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#6301 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:32

Nothing like a bit of camaraderie building and "us vs them" ;-)

Erm when did I "accuse" Lifew12 of being a fan of M Schumacher?

Another post of yours based upon pie in the sky. ;-)


Well I would saying that using terms such as "fanatics like yourself" or similarly worded statements are pretty divisive, wouldn't you say?

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#6302 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:43

Pretty clear and obvious, your stats, man. I can´t understand how anyone misses to see the tendency in these statistics. Clearly, Ferrari was a team on the upward rise since LdM set it into motion, and thanks to Willi Weber and Jean Todt Schumacher stepped into a train that was consistently gaining speed. When in 1997 Brawn and Byrne joined, the train gained the final acceleration that was needed to challenge for the WDC.

This apart from the fact that Michael by his Jerez 1997 antics destroyed the vice-championship that he and his team would have so amply deserved that year....



Aditya, the ingredients for success were there, sure;

Massive facilities
LDM at the helm
Massive purchasing power from FIAT money
Todt

....and the train was gathering momentum too. You are correct.

However, they still needed a driver that was capable of delivering consistently; Berger and Alesi were nearing the final years of their careers (Berger more so) while Alesi was anything but consistent. Elsewhere you had Hill (not really a leader IMO, but a great development driver), Hakkinen (loyal to Mclaren), DC (still raw and unproven), Villeneuve (complete novice or a non factor), Irvine (intelligent, fun, great tester but no leader).

Schumacher was the link that synthesise all the factors together IMO and deliver in a way that others could not do. Brawn and Byrne were the final catalysts to bring about the Ferrari resurgence.

I personally can't think of another driver who could deliver what Ferrari wanted; a WDC for the first time since 1979 other than Schumacher. If you take Schumacher, Brawn and Bryne out of the equation (I see them all being inter-linked with another as the formula and familiarity was already there), I think Ferrari's gradual ascent would have plateaued and that championship would still have eluded them.

In short, I don't believe any other driver - aside from Schumacher - would have given them such unparalleled success. The culmination of Schumacher-Todt-Brawn-Bryne can still be seen today in the way Ferrari develop, approach and run their F1 team. That is their legacy.



All in my humble opinion of course.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 06 October 2010 - 10:31.


#6303 baddog

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 20:35

It would be instructive and interesting (and therefore aditya won't do it) to look at a comparison of teams who achieve the modest degree of success Ferrari attained pre-1996 with teams who achieve the greater degree of success they attained beginning in 1996. What you will find is that many many teams attain the former, but stepping up to the latter is exponentially harder..

How many teams have we seen score regular podiums, the occasional pole and even win, good solid points.. but never go anywhere from there?

And how many have become long term regular championship contenders, to the point where it is simply assumed that they will be involved in the race for first place, and where failing to win the championship is considerd a failure?

#6304 man

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 22:58

It would be instructive and interesting (and therefore aditya won't do it) to look at a comparison of teams who achieve the modest degree of success Ferrari attained pre-1996 with teams who achieve the greater degree of success they attained beginning in 1996. What you will find is that many many teams attain the former, but stepping up to the latter is exponentially harder..

How many teams have we seen score regular podiums, the occasional pole and even win, good solid points.. but never go anywhere from there?

And how many have become long term regular championship contenders, to the point where it is simply assumed that they will be involved in the race for first place, and where failing to win the championship is considerd a failure?


Instructive perhaps, interesting? Not really. It's fairly obvious in order to be a top team over a longer period you need a top team of staff. ;-)

#6305 aditya-now

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 23:27

I don't need to read all your posts in full - you just repeat the same stuff again and again.. we know you dislike MS and he's a nothing driver.


Thanks for your consideration and differentiation. I will also start reading posts of others to whom I answer incompletely - an excellent basis for a discussion. Makes it quite comfortable...

#6306 aditya-now

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 23:35

I don't expect you to accept my opinion - life would be drab if we all had the same one, and these places empty - but I do wish you would drop the helpful, to your argument, belief that I have any 'allegiances'; I don't, I love motor racing, and Rene Arnoux has long since retired.



Fine, so let´s end it here - I have to say the Ferrari years from 1982 till 1988 I just loved (Villeneuve, Pironi, Arnoux (these three!!!), Tambay, Alboreto, Johanson, Berger - these were great years and great cars. Mansell (Il leone) in 1989 and 1990 was still great, Prost did not really fit as a Ferrari driver (bringing his type of politics into the team did not work) and it went downwards. Alesi again fitted seamlessly with Villeneuve, Pironi, Arnoux, Alboreto and Berger.

