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#6751 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:28

Maybe you think hakkinen, villeneuve and hill would have not won the WDCs in that Ferrari 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 as well.


not this silly argument again we can say that about every year someone won the championship.... oh what if XXX was in the brawn last year , what if xx was in the redbull this year they would have won the championship already.

we did this already in the thread why start it again?

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#6752 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:47

there must have been an error because its michael schumacher... im sure if it was hamilton overtaking kubica or someone it would be hailed as the most epic overtaking manouever this decade . . .

I am actually one of his fans so that doesn't work

I am just stating the obvious for me.

it doesn't make the pass less great though. all passes actually have some sort of error from the driver in front....

#6753 Hacklerf

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:52

Interesting how the press is quite after he makes a good race, but not when he has a bad one

#6754 dde

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:57

Maybe you think hakkinen, villeneuve and hill would have not won the WDCs in that Ferrari 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 as well.



2002 and 2004 for sure, 2001 certainly, 2003 probably not, 2000 no chance.



#6755 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 14:59

there must have been an error because its michael schumacher... im sure if it was hamilton overtaking kubica or someone it would be hailed as the most epic overtaking manouever this decade . . .


You got that right - Schumacher has done some great passes and some clever passes this year and I thought the thread was kinda meant for that but ..... :rolleyes:

Funny how if you wander around the net looking for great passes how often the excellent pass on him by Hakkinen at Spa comes up - naysayers heaven that day, a rare moment MS was passed on merit (by another great driver) :lol:

Interesting how the press is quite after he makes a good race, but not when he has a bad one


Well they get their info through this forum didn't you know? :lol:

Edited by cheapracer, 12 October 2010 - 15:00.


#6756 dde

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:00

In 2010, MS is nothing but a fallen angel if we use your analogy. It´s even a bit further from the music. Looking at 2011 and beyond, I wonder how many more titles your fallen angel will score, and how many those who have just started.




Ah, so who became WDC in 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 then?

You just rubbished all of Michael´s titles. :lol:


None of them. Not even Alonso's one in 2006. I just said that losing 35 points in 7-8 GP is not what I Call "being beyond reach". Being tied in the championship with 2 races to go, is not what I call being "beyond reach". And finally being champion thanks to 2 mechanicals problems in the last 2 GP otherwise championship would have been lost, is not what I call "beign beyond reach".

I wouldn't say neither that Raikkonen was beyond reach of Alonso in 2007. But I guess you would. :)

Edited by dde, 12 October 2010 - 15:01.


#6757 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:04

2002 and 2004 for sure, 2001 certainly, 2003 probably not, 2000 no chance.


I think a lot of people think 2004 came easier than it actually did.

I reckon Hakkinen could have matched the titles, the others not.

Only thing is I don't know if Hakkinen had the car development/testing capabilities that MS did although I note that McLaren didn't go backwards with Hakkinen there but then again Mclaren seldom go backwards.

#6758 dde

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:22

I think a lot of people think 2004 came easier than it actually did.

I reckon Hakkinen could have matched the titles, the others not.


It was difficult to win so many races. He especially won 2 or 3 races than he was the only one to be able to win. But to become champion with that car was not difficult, and Hakkinen, Hill and even Villeneuve would have made it.


Only thing is I don't know if Hakkinen had the car development/testing capabilities that MS did although I note that McLaren didn't go backwards with Hakkinen there but then again Mclaren seldom go backwards.


I'm not sure to understand. I think McLaren always develop good during the season, whoever the drivers are. Even Raikkonen/Montoya.

#6759 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:28

I think a lot of people think 2004 came easier than it actually did.

I reckon Hakkinen could have matched the titles, the others not.

Only thing is I don't know if Hakkinen had the car development/testing capabilities that MS did although I note that McLaren didn't go backwards with Hakkinen there but then again Mclaren seldom go backwards.


With respect, I disagree.

While Mclaren may seem - on the outside at least - the preserve of professionalism with the stiff British upper-lip and equal opportunities ethos, it hasn't really helped them has it?

Since 1998 they have been a WDC or WCC contender barring 2002, 2004, 2006 and 2009. They have only delivered the double in 1998. Since then their treasure chest has been fairly empty - barring 2008. That is quite a small success ratio when you analyse the core statistics.

I believe their on-track policy has held them back. Either that or they aren't as advanced technically as we are lead to believe.

