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#6401 Paco

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 14:24

OMG #1... shades of 2011 at Mercedes already on it's way. All the changes Mercedes have been making to make MS comfortable are starting to take form and MS is already ahead of Rosberg. Imagine what will happen next season!

OMG #2... Michael takes Nico chassis for a spin and is instantly faster then Nico and Nico has the same complaints Michaels had all year. Overnight, I'm sure they'll find something that was wrong on Michaels car all year... Might have to do with a rogue software engineer tampering with Michaels settings!

OMG #3... HEADLINE "MICHAEL IS FINALLY BACK!"

ROTFLMAO...

just had to .. couldn't resist ... like soooo many on here would actually believe those to b true..

ALL JOKES ASIDE. Friday's results. Meaningless for Mercedes.

Edited by Paco, 08 October 2010 - 14:26.


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#6402 MightyMoose

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 15:16

I've read this thread with some bemusement at the considerable trolling & sheer pleasure in ridiculing Schumacher for his performances throughout his career. Now if we were solely concentrating on 2010, everyone will surely agree he's been very disappointing and not living up to the expectations set at the beginning of the year. However it's also clear that there are some circumstances that have led to his results not actually reflecting the performance showed.

I have generally seen him being very racey on the opening laps, often picking up 3 or 4 positions (yes, to satisfy the trolls he's able to because he did such a sh!t job in qualifying...zzzz), from there it's a slow slide backwards primarily due to the Merc being dog slow on the straights (has to run lots of downforce to accommodate the below par chassis, the Merc engine is of course one of the best). Take a slow car on the straight, with tyres that the driver can't get to work and you have a sitting target. I don't see NR gaining any postions throughout the race either which would tend to back up the gutless straightline performance.

Sidenote: How is it that when Button and others struggle with getting the tyres to work it's a perfectly acceptable excuse, but not in MS case?

Race strategy has been primarily crap from MERC this year, both drivers have been screwed out of positions by poor pit calls etc, when Ross Brawn worked at Ferrari, they often made McLaren appear silly..... perhaps he needs to take more control over the race engineers decision making process, because some of the teamwork has been amateur not only in the race, but also qualifying. Monaco last lap move was brilliant however, the fact it cost them not only the position, but any points at all only raised no outrage because it was MS.

Ok, now to his history, there is a thread elsewhere detailing the driver of the decade... unsurprisingly MS is leading that poll substantially. To claim "many other drivers could have done what he did at Ferrari" is an insult to what was achieved there. When he signed for Ferrari in 96, that car was a truck, it drove as ugly as it looked, he was the reigning champion who could have gone anywhere he wanted, he was attracted by the dream of bringing Ferrari to the top. Ferrari were hardly on an upswing at that time either, they'd won 2 races in 5 years. It's generally accepted that when Berger/Alesi tried the 95 Benetton they couldn't get near his times, when he drove the 95 Ferrari, he went faster than they'd been all season.

Out of his 7 titles, which seasons was he in clearly the best team? 94,2002,2004 - maybe 2001 as well. 95 is open to debate, 2003 went with the tyres as to which team was faster each weekend. MS elevated the team beyond what it should have been capable of. Yes, he used all the advantages he could, yes his on track ethics were questionable on a nauseatingly regular basis, but he "wasn't only the best number 1, he's the best number 2 as well" -- Eddie Irvine said that, and let's face it, praise comes from him as often as Haley's comet.

Todt, Brawn, Byrne & Schumacher created a super team, some will get more praise than others in that group, but to downplay any one of them is to be blinkered to the facts. Where they spotless? Absolutely not, they tried every possible trick in the book, some of them even worked. Austria 02 will always remain a black spot on the F1 history (though why people, especially Barrichello omit to mention the 3 races he was gifted that season as payback remains a question as to their impartiality).

Overall I expected/hoped for more this season, I remain convinced that the ability though dimmed, could still be enough for MS to win again.... time will tell.. Regardless he deserves respect for his career imo.
MM

#6403 Lifew12

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 15:36

I know that Ascari won many more, which is why you surprise me with your Schumacherisms. Also, Michael may not have survived the 50s with his driving style, bumping into other people´s cars, Silverstone 1999 etc....


Of course, a Michael in the 50's would have been a different Michael to that of now. I was simply explaining my reasoning for suggesting the non-championship races from the earlier eras should be looked at. I find it rather sad that they are overlooked and largely forgotten these days.

