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#6851 cheapracer

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:24

“In the event, Michael had a competitive pit lane entry and exit, indeed the fastest of the weekend from all drivers, the result being his pit-stop was significantly faster than average, putting him closer to Nico than expected.


Lets not forget that MS was famous for practicing pit lane entry at all races. As to good starts he also lays rubber often at the warm up start to increase traction for the start, obviously well known to drag racers - wonder if theres a touch of traction fluid under the tyre warmers ;)


Im no expert, but that doesnt mean I will sit here and take insults.


You are blantently not an expert but you continue to post on technical details outside your scope of knowlege. You post evidence contradictiing your own convictions above but debating with you is, well it's not debating.

I find it disturbing that people like yourselves abuse and insult non members all day long without proof or evidence. Almost every one of your posts contains some form of hate and sourness directed at Schumacher or Benneton with absolute maloquence.

It takes time to get used to it but I am finding the ignore button a handy item, bye bye. :wave:

Edited by cheapracer, 14 October 2010 - 02:31.


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#6852 black magic

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:17

I wouldnt give that press release any credibility.

if most of us wishing michael onwards could work out he should have pitted later then howcome it becomes apparant to the mighty brains of mercedes after the event.

it would be better not to insult our intelligence and just say we wanted nico to have the best chance to collect more points and sacrificed miachaels chances of finishing ahead. not even team tactics.

#6853 baddog

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:36

I wouldnt give that press release any credibility.

if most of us wishing michael onwards could work out he should have pitted later then howcome it becomes apparant to the mighty brains of mercedes after the event.

it would be better not to insult our intelligence and just say we wanted nico to have the best chance to collect more points and sacrificed miachaels chances of finishing ahead. not even team tactics.


Its actually kind of nuts.. Heidfeld was closing on Rosberg but was never going to be at him let alone pass before Michael joined them.. So they basically decided that certainly dropping Michael behind rosberg was a better choice than him almost certainly being ahead of both but for an imaginary 'we might have a bad stop and then he could end up behind BOTH' scenario.

Sharp as a brick.

#6854 ivand911

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:03

Good discussion here. For me Nico and Michael started equal at the beginning of the 2010. For some reasons Michael lost 40 points at the first 4 races(bad luck and not good showing in China). From there he try to get the balance in the points back. He did 3 good races with no points in Monaco. Canada(good start, after one moment was test drive for him), Valencia (good start, wrong pit decision, Nico also was not good there). From this point somewhere I think balance changed from 2 equal drivers to drivers 1 and 2. This mean one driver was favorite, other was just taking points for WCC. Germany show this(again in the pit), Spa(Michael wouldn't try overtake Nico if he didn't made mistake with Petrov, in the end they just did the "right" thing). In Singapore they again didn't pick good strategy for Michael with first SC. They was worried that he can get in the end infront of Nico. With other SC periods. In Japan we all see what happen. Hope he continue good showing in Korea with his favorite combination soft/hard tyres. But,there they have to much slow corners?

Edited by ivand911, 14 October 2010 - 07:09.


#6855 ivand911

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:55

Eddie Jordan on Michael Schumacher "It was a different Schumacher at Suzuka" http://translate.goo...ka-2799922.html
Oh boy! Until next bad race.

#6856 7timesbetterthantherest

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 13:39

I've been reading this forum and the Schumacher-based threads for many months now and I would like to have my say ...

To all the Michael Schumacher fans here :up: and :wave:

It was great to see that Schumacher had the SPEED at Suzuka ! After a not-so great comeback 2010 season(to MS's standard), SPA and Japan were signs Schumacher is far from being finished like the haters would like for us to believe ...

I will never give a reply to the MS haters and bashers becuase I don't want to give them any satisfaction , since they are mostly here to troll and fish and nothing else...

Im extremely confident about 2011 and bring it on ASAP ....Rumours, yes ''rumours'', has it that Mercedes are building a monster of a machine ...so lets cross our fingers about that one !