So all in all Ferrari had a great bunch of drivers, Prost, Schumacher, Barrichello and Raikkonen being not the typical Ferrari drivers. The tide has turned, Massa is a real Ferrari driver, Alonso is as well. The team is Italian again, not an international super group.


#6307 aditya-now

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 23:39

Aditya, the ingredients for success were there, sure;

Massive facilities
LDM at the helm
Massive purchasing power from FIAT money
Todt

....and the train was gathering momentum too. You are correct.

However, they still needed a driver that was capable of delivering consistently; Berger and Alesi were nearing the final years of their careers (Berger more so) while Alesi was anything but consistent. Elsewhere you had Hill (not really a leader IMO, but a great development driver), Hakkinen (loyal to Mclaren), DC (still raw and unproven), Villeneuve (complete novice or a non factor), Irvine (intelligent, fun, great tester but no leader).

Schumacher was the link that synthesise all the factors together IMO and deliver in a way that others could not do. Brawn and Byrne were the final catalysts to bring about the Ferrari resurgence.


That´s all very fair and I can fully agree with it. You have put if perfectly. :up: Without the final touches of Schumacher, Brawn and Byrne that "era Ferrari" would never have materialized. What I objected to was the myth that Michael singlehandedly delivered Ferrari from the doldrums.


#6308 aditya-now

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 23:57

It would be instructive and interesting (and therefore aditya won't do it) to look at a comparison of teams who achieve the modest degree of success Ferrari attained pre-1996 with teams who achieve the greater degree of success they attained beginning in 1996. What you will find is that many many teams attain the former, but stepping up to the latter is exponentially harder..

How many teams have we seen score regular podiums, the occasional pole and even win, good solid points.. but never go anywhere from there?

And how many have become long term regular championship contenders, to the point where it is simply assumed that they will be involved in the race for first place, and where failing to win the championship is considerd a failure?



Instructive perhaps, interesting? Not really. It's fairly obvious in order to be a top team over a longer period you need a top team of staff. ;-)


Lotus (started modestly, then, with Jim Clark, attained star power), Ferrari (rose already in the Lauda years like phoenix from the ashes), McLaren (brought back to the top by Ron Dennis after modest showings in the end of the 70s) and Williams (came to the top in 1979 after modest beginnings) are the teams who have done it, historically.

These four teams all managed to be dominantly successful for up to two decades (Lotus in the 60s, 70s; Ferrari in the 90s, 2000s, McLaren in the 80s, 90s, Williams in the 80s, 90s), but longer than that seems impossible, there is always the odd hiatus like Ferrari in the end of 60s, beginning of 70s as well as beginning of the 90s, McLaren in the mid 90s, Williams in the later 2000s, Lotus after Chapmann died and Senna left).

If Alonso manages to steer the Ferrari boat to continued success for the next years, then Ferrari will be the first team in history to go for longer than 20 years in the top echelon - well, he would have to prolong that period of success of Ferrari until up to 2016....

Schumacher for sure could not prolong it in his present form and he was not the first to bring Ferrari back on track, Niki Lauda was, 20 years earlier - as man stated, it is obvious that you need a top team of staff. One driver alone, even if his name is Michael Schumacher, cannot do it.

So I am not sure which point baddog wanted to make, if there was indeed any point other than trying to tickle me.... :lol:

#6309 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 08:28

Fine, so let´s end it here - I have to say the Ferrari years from 1982 till 1988 I just loved (Villeneuve, Pironi, Arnoux (these three!!!), Tambay, Alboreto, Johanson, Berger - these were great years and great cars. Mansell (Il leone) in 1989 and 1990 was still great, Prost did not really fit as a Ferrari driver (bringing his type of politics into the team did not work) and it went downwards. Alesi again fitted seamlessly with Villeneuve, Pironi, Arnoux, Alboreto and Berger.

So all in all Ferrari had a great bunch of drivers, Prost, Schumacher, Barrichello and Raikkonen being not the typical Ferrari drivers. The tide has turned, Massa is a real Ferrari driver, Alonso is as well. The team is Italian again, not an international super group.