Ah, so you do know a little bit of F1 history


I know a lot of F1 history, my friend, even if I say it myself. I prefer to refer to Grands Prix rather than f1 as I recognise the sport is over a hundred years old not just 60 (or, as many would have us think, 20!). I am passionate about my motor sport history and have a library of books that cover every aspect, every era, etc. My main interest lies in the 1930's and the 1980's, two era's poles apart but with quite a lot in common. I could, if you wish, reel off a list of important, repected, members of the 1950's Ferrari teams, but you know that so I won't bother. My point is simply that in every era, at every team, there are peopl who are very clever, respected and talented. It was the same in 1906 as it is now. The only difference is th area that is given the most attention has changed. In the 1950's the engine was king. That's why Lampredi is worth a mention.

For the 1970s you obviously draw a blank: Ferrari in the 1970s were utterly disorganized, the term "grande casino" had become a mainstay for characterising the team in those days. Niki Lauda, Luca di Montezemolo and Mauro Forghieri pulled together what they could, but it was in no way on the level of the 1990s super team, from which Schumacher benefited very nicely.


You still miss my point. In the 1970's Ferrari were just about the most professional team in F1 with the best personnel possible. The 1990's level of professionalism - let alone that of the early 80's - had not been arrived at. Compared to the rest, Ferrari was a superb operation running at great levels of efficiency. You have to look at these thigns in context, rather than in comparison to today.

I think Mika Hakkinen could have achieved the same success


Well. we'll disagree on that one. I don't think he would.

The "proofs" you have put forward are at best claims, no scientific hard facts. Neither are mine, as this subject cannot be proven, neither one way nor the other. So once again, let us agree to disagree - if you can´t, it also says something about you.


I can, but you should really consider the reasons why it was Michael Schumacher, and not any other driver, who ended up in that super team, with those beneficial contracrts, with those fantastic people, and not, say, hakkinen, Hill or Villeneuve. That is really the most telling point of all. It didn't happen just by chance.


#6404 aditya-now

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 15:38

OMG #1... shades of 2011 at Mercedes already on it's way. All the changes Mercedes have been making to make MS comfortable are starting to take form and MS is already ahead of Rosberg. Imagine what will happen next season!

OMG #2... Michael takes Nico chassis for a spin and is instantly faster then Nico and Nico has the same complaints Michaels had all year. Overnight, I'm sure they'll find something that was wrong on Michaels car all year... Might have to do with a rogue software engineer tampering with Michaels settings!

OMG #3... HEADLINE "MICHAEL IS FINALLY BACK!"

ROTFLMAO...

just had to .. couldn't resist ... like soooo many on here would actually believe those to b true..

ALL JOKES ASIDE. Friday's results. Meaningless for Mercedes.


No joking - it´s good to see Michael doing well on a circuit he loves. Brings back some of the old feeling. If Michael is finally back we shall see, but to have next year a possible septet fighting for the WDC (Alonso, Schumacher, Hamilton, Button, Webber, Rosberg, Vettel) is certainly a mouth-watering prospect. So roll on 2011, and let´s hope that Mercedes GP produce a car that suits Michael´s requirements, it will be maybe an even more marvellous season than 2010....


#6405 Urawa

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 15:44

"it´s good to see Michael doing well on a circuit he loves"

I doubt that´s a factor. It was predictable he would do well here simply because of the track layout.
He still has what it takes for those fast turns. Suzuka lacks slow sections so there is not much where he can struggle.
That´s also why I believe there is something to come for next year, I would be more worried if he would struggle in S1 at Suzuka or S2 in Spa - but he isn´t.

Edited by Urawa, 08 October 2010 - 15:44.


#6406 chrisblades85

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 15:44

Interesting to see what DC put in his column in Autosport this week about Schuey. And considering he has more eason to dislike the bloke, more than some t.v viewers. I'll respect his view more than some others.

#6407 Massa_f1

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 15:50

Interesting to see what DC put in his column in Autosport this week about Schuey. And considering he has more eason to dislike the bloke, more than some t.v viewers. I'll respect his view more than some others.



what did he say?

#6408 arknor

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 15:59

Schumi out if...

http://www.bild.de/B...n-mercedes.html

Q. (Alan Baldwin – Reuters) Norbert, I gather that there's a story from Bild saying that Mercedes have given Michael Schumacher an ultimatum to shape up or get out at the end of next season. Can you just give a comment on that, or a reaction?