I'm really tired of hearing the case that 2010 drivers are better now than ALL PREVIOUS generations of racers before hand ...
Where is this scientific PROOF that Vettel and co are faster and more complete drivers to the ones who were racing in the 90's ?
There is none ... This is all BS....Is a Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso faster than a Mika Hakkinen or Michael Schumacher at their PRIMES ?? Hard to swallow and far from reality .....

Martin Brundle , one of Schumacher's many distractors, said in 07, that he believed Schumacher would have won the 2007 championship over Raikkonen . YES he said that ! The notion that most bashers say MS was finished in 2006 and he was beat by Alonso is so much crap, that it's laughable ...Schumacher never lost out to FA in 05 and 06 .... Yes the bashers are right, Schumacher never had SHOT Bridgestone tires in 2005 ( making his Ferrari a sitting-duck that year) and never had an engine blow-up+mechanical failures at Suzuka and Brazil 06 ... Yes they are right - Alonso beat MS ... whatever .....

Bring on 2011 I say -



#6857 ivand911

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 13:49

7timesbetterthantherest, Welcome. :wave:

#6858 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 13:55

I've been reading this forum and the Schumacher-based threads for many months now and I would like to have my say ...

To all the Michael Schumacher fans here :up: and :wave:

It was great to see that Schumacher had the SPEED at Suzuka ! After a not-so great comeback 2010 season(to MS's standard), SPA and Japan were signs Schumacher is far from being finished like the haters would like for us to believe ...

I will never give a reply to the MS haters and bashers becuase I don't want to give them any satisfaction , since they are mostly here to troll and fish and nothing else...

Im extremely confident about 2011 and bring it on ASAP ....Rumours, yes ''rumours'', has it that Mercedes are building a monster of a machine ...so lets cross our fingers about that one !

I'm really tired of hearing the case that 2010 drivers are better now than ALL PREVIOUS generations of racers before hand ...
Where is this scientific PROOF that Vettel and co are faster and more complete drivers to the ones who were racing in the 90's ?
There is none ... This is all BS....Is a Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso faster than a Mika Hakkinen or Michael Schumacher at their PRIMES ?? Hard to swallow and far from reality .....

Martin Brundle , one of Schumacher's many distractors, said in 07, that he believed Schumacher would have won the 2007 championship over Raikkonen . YES he said that ! The notion that most bashers say MS was finished in 2006 and he was beat by Alonso is so much crap, that it's laughable ...Schumacher never lost out to FA in 05 and 06 .... Yes the bashers are right, Schumacher never had SHOT Bridgestone tires in 2005 ( making his Ferrari a sitting-duck that year) and never had an engine blow-up+mechanical failures at Suzuka and Brazil 06 ... Yes they are right - Alonso beat MS ... whatever .....

Bring on 2011 I say -


aditya-now can learn of you. Welcome.

#6859 Lifew12

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 14:12

Rumours, yes ''rumours'', has it that Mercedes are building a monster of a machine


Great news for Rosberg, then, gievn he's clearly quicker in general than Michael.

I'm really tired of hearing the case that 2010 drivers are better now than ALL PREVIOUS generations of racers before hand ...


With respect, where has this 'case' been put forward?

Is a Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso faster than a Mika Hakkinen or Michael Schumacher at their PRIMES ?? Hard to swallow and far from reality .....


Is it really that hard to swallow and far from reality? If so, why? Are you saying that you think Michael and Mika the fastest drivers in F1 ever, that there have never been before, and currently are not, drivers faster than them in their prime? I'm interested to see, as you are asking from it from the detractors, where you get your proof for that. For the record, i would vouch that Alonso and Hamilton are more than likely - as two of the top drivers right now - as fast, and possibly faster than, both the aforementioned drivers, and that's why they are where they are.



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#6860 ivand911

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 21:17

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#6861 DarthRonzo

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 22:08

7timesbetterthantherestexceptbritney, Welcome. :wave:

here, here.

