment as well as the quantity of genuine competition can without doubt be classified as a re-opened case with the evidence we are seeing in 2010. The suspicions that were there before he retired were there for good reason it appears.

#6182 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:20

I am sorry to disappoint you but I am a Hakkinen fan, always was and always will be. Thats not to hide the fact that my admiration for Hakkinen's greatest rival hasnt grown, especially since he has returned.

In your (yet another) long post with little else other than your little crusade to save the world from the evil appreciation for one of the world's greatest sportsmen, I have bolded one part which seems to stand out.
You said you believe Ross Brawn's comments regarding one aspect of Schumacher's performance. Do you ?


I'm not really interested in who you are a fan of. ;-) Fanatism is on par with patriotism...pointless and for the irrational IMO. ;-) Unfortuantely we live in a world where extremism is all the rage hence fanatism and key words adopted by your ilk such as "greatest" and "evil".

Reason and emotion, its good to try and understand how the two are related my friend. ;-)

As for the Ross Brawn quote, could you rephrase your question because I dont follow?

Edited by man, 01 October 2010 - 18:38.


#6183 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:38

I'm not really interested in who you are a fan of. ;-) Fanatism is on par with patriotism...pointless and for the irrational IMO. ;-) Unfortuantely we live in a world where extremism is all the rage hence fanatism and key words such as "greatest" and "evil".

Reason and emotion, its good to try and understand how the two are related my friend. ;-)

As for the Ross Brawn quote, could you rephrase your question because I dont follow?

Do you believe what Ross Brawn says about Schumacher ?

#6184 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:43

Do you believe what Ross Brawn says about Schumacher ?


Depends on what he is saying I suppose. If you are referring to the quote mentioned, then yes, it has some value. And when we combine this with what Lauda has talked about when returning to racing after a break, it does give food for thought.

Do you believe what Ross Brawn said is the reality of the situation?


#6185 valachus

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:46

Let's look at the situation from another angle. Did Schumacher [EDIT: or Rosberg] ever oversteer and spin the car this year, during FP, Q or race? I was trying to remember but can't, so far. However there's plenty of oversteer spin moments with MS on youtube.

Edited by valachus, 01 October 2010 - 18:48.


#6186 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:50

Depends on what he is saying I suppose. If you are referring to the quote mentioned, then yes, it has some value. And when we combine this with what Lauda has talked about when returning to racing after a break, it does give food for thought.

Do you believe what Ross Brawn said is the reality of the situation?

Basically you're saying you believe Brawn when he says something that suits your views. Else its all lies from him ?

#6187 arknor

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 18:54

Let's look at the situation from another angle. Did Schumacher [EDIT: or Rosberg] ever oversteer and spin the car this year, during FP, Q or race? I was trying to remember but can't, so far. However there's plenty of oversteer spin moments with MS on youtube.

dont remember any of them spinning this season?
its not an oversteering car anyway? so its not likely to spin.

i know schumacher severly understeered a few times at monza on the final corner and went straight off the track there in practice he seemed to struggle getting the car to turn around that corner at speed all weekend.

im expecting 180r at suzuka to be horrible for him in this car

Edited by arknor, 01 October 2010 - 19:01.


#6188 valachus

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:01

dont remember any of them spinning this season?


Oversteer spin? MS went out in Turkey at T8 during quali... understeer it was. Rosberg out at Spa during race... understeer... didn't see the Monza and Singapore weekends at all so, no, I can't remember any oversteer spin moments, especially from Michael.

#6189 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:02

Basically you're saying you believe Brawn when he says something that suits your views. Else its all lies from him ?


Ooo You are a cunning (yet predictable in a cute manner) little... ;-)

No, i'm saying I take each statement from an individual as an individual statement and make my judgement accordingly. Your assumption indicates your tendency for carpet generalisations...a strong characteristic of a fanatic and "with us or against us" mentality.

So how about yourself sir. Do you happen to believe or agree with his statment?

Edited by man, 01 October 2010 - 19:04.


#6190 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:11

Ooo You are a cunning (yet predictable in a cute manner) little... ;-)

No, i'm saying I take each statement from an individual as an individual statement and make my judgement accordingly. Your assumption indicates your tendency for carpet generalisations...a strong characteristic of a fanatic and "with us or against us" mentality.

So how about yourself sir. Do you happen to believe or agree with his statment?

One the one hand you talk about carpet generalizations and on the other imply other posters are fanatics based on their posts. Cant expect too much more consistency can I ?

Lets get back to what we were discussing : Exactly how, do you know when Ross Brawn is lying and when he is telling the truth ? What is your criteria for this ?

As for me, yes, I believe Ross Brawn when he says Schumacher is having problems with adjusting to the tyres. Whats so hard to believe ? Other than his die hard fans no one else really thinks Schumacher is a superman.

#6191 man

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 19:40

One the one hand you talk about carpet generalizations and on the other imply other posters are fanatics based on their posts. Cant expect too much more consistency can I ?

Lets get back to what we were discussing : Exactly how, do you know when Ross Brawn is lying and when he is telling the truth ? What is your criteria for this ?

As for me, yes, I believe Ross Brawn when he says Schumacher is having problems with adjusting to the tyres. Whats so hard to believe ? Other than his die hard fans no one else really thinks Schumacher is a superman.



There is nothing inconsistent with what i said regarding fanatism. The words "evil" "greatest" "fan" all feature heavy in the mindset of extremists.