NH: Well, this is an interpretation of what was said, but of course there was no ultimatum. I think Michael again showed today his class, his full commitment. We are currently a little bit handicapped with our car but I have no complaints and no regrets that we're going to achieve our target. We need to work hard. As I said before in a similar conference, we are sticking together and Michael is, for me, as good as he ever was and probably even better. He's relaxed, concentrated. He doesn't need anybody to defend him, certainly not me but we are very happy with the job he's doing and we need to give Nico (Rosberg) and him a better car. I think it's absolutely obvious that Nico has so far extracted what was possible from the car. Only on a very few occasions was this not the case. I think he learned a lot with Williams and if you would name one of the top guys that are currently young and experienced in Formula One you would certainly mention Nico. So Nico is a very good benchmark for probably everybody in the field. You would never know that, because you're only driving one car for one team but it's not easy for anybody to compete against such a guy and Michael does that quite well, not always in qualifying but if you look throughout the season, if you take into consideration that he was not in Formula One for three years, we are heading in the right direction and there is certainly not an ultimatum.

#6409 chrisblades85

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 16:00

I haven't got it on me, but he mentioned the fact EJ said he would sack him, but Michael is a big part of Merc strategy, but hasn't really delivered the car.. A lot depends on next year, saying if they do a good car, he could be the darling of F1 again.

But he's not done/doing a good job this year and getting involved in too many incidents and Rosberg is beating him way too often.

Come the 1st racer next season we will be able to see whether he's up/capable of it if the car is.


Like I said, I haven't got the actual article on me. But It's along the line of that. It was criticism but optimistic criticism, if that makes sense.



#6410 cheapracer

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 16:32

yea which was in reply to your post saying nico was held up by ms in "Australia, Monaco, Turkey, Valencia, Hungary and Spa"


Don't you have to be behind to be held up?

- and now people are pulling mid 1970's excuses for Schumachers success ..... ??

Edited by cheapracer, 08 October 2010 - 16:59.


#6411 iakhtar

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 17:02

Agreed.

Remember no matter what. There will be a reason for why Schumacher beats Rosberg, if it's FP - it's only FP. If it's the race, Nico had issues. If it's scrabble, Schumacher got lucky with the letters. It's an utterly pointless challenge.

You have to understand these guys who dislike Schumacher have had to put up with seasons of Schumacher utterly dominating and 5 years in a row of Championships... they've gone absolutely insane watching that and the only thing they have now is an off come back season and they're milking it for everything it's wroth, milking it to death. They need this moment, so let them have it, ha!


Haha brilliant!



#6412 arknor

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 17:06

Don't you have to be behind to be held up?

- and now people are pulling mid 1970's excuses for Schumachers success ..... ??

are you 2 people trapped in the same body? because you dont apear to be the same person posting on your account this morning , or you were drunk and dont remember what you said, its not me pulling stuff up from the 70s?

#6413 cheapracer

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 17:23

In that case I will give the full truths about what kind of a person schumacher was and especially put attention to the 2010 season where Mighty Michael sure has shown his greatness :rotfl:


You would sit your Grandson on your knee and tell him (invent) nasty stuff rather than inspire him to greatness?

Schumacher is and has been an inspiration to millions of kids (and big kids) who see the 260 good races while others seemingly revolve their lives around 4 races.

I know which side of the fence I want to be :cool:




#6414 cheapracer

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 17:25

are you 2 people trapped in the same body? because you dont apear to be the same person posting on your account this morning , or you were drunk and dont remember what you said, its not me pulling stuff up from the 70s?


Look at the post from a different view  ;)


#6415 Boing 2

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 17:36

You would sit your Grandson on your knee and tell him (invent) nasty stuff rather than inspire him to greatness?

Schumacher is and has been an inspiration to millions of kids (and big kids) who see the 260 good races while others seemingly revolve their lives around 4 races.

I know which side of the fence I want to be :cool:


Look at it another way, would you like to teach your kids that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you win in the end or would you like them to have some higher values?

#6416 tifosi4life

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 18:17

Look at it another way, would you like to teach your kids that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you win in the end or would you like them to have some higher values?


I would like to see the list of saints in the cars... I think its pretty short. Maybe once the top drivers have the amount of years under their belts as MS can we truly compare who has higher values.

#6417 Boing 2

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 18:30

I would like to see the list of saints in the cars... I think its pretty short. Maybe once the top drivers have the amount of years under their belts as MS can we truly compare who has higher values.


well, considering he was dripping with controversy after his 3rd full season i don't see why career length comes into it.


#6418 JackTorrance

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 18:48

well, considering he was dripping with controversy after his 3rd full season i don't see why career length comes into it.