I agree. I think the reason you - and I - see the latter group as not being 'typical' Ferrari drivers is because the team, in those years, was not the 'typical Ferrari'. The old romance, the inherent chaos, the over-riding influence of the Old Man himself had gone; it had become a corporate team, another manufacturer in the mix, and it lost that allure - to me, at least. Unfortunately, I can't agree with you that it is any different now - although while I see Massa as a Ferrari man through and through, Alonso is, as far as I'm concerned, a professional racing driver who will go where the winning car and the best resources are. That is, of course, what he should do.

#6310 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 08:37

Can we all go back to the topic, which is missing in last 4-5 pages? If there isn't something to write about the topic, then don't write. Don't make it here like Messenger. You have personal messages for this. Don't make all other to suffer with you history flashes. Ferrari,Alonso,Villeneuve, Pironi, Arnoux, Alboreto and Berger,Lotus in the 60s, 70s; Ferrari in the 90s, 2000s, McLaren in the 80s, 90s, Williams in the 80s, 90s ?????? :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

Edited by ivand911, 07 October 2010 - 08:43.


#6311 baddog

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:10

They just took selectred quotes from that interview the other day and made up a story around it..

Good old Bild..

#6312 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:35

Can we all go back to the topic, which is missing in last 4-5 pages? If there isn't something to write about the topic, then don't write. Don't make it here like Messenger. You have personal messages for this. Don't make all other to suffer with you history flashes. Ferrari,Alonso,Villeneuve, Pironi, Arnoux, Alboreto and Berger,Lotus in the 60s, 70s; Ferrari in the 90s, 2000s, McLaren in the 80s, 90s, Williams in the 80s, 90s ?????? :down: :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:


Maybe we found those topics somewhat more interesting - I certainly do.....

Back to the topic; right, how will Michael announce his retirement at the end of this year?

#6313 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 09:39

Back to the topic; right, how will Michael announce his retirement at the end of this year?

the same press conference where Mika Hakkinen will anounce his comeback

#6314 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 10:44

the same press conference where Mika Hakkinen will anounce his comeback


So he's never going to retire?

#6315 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:12

So he's never going to retire?

He will retire don't worry. I think he is German citizen and they have some age for retiring(maybe 60).
http://img541.images...1286425222.jpg/
http://motorsport.ne...7oct/045wri.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...7oct/060wri.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...7oct/038wri.jpg
http://cache.daylife...2yj5co/610x.jpg
http://cache.daylife...0Ok1Ab/610x.jpg
http://photofile.ru/...4844/120637465/
http://photofile.ru/...4844/120640864/
http://photofile.ru/.../#mainImageLink
http://motorsport.ne...7oct/006wri.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...7oct/065wri.jpg
http://img46.imagesh...1286421622.jpg/

Edited by ivand911, 07 October 2010 - 11:37.


#6316 Johnrambo

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:31

the same press conference where Mika Hakkinen will anounce his comeback


Mika is not coming back.

#6317 Mr2s

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:33

Aditya, the ingredients for success were there, sure;

Massive facilities
LDM at the helm
Massive purchasing power from FIAT money
Todt

....and the train was gathering momentum too. You are correct.

However, they still needed a driver that was capable of delivering consistently; Berger and Alesi were nearing the final years of their careers (Berger more so) while Alesi was anything but consistent. Elsewhere you had Hill (not really a leader IMO, but a great development driver), Hakkinen (loyal to Mclaren), DC (still raw and unproven), Villeneuve (complete novice or a non factor), Irvine (intelligent, fun, great tester but no leader).

Schumacher was the link that synthesise all the factors together IMO and deliver in a way that others could not do. Brawn and Byrne were the final catalysts to bring about the Ferrari resurgence.

I personally can't think of another driver who could deliver what Ferrari wanted; a WDC for the first time since 1979 other than Schumacher. If you take Schumacher, Brawn and Bryne out of the equation (I see them all being inter-linked with another as the formula and familiarity was already there), I think Ferrari's gradual ascent would have plateaued and that championship would still have eluded them.

In short, I don't believe any other driver - aside from Schumacher - would have given them such unparalleled success. The culmination of Schumacher-Todt-Brawn-Bryne can still be seen today in the way Ferrari develop, approach and run their F1 team. That is their legacy.



All in my humble opinion of course.



You've pretty much summed up what a poor era it was for talent once the true greats had departed, and why schumacher found the last 6 years, with the arrival of Alonso, so empty.
His own father advised him to retire when someone better came along, which he did. Why an earth he though he could challenge Alonso, but this time as a winner, let alone Hamilton, is beyond me.
For all his strong points, he was never going to do a Mansell.