So the 2010 season comparison has ended for Ferrari and Mercedes, as both Massa and Schumy can't catch [outscore / outpace] their mates.
That means Massa and Schumy sucks on slick tires and no TC, as well as being poor qualifiers in low tanks.
Nothing to makerade their real tallent this time.
So no uber alles in all kind of cars and conditions, like the F1 greats.

#6862 chrisblades85

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 22:15

here, here.

So the 2010 season comparison has ended for Ferrari and Mercedes, as both Massa and Schumy can't catch [outscore / outpace] their mates.
That means Massa and Schumy sucks on slick tires and no TC, as well as being poor qualifiers in low tanks.
Nothing to makerade their real tallent this time.
So no uber alles in all kind of cars and conditions, like the F1 greats.


Pretty sure won races and infact championships on slicks, no TC and low/full tanks. Actually not pretty sure. He did.

#6863 arknor

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 07:43

Pretty sure won races and infact championships on slicks, no TC and low/full tanks. Actually not pretty sure. He did.

we did this already aparently yhr benneton had traction control when infact the FIA found LAUNCH CONTROL.

aparenty msc has never driven a formula one car that didnt have TC though

#6864 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 11:22

About Qualy. What Karun thinks:
"It may sound like a lot of talking for warming up but believe me, many a qualifying has been ruined by going too slow or fast on the outlaps!"
Michael sometimes overheated his tyres before fast run in the beginning of the season.
Not to miss:
http://www.overdrive...ne-36582-0.html

I don't see this in Michael case:
"The race engineer and the performance engineer (in my case it’s Angel Baena) are the two most important people for a driver. You have to trust each other completely and it is very much a mini team of three within a larger team. You have to believe that your two engineers are doing the best job possible for your interests and will always choose to support their driver first, sometimes even to the detriment of the team."

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2010 - 11:39.


#6865 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 12:22

aparenty msc has never driven a formula one car that didnt have TC though

pre 1994? come on
don't tell me the jordan in which he impressed first had TC

#6866 Mastah

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 16:05

Q3 lap:

http://www.formula1....p;inptT=Onboard

#6867 7timesbetterthantherest

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 16:10

this was Schumacher's interview and announcement to the world he was coming back to F1 : December 2009 ...BBC Interview



Looking back at it , Schumacher has always amazed me how he keeps the SAME and CONSTANT thought process ... He is super-smart and analyses things with extreme detail .... He explains everything with self-belief and uses LOGIC ....for a guy who has been (and still is and forever will be) the biggest name in the history of Formula-One ( and all motorsport included) his ego does'nt seem to be dissillusioned ....

Take a look at this interview : Schumacher has been repeating what he said in december 09 up until now , and he was mostly right from the beginning :

Schumacher :''I would'nt have enterned in all this if I would'nt have felt 100% CONFIDENT''

asked if he had any concerns about coming back after 3 years out and about his legacy he said :

''I'm very MOTIVATED, I'm THRILLED and I'm EXCITED - and that's what counts really . It's what I look for , I look for the challenge'' .....

Still to this day ,months after his return , Schumacher uses the same words that he did in DECEMBER !

----

Obviously, with Brawn GP winning both titles last year in 09 , Schumacher might have thought he would be fighting for the championship this year too ... He also has stated this year, after returning, that he underestimated the 2010 F1 cars ... The 2010 cars and odd 2010 tires is black & white compared to what he was used to driving 4 years ago in 2006 ....I noticed immdiately in Bahrain that Schumacher was'nt driving LIKE MICHAEL SCHUMACHER ... He was'nt attacking the corners in the same way he did before .... He was driving pretty cautiously.
I really believe that these new stupid 2010 rules are handicapping Schumacher's way of driving. He can't be on that same ''edge'' he use to be in the past , with all of this tire conservation Bullcrap that drivers have to deal with now .....

Schumacher has shot down the claim taht 2010 is a more competetive field of drivers ... (which I always denied myself too) ...

'' There have always been very good drivers, the difference now is that there are more competetive cars, so the competition is abit tighter ''...


