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#6701 Sakae

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 22:38

You know whats just priceless? How he was (according to his detractors) able to take advantage of those unlimited testing opportunities to pound out millions of miles at fiorano in order to destroy his teammates, while at the EXACT same time (according to the same detractors) he was able to destroy his teammates because they were forced to pound out millions of miles at fiorano to develop the car for him while he lay on a beach

And yes, those two criticisms have come from the same people at different times.. Rubens and Eddie were both slave testers, and also denied the chance to test.

MS usually clocked over 10,000 km of pre-season testing, if memory serves me right, which was very close to what others did. Besides, afer testing when Rubens was sleeping, Michael worked whole night on the car with his mechanics. (Being car mechanic himself by trade).

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#6702 aditya-now

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 22:58

You know whats just priceless? How he was (according to his detractors) able to take advantage of those unlimited testing opportunities to pound out millions of miles at fiorano in order to destroy his teammates, while at the EXACT same time (according to the same detractors) he was able to destroy his teammates because they were forced to pound out millions of miles at fiorano to develop the car for him while he lay on a beach

And yes, those two criticisms have come from the same people at different times.. Rubens and Eddie were both slave testers, and also denied the chance to test.


I think you got it wrong. Schumacher had Badoer as his personal tester for years. You and Raelene better check your sources...

#6703 baddog

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 00:22

I think you got it wrong. Schumacher had Badoer as his personal tester for years. You and Raelene better check your sources...


lol thats funny. Firstly Michael himself did countless thousands of laps of testing.. and secondly, believe me he has been criticised for ALL of these contrary things (I had forgotten that apparently Badoer doing his job is Michael gaining an unfair advantage, thanks for the reminder) , often by the same people.

Of course only someone thinking illogically would think that Ferrari using ALL their drivers for an extensive test program is not for the teams benefit but just for one driver..

#6704 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 00:29

Has anyone summed up all factors he has to cope with upon his return?

I am not sure if the list is complete, but some issues are challenge (its not in any particular order):

- pause in racing
- age
- new regulations (sporting and technical) / new aerodynamics
- new team - get to know you factor
- technical team that was never really proven good but for one lucky DD
- team in internal chaos (disarray?) after reduction in manpower resources (from 1000 to 400 or thereabout)
- two new drivers
- new owners / second year in a row
- very little, if any pre-season testing
- no testing between races
- new tires
- car characteristics in sharp contrast with his old Ferrari
- new or revised tracks
- pompous attitute of some drivers, such as "I don't slow down for Schumacher", as one would be hero declared to whole world (behaviour on the track just follows)
- the same race control (hostile?) group

... what did I forget; I am sure there is more.


Thanks for enumerating those mitigating factors for Michael´s poor performances, Sakae, I am sure no other driver on the grid has to face such hostile and diverse challenges like Michael Schumacher. He is indeed a titan for facing up to them. :up:


#6705 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 00:31

lol thats funny. Firstly Michael himself did countless thousands of laps of testing.. and secondly, believe me he has been criticised for ALL of these contrary things (I had forgotten that apparently Badoer doing his job is Michael gaining an unfair advantage, thanks for the reminder) , often by the same people.

Of course only someone thinking illogically would think that Ferrari using ALL their drivers for an extensive test program is not for the teams benefit but just for one driver..


Apparently you never witnessed Austria 2001, Austria 2002 and many other occasions  ;) - Ferrari was never about one driver alone, but, like McLaren, about giving both drivers equal opportunities.


#6706 Raelene

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:28

I think you got it wrong. Schumacher had Badoer as his personal tester for years. You and Raelene better check your sources...



ROFLMAO - make up your mind......

#6707 iakhtar

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:41

It's logical to assume that all of the big budget teams would have had massive amounts of testing mileage, does anyone have total testing mileage stats for 2006 or previous? Would be interesting to actually compare.

As for the whole bespoke tyre thing, Bridgestone entered the close technical collaboration with Ferrari in 2002, result was pretty clear, didn't quite work in 03/05. The top Michelin runners were also undoubtedly running custom designed tyres, it was a tyre war afterall.

Posters seem to be making these two points against Schumacher quite often these days, bespoke tyres, unlimited over-testing, like it was some kind of unfair advantage, all of the contenders were doing the same thing imo, and if not, why not?

#6708 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 01:50

Posters seem to be making these two points against Schumacher quite often these days, bespoke tyres, unlimited over-testing, like it was some kind of unfair advantage, all of the contenders were doing the same thing imo, and if not, why not?


Well, point is, Schumacher himself was complaining about limited testing limiting him, so there must be something to it.