He was also dripping with mind blowing drives by then. And he publicly tried to wipe the slate clean with Hill at that adelaide press conference.
Always try to find some compassion to remorsefull people. He who is without sin cast the first stone.

#6419 tifosi4life

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 18:51

well, considering he was dripping with controversy after his 3rd full season i don't see why career length comes into it.

I'm just stating that all have a drive to win, and MANY have done questionable things to get to the top step. Not sure if professional sports / business is an example that I would at least use to teach my son ethics. Just my 2 cents. Cheers!

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#6420 BRK

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 02:59

Agreed.

Remember no matter what. There will be a reason for why Schumacher beats Rosberg, if it's FP - it's only FP. If it's the race, Nico had issues. If it's scrabble, Schumacher got lucky with the letters. It's an utterly pointless challenge.

You have to understand these guys who dislike Schumacher have had to put up with seasons of Schumacher utterly dominating and 5 years in a row of Championships... they've gone absolutely insane watching that and the only thing they have now is an off come back season and they're milking it for everything it's wroth, milking it to death. They need this moment, so let them have it, ha!


Spot-on! :up:

#6421 cheapracer

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 05:38

well, considering he was dripping with controversy after his 3rd full season i don't see why career length comes into it.


WTF? Dripping with controversy? :rotfl:

The only controversy in my mind is how the hell can a driver be black flagged from a race for going in front on the warm up lap and why it took so long for the Stewards to impose it?? Schumacher was told by the team to stay out while they tried to get their heads around such an idiotic decision with the Stewards, which eventually was changed to a 5 second stop/go penalty that Schumacher served and that should have been the end of it but .....

Then theres the plank controversy at Spa, clearly the car (while way out in front and won the race too) slid on it's belly on the curb for a long time damaging the plank but unfortunately the rules didn't cover that type of damage (but were changed immediately after) - nothing but deserved sympathy for MS for that controversy.

Without that absolute idiotic 3 race ban for the warm up lap and the DSQ for the plank BS, Hill didn't stand a chance in hell in the 1994 WDC, Schumacher soundly flogged him in all but 2 races and heres the chart to remind you ....

http://en.wikipedia....final_standings

... what it doesn't tell you on that chart is that Schumacher drove to 1st place at Spa and 2nd place at Britain by merit but the points were taken from him, Schumacher rightfully and morally won the 1994 WDC but a number of people will just scream Adelaide 1994 where Hill ran into him from behind (you can't ram when you're in front) without a single consideration or mention of the other 15 races especially Belgium and Britain.

Besides that was all in 1994, please do tell me of all the controversy that was to be had in '92 and '93 ..... ??

Edited by cheapracer, 09 October 2010 - 05:41.


#6422 aditya-now

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:19

Without that absolute idiotic 3 race ban for the warm up lap and the DSQ for the plank BS, Hill didn't stand a chance in hell in the 1994 WDC, Schumacher soundly flogged him in all but 2 races and heres the chart to remind you ....

http://en.wikipedia....final_standings

... what it doesn't tell you on that chart is that Schumacher drove to 1st place at Spa and 2nd place at Britain by merit but the points were taken from him, Schumacher rightfully and morally won the 1994 WDC but a number of people will just scream Adelaide 1994 where Hill ran into him from behind (you can't ram when you're in front) without a single consideration or mention of the other 15 races especially Belgium and Britain.

Besides that was all in 1994, please do tell me of all the controversy that was to be had in '92 and '93 ..... ??


Is this TNF manifesting itself into Racing Comments? People don´t find enough in Schumacher´s 2010 successes, so they revert to 1994, 1993 and 1992?

#6423 Johnrambo

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:51

. And he publicly tried to wipe the slate clean with Hill at that adelaide press conference.


That MS was allowed to keep the 1994 WDC is the biggest travesty in the history of F1. Like police investigate old crimes with the help of new technology (DNA) I hope FIA will someday revisit the Adelaide case and award the championship to the real winner Damon Hill.

#6424 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:57

Why? Even 16 years later you can see how much Damon has to take part-responsibility for that accident.

#6425 arknor

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 09:45

Why? Even 16 years later you can see how much Damon has to take part-responsibility for that accident.

didnt damon say if he knew schumacher had gone off the track just before the incident happened he wouldnt have tried...

damon made it sound like he thought it was his only chance to get past so he took a big risk

Edited by arknor, 09 October 2010 - 11:34.