BRING ON 2011 - GO Michael ! :up:

#6868 7timesbetterthantherest

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 19:00

Good MS interview and Times article :

http://www.timeslive...an-on-a-mission

This is my favourite part :

Everybody was excited when I came back, but I am not sure this will be the case when we have the car and we get sorted out."

Many will take that remark as an empty threat, but it sounds much more like a promise from the Schumacher of old.



Go Michael :up:

#6869 aditya-now

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 22:01

Schumacher has shot down the claim taht 2010 is a more competetive field of drivers ... (which I always denied myself too) ...

'' There have always been very good drivers, the difference now is that there are more competetive cars, so the competition is abit tighter ''...


That´s a valid point, in Michael´s heyday Michael had the most competitive car for many years, together with a watertight contractual #1 position in his team. No wonder he finds it harder now that he is not in that priviledged postion anymore.


#6870 arknor

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 22:15

That´s a valid point, in Michael´s heyday Michael had the most competitive car for many years, together with a watertight contractual #1 position in his team. No wonder he finds it harder now that he is not in that priviledged postion anymore.

pfft if red bull were competent they would have run away with the championship already

#6871 Mr2s

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 22:30

Many will take that remark as an empty threat, but it sounds much more like a promise from the Schumacher of old. [/color]


Go Michael :up:



That will be something if Merc can give him what Ferrari did from 97 on.


#6872 Mr2s

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 22:36

pfft if red bull were competent they would have run away with the championship already


No michael and the above poster are right. He says the cars are more competitive, meaning the two red bulls can also take points off each other (not allowed in schumachers day), as they have indeed done. In addition to shooting themselves in the foot.
Give Webber a Barrichello or Irvine contract, and you have one less competitive car for the teams main entry.

Edited by Mr2s, 17 October 2010 - 22:40.


#6873 arknor

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 22:57

No michael and the above poster are right. He says the cars are more competitive, meaning the two red bulls can also take points off each other (not allowed in schumachers day), as they have indeed done. In addition to shooting themselves in the foot.
Give Webber a Barrichello or Irvine contract, and you have one less competitive car for the teams main entry.

he pretty much was anyway until vettel started beeing stupid throwing races away..

ramming button at spa , his own team mate wherever it was, anymore i cant remember?

#6874 Clatter

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 23:54

he pretty much was anyway until vettel started beeing stupid throwing races away..

ramming button at spa , his own team mate wherever it was, anymore i cant remember?


Think you will find that Webber is pretty equal in the ramming stakes this year though.

#6875 cheapracer

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 03:51

I'm really tired of hearing the case that 2010 drivers are better now than ALL PREVIOUS generations of racers before hand ...
Where is this scientific PROOF that Vettel and co are faster and more complete drivers to the ones who were racing in the 90's ?
There is none ... This is all BS....Is a Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso faster than a Mika Hakkinen or Michael Schumacher at their PRIMES ?? Hard to swallow and far from reality .....


Totally provable.

The advancements in nutrition and training, both physical and especially psychological are ongoing and continuous - nutritionists have just been banned from the grid monitoring their drivers up to the very last minute. A little different from Keke having a smoke at the last minute or James and his hemp and hump.

Then theres the attitude, when i was a teen I could do 720's on skateboards, mono wheel BMX, take tabletops in MX - watch any "Extreme Games" today and see what they do, simply unbeleiveable, so yes I do believe todays young F1 driver is willing to push harder and closer to the limit for a result.

The record books are constantly changing in every sport due to better knowledge of the human systems, thinking that billion dollar motor sports is exempt from improvements in this critical area of performance is just extremely naive.

Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg and Vettle all came through together and you think what, it's just a coincidence they are all at the pointy end so quickly?


#6876 DarthRonzo

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 04:21

Schumy is doing great advertising for the Silver Arrow Co.

"I can win with Ferrari, but not with Mercedes".

#6877 slaveceru

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:00

Totally provable.

The advancements in nutrition and training, both physical and especially psychological are ongoing and continuous - nutritionists have just been banned from the grid monitoring their drivers up to the very last minute. A little different from Keke having a smoke at the last minute or James and his hemp and hump.