Exactly how do I know when Ross Brawn is lying or telling the truth? Well this isn't about lying or telling the truth (your extremisms yet again) it is about when I choose to agree with him or not. There is no magic formula, just the usage or "reason." ;-)

Where are you from by the way if its not too personal?

#6192 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 23:08

PS : Just for the record, in my honest opinion Schumacher was definitely a superior driver to Senna or Prost for that matter.


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#6193 black magic

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 23:20

interesetring reading the f1 mag that most of the drivers poled dismissed the implication that schumacher should ever have returned or that his reputation was harmed incl johnny herbert.

its also likely that when it comes to schumacher neither norbert or ross are exactly unbiased opinionators. hells teeth when you have been inside the action as long as they have, seen all the telemetry, watched the guy snatch victory from defeat you generate an opinion and respect for the guy. cuts both ways. if ross has what turns out to be an over expectation of what he can deliver can you blame him.

many of us have already pointed out that schumacher is not a rookie with a potential as yet unknown. regardless of his current speed he has delivered more than anyone else hence the greater slack he has been cut.

not bad for an irrelevant driver to have a thread now 155 pages. the biggest thread still alive. hah. must burn with the likes of muzza.

problem is that all these players have also withstood far greater pressure and turned it around so they are unlikely to fold with the current level of media attention. hell it was way worse to be at ferrari in the late 90's and the criticism just if not more so about the mistakes that were being made. regardless of what evolves a t mercedes it means they arent going to fold to public pressure anytime soon

its interesting that ross' performance has never been questioned either. if schumacher has lost it is it not possible that ross and norbert have lost it at least a little bit also. its not like the etechnical dept has covered itself in glory or the team tactics or even knowledge of the rules for that matter.

#6194 AndreasF1

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 00:26

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship. Why would he risk an injury just to gain a few more points? Maybe he is thinking that He can afford to lift because he is riding on his glorious past. He must have written off this season a long time ago so why prove something in a dog of a car that could possibly cause him to crash and eliminate any chance of sucess in 2011? I think that 2011 will be the defining moment of his career. He may be gone by monaco if he can't make it work. Regardless, the pressure will be immense.

#6195 SpeedyS

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 01:32

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship. Why would he risk an injury just to gain a few more points? Maybe he is thinking that He can afford to lift because he is riding on his glorious past. He must have written off this season a long time ago so why prove something in a dog of a car that could possibly cause him to crash and eliminate any chance of sucess in 2011? I think that 2011 will be the defining moment of his career. He may be gone by monaco if he can't make it work. Regardless, the pressure will be immense.


Personally I do not think he is driving at 90% - I think you only have to look at the way he defends and his aggression in trying to pass.

In the first 6 races MS was improving to the point that he was close to NR but since then the gap has generally got bigger, I do believe this is because MS is experimenting and acting more as a test driver in the remainder of the season. He said himself the remainder of the season would be painful... If he was still focus on 2010 the picture between him and NR would be different, how much different is open to anyone’s opinion but it would be different. My guess going by the first 6 races it would be very close but NR would still have a edge.

Edited by SpeedyS, 02 October 2010 - 05:08.


#6196 arknor

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 02:44

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship. Why would he risk an injury just to gain a few more points? Maybe he is thinking that He can afford to lift because he is riding on his glorious past. He must have written off this season a long time ago so why prove something in a dog of a car that could possibly cause him to crash and eliminate any chance of sucess in 2011? I think that 2011 will be the defining moment of his career. He may be gone by monaco if he can't make it work. Regardless, the pressure will be immense.

sounds ridiculous and telemetry would show it, doubt anyone would would let him drive at 90%.


#6197 Galka

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 05:20

Have any of you considered the possibility that MS is purposely driving at 90%? I remember reading a quote where he said that it didn't matter if he was 4th or 10th if he didn't have a chance at winning the championship.

What? Lack of motivation :rotfl: ? Letting his reputation being trashed by Keke's son just because he doesn't care?
I don't like Schumacher, but you must really hate him if you can imagine that the guy has so little respect for the team that he gives up all efforst as soon as he realizes that this is not a championship car.


#6198 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 05:43

There is nothing inconsistent with what i said regarding fanatism. The words "evil" "greatest" "fan" all feature heavy in the mindset of extremists.

Exactly how do I know when Ross Brawn is lying or telling the truth? Well this isn't about lying or telling the truth (your extremisms yet again) it is about when I choose to agree with him or not. There is no magic formula, just the usage or "reason." ;-)

Where are you from by the way if its not too personal?

Whatever.
Its quite clear from your own admission, that you suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. There is no point debating with you, really.

#6199 man

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 09:58

Whatever.
Its quite clear from your own admission, that you suffer from a severe case of confirmation bias. There is no point debating with you, really.


There is so much passion in your posts - again another extreme statement with the words "severe" and "no point debating". ;-)

So with your rationale, a person can only be considered bias-free if he/she happens to either continuously agree or disagree with a particular person. Thus by your logic if you believe a person is right in his opinion today, you must consider him to be right in everything else he says until for eternity in order for you to be considered bias-free?

Needless to say I'm very curious about your education. ;-)

And yes you are right, I am a human and I do have bias ;-)

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#6200 aditya-now

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 11:07

Seems staggering, doesn't it? 1991.

I was 6 years old then.


Yes, it is staggering - Schumacher has the longest F1 career ever (albeit with an interruptus). Barrichello shows that you can still be fresh after so many years and races.