#6426 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 09:52

It was even worse than that, he panicked. He had a significant speed advantage as he came out of the previous corner, but he got on the brakes a little suddenly. Of course he had to slow down for the next corner, but if you watch the onboard closely he momentarily locks his wheel. From that point on he's not traveling much faster than Schumacher. In fact they're doing very similar speeds. But he wasn't fully enough along side him, and not having any momentum advantage anymore, the only outcome was the two of them were going to collide if they kept heading for the same spot. If Damon had waited, or kept his speed up, he would have been fine. But as it was, they both sort of drove into each other.

#6427 Massa_f1

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 10:45

It was even worse than that, he panicked. He had a significant speed advantage as he came out of the previous corner, but he got on the brakes a little suddenly. Of course he had to slow down for the next corner, but if you watch the onboard closely he momentarily locks his wheel. From that point on he's not traveling much faster than Schumacher. In fact they're doing very similar speeds. But he wasn't fully enough along side him, and not having any momentum advantage anymore, the only outcome was the two of them were going to collide if they kept heading for the same spot. If Damon had waited, or kept his speed up, he would have been fine. But as it was, they both sort of drove into each other.



Damon has admitted he was also half to blame for years. The haters choose to ignore this fact though.

Edited by Massa_f1, 09 October 2010 - 10:45.


#6428 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 11:13

Yeah. The bulletin board, and in particular this thread, is overrun with Hill bashers.

#6429 JackTorrance

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 11:21

Yeah. The bulletin board, and in particular this thread, is overrun with Hill bashers.



At that same press conference, Gerhard berger, Martin Brundle and Hills teammate, Nigel Mansell, stated Schumacher deserved the championship because of his great season.

And the only bashing I see in this thread, is on Schumacher.

Schumacher publicly apologised for things he said about Hill during the season, and offered to bury the hatchet. Hill was having none of that and continued a war of words in the media, wich led to more bad sentiments between these 2 drivers during the 1995 season. At least the German tried. You should have some respect for that, or is that impossible in your red mist?

#6430 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 12:10

Err, I think you'll find I was defending Schumacher.

#6431 arknor

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 12:30

Yeah. The bulletin board, and in particular this thread, is overrun with Hill bashers.

i think you will find its the oposite in this thread, its full of schumacher bashers who would defend hill even if he was wrong aslong as they could have a go at schumacher

#6432 Nuvol

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 14:49

shame the merc car is useless in any conditions coz with possible q cancellation tomorrow, Michael would start 2nd! as Ham got penalty..

#6433 cheapracer

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 16:27

That MS was allowed to keep the 1994 WDC is the biggest travesty in the history of F1. Like police investigate old crimes with the help of new technology (DNA) I hope FIA will someday revisit the Adelaide case and award the championship to the real winner Damon Hill.


Here is a classic poster nay sayer about the 1994 season, you totally ignore facts and what I have mentioned about them in the post above.

You have to be totally ignorant to think that the 1994 season was decided by one race, it was decided over 16 of them and 4 of them to Schumacher's loss even though in the 2 races that spread to the 4 he did no wrong in the races themselves. I remind you that Schumacher won the bulk and came second for every race he drove including the British and Belgium GP's for which his results were removed.

The only travesty of justice in 1994 was against Schumacher twice, not Hill who incredibly in my mind could have won the WDC had he been a bit more patient at Adelaide - mind you if he had drove better for 10 other races he could have won too but he didn't, facts that the great Adelaide naysayers never mention.

By the way, the FIA didn't do a thing about the Adeliade 'incident' and Williams didn't protest so you have little support for your case.

16 races Mate, not 1 as with every season and for those 1994 16 races there was no better competitor than Benetton with Schumacher driving first wiping Senna then Hill - historical fact that can not be changed, you should pick another season if you wish to attempt to diss Schumacher.

#6434 SlateGray

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 16:54

It was even worse than that, he panicked. He had a significant speed advantage as he came out of the previous corner, but he got on the brakes a little suddenly. Of course he had to slow down for the next corner, but if you watch the onboard closely he momentarily locks his wheel. From that point on he's not traveling much faster than Schumacher. In fact they're doing very similar speeds. But he wasn't fully enough along side him, and not having any momentum advantage anymore, the only outcome was the two of them were going to collide if they kept heading for the same spot. If Damon had waited, or kept his speed up, he would have been fine. But as it was, they both sort of drove into each other.


Actually that is only half the story, Hill's side you might say. a side in which Hill did absolutely nothing dirty or cheat like, just made a choice to go for the inside. The other side of the story the dirty side you might say, the Schumacher side, has Schumacher in his broken car, post run off crash into a wall, back on track lying in wait, watching in his mirror for his last chance to stop Hill. Schumacher actually held up very slightly so as to time his ram into Hill for best effect and that cynical for the sport move became Schumachers calling card.