Then theres the attitude, when i was a teen I could do 720's on skateboards, mono wheel BMX, take tabletops in MX - watch any "Extreme Games" today and see what they do, simply unbeleiveable, so yes I do believe todays young F1 driver is willing to push harder and closer to the limit for a result.

The record books are constantly changing in every sport due to better knowledge of the human systems, thinking that billion dollar motor sports is exempt from improvements in this critical area of performance is just extremely naive.

Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg and Vettle all came through together and you think what, it's just a coincidence they are all at the pointy end so quickly?

I agree with you to some degree. You forgot to account in your assumption two very important things:
1) The time limit you have to count in this assumption the time which is needed to develop better drivers in average in comparison to previous generation because of the changes made in training system, nutrition, fitness level etc.
2) There is also the limit of human body. You have to answer your self have these drivers already hit the limit of human body in F1 racing? If the answer is yes than there is no more improvement in comparison to previous generation/s even if you change training nutrition or fitness etc. or all the improvement which we see are because of the cars.


#6878 arknor

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:18

Schumy is doing great advertising for the Silver Arrow Co.

"I can win with Ferrari, but not with Mercedes".

why use quotation as if he actually said that when you know he didnt . . . noone could win the championship in this mercedes anyway what do you expect him to say? yea cars great build me another one with just as many flaws next year and we can win the championship , get the weight distribution totally wrong again because i like the handicap , maybe get button in for some testing during the winter so he push the design of the car towards a steaming turd.

maybe you want another rosberg who can win the championship , could have got pole at nearly every race etc rather than someone who is realistic and tells it like it is.

what did both drivers say at the start of the year again? one knew from the off it wasnt good enough

Edited by arknor, 18 October 2010 - 08:18.


#6879 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:21

Newer generation drivers go through intenstive training programs that run over years before they even dare to think about F1
they are mentally more prepared and have a lot more knowledge about the technical aspects.
Even fans like us understand a lot of concept which were only available to technicians in f1 a few decades ago. we are here debating a lot about handling and stuff
there is simply so much information that everybody shares, the level gets higher and higher

I am not sure the peaks are so much higher but the average level for sure it is

I was reading Karun's article and he was mentioning about the ECU providing acceleation under braking to improve stability. I remember MS used to do this himself (keep the foot on the throttle even when braking). Guess what, the ECU does it now

there are no "tricks" you can keep...that's why we see people generally pretty fast when things go their way or start to struggle a little when they don't

we also have a different view on struggling that 10 years ago...constantly being 0.2-0.3 from your team mate today is a big problem....

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#6880 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:37

Thanks, baddog, that is a proper and reasonable answer.

It still puzzles me then if it is true that he gets "a great deal of unreasonable abuse" about it. Naturally it concerns him and he cannot sit wholly happy - when Rubens tried in the same way to reassert himself he was termed a "whiner".

Now is he getting a pounding from Rosberg or not, that´s a good question.

Because if he isn´t, then it is all down to race luck who of the two was the driver to become the number one for the year (following your line of reasoning) as determined by the first races of the year - meaning, that because the team suits their strategies now to accommodate Rosberg, the car is being developed for Rosberg ("the car was not always the same") and other factors that seem to generally not go in the favour of MS, then he sees now the reverse side of something that many of his teammates have experienced throughout the years.

You have me puzzled here, baddog. I never believed that this could ever happen to Michael.


Rubens is a proven whiner though, Aditya, and has been so throughout his long career. Schumacher has rarely been outspoken or so vocal. I don't think it's fair to term Schumacher a whiner just yet - based on one outspoken comment to a newspaper. Rubens on the other hand has done it on live TV in front of hundreds of millions on numerous occasion.


#6881 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:43

here, here.

So the 2010 season comparison has ended for Ferrari and Mercedes, as both Massa and Schumy can't catch [outscore / outpace] their mates.
That means Massa and Schumy sucks on slick tires and no TC, as well as being poor qualifiers in low tanks.
Nothing to makerade their real tallent this time.
So no uber alles in all kind of cars and conditions, like the F1 greats.