#6709 iakhtar

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:01

Didn't he say it was limiting development of the Mercedes?

#6710 Sakae

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:04

Well, point is, Schumacher himself was complaining about limited testing limiting him, so there must be something to it.

Isolated as they are, early in the season there were heard several voices that testing (mainly between races) should be permitted. Mine is long held view that I should see racing, not testing on Sunday. It's not perhaps such unreasonable request.

Edited by Sakae, 12 October 2010 - 02:05.


#6711 iakhtar

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:13

I've got a feeling that it wont be long before the simulators are close enough to replicate real testing 100% I could be totally wrong though.

#6712 DarthRonzo

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 02:24

Has anyone summed up all factors he has to cope with upon his return?

I am not sure if the list is complete, but some issues are challenge (its not in any particular order):

- pause in racing
- age
- new regulations (sporting and technical) / new aerodynamics
- new team - get to know you factor
- technical team that was never really proven good but for one lucky DD
- team in internal chaos (disarray?) after reduction in manpower resources (from 1000 to 400 or thereabout)
- two new drivers
- new owners / second year in a row
- very little, if any pre-season testing
- no testing between races
- new tires
- car characteristics in sharp contrast with his old Ferrari
- new or revised tracks
- pompous attitute of some drivers, such as "I don't slow down for Schumacher", as one would be hero declared to whole world (behaviour on the track just follows)
- the same race control (hostile?) group

... what did I forget; I am sure there is more. These aren't excuses, he would be first one to object to that, but still, light or heavy, these factors are there.


On pro side - he is relaxed, nothing to prove, wants to win, but he is not DESPERATE like certain Brasilian who gets hysterical every chance he gets.

Senna would ignore your whole shopping list of excuses.

#6713 baddog

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:04

I've got a feeling that it wont be long before the simulators are close enough to replicate real testing 100% I could be totally wrong though.

Nah decades away from that if ever. I mean they can do a lot, and its amazing tech, but it never really captures what actually happens out there. Its just too damned complex.

Aditya, I think you will find the concern was that for a driver who has been 'out of the saddle' for several years, in a team struggling with the consistency of their car anyway, lack of testing could be a real problem. And so we see it does seem to be.

#6714 Raelene

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:25

Senna would ignore your whole shopping list of excuses.


yeah, cause he would just go to the best team..

#6715 slaveceru

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 04:13

Oi oi oi, that would be indeed embarassing. Michael knew why he went to Mercedes GP and left Ferrari. :lol:

:down:
Tell us why Schumacher went to Mercedes o all knowing one and not to the Ferrari team.

Edited by slaveceru, 12 October 2010 - 04:20.


#6716 Zoe

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:05

Classic Ivan - the team does not know it, but Ivan saw it on TV! :lol:


Well isn't that so typical of all the armchair experts here in the forum; that everyone knows everything?

We know the doctors diagnosis of his neck injury last year
We know Schumachers (and all his team mates) past and present contracts
We know what Schumacher was thinking during every little episode in all the races
We know what Schumacher was thinking when he joined Mercedes GP
and so on and so forth

If we'd all stick to the pure and simple facts, this thread would not be as it is, and many people would actually find time to get a real life :wave:

otoh I would miss a lot of fun the odd week when I put my nose into here from time to time :)

Zoe


#6717 sir jackie walker

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:23

and every other driver could test and test - why could they not get the results MS did


And yet we saw no one else fly to Fiorano (?) after Monaco Thursday practice sessions.

When people talk about 'Ferrari dream team' they always mention Schumacher, Todt, Brawn, Byrne. But never one Phillip Morris.

#6718 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:35

lol thats funny. Firstly Michael himself did countless thousands of laps of testing.. and secondly, believe me he has been criticised for ALL of these contrary things (I had forgotten that apparently Badoer doing his job is Michael gaining an unfair advantage, thanks for the reminder) , often by the same people.

Of course only someone thinking illogically would think that Ferrari using ALL their drivers for an extensive test program is not for the teams benefit but just for one driver..


You only have to read Johnny Herbert's comments on the matter where they started out equal in the team but as Schumacher devoted himself to testing even driving into the night and then spending time with the engineers and mechanics while Herbert wanted a normal time schedule/life, the team slowly turned to prefering and helping Scumacher - gee I'm surprised....and so was Herbert apparently :lol:

Also Badoer was a part of the test team, the race team had to actually go racing occasionally while the test team continued testing.

Edited by cheapracer, 12 October 2010 - 06:45.


#6719 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:44

When people talk about 'Ferrari dream team' they always mention Schumacher, Todt, Brawn, Byrne. But never one Phillip Morris.