#6318 arknor

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:40

You've pretty much summed up what a poor era it was for talent once the true greats had departed, and why schumacher found the last 6 years, with the arrival of Alonso, so empty.
His own father advised him to retire when someone better came along, which he did. Why an earth he though he could challenge Alonso, but this time as a winner, let alone Hamilton, is beyond me.
For all his strong points, he was never going to do a Mansell.

yea cos now we have the webbers , heidfield , petrov , hulkenberg , de la rosa , kova , kbayashi , button , massa etc zomg wesome talented lineup of super drivers.

people like to pretend f1 is filled with all this talent.

lets face it webber was never considered nothing more than "good" what does this say for vettel? other than the RB is an epic car...

button was never really that impressive even rubens gave him a fight , for the first time in rubens career he must have felt alive. :rotfl:

apart from schumacher , alonso & hamilton theres nothing which could be considered a true awesome sauce talent on the grid.

one might be passed it already , another probably doesnt have much more drive left and the last one still has to improve a bit and start finishing races

#6319 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:47

apart from schumacher , alonso & hamilton theres nothing which could be considered a true awesome sauce talent on the grid.


Whether you can consider Schumacher a 'true awesome talent' anymore is an ongoing theme in this thread. He was once, without a doubt, but now he's lagging behind Rosberg, and I doubt you consider him a 'true awesome talent'. I thing you're gith about Hamilton but I would safely reckon Alonso has plenty of years left in him - correct me if i'm wrong, but he's still teh low side of 30!

Edited by Lifew12, 07 October 2010 - 11:49.


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#6320 Massa_f1

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 11:50

You've pretty much summed up what a poor era it was for talent once the true greats had departed, and why Schumacher found the last 6 years, with the arrival of Alonso, so empty.
His own father advised him to retire when someone better came along, which he did. Why an earth he though he could challenge Alonso, but this time as a winner, let alone Hamilton, is beyond me.
For all his strong points, he was never going to do a Mansell.



Oh please i am sick of this nonsense about how bad the talent was when Schumacher was at his peak.

The talent this year is so overrated IMO If Hakkinen or Schumacher were driving this years Red Bull at there peak they would of won the championship by now.

People go on about how consistent these drivers are this year when really they are anything but.

#6321 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:15

People go on about how consistent these drivers are this year when really they are anything but.


It's an intersting point you make there ( and I'm not one to believe that there was no talent around in the Schumacher/Hakkinen era) and it may be somewhat contradictory; surely we have fine drivers who have been pretty consistent - relative to each other - and that's one reason why there is a close fight for the title?

#6322 Polle

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:25

You often get the argument that the driver's during Schumacher's prime were no good, compared to this current crop. I always believed that it was the car that exaggerated how the drivers are perceived. How quickly a top tier car could disappear into the distance during the 90's was insane compared to now.

#6323 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:31

I agree. I think the reason you - and I - see the latter group as not being 'typical' Ferrari drivers is because the team, in those years, was not the 'typical Ferrari'. The old romance, the inherent chaos, the over-riding influence of the Old Man himself had gone; it had become a corporate team, another manufacturer in the mix, and it lost that allure - to me, at least. Unfortunately, I can't agree with you that it is any different now - although while I see Massa as a Ferrari man through and through, Alonso is, as far as I'm concerned, a professional racing driver who will go where the winning car and the best resources are. That is, of course, what he should do.


To me, Ferrari is halfway back to the original "chaotic" hotblooded and very Italian Ferrari since 2008. Todt gone made a telling influence.

I agree, Massa is a Ferrari man through and through, and, although Alonso is a professional racing driver, he is red through and through as well, now, that they are not his enemy team anymore. His heart breathes Ferrari, the "passione" will leave its marks on his Spanish heart.

Michael never had that passione, he did not breathe Ferrari but he and Weber used the Scuderia as a platform for their success in the sport and in merchandising as well.


Oh please i am sick of this nonsense about how bad the talent was when Schumacher was at his peak.

The talent this year is so overrated IMO If Hakkinen or Schumacher were driving this years Red Bull at there peak they would of won the championship by now.

People go on about how consistent these drivers are this year when really they are anything but.