Did the 1995 Benneton have traction control?
The 1997 Ferrari?
The 1998 Ferrari?
The 1999 Ferrari?
The 2000 Ferrari?

Didn't Schumacher win with slick tyres in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997? Or are all these imagined events by millions of people and Schumacher does just simply 'suck'? You should stop reading gutter press material, and go and analyse history.

Or are you just hanging onto the events of 1994?

#6882 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:49

That´s a valid point, in Michael´s heyday Michael had the most competitive car for many years, together with a watertight contractual #1 position in his team. No wonder he finds it harder now that he is not in that priviledged postion anymore.



Ahh but Aditya, #1 status is earned. It isn't a right. The other guy has to match and beat the other guy to get a fair crack. Look at Webber-Vettel for instance. Vettel was clearly favoured yet Mark Webber established his dominance over Vettel and has the team onside now. Schumacher's team mates have never done that and just whined (Rubens) or left because the heat in the kitchen was too high.

You have to make your mark within a team; Schumacher did that and by rights became defacto number one.

#6883 as65p

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:51

Did the 1995 Benneton have traction control?
The 1997 Ferrari?
The 1998 Ferrari?
The 1999 Ferrari?
The 2000 Ferrari?


Those are all very good questions! :)

#6884 arknor

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 08:58

Did the 1995 Benneton have traction control?
The 1997 Ferrari?
The 1998 Ferrari?
The 1999 Ferrari?
The 2000 Ferrari?

Didn't Schumacher win with slick tyres in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997? Or are all these imagined events by millions of people and Schumacher does just simply 'suck'? You should stop reading gutter press material, and go and analyse history.

Or are you just hanging onto the events of 1994?

we did this already 1994 he didnt have traction control , if you can proove otherwise im sure the FIA would be very intrested

1994 FIA investigations found LAUNCH CONTROL, which some newspapers/websites reported as LAUNCH CONTROL [traction control]

there was no traction control apart from during the launch of the car because it was launch control , if you look into how the launch control actually worked in 1994 on the benneton its not possible to have any traction control anywhere other than the start of the car

#6885 Lifew12

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:04

if you look into how the launch control actually worked in 1994 on the benneton its not possible to have any traction control anywhere other than the start of the car


Nonsense; it could easily have worked at times other than the start as it was fundamentally the same thing. If you were around at the time you would have read many techincal geezers telling you how. Whether it was used, or not, is the point in question.


#6886 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:05

Those are all very good questions! :)


Well, the cars passed the FIA tests so I guess they must have been illegal. Or is there some conspiracy here where the FIA have now been on Schumacher's payroll since 1995? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Didn't Mclaren have an illegal car in 1998 with the third brake pedal?

Didn't Renault have an illegal mass damper in 2006?

Or is only Schumacher under scrutiny?

#6887 Lifew12

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:07

Didn't Mclaren have an illegal car in 1998 with the third brake pedal?


Not until the FIA decided it was illegal. It didn't break any rules.

Didn't Renault have an illegal mass damper in 2006?


Not until the FIA decided it was illegal. It didn't break any rules.

Or is only Schumacher under scrutiny?


I'm not for all this 'Michael can't drive without TC' stuff because it's bollocks; however, this tread is about him!

#6888 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:08

Nonsense; it could easily have worked at times other than the start as it was fundamentally the same thing. If you were around at the time you would have read many techincal geezers telling you how. Whether it was used, or not, is the point in question.



You can't imply that it was used and then retract it by questioning if it was or wasn't used.

Did Schumacher cheat or didn't he cheat in 1994? What about his team mates? What about other cars? What about Schumacher's team mates? Why didn't the FIA catch them? Why weren't they reprimanded, fined or ejected out of the championship?

#6889 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:09

Not until the FIA decided it was illegal. It didn't break any rules.



Not until the FIA decided it was illegal. It didn't break any rules.



I'm not for all this 'Michael can't drive without TC' stuff because it's bollocks; however, this tread is about him!