What they had sponsorship?? WOW what a revelation, who would have thought it .....


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#6720 ivand911

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 06:52

When we talk about new tyres this season, they also have different tyres on different tracks. One track you have super soft, medium; on the next track you have soft, hard. You gain some knowledge with one tyre combination and on the next track you start from zero again with other combination. I think Michael have somehow better races with soft, hard tyre combination. Next race have this combination again. Then I hope for good race.

#6721 sir jackie walker

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:17

What they had sponsorship?? WOW what a revelation, who would have thought it .....


-Mr Schumacher was the main factor of Ferrari success.
-WHAT they had a driver!?!? Who would have thought it..11!!!??2


Carry on.

#6722 Mr2s

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:43

Still hasent done a Mansell in his 40's thats cause he is not driving the red bull witch would be the equivelent of the Williams Mansell was driving. Put him in a Red Bull and i bet he will win.


Rubbish the Benetton and Williams were pretty equal< You obviously wernt around in that era if you use the Red Bull as an example.
Mansell out qualified the younger Schumacher in a pretty equal car.

#6723 Mr2s

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:45

the tailor made tyres is a myth

and every other driver could test and test - why could they not get the results MS did

I just find it hilariaous that you bought up the "can't drive around problems like his fans said he could"...without mentioning the fact that times have certainly changed in terms of testing....


and I guess the other teams abandoning Bridgetone was a myth too right? what happened, someone used photoshop to write Michelin on the side walls?

#6724 Mr2s

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:48

yes, this is the 7 times world champion, you have him exact.

truly and utterly hopelessly pathetic...enjoy your "thread"...


yes you certainly are.
Those points I brought up were in reply to another poster, they are not my overall opinions of schuamcher, but thanks for your little rant lol.
I have respect for his work ethic and they way he always got the best team around him. I also respected his original decision to retire when someone better came along.

#6725 Mr2s

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 07:55

It's like doctors look at x-ray photos and know how neck feels when gets 4 Gees.


No, its the German media asking the doctors and Schumacher staff if the injury is serious, and them replying "no" and it getting reported that way in the media.
The after effects of any neck injuries are well known and can last years, that doesn't necessarily mean the original injury was "serious". If it was as serious as the OP made out, schumacher would not have gone about his normal life in the way he did, horse riding, "keeping sharp" in karting etc.

#6726 ivand911

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 08:19

http://www.planetf1....-Winners-Losers
"Overtaking Move of the Race
Lap 7, Michael Schumacher on Rubens Barrichello for P6
So why not Kobayashi's serial overtaking moves into the hairpin? To be fair, he was lucky to be on the track after mugging Alguersuari for 10th on Lap 12. But more of this later.

Schumacher's pass was sublime because:
a) Rubens and he have a certain amount of history
b) Barrichello would have known it was coming
c) Overtaking around Suzuka is hard enough without a willing overtakee, but around the outside into the final chicane...?
Amazing. "

#6727 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:21

Rubbish the Benetton and Williams were pretty equal< You obviously wernt around in that era if you use the Red Bull as an example.
Mansell out qualified the younger Schumacher in a pretty equal car.


Theres not a single historian that will agree with you that they were equal always giving the nudge to the Williams. Oh and I was around in that era.

Yes Mansell outqualified Hill and MS but in the race both Hill and Schumacher pulled away from Mansell at the rate of one second per lap, something that seems strange to me about that especially if you take his very uncompetitive '95 drives into consideration.

The after effects of any neck injuries are well known and can last years, that doesn't necessarily mean the original injury was "serious". If it was as serious as the OP made out, schumacher would not have gone about his normal life in the way he did, horse riding, "keeping sharp" in karting etc.


How many G's when riding a horse Mate? How many G's in a Kart?

I have suffered neck pain for 30 years that can't even be identified after a small accident and theres some things I can do such as race MX all day that pounds the body including wearing a heavy helmut without an issue and some things I can't such as ride a roller coaster so get a clue on the subject.

IMO calling someone out on an injury is pretty low.

Edited by cheapracer, 12 October 2010 - 09:26.


#6728 Polle

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:29

Rubbish the Benetton and Williams were pretty equal< You obviously wernt around in that era if you use the Red Bull as an example.
Mansell out qualified the younger Schumacher in a pretty equal car.


I am pretty certain the Williams was faster than the Benetton. However I do remember the Williams suffering bad in wet configurations. And Schumacher was no rain schmuck either.

#6729 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:44

http://www.planetf1....-Winners-Losers
"Overtaking Move of the Race
Lap 7, Michael Schumacher on Rubens Barrichello for P6
So why not Kobayashi's serial overtaking moves into the hairpin? To be fair, he was lucky to be on the track after mugging Alguersuari for 10th on Lap 12. But more of this later.