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#6760 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:40

2002 and 2004 for sure, 2001 certainly, 2003 probably not, 2000 no chance.


Good and fair evaluation! :up:


#6761 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:42

2002 and 2004 for sure, 2001 certainly, 2003 probably not, 2000 no chance.


So the 2000 one is ironical, I have to say - Hakkinen in the Ferrari would have had no chance to beat Hakkinen in the McLaren!


#6762 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:46

I wouldn't say neither that Raikkonen was beyond reach of Alonso in 2007. But I guess you would. :)


That´s a completely different matter, which doesn´t fit into the MS thread - there was an inside story going on between FIA and McLaren - Alonso driving strangely muted in Interlagos, making up the numbers - let us just say that no McLaren was destined to become WDC in 2007...


#6763 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 15:50

So the 2000 one is ironical, I have to say - Hakkinen in the Ferrari would have had no chance to beat Hakkinen in the McLaren!

probably would have been schumacher in the mclaren...

#6764 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 18:19

With respect, I disagree.

While Mclaren may seem - on the outside at least - the preserve of professionalism with the stiff British upper-lip and equal opportunities ethos, it hasn't really helped them has it?

Since 1998 they have been a WDC or WCC contender barring 2002, 2004, 2006 and 2009. They have only delivered the double in 1998. Since then their treasure chest has been fairly empty - barring 2008. That is quite a small success ratio when you analyse the core statistics.

I believe their on-track policy has held them back. Either that or they aren't as advanced technically as we are lead to believe.


I'm not sure what you disagree with because I mostly agree with what you say here! :lol:

In the 90's McLaren were hit with engine supply problems but their chassis was certainly a match for anything as was Hakkinen and the 2000's just went bad with one of their model cars that they struggeled to recover fully from after it put them behind the 8 ball.

To keep the post on topic I actually always believed MS would end up at McLaren for a stint.

#6765 aditya-now

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 18:37

To keep the post on topic I actually always believed MS would end up at McLaren for a stint.


Ron Dennis with his stupid approaches made sure that this would not happen.

Remember that come-together between Ron and Michael? "I want you to be careful. Something might happen, if you are always on the limit. Be careful!" :lol:
As much as I don´t like Schumacher, but this approach was too much, paternizing in the extreme, wholly unacceptable to Michael.

So Michael at McLaren was a sure no.


#6766 Sakae

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 18:50

Senna would ignore your whole shopping list of excuses.


The list you comment on is my list of factors Schumacher has to cope with, not his list of "excuses".

I have seen Senna in person race on a few tracks, just as once or twice in paddock, and I know for fact that Senna was one of most bitching people when he had his moment, and who would not in all likelyhood put up with crap that Schumacher is exposed.

Your comment is without value, nonsensical and derisive of Schumacher; nothing more.

Edited by Sakae, 12 October 2010 - 19:15.


#6767 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 19:49

put up with crap that Schumacher is exposed.


A recent dissapointment to see was when Schumacher appeared on Top Gear and Clarkson put him through that crap. Worse than that idiot (BBC?) reporter who kept asking him about Hamilton for 10 minutes straight.

Clarkson had a very rare chance that few have to get some information on such incidents as Jerez 1997 such as how or why it came about, what led up to the blatant and stupid ramming incident.
I would be asking questions such as did unseen on track or off track incidents happen during 1997 or 1996 (such as JV's chop on him at Spa) that led to animosity between JV and him?

So many unanswered questions, what an opportunity lost - you idiot Clarkson.




#6768 Sakae

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 21:20

Michael is, and always was cognizant of animosity against him from certain sources, yet he endures it with calmness. I must give it to him, that his self-confidence and control is awesome. He wins that encounter, especially when viewers recognize a dirty setup to embarrass him, and public is more than happy to see a reporter or mediator to make an ass of himself.

I do not know what to think about Brits. The other day I spend a week with several of them in Italy, and we had good time, yet when I visit Autosport and BB, then I wonder if I should ever return. From Atlas days things has changed.

I do like however Cambridge University, so do not come down on me that I hate all what is British. Brits also gave us football; unfortunately for them, they forgot this year how to play it. What else is there to say?

Edited by Sakae, 12 October 2010 - 21:22.


#6769 black magic

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 22:39

michael was very magnanamous in that "interview" and alowed clarkson to take the piss out of him. interesting the volume of his welcome was pretty impressive.