If those cars didn't brake rules, why did the FIA decide they were illegal? :rotfl:

Don't tell me, they were on Ferraris payroll :rotfl:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 18 October 2010 - 09:09.


#6890 Tombstone

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:09

Didn't Mclaren have an illegal car in 1998 with the third brake pedal?

Didn't Renault have an illegal mass damper in 2006?


No.

No.

Although of course the fia was in ferari's pocket back then, so whether something was illegal didn't matter as long as the device got banned.

#6891 Tombstone

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:11

Nonsense; it could easily have worked at times other than the start as it was fundamentally the same thing. If you were around at the time you would have read many techincal geezers telling you how. Whether it was used, or not, is the point in question.


It would be interestin if Stepney was eventually able to publish his book - sadly something I doubt will happen. I believe he was a Bennetton before moving to ferari.

Edited by Tombstone, 18 October 2010 - 09:11.


#6892 Lifew12

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:22

You can't imply that it was used and then retract it by questioning if it was or wasn't used.


I didn't imply it was used. I don't know if it was used. I know it could have been and was refuting the posters assertion that it could only have been 'launch control', which isn't so.

#6893 Lifew12

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:26

If those cars didn't brake rules, why did the FIA decide they were illegal? :rotfl:

Don't tell me, they were on Ferraris payroll :rotfl:


I never said anything about the FIA being on Ferrari's payroll, and don't know why you're rolling on the floor laughing when anyon with an inch of sense knows that neither the McLaren brake pedal or the Renault mass damper were not in any way against the regulations.

#6894 slaveceru

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:40

I never said anything about the FIA being on Ferrari's payroll, and don't know why you're rolling on the floor laughing when anyon with an inch of sense knows that neither the McLaren brake pedal or the Renault mass damper were not in any way against the regulations.

All those parts in different teams made the car and the driver quicker in the race track so if you are referring that Scumacher won WDC in 1994 because of TC than Alosno won WDC because of mass damper in 2005 and Mika won his WDC because of the third pedal break.

Edited by slaveceru, 18 October 2010 - 09:41.


#6895 Lifew12

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 09:48

if you are referring that Scumacher won WDC in 1994 because of TC


I'm not, but your argument wouldn't stand up even if I was; launch control - let alone traction control - was expressly forbidden by the regulations at the beginning of 1994. There was no such rule forbidding the mass damper or the third brake pedal.

Edited by Lifew12, 18 October 2010 - 09:49.


#6896 cheapracer

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:24

we did this already 1994 he didnt have traction control , if you can proove otherwise im sure the FIA would be very intrested

1994 FIA investigations found LAUNCH CONTROL, which some newspapers/websites reported as LAUNCH CONTROL [traction control]

there was no traction control apart from during the launch of the car because it was launch control , if you look into how the launch control actually worked in 1994 on the benneton its not possible to have any traction control anywhere other than the start of the car


Recently I have watched a number of 1994 races and there is not a single start of Schumacher's that is abnormal.

For those who weren't around in 1994 this race, the British GP, is the key to all of the bullshit that happened to Schumacher - Adelaide 1994, has sweet stuff all to do with what some of the folks here carry on about - had this crap not happened to Schumacher at the British GP then Hill wouldn't even have had a look in at Adelaide. Interesting perspective and comments from the commentators 10 years later as they look back including David Hobbs, a very respected English driver.

Heres some of the points;

Stewards decision 30 minutes after the incident was illegal (15 minute rule)
Black flag without notification to the team.
Black flag for what ??? (related to the actual race)
Black flag retracted and 5 second stop/go given (again for what?? related to the race)
Penalty served yet ends up 3 race ban and 1/2 million dollar fine - WTF??

http://v.youku.com/v...MzMTg4MjM2.html

Seriously, Brits should be embarrassed by the 1994 British GP - lucky you got Adelaide to whine and bitch about and simply ignore the rest of the season.


1994 on track =

Schumacher 10 wins (won 6 of the first 7 races, number 8 was the Brit GP which he was leading)
Vs
Hill 3 wins - MS stuck in 5th gear at Spain, the British GP shamozzle and a tactical error at Japan in the second heat (MS won the first heat) but all these 3 Schumacher was leading and then Hill won by default.