These drivers are more consistent than Michael Schumacher at least. Or, seen from another perspective, no one is driving as consistently bad as Schumacher.

We can laugh about the BILD "interview" - good old BILD indeed. Yet, they have always been seismographic and the tide is turning in Germany what concerns Schumacher. He does not have limitless time on his hands anymore - he will be gone sooner than some here on the BB might wish.


#6324 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:33

How quickly a top tier car could disappear into the distance during the 90's was insane compared to now.


How quickly Rosberg disappeared into the distance from Schumacher in the same car in Singapore was indeed insane.


#6325 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:36

Alonso is a professional racing driver, he is red through and through as well, now, that they are not his enemy team anymore. His heart breathes Ferrari, the "passione" will leave its marks on his Spanish heart.


mmm, I can't see it, I'm afraid! Put it this way - had Alonso met anyone other than Hamilton at Mclaren he would still be there now.

#6326 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:42

mmm, I can't see it, I'm afraid! Put it this way - had Alonso met anyone other than Hamilton at Mclaren he would still be there now.


You are right concerning having stayed at McLaren, but I think he really enjoys his time at the Scuderia and has become more of a Ferrari driver in the classic mould than Michael Schumacher ever was.


#6327 Mr2s

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:44

Oh please i am sick of this nonsense about how bad the talent was when Schumacher was at his peak.

The talent this year is so overrated IMO If Hakkinen or Schumacher were driving this years Red Bull at there peak they would of won the championship by now.


Schumacher competed for titles, against the following team pairings, Hill/Coulthard , Hakkinen/Coulthard, Villeneuve/Frentzen.

Hill and Hakkinen his greatest rivals. No wonder Alonso found it easy once he got a reasonable car.


:lol:



#6328 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:49

How quickly Rosberg disappeared into the distance from Schumacher in the same car in Singapore was indeed insane.

If you were watching the race you can clearly see that Barichello was slowing him down until the moment Webber pass Michael. Webber pass him because Michael rear tyres were gone, he slide so bad in the corner like Koba lap before which help Webber very much. But good try by you, like always . :wave: At least you are on the topic.

Edited by ivand911, 07 October 2010 - 12:50.


#6329 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:52

Schumacher competed for titles, against the following team pairings, Hill/Coulthard , Hakkinen/Coulthard, Villeneuve/Frentzen.

Hill and Hakkinen his greatest rivals. No wonder Alonso found it easy once he got a reasonable car.


:lol:

And much better tyres in 2005. :rotfl:


#6330 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:53

If you were watching the race you can clearly see that Barichello was slowing him down until the moment Webber pass Michael. Webber pass him because Michael rear tyres were gone, he slide so bad in the corner like Koba lap before which help Webber very much. But good try by you, like always . :wave:


So Barrichello was holding Schumacher up until Webber passed Schumi? How on earth did Schumacher get stuck behind Barrichello? Why was Rosberg not stuck behind Barrichello?
:up:


Greetings, Ivan, did miss you the last few days! :wave:

I will be in Bulgaria again from November 4th till 7th, Sofia, Varna and Plovdiv. Always nice to be in your country, not all there are Schumacher fans, by the way. ;)


#6331 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 12:56

And much better tyres in 2005. :rotfl:


Yes, the tyre excuse is nothing new in 2010, it started already in 2005. In my reckoning Schumacher had retired inwardly the moment things were not as easy for him anymore as in 2004. 2006 was a last remnant of his previous capacity, but Fernando´s driving spirit emasculated him then and there, not even the FIA could help Michael´s 2006 campaign....

#6332 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 13:00

So Barrichello was holding Schumacher up until Webber passed Schumi? How on earth did Schumacher get stuck behind Barrichello? Why was Rosberg not stuck behind Barrichello?
:up:

Maybe because Bari was 6th and Michael 9th and Nico 7th. Can be such easy answer? Michael was close to pass Bari too, just next left corner was helping Bari. And Kubica at the start almost pass Nico.
Welcome in Bulgaria.


#6333 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 13:06

FIA Thursday press conference - Japan
http://www.formula1....0/10/11350.html

Q: Michael, a remarkable record here. Six wins and half of your starts from pole position as well. What are your feelings about this circuit?
Michael Schumacher: Well, from a driver’s point of view it is probably the highlight of the year. Mentioning the first sector as before that’s the one. That’s what you look forward to. From a driver’s point of view that is the ultimate challenge and I really look forward to this one. It has been through all the years very exceptional.