#6770 ivand911

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:40

michael was very magnanamous in that "interview" and alowed clarkson to take the piss out of him. interesting the volume of his welcome was pretty impressive.

This was new interview? Or the old one about Stig?


#6771 cheapracer

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:42

This was new interview? Or the old one about Stig?


He lapped in a black FX then walked in as the Stig.


#6772 arknor

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:05

He lapped in a black FX then walked in as the Stig.

probably a rehearsed interview with how scripted top gear has become

#6773 SeanValen

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:08

Ron Dennis with his stupid approaches made sure that this would not happen.

Remember that come-together between Ron and Michael? "I want you to be careful. Something might happen, if you are always on the limit. Be careful!" :lol:
As much as I don´t like Schumacher, but this approach was too much, paternizing in the extreme, wholly unacceptable to Michael.

So Michael at McLaren was a sure no.




Your not allowed to keep your trophies at Mclaren, just copies. Prost threw his trophy in the crowd back in the days before he left for ferrari as he knew he wouldn't be getting the original anyway. I think mclaren with Ron just too uptight in making the team look too strict with policies and procedures that took the fun out of the belebrations.

Ron's ego is almost like the team must be more important then driver taking credit or celebrating his way.

Edited by SeanValen, 13 October 2010 - 09:09.


#6774 baddog

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:19

probably a rehearsed interview with how scripted top gear has become

Yeah good luck getting Michael (or tom cruise) to turn up for an interview rehearsal ;)



#6775 Lifew12

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:25

Clarkson had a very rare chance that few have to get some information on such incidents as Jerez 1997 such as how or why it came about, what led up to the blatant and stupid ramming incident.


And you think that others haven't had that opportunity in the last 13 years? I would wager many have asked him, and he's given the same scripted answer - whatever that may be.

#6776 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:30

michael was very magnanamous in that "interview" and alowed clarkson to take the piss out of him. interesting the volume of his welcome was pretty impressive.


Never been to a TV studio before then? Its not impressive at all, certainly not when compared to a genuine one at a motor race circuit.The audience are jeed up and instructed.
Michael has always had a good and genuine reception at silverstone, he has always had a big following in the UK. Far more telling than a TV show.

Edited by Mr2s, 13 October 2010 - 09:57.


#6777 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:36

Theres not a single historian that will agree with you that they were equal always giving the nudge to the Williams. Oh and I was around in that era.

Yes Mansell outqualified Hill and MS but in the race both Hill and Schumacher pulled away from Mansell at the rate of one second per lap, something that seems strange to me about that especially if you take his very uncompetitive '95 drives into consideration.



How many G's when riding a horse Mate? How many G's in a Kart?

I have suffered neck pain for 30 years that can't even be identified after a small accident and theres some things I can do such as race MX all day that pounds the body including wearing a heavy helmut without an issue and some things I can't such as ride a roller coaster so get a clue on the subject.

IMO calling someone out on an injury is pretty low.



So youre claiming its ok to ride horses and race karts with a "serious" kneck injury? jeez and you call me low.

Mansell out qualifying the two title contenders, and the look on schumacher's face was impressive on its own. You dont need to find anything to belittle that achievement. If Schumacher out qualified Vettel and webber in the next race this place would explode.

As for getting a clue.
Ive had kneck injuries from karting, and karts do pull G's. Michael uses Karts to train for F1 fitness, as do Button and several other drivers.

Its truly amazing the lengths some people will go to to make excuses for schumacher it really is. His injury was unfortunate, and no doubt gives him problems, as did Johnny herbert's leg and Mansell's back.

Edited by Mr2s, 13 October 2010 - 10:11.


#6778 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:51

Theres not a single historian that will agree with you that they were equal always giving the nudge to the Williams. Oh and I was around in that era.

Yes Mansell outqualified Hill and MS but in the race both Hill and Schumacher pulled away from Mansell at the rate of one second per lap, something that seems strange to me about that especially if you take his very uncompetitive '95 drives into consideration.



You compared the 94 williams to the 2010 Red Bull. Ridiculous statement.

Who are these historians?

Senna told prost he was convinced Benetton were cheating. They were indeed caught and punished at least 3 times for cheating. On those occasions I very much doubt the Williams was as good, especially with Senna complaining about the handling, as did Hill and Mansell. It was later admitted by Newey the Williams had a design fault.
I can also quote David Williams from the team saying at times they were working very hard to catch Benetton.