Shame... it happened again as we all know

I have not had time to keep up on the current status of excuse making for the current season, could someone tell me what the current expected time line for Schumacher to get on top of his teammate? What kind of wonder car car on what style of tire does the Master require to achieve equal status with the talented, young, pretty Mr Rosberg?

Cheers

#6435 Boing 2

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 16:58

WTF? Dripping with controversy? :rotfl:

The only controversy in my mind is how the hell can a driver be black flagged from a race for going in front on the warm up lap and why it took so long for the Stewards to impose it?? Schumacher was told by the team to stay out while they tried to get their heads around such an idiotic decision with the Stewards, which eventually was changed to a 5 second stop/go penalty that Schumacher served and that should have been the end of it but .....



i came back from a fford race at kirkistown that weekend where a driver dicked about on the parade lap, stewards put him to the back of the grid on the spot. When MS did that i thought straight away, how the hell do you get away with in in F1 when you're nailed at the grass roots? I agree the stewarding was shit but he should have known better, he broke the rule and also ignored a black flag which is a big no no.

Then theres the plank controversy at Spa, clearly the car (while way out in front and won the race too) slid on it's belly on the curb for a long time damaging the plank but unfortunately the rules didn't cover that type of damage (but were changed immediately after) - nothing but deserved sympathy for MS for that controversy.


If i recall correctly, the press release at the time admitted that they took the accident damage into account but that the longitudinal wear on the leading edge of the plank is what failed it.

Without that absolute idiotic 3 race ban for the warm up lap and the DSQ for the plank BS, Hill didn't stand a chance in hell in the 1994 WDC, Schumacher soundly flogged him in all but 2 races and heres the chart to remind you ....


... what it doesn't tell you on that chart is that Schumacher drove to 1st place at Spa and 2nd place at Britain by merit but the points were taken from him, Schumacher rightfully and morally won the 1994 WDC but a number of people will just scream Adelaide 1994 where Hill ran into him from behind (you can't ram when you're in front) without a single consideration or mention of the other 15 races especially Belgium and Britain.

Besides that was all in 1994, please do tell me of all the controversy that was to be had in '92 and '93 ..... ??


You're arguing about whether he deserved it or not, i'm claiming he was already controversial after his 3rd year, two different points completely. He had illegal TC found on his car, was winning races with excellent pit stops and was found to have an illegally altered fuel rig, claimed the title after ramming his opponent and spent quite a bit of time shitting on hill publically to get to his head.

Now you can argue this was right or wrong till the cows come home but you can't dispute that it happened and it made him a controversial figure.

#6436 Boing 2

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 17:06

Why? Even 16 years later you can see how much Damon has to take part-responsibility for that accident.



had that beesn MS's only crash of the sort i waould have given him the benefit of the doubt, after seeing him continue to drive like that for another 12 years i have to say, he took hill out on purpose. Damon did nothing wrong there at all.


#6437 schuey100

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 17:08

Saying that she is "not unattractive" is a different thing to saying that she is attractive. Besides which discussing a presenter's attractiveness just because she happens to be female is yet more proof of how far we still have to go to claim gender equality. A female's worth in the western world still appears to be mostly tied to how sexually attractive she is, regardless of what she is trying to achieve. No one discusses how attractive Jake is, it is irrelevant, as it should also be for a female presenter. OK we probably don't want Joseph Merrick presenting our sports programs, but after that why does anyone care?

In my opinion in the Qualifying coverage, Lee did an adequate job, but still has to settle into the role - she comes across as a bit stiff and scripted still, but on the whole did reasonably well.


I think it's probably obvious by now to all and sundry that Schumacher is without doubt, the greatest racing driver, no, driver that has ever lived. Even in a taxi he wows the world with his incredible skills. Remember this? http://www.telegraph...rport-dash.html

I think it's probably time the thread was closed, the discussion is over. Schumacher is the greatest. Game over. Is the world round? Unless you're a flat earth theory follower then it is. In the same way, is Schumacher the best? Unless you're a little bit mental. of course he is.

#6438 Boing 2

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 17:25

I have generally seen him being very racey on the opening laps, often picking up 3 or 4 positions (yes, to satisfy the trolls he's able to because he did such a sh!t job in qualifying...zzzz),


why are you a troll for pointing out something that's technically correct? if you qualify below your car's potential then you'll have more capacity to make up places.