Q: What about your preparations for Korea? What have you been able to do?
MS: There is not much that can be done from that point of view in terms of simulator. Yes, we have a simulator but nobody has been able to drive the track so, at least for me, it is not anything that I make use of. I will go, as I did in Singapore, arrive there and see the nature of the track and get used to it as I normally do.

Q: You have been asked this many times, but we are getting towards the end of this comeback year for you. Just summarise how you have seen it so far this year.
MS: Well, it has been a much tougher year than we expected. If you think of the performance that the team was able to do last year, expectations were high. We have not been able to fulfil those expectations. At the same time it has been a long-term project and if I look back at how long it took with Benetton and with Ferrari to build up a team and then finally to take success it has never been possible to do that in the short term. The nature of the fact that the team used to be a big team, such as the top three teams, then was reduced to a much smaller team during last year due to circumstances that everybody knows, we are now a rather small team compared to the top running teams. That, in the situation that we are right now, makes it, naturally, a little bit more difficult. But then we have made decisions and steps to get back to the winning route although naturally it will take time.
MS: Principally, you always follow the same path. In Formula One, overtaking is very difficult. The nature of tracks, such as Singapore, don’t make it any easier. The straights are rather short and it needs special circumstances such as probably Robert (Kubica) had in the race, having fresher tyres, having the car with the most top speed. Only with those kind of circumstances may you get into a position to overtake. But under normal circumstances it’s tough. Probably in Brazil and on some exceptional tracks it is possible and on others it is simply impossible, so that’s the nature of our business. Naturally, if you have an opportunity you will go for it and having two cars close to each other then occasionally certain contact will happen, that’s unavoidable.
Q: (MC) But it doesn’t reflect on any particular person?
MS: No, not at all. I think that’s the general situation and I don’t think in Singapore we saw anything that changes the general trend.

Q: (Andrea Cremonesi - La Gazzetta dello Sport) It’s a question for Michael. Before, you talked about a longer period project for Mercedes and you mentioned Benetton and Ferrari. In those days, you were in your mid-twenties and then in your mid-thirties. Now you are a little bit older. Is there any risk that time will run out before you find the target and is there any risk that you can work and somebody else can reap the fruits of your work, like Nico (Rosberg) for example?
MS: That’s why, right from the beginning, we talked about a three-year situation. I hope that within this time I can collect the fruits of it. Certainly we are on the right path. If I see modifications and mistakes and the learning curve – all what has been done to improve next year makes me very confident and comfortable and again, the target is to reduce what used to take four to five years to reduce it in time, so that I take the benefit from it.
Q: (Bob McKenzie - The Daily Express) Michael, with your experience, if you were having a bet where would your money go on the championship, among the five contenders now?
MS: If you want to lose money, you bet on one of those guys because none can be right and can be correct. If you look at this year, I think it has been a very exceptional year: for the reason to have so many drivers still in the championship and for the fact that there have been so many up and down happenings, retirements and so on, that I don’t think you could have expected, so I wouldn’t bet any money on anybody. I cross fingers for one that I’m good friends with, but that’s about it.

Q: (Bob McKenzie - The Daily Express) Who would that be?
MS: I’m good friends with Sebastian (Vettel), so my fingers are crossed for him.
Q: (Frederic Ferret - L’Equipe) Question to Michael and Lewis: what do you need to have a winning car in Suzuka, and do you think the Red Bull can be beaten this weekend?

LH: At this circuit - well, I’ve only been here once, so Michael is probably the best one to start, you’ve won here six times, so there’s no one better to answer that.

MS: In a way, it is a high challenge track, and drivers, yes indeed, can give a great input on this kind of track, especially in the first sector, but nevertheless, the car is mega-important because of this first sector. If the response from the front end in particular, with all these longish corners, is weak, you suffer quite a lot and in this respect, looking at the nature of the Red Bull car, I think it’s going to be very strong in my view, but then I know that McLaren is pushing very hard on developments, so we will see whether they can keep up or not. That’s going to be a tough one.

Q: (Yuuki Ishihara -Tokyo Sankei Sports) Michael, people say you are master of Suzuka. You won six times here in Suzuka, many times more than anybody else. I was wondering if you could share some secrets, do you have any reasons why you have been so good here in Suzuka?