Edited by Mr2s, 13 October 2010 - 09:55.


#6779 arknor

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:53

Yeah good luck getting Michael (or tom cruise) to turn up for an interview rehearsal ;)

cruise and cameron only went on if they got the fastest times :rotfl:

anyone who believes otherwise is gullible they never drove those lap times , even the stigs times we know were faked from people who borrowed the cars to topgear.

no doubt michael already knew what clarkson would say/ask

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#6780 arknor

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 09:57

You compared the 94 williams to the 2010 Red Bull. Ridiculous statement.

Senna told prost he was convinced Benetton were cheating. They were indeed caught and punished at least 3 times for cheating. On those occasions I very much doubt the Williams was as good, especially with Senna complaining about the handling, as did Hill and Mansell. It was later admitted by Newey the Williams had a design fault.

senna claimed benneton had traction control yet it was never found to be true , it was never in the ECU sourcecode...

launch control was and only launch control yet it was reported in a way as if it were traction control "launch control [traction control]" yes the traction of the launch was controlled but after the car launch there was no traction control in the slow corners etc.

senna couldnt possible be slower than someone else , to him he was god its not possible there must be some reason , ahh yes YES! benneton must have cheats! yes yes look it is traction control

er wait a minute mate it wasnt you just got owned :rotfl:

#6781 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:04

senna claimed benneton had traction control yet it was never found to be true , it was never in the ECU sourcecode...

launch control was and only launch control yet it was reported in a way as if it were traction control "launch control [traction control]" yes the traction of the launch was controlled but after the car launch there was no traction control in the slow corners etc.

senna couldnt possible be slower than someone else , to him he was god its not possible there must be some reason , ahh yes YES! benneton must have cheats! yes yes look it is traction control

er wait a minute mate it wasnt you just got owned :rotfl:



Wait a minute, you reading wikipedia makes me owned :rotfl:

It couldnt be proved what any teams were doing in the race. Whats your next move, pull a white rabbit out of a hat to try and own me?


Say what you want about Senna, he was convinced they were cheating and he was right :clap:

Edited by Mr2s, 13 October 2010 - 10:04.


#6782 Nuvol

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:12

20-0 . cry me a river senna fans.

beaten at his own home soil :smoking: then couldnt even start properly. poor senna

#6783 Lifew12

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:16

senna claimed benneton had traction control yet it was never found to be true , it was never in the ECU sourcecode...


Interesting you should say that. A 94 Benneton, as driven by Michael, was recently sold by a dealer in restored to 'as 1994 specification, including traction control....'

#6784 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:19

20-0 . cry me a river senna fans.

beaten at his own home soil :smoking: then couldnt even start properly. poor senna


Overtaken in the pits, with an illegal fuel rig.
Senna was proved right all along. Cheats.

#6785 ivand911

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:22

Senna???????

#6786 Nuvol

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:24

Overtaken in the pits, with an illegal fuel rig.
Senna was proved right all along. Cheats.

He saw a GOD, sure he was right. Then God told him to kill himself at the track :drunk:

He couldnt lose. as he shown almost killing prost;

#6787 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:40

the tailor made tyres is a myth


So much so that it caused enough of a stir for this:

Teams move to ensure fair tyre deals
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87424

"During Bridgestone's time in F1, when there was a tyre war with Michelin, a lot of the early development was done by Ferrari and Michael Schumacher - which gave the team an edge in understanding the car/tyre relationship"


:rotfl:

Would any schumacher fan honestly accept Alonso or Hamilton having this kind of "edge" throughout Pirelli's contract.

NO thought not.



#6788 ivand911

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 10:52

So much so that it caused enough of a stir for this:

Teams move to ensure fair tyre deals
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87424

"During Bridgestone's time in F1, when there was a tyre war with Michelin, a lot of the early development was done by Ferrari and Michael Schumacher - which gave the team an edge in understanding the car/tyre relationship"


:rotfl:

Would any schumacher fan honestly accept Alonso or Hamilton having this kind of "edge" throughout Pirelli's contract.

NO thought not.

Yes, because Michelin didn't have favorite team then?