Sidenote: How is it that when Button and others struggle with getting the tyres to work it's a perfectly acceptable excuse, but not in MS case?


I can't speak for anyone else but i think it's a perfectly reasonable excuse also, the reason he's getting so much stick is because he had a reputation for being able to drive anything to it's limits which is precisely what he's failing to do this year. Partially i think his fans are responsible for some of the shit he's getting now (only some though) Like Apple fanatics they hype him to the rafters, refuse to accept any critisism, attribute all success to his talent and all failure to the weakness of others yet will always pin the success of other drivers on superior machinery. In short he attracted a LOT of glory hunters who didn't give a damn about the sport or thrill of the fight but cared only about the monday morning gloat, an MS flag was a licence to feel smug which sadly for some is a necessity in life.

to be fair though, he was on of the dirtiest world champions i've ever seen which is also a part of why people quite enjoy laying the boot in.

Monaco last lap move was brilliant however, the fact it cost them not only the position, but any points at all only raised no outrage because it was MS.


that was a dozy mistake by the stewards and i can understand why his fans feel aggreived but then if Alonso was not racing him it does take away some of the achievement, a messy one all round though.


When he signed for Ferrari in 96, that car was a truck, it drove as ugly as it looked, he was the reigning champion who could have gone anywhere he wanted, he was attracted by the dream of bringing Ferrari to the top. Ferrari were hardly on an upswing at that time either, they'd won 2 races in 5 years. It's generally accepted that when Berger/Alesi tried the 95 Benetton they couldn't get near his times, when he drove the 95 Ferrari, he went faster than they'd been all season.


sorry but if you had watched from the disasters of 92 through to 95 you would have seen a huge upswing in performance. The points wern't put on the board because reliability was shit but they came very close to winning about 5 races that year.

Out of his 7 titles, which seasons was he in clearly the best team? 94,2002,2004 - maybe 2001 as well. 95 is open to debate, 2003 went with the tyres as to which team was faster each weekend. MS elevated the team beyond what it should have been capable of. Yes, he used all the advantages he could, yes his on track ethics were questionable on a nauseatingly regular basis, but he "wasn't only the best number 1, he's the best number 2 as well" -- Eddie Irvine said that, and let's face it, praise comes from him as often as Haley's comet.


I can happily accept he was the best of his generation (i think hakkinnen was faster and montoya a better passer but he was the best package), just not the best of all time, i think his career stats were hugely over inflated for a whole host of reasons. i think 3 titles would have reflected his talent accurately.




#6439 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 17:39

had that beesn MS's only crash of the sort i waould have given him the benefit of the doubt, after seeing him continue to drive like that for another 12 years i have to say, he took hill out on purpose. Damon did nothing wrong there at all.


I don't think he took him out on person. He panicked, yes. He was reckless/wreckful(!), yes. But I've never been convinced it was intentional. And even if it was, Damon misjudged the situation badly. As soon as he lost a speed advantage over Schumacher, on approach to the corner, he lost any sensible claim to attempting an overtake.


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#6440 Boing 2

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 17:50

I don't think he took him out on person. He panicked, yes. He was reckless/wreckful(!), yes. But I've never been convinced it was intentional. And even if it was, Damon misjudged the situation badly. As soon as he lost a speed advantage over Schumacher, on approach to the corner, he lost any sensible claim to attempting an overtake.


in hindsight you can say hill should have waited but had Schumacher not damaged the car and was able to continue that would have been his only chance. He was fighting for a title, his rival was going slowly and the door was open, if a driver doesn't go for it in that situation he's not a racer.

#6441 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 17:59

His rival wasn't going slowly at the time of the attempted overtake, they were doing more or less the same speed. This "If you don't try you're not a racer BS" is rookie logic. His misjudgement cost him the championship. It wasn't an overtaking opportunity.

#6442 BRK

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 18:08

Partially i think his fans are responsible for some of the shit he's getting now (only some though) Like Apple fanatics they hype him to the rafters, refuse to accept any critisism, attribute all success to his talent and all failure to the weakness of others yet will always pin the success of other drivers on superior machinery. In short he attracted a LOT of glory hunters who didn't give a damn about the sport or thrill of the fight but cared only about the monday morning gloat, an MS flag was a licence to feel smug which sadly for some is a necessity in life.