MS: I don’t think it is naturally only Suzuka because if you just go for this statistic I have a couple of other tracks where I have been winning many times. It’s just that I’ve been around so long! That’s why maybe the number is so high, plus working with a very professional and fantastic team and doing my best on top of this. That’s what has given the results.

Edited by ivand911, 07 October 2010 - 13:07.


#6334 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 13:21

Maybe because Bari was 6th and Michael 9th and Nico 7th. Can be such easy answer? Michael was close to pass Bari too, just next left corner was helping Bari. And Kubica at the start almost pass Nico.
Welcome in Bulgaria.


So why was Nico 7th, and Michael only 9th? Can be such an easy question? At least he could have made up for his weak qualifying in the race...


MS: I don’t think it is naturally only Suzuka because if you just go for this statistic I have a couple of other tracks where I have been winning many times. It’s just that I’ve been around so long! That’s why maybe the number is so high, plus working with a very professional and fantastic team and doing my best on top of this. That’s what has given the results.



Nice to see Michael becoming more humble and realistic - this is a side of Michael that I´d like to see more often. Kudos to him for this! :up:
Michael has been confirming what we have discussed here in the last days - that he was not THE ingredient, but the icing on the cake, if you will. That´s what has given the results - in Michael´s own words. I am curious if his fans take note of this statement.

#6335 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 13:36

So why was Nico 7th, and Michael only 9th? Can be such an easy question? At least he could have made up for his weak qualifying in the race...

Nice to see Michael becoming more humble and realistic - this is a side of Michael that I´d like to see more often. Kudos to him for this! :up:
Michael has been confirming what we have discussed here in the last days - that he was not THE ingredient, but the icing on the cake, if you will. That´s what has given the results - in Michael´s own words. I am curious if his fans take note of this statement.

I don't think he ever said that he achieve his results alone? He always say that it is team work.
And he was behind Nico at the start because he was 0,259s slower in Qualy. Real problem as I said before in the race was heavy car+SS tyres+MS combo. Results this year with this combo was not good. They know that and I don't know why they continue to stay on this tyres ,when they were done maybe before lap 10. Truth is they miss very good opportunity at the first SC to pit. If the Leader of WDC is pitting then, have to show them something?

Edited by ivand911, 07 October 2010 - 13:43.


#6336 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 13:52

I don't think he ever said that he achieve his results alone? He always say that it is team work.


I know, and I never had a problem with that. While you were not on the BB the last days, Ivan, there was a discussion going on that MS was THE ingredient in Ferrari from 1996 onwards - this is what I could not accept (neither did Michael ever claim it), but his fans have built that myth out of their need to put Michael on an even higher pedestal.

So it was nice seeing Michael himself debunk that myth - shows the man has some honesty and realism.

Truth is they miss very good opportunity at the first SC to pit. If the Leader of WDC is pitting then, have to show them something?


If your name is Michael Schumacher, maybe?

I think you are very right, they missed an opportunity to pit him at the right time, but then again, Michael has trouble going longer stints on the same tyres, so that was probably their rationale behind that decision.


#6337 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 14:21

there was a discussion going on that MS was THE ingredient in Ferrari from 1996 onwards - this is what I could not accept (neither did Michael ever claim it), but his fans have built that myth out of their need to put Michael on an even higher pedestal.


You should mention that it was me - i.e. not one of his fans - who was arguing that point, as it does carry some relevance to your stance.


#6338 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 14:22

You should mention that it was me - i.e. not one of his fans - who was arguing that point, as it does carry some relevance to your stance.


You were one of those, Life, but I am sure you do agree with Michael.


#6339 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 14:24

You were one of those, Life, but I am sure you do agree with Michael.


I never disagreed, and without going over it again, my point was all that success would never have happened without him. The odd thing is, even though that clearly indicates he was very much the man at the centre of it all, you actually agree with it!

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#6340 Jan.W

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 14:42

Nice to see Michael becoming more humble and realistic -


MS has always been too humble, compared to the likes of Senna or Prost.


#6341 cheapracer

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 14:45

Mika is not coming back.


Bild say he is.


#6342 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 14:47

Bild say he is.


SOURCE?

#6343 cheapracer

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 14:54

SOURCE?


Tomato.

You should keep up with the threads :lol:

FWIW http://uk.autoblog.c...with-f1-return/


#6344 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 16:58

Tomato.

You should keep up with the threads :lol:

FWIW http://uk.autoblog.c...with-f1-return/


Thanks for the link, cheapracer, remarkable article.