Schumacher's pass was sublime because:
a) Rubens and he have a certain amount of history
b) Barrichello would have known it was coming
c) Overtaking around Suzuka is hard enough without a willing overtakee, but around the outside into the final chicane...?
Amazing. "

I think rubens made a big mistake in the 130R...he lost momentum there and michael went for it
it was brave around the outside but rubens made an error prior to that.

michael made way too much ground between mid corner 130R and the braking point of the chicane.

#6730 slaveceru

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 10:44

yes you certainly are.
Those points I brought up were in reply to another poster, they are not my overall opinions of schuamcher, but thanks for your little rant lol.
I have respect for his work ethic and they way he always got the best team around him. I also respected his original decision to retire when someone better came along.

Do you now know why he retired or what. I do not know who was so good that Schumacher had to retire or do you think that he was afraid of Kimi? He has already explained why he retired when he did.

#6731 ivand911

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:15

I think rubens made a big mistake in the 130R...he lost momentum there and michael went for it
it was brave around the outside but rubens made an error prior to that.

michael made way too much ground between mid corner 130R and the braking point of the chicane.

I don't think there was any mistake? Just Michael was coming with bigger speed and better traction of the car(it sounds strange about W01). From behind I didn't see any mistake from Rubens.

#6732 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:32

I don't think there was any mistake? Just Michael was coming with bigger speed and better traction of the car(it sounds strange about W01). From behind I didn't see any mistake from Rubens.

i don't think he could carry that much speed in 130R while following another car..
certainly the aero is very bad there since it's a fast turn that requires plenty of front downforce.

rubens must have made some sort of mistake/small slide and lost a bit of momentum there

you can't speak about traction exiting 130R since you have plenty of downforce, it's not a small speed turn.
rubens lost out after the apex showing he made some sort of mistake there

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 12 October 2010 - 11:33.


#6733 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:46

i don't think he could carry that much speed in 130R while following another car..
certainly the aero is very bad there since it's a fast turn that requires plenty of front downforce.

rubens must have made some sort of mistake/small slide and lost a bit of momentum there

you can't speak about traction exiting 130R since you have plenty of downforce, it's not a small speed turn.
rubens lost out after the apex showing he made some sort of mistake there

theres an onboard video of schumacher overtaking barrichello and there is no mistake , it apears as if barrichello bottles it and lifts off for a second where as you can clearly hear schumachers engine flat out they were still pretty equal as they reached the chicane

#6734 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 11:57

theres an onboard video of schumacher overtaking barrichello and there is no mistake , it apears as if barrichello bottles it and lifts off for a second ...

the second part is my point...it jsut appears rubens had to lift off because he made an error
i don't think anything else can explain the huge momentum michael got out there

#6735 ivand911

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 12:05

i don't think anything else can explain the huge momentum michael got out there

Maybe this will help:
http://www.fia.com/e...race-speeds.pdf
http://www.fia.com/e...n-race-trap.pdf
Higher top speed?


#6736 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 12:59

the second part is my point...it jsut appears rubens had to lift off because he made an error
i don't think anything else can explain the huge momentum michael got out there

have you actually watched the video? there is no error he just doesnt have the balls to go full speed in 130R and michael does...

Edited by arknor, 12 October 2010 - 13:01.


#6737 Polle

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:13

Maybe it was an error of judgement of how fast he could take that corner? :p

#6738 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:28

Maybe it was an error of judgement of how fast he could take that corner? :p

there must have been an error because its michael schumacher... im sure if it was hamilton overtaking kubica or someone it would be hailed as the most epic overtaking manouever this decade . . .

#6739 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:31

Maybe it was an error of judgement of how fast he could take that corner? :p


So it´s Barrichello - Schumacher 1:1 in high stakes overtakings this year. Hungaroring worked for Rubens, Suzuka for Michael.
It says a lot about the level of racing that Michael is on nowadays (and also about the level of argument here) that people here are celebrating that overtake like a championship.

Get a grip, people, it was just an overtake and if you think that Rubens is such a mighty opponent that you have to celebrate this overtake for three days, ask yourself why Michael cannot compete with the big guys anymore, why he was afraid of going to Ferrari and why people like Fernando Alonso (since 2005), Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel are beyond the reach of this fading champion.

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#6740 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:35

schumacher the excuse meister - what ever next? gravity has fluctuated a little since 2004 and so changed the driving characteristics of the cars? give over michael, there's nothing more pathetic than endless excuses and your supporters are no better....

you have been completely owned this season by nico and you are getting worse on the whole...