In other words,his 2010 season - one year out of a glittering sixteen - has attracted the attention of an assortment of nobodies,failures,and armchair experts on internet forums who don't - as is evident by posts such as yours on this thread - give a damn about the sport or the thrill of the fight but care only about the Monday morning gloat (when they can all get together and celebrate yet another 'bad' performance), an MS flag still is a licence to feel smug which sadly seems to be a necessity for the lot of you in life? These fanatics refuse to accept any logic or criticism, they hype Rosberg to the rafters, attribute all his failures to the man and all successes to the weaknesses of others/the weather/mood swings et cetera? Quite.


I can happily accept he was the best of his generation (i think hakkinnen was faster and montoya a better passer but he was the best package), just not the best of all time, i think his career stats were hugely over inflated for a whole host of reasons. i think 3 titles would have reflected his talent accurately.


The FIA ought to hire you as psychic talent scout and evaluator,in that case. :rolleyes:

#6443 man

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 18:13

Hah...not intentional my arse ;-)

You can clearly see him looking into the mirror, realising Hill was on the inside, and then reacting accordingly by intentionally cutting across, knowing full well a clash was going to take place.

Hill could/should have held back - perhaps. But what M Schumacher did was unsporting at best. With hindsight, we now know what M Schumacher did was very much in keeping with his character.

#6444 Sakae

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 19:50

I am not entirely clear on reasons why some poster who, having adveserial feelings to Schumacher, must continue to post in here, repeating the same stale criticism again, and again. Why not simply stay away, if you don't like him? I have managed that with Kubica. I can't stand the guy, but he is there, and I am here; this works for both of us.

There is difference between substantive disagreement over some analysis, doubts about personal intent, and some degree of indeference to a driver; perhaps that should suffice to conduct civilised discussion, instead dwelling on technicalities with no data in hand, possessing visuals that are, technically speaking, at their best inconclusive, and should not be used to support any argument.

FIA made many calls over Schumacher, and whilst I do not agree with them, there is nowhere else to go. Their s*** continues this season again. Race control lost my respect more than ten years ago, but he is still there, and so is Schumacher. Wrap yourselve around it, and learn to live with that.

Edited by Sakae, 09 October 2010 - 19:52.


#6445 aditya-now

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 20:33

I am not entirely clear on reasons why some poster who, having adveserial feelings to Schumacher, must continue to post in here, repeating the same stale criticism again, and again. Why not simply stay away, if you don't like him?


Because you invited them:

Aim of this thread is to discuss issues related to Michael Schumacher. After Bahrain voices were heard about several weaknesses in his current cornering technique. It is my hope we can continue in that spirit, and check on him through the season.

I wish to welcome all, friends and also those ready for conversion as well.;)


I always wondered what you meant with "It is my hope we can continue in that spirit" - which spirit, the spirit of discussing several weaknesses in his current cornering technique?

Then you go on: "I wish to welcome all", but you immediately become exclusive: "friends and those ready for conversion as well". So all is only those who see eye to eye with you or who are ready for conversion to your viewpoints.....what happened to the freedom of speech here?


#6446 aditya-now

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 21:19

FIA made many calls over Schumacher, and whilst I do not agree with them, there is nowhere else to go. Their s*** continues this season again. Race control lost my respect more than ten years ago.


I would not whine so much about the FIA and race control - if weather does not allow for qualifying, Michael Schumacher will start in the front row for the first time since 2006:

i feel sorry for lewis :( he has been the unluckiest man this season. I hope tomorrow qualifying will not be done so race order will be given with the race numbers. So what happens if it happens?

1-Jenson Button
2-Michael Schumacher
3-Nico Rosberg
4-Sebastian Vettel
5-Mark Webber
6-Felipe Massa
7-Lewis Hamilton??
8-Fernando Alonso
9-Rubens Barichello
10-Nico Hulkenberg

?


Michael might even get into the lead at the start, so let´s hope rain washes out qualifying....


#6447 Wade

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 01:46

That was close.

#6448 ivand911

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 01:47

Q3. He was losing 0.5 in the first sector from Heidfeld. But, he did it somehow. Hope he can get better first sector in Q3. Stupid strategy in Q2 with small numbers fast laps?

#6449 tormave

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 01:52

Q3. He was losing 0.5 in the first sector from Heidfeld. But, he did it somehow. Hope he can get better first sector in Q3. Stupid strategy in Q2 with small numbers fast laps?

The option tyre can't seem to take more than one qual lap. I think they did the right thing. MS only .2 sec behind NR and at the right moment too.

#6450 ivand911

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Posted 10 October 2010 - 02:05

P10, hope he will start good today. Some times Williams car don't start very well. Maybe he needed to use harder tyres for the race,like Button.

Edited by ivand911, 10 October 2010 - 02:07.