I think they all should come back: Mika Hakkinen, Ralf Schumacher and David Coulthard. Together with Michael Schumacher they will show the young drivers of today what F1 racing really is all about! :up:


#6345 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 17:01

I never disagreed, and without going over it again, my point was all that success would never have happened without him. The odd thing is, even though that clearly indicates he was very much the man at the centre of it all, you actually agree with it!


Naturally I agree with that. I just do not subsribe to the theory that Michael would have been the only one to pull it off, given that super team. Mika Hakkinen and Jacques Villeneuve could have done it as well. This is a common mistake of the Schumacher fans to put Michael on a pedestal above the other drivers, when he had extraordinary circumstances helping him achieve his career statistics.

#6346 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 17:36

SOURCE?


Posted Image

#6347 Lifew12

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 17:43

Naturally I agree with that. I just do not subsribe to the theory that Michael would have been the only one to pull it off, given that super team. Mika Hakkinen and Jacques Villeneuve could have done it as well. This is a common mistake of the Schumacher fans to put Michael on a pedestal above the other drivers, when he had extraordinary circumstances helping him achieve his career statistics.


As I said, I don't want to get into the whole thing again but you are missing some vital points; Hakkinen didn't do what Michael did, and Villeneuve didn't do what Michael did, and neither was pursued by the people at Ferrari to be the one to drive the car. Michael was, and the fact that he has 7 world championships and 91 races forever puts him on a pedestal ahead of the other drivers of his era, whether you like him or not. I don't think the circumstances were extraordinary as such - they didn't, after all, appear out of nowhere. He, and others, made those circumstances, created them carefully and meticulously, while teh rest failed to do so. I seriously doubt that Hakkinen - fan as I am - would have had the same ability thanks to a more lackadaisical approach, and we know from the BAR debacle that Villeneuve did not have it either.

I don't think it's so much a 'theory' that Michael was the only one who could have pulled it off - it's a historically proven fact; he did it, and we all watched it happen.

This is what I was getting at the other day with my comments about you insisting on putting the man down all the time; given what we've all watched unfold and occur over his time in the sport it's impossible to accept and admit anything other than the fact that he was the most influential and driven racing driver of the time. Without him, Ferrari certainly would not have pulled off what they did.


#6348 aditya-now

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 18:20

I don't think it's so much a 'theory' that Michael was the only one who could have pulled it off - it's a historically proven fact; he did it, and we all watched it happen.


The comparison with JV and MH is not a proven fact, because you would have to run two parallel universes to do the comparison, one with Jacques Villeneuve at Ferrari and one with Mika Hakkinen at Ferrari.

Other than that, yours, as well as mine, is just a theory. I sometimes wonder how scientific people can get - if no one else was in the situation that Michael was in, how does that prove that no one else would have done it?

Without him, Ferrari certainly would not have pulled off what they did.


Which is exactly what "certainly" can not be proved just by claiming it. Others could have done it as well - this also cannot be proved. Yet, it does not prove that Michael is the only one who could have done it. I suggest a course in logical thinking at your nearby university.


#6349 ivand911

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 19:53

You have this discussion 2-3 days ago. For now it is proven fact that only Michael did it. Everything else is speculation. I also doubt that other driver starting from 1996 like Michael in Ferrari could do it. Especially without Brawn and Bourne from Benetton. I think they(Ferrari+ this driver) can achieve better result than Alessi and Berger, but not such huge success. But, I can't bet about the last one. Now, lets sleep we have FP1/FP2 early in the morning. :)

Edited by ivand911, 07 October 2010 - 19:58.


#6350 arknor

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Posted 07 October 2010 - 20:08

You have this discussion 2-3 days ago. For now it is proven fact that only Michael did it. Everything else is speculation. I also doubt that other driver starting from 1996 like Michael in Ferrari could do it. Especially without Brawn and Bourne from Benetton. I think they(Ferrari+ this driver) can achieve better result than Alessi and Berger, but not such huge success. But, I can't bet about the last one. Now, lets sleep we have FP1/FP2 early in the morning. :)

steadiily improving each year means almost nothing aswell , weve all seen teams steadily improving and then fall off to nowhere again even quicker.

some teams managed to be world championship dominating cars for 1-2 seasons then fell off a cliff.

maybe someone else could have won 1-2 championships at ferrari but it takes something special to be championship contenders every year for around a decade