Firstly - it is mostly us making excuses for or against, MS himself has been consistent with nominating the problem since pre season testing.

Secondly - yes, although not completely, he has mostly been owned by Rosberg this season but for you to state he is getting worse especially after Japan is just an inexcusable post and leaves no option other than to call your post ignorant to the facts or simply immature trolling.

And most educated people start sentences and names with high case letters.


#6741 Diablobb81

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:36

In Suzuka he couldn't compete because he didn't have the car for it. Simples.

The rest of your rant is just that. Did you run out of even the pretense of having an argument for your opinions?

#6742 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:44

So it´s Barrichello - Schumacher 1:1 in high stakes overtakings this year. Hungaroring worked for Rubens, Suzuka for Michael.
It says a lot about the level of racing that Michael is on nowadays (and also about the level of argument here) that people here are celebrating that overtake like a championship.

Get a grip, people, it was just an overtake and if you think that Rubens is such a mighty opponent that you have to celebrate this overtake for three days, ask yourself why Michael cannot compete with the big guys anymore, why he was afraid of going to Ferrari and why people like Fernando Alonso (since 2005), Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel are beyond the reach of this fading champion.

1:1 if u dont count the other times schumacher got past him on the starting grid etc sure...

noones trying to say the overtake is great but when people come here claiming barrichello made a mistake and thats why schumacher got by ofcourse where going to provide video evidence that shows it was a genuine overtake because barry was scared to take 130R flat...

even the HRT boys take it flat :rotfl:

#6743 dde

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:53

So it´s Barrichello - Schumacher 1:1 in high stakes overtakings this year. Hungaroring worked for Rubens, Suzuka for Michael.
It says a lot about the level of racing that Michael is on nowadays (and also about the level of argument here) that people here are celebrating that overtake like a championship.

Get a grip, people, it was just an overtake and if you think that Rubens is such a mighty opponent that you have to celebrate this overtake for three days, ask yourself why Michael cannot compete with the big guys anymore, why he was afraid of going to Ferrari and why people like Fernando Alonso (since 2005), Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel are beyond the reach of this fading champion.


Well, Alonso didn't seem that much beyond the reach of Schumacher when Schumacher went from -35 points after Canada 06 to 00 before Suzuka 06. He didn't seem neither in the last 3 GP of 2006.

Edited by dde, 12 October 2010 - 13:53.


#6744 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:54

1:1 if u dont count the other times schumacher got past him on the starting grid etc sure...

noones trying to say the overtake is great but when people come here claiming barrichello made a mistake and thats why schumacher got by ofcourse where going to provide video evidence that shows it was a genuine overtake because barry was scared to take 130R flat...

even the HRT boys take it flat :rotfl:


"High stakes overtaking" was the content, but obviously it escaped your limited attention. Then again, with the second part of your post you fall exactly into the midfield (and even back of the field, HRT) in order to appraise Michael and his mighty go at Rubens.

The music is playing where Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are, my friend.


#6745 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:54

Well, Alonso didn't seem that much beyond the reach of Schumacher when Schumacher went from -35 points after Canada 06 to 00 before Suzuka 06. He didn't seem neither in the last 3 GP of 2006.


Please remind me, who became WDC 2006?

#6746 Diablobb81

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:57

The music is playing where Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are, my friend.



Angels play were there are 7 titles. And 2,1 and 0 is a little bit far from that music. :rotfl:

#6747 dde

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 13:57

Please remind me, who became WDC 2006?


The one who had the best car.



#6748 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:03

"High stakes overtaking" was the content, but obviously it escaped your limited attention. Then again, with the second part of your post you fall exactly into the midfield (and even back of the field, HRT) in order to appraise Michael and his mighty go at Rubens.

The music is playing where Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are, my friend.

no the music is playing where the Red bull , mclaren and ferrari are.

maybe you think hamilton slonso and vettel would be winning races in the mercedes though....

#6749 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:05

Angels play were there are 7 titles. And 2,1 and 0 is a little bit far from that music. :rotfl:


In 2010, MS is nothing but a fallen angel if we use your analogy. It´s even a bit further from the music. Looking at 2011 and beyond, I wonder how many more titles your fallen angel will score, and how many those who have just started.


The one who had the best car.


Ah, so who became WDC in 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 then?

You just rubbished all of Michael´s titles. :lol:


#6750 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:06

no the music is playing where the Red bull , mclaren and ferrari are.

maybe you think hamilton slonso and vettel would be winning races in the mercedes though....


Maybe you think hakkinen, villeneuve and hill would have not won the WDCs in that Ferrari 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 as well.