And some of you are still adamant that Schumacher didn't deserve the 1994 WDC??? :rotfl: :rotfl: I fart in your general direction.

Edited by cheapracer, 18 October 2010 - 10:28.


#6897 Augurk

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 10:58

http://v.youku.com/v...MzMTg4MjM2.html

Seriously, Brits should be embarrassed by the 1994 British GP - lucky you got Adelaide to whine and bitch about and simply ignore the rest of the season.

Interesting that on 3:55 Hakkinen also passes Alesi on the formation lap. Did he get a penalty? Guess not, as he finished 3rd.

Also, as the commentators say: "The same thing happened at the Brazil grand prix and nothing was made of it" and "This is the first time I'd ever heard of anything like this. Every grid I'd ever been on it got completely jumbled up during the formation lap".

A mild infraction, with the FIA not adhering to its own rules, lacking communication and making an altogether mess out of it results in a 3 race DSQ for MSC.

#6898 tifosiMac

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:05

we did this already 1994 he didnt have traction control , if you can proove otherwise im sure the FIA would be very intrested

1994 FIA investigations found LAUNCH CONTROL, which some newspapers/websites reported as LAUNCH CONTROL [traction control]

there was no traction control apart from during the launch of the car because it was launch control , if you look into how the launch control actually worked in 1994 on the benneton its not possible to have any traction control anywhere other than the start of the car

Its funny because one of Schuey's Benetton's came up for auction and it was specified as having 'traction control'. I remember seeing it in Autosport and it was all discussed in a jokey manner. They can't really prove whether it had this feature in 1994 or whether the millionnaire who bought it in the first place paid many thousands to have it installed after the season was through. :)

#6899 tifosiMac

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:06

Seriously, Brits should be embarrassed by the 1994 British GP - lucky you got Adelaide to whine and bitch about and simply ignore the rest of the season.

Not embarrased at all, Damon got there in the end. :)

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#6900 Lifew12

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 11:18

Heres some of the points;

Stewards decision 30 minutes after the incident was illegal (15 minute rule)
Black flag without notification to the team.
Black flag for what ??? (related to the actual race)
Black flag retracted and 5 second stop/go given (again for what?? related to the race)
Penalty served yet ends up 3 race ban and 1/2 million dollar fine - WTF??

Seriously, Brits should be embarrassed by the 1994 British GP - lucky you got Adelaide to whine and bitch about and simply ignore the rest of the season.


Although I thought the penalty harsh and the rule absurd, I really do feel that, if you are going to give us 'points', you should get them right.

The penalty was conveyed to the team both verbally and electronically, a few minutes apart, coming up to half an hour into the race. The fifteen miinute rule was discussed at the hearing (you can find the conclusion on the FIA site) and was, rather glibly, dismissed as 'a formality'. Still, this doesn't quite get past the fact that Schumacher had, in fact, broken a rule, and that the team were informed and - as Michael admitted at the hearing - had informed him, and told him to carry on.

Rather as there was a fifteen minute 'rule' for applying penalties, so there was a three lap one for carryin them out; Benetton, for reasons I shall never understand, chose not to have their driver do so.

Around ten minutes after the team had been told of the penalty, the FIA applied the black flag; the team knew of this (it was not, as written above, given 'without notification' and neither was it, at any point, 'retracted') and at the hearing Michael said he hadn't seen it. He had seen, he admitted, the 'Car 5' board that hung out with it - right next to it - but not the flag itself. The board, quite rightly, rejected this claim as everyone could see the bloody thing.

It was, alll in all, far from an embarrasment to 'us brits' unless, of course, they happened to be Schumacher supporters (of whom it may surprise you to know there were quite a few back then) but rather a day for which bennetton should hang their heads in shame, for in their attempt to be clever and try and get one over the rule makers they lost their driver valuable points. Had they simply accepted the stop/go there would have been much less of a problem.