#6789 arknor

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:16

Interesting you should say that. A 94 Benneton, as driven by Michael, was recently sold by a dealer in restored to 'as 1994 specification, including traction control....'

as i said before it was reported by news sites as "launch control" with brackets "[traction control] besides it that does not make it traction control . . .

the only traction control was the traction during the intial launch of the car off the grid after that there was nothing else.. fia investigated , found and concluded end of

#6790 Lifew12

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:17

as i said before it was reported by news sites as "launch control" with brackets "[traction control] besides it that does not make it traction control . . .

the only traction control was the traction during the intial launch of the car off the grid after that there was nothing else.. fia investigated , found and concluded end of


But the advert said it was equipped with traction control, not launch control (in fact, it was sold twice in a year with the same blurb).



#6791 Clatter

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:21

Yes, because Michelin didn't have favorite team then?


They might have, but not to the extent that BS did with Ferrari.


#6792 arknor

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:42

But the advert said it was equipped with traction control, not launch control (in fact, it was sold twice in a year with the same blurb).

if it really has traction control which i very much doubt its not the same car that run any championship races acording to the FIA's investigation into the source code for the ECU, mclaren has some naughites in there source code aswell to do with gear shifts but it was deemed legal bt the FIA

#6793 Lifew12

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:44

if it really has traction control which i very much doubt its not the same car that run any championship races acording to the FIA's investigation into the source code for the ECU, mclaren has some naughites in there source code aswell to do with gear shifts but it was deemed legal bt the FIA


What if the source codes were cleverly hidden? It was one of Schumachers winning cars from 94.

#6794 ivand911

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:50

Can someone check this at MGP site:
#F1 Learn more about strategy with James Vowles, our team’s Chief Strategist http://bit.ly/cMSQlp
I can't read it. I login and still can see what this guy said. Could be explanation of pit situation at the last race. Copy/paste here or in MGP thread?

Edited by ivand911, 13 October 2010 - 11:53.


#6795 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:53

if it really has traction control which i very much doubt its not the same car that run any championship races acording to the FIA's investigation into the source code for the ECU, mclaren has some naughites in there source code aswell to do with gear shifts but it was deemed legal bt the FIA



Benetton were fined $100,000 for refusing to hand over their source code. (Ferrari were also being investigate but handed theirs over) Benetton's source code contained data that used traction control in conjunction with gear change management for perfect starts.
Nobody can prove how or if it was used in the race.
Senna (the last driver to win with TC) claimed something weird was happening in corners and the Benetton had much better traction. Benetton were blatantly lying for the reasons why the code was left on the car. We can only draw our own Conclusions from Senna's statements, Benetton's lies and further cheating.

IMO the code that Benetton refused to hand over, that was later found to have invisible options, was used being used illegally during races by Michael Schumacher.

Edited by Mr2s, 13 October 2010 - 11:55.


#6796 Clatter

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:55

if it really has traction control which i very much doubt its not the same car that run any championship races acording to the FIA's investigation into the source code for the ECU, mclaren has some naughites in there source code aswell to do with gear shifts but it was deemed legal bt the FIA


The FIA's investigation found that the source did contain hidden TC code that could be accessed by the driver. The only thing they couldn't prove was that it actually been used. Personally i think the fact it was there should have been enough to have been expelled from the competition.


#6797 aditya-now

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 11:55

probably would have been schumacher in the mclaren...


Thanks for the link, arknor, that was exactly the one clip I was referring to, it's ridiculous how Ron Dennis is paternalizing Michael. Fun how Michael smiled, he didn't like that approach of Ron Dennis at all, the chemistry is simply not there.

Coming back, Mika Hakkinen in the Ferrari would have had to beat Mika Hakkinen in the McLaren then....


#6798 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:02

Mika was a fantastic driver, really complete package.

probably MS's best rival

#6799 Mr2s

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:08

Thanks for the link, arknor, that was exactly the one clip I was referring to, it's ridiculous how Ron Dennis is paternalizing Michael. Fun how Michael smiled, he didn't like that approach of Ron Dennis at all, the chemistry is simply not there.



The TV camera hardly made it the most natural environment.
Not that I think Ron would have appeared much warmer, but I can see exactly where he is coming from with Michael being beyond the limit. I think Michael just knows he is invincible, coming out of plenty of wrecked Benetton's and Ferrari's where other drivers havn't been so lucky.






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#6800 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 6,760 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:09

Mika was a fantastic driver, really complete package.

probably MS's best rival


At least the one whom Michael himself acknowledged. Probably because he beat Mika in the end, so he had reason to be magnaminous. He had trouble acknowledging Alonso, though, probably because he was well and truly beaten by Fernando....