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#7501 ivand911

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:09

Can someone explain what happened at the second stop? Did both drivers stop?

I could see Rosberg stopped twice and one stop was a disaster. So how could he be in front of Michael?

Michael was last in the same lap with leaders, he was last of all cars on the track(7th in classification). When Nico pit he get behind Michael ,so he was last on the track. So he didn't lose anything when he pit one more time. Why they didn't pit Michael too, he was also last, if they pit him second time before Nico 3rd time he could stay ahead of him. But ,this was not the plan. They both can change their tyres without loosing place. MGP just decided to save one set of tyres , to save some money.


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#7502 Tarzaan

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:09

Actually, there is an explanation for both
1. Mercedes were simply reacting to Button's pitstop, thats why they pitted MS with Hamilton. As it turned out, Button ended up jumping MS in the pits. Perhaps they reacted too late, and not too early as you are suggesting.

2. Team orders at this stage makes perfect sense to me. Rosberg has been faster for most of the year, and he has a chance at catching Massa in the WDC and stretching his lead over Kubica. So, why not ?

Check out the standings :
Massa 143
Rosberg 130
Kubica 126

Its quite close I would say, and Schumacher fans of all people shouldnt be complaining of team orders ? ;)



Not for a P6...

#7503 Spa95

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:10

Schumacher confirming that he let Rosberg past at the restart because he was much faster (If only Rosberg would have done the same at Suzuka).

#7504 mani1

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:11

Actually, there is an explanation for both
1. Mercedes were simply reacting to Button's pitstop, thats why they pitted MS with Hamilton. As it turned out, Button ended up jumping MS in the pits. Perhaps they reacted too late, and not too early as you are suggesting.

2. Team orders at this stage makes perfect sense to me. Rosberg has been faster for most of the year, and he has a chance at catching Massa in the WDC and stretching his lead over Kubica. So, why not ?

Check out the standings :
Massa 143
Rosberg 130
Kubica 126

Its quite close I would say, and Schumacher fans of all people shouldnt be complaining of team orders ? ;)


1)BUT was lapping faster than MSC and he had pitted long time ago. There was no way MSC could have pitted and started challenging BUT again. Then, even if the geniuses at Mercedes thought MSC could challenge BUT, they couldn't have waited for two laps so that he could jump SUT? No, the geniuses thought SUT would somehow magically disappear

#7505 iakhtar

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:12

It's just frustrating to see consistantly bad strategy calls for MS, some of them have been beyond belief, you don't even need live timing to figure it out. I just hope there's nothing dodgy going on behind the scenes.

#7506 Beyond

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:13

mercedes is fuxxing up too many races for michael. you must be dumb to make him pit when there's sutil coming... then no new set like rosberg at the end.

#7507 Urawa

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:13

I would not complain if they just admit they´re using MS as a testing donkey or strategy whatever thing.
A simple "yes the 6th place in the WDC is important for us and we do everything we can to achieve it"midseason would have been enough to say where the preference is

#7508 ivand911

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:13

TEAM ORDER twice in one race. New record.

#7509 Spa95

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:15

I would not complain if they just admit they´re using MS as a testing donkey or strategy whatever thing.
A simple "yes the 6th place in the WDC is important for us and we do everything we can to achieve it"midseason would have been enough to say where the preference is

Hear! Hear! :up:

Edited by Spa95, 07 November 2010 - 18:15.


#7510 GoRacing

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:16

That Kubica moron is just pushing too many drivers off the track and doesnt even get reprimanded. MS would have been 6th and well clear of Nico and had a real shot at beating Hamilton into 4th place if Kubica had not pushed him wide.

Edited by GoRacing, 07 November 2010 - 18:23.


#7511 Tarzaan

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:17

Schumacher confirming that he let Rosberg past at the restart because he was much faster (If only Rosberg would have done the same at Suzuka).



It was a very stupid decision from Schumi. I much like his Hungaroring 2010/Monaco 2010 form.

TEAM ORDER twice in one race. New record.



Agreed.

Very sad thatSchumi loose a lot of points because of Mercs tactics.


Melbourne(after his second pit stop)
Monaco
Montreal
Valencia
Hockenheim
Suzuka
Interlagos

Edited by Tarzaan, 07 November 2010 - 18:21.


#7512 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:25

I don't mind Schumacher letting Rosberg through as long as Rosberg and Mercedes publicly acknowledge this.

It would also certainly put to rest the 'Schumi does not deserve a place in F1' bandwagon.

#7513 george1981

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:32

SPEED's guys are saying MSC let him by as a repayment for Rosberg's bad luck with the botched stop? That'd be oddly gentlemanly of him...


I think Schumacher and Rosberg were 7th and 6th respectively when the safety car came out and the last two of the unlapped cars. Rosberg came in got new tyres which allowed him to rejoin in 7th because of where the pack was behind the safety car. The team made an error with the tyres but had the option to correct it and Rosberg could still get out in 7th and catch up on the back of the Schumacher in 6th. Whether Schumacher gave him the place or not doesn't matter because Rosberg with his fresh tyres would have got past him.

What I think is more unusual is why didn't Mercedes bring Schumacher in for new tyres? When the 3 other cars around him did. At worst he would have been 7th but would have been on the same tyres as the rest.

#7514 Urawa

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:35

:rotfl:

Just saw the interview with Michael. "We pitted a bit too early again this race" and he was raising his eyebrow and smiled

It was like a "wtf were they thinking again" moment

Edited by Urawa, 07 November 2010 - 18:37.


#7515 arknor

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:38

:rotfl:

Just saw the interview with Michael. "We pitted a bit too early again this race" and he was raising his eyebrow and smiled

yea hes not stupid he said he let rosberg past aswell

he might aswell try and get webbers spot at red bull less team orders :rotfl:

#7516 Diablobb81

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:39

There are less team orders even at Ferrari. :rotfl:

#7517 arknor

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:41

There are less team orders even at Ferrari. :rotfl:

michael rosberg is not faster than you, do you understand :rotfl:

MSC oh guys the tyres are going off i think maybe i have graining on the rears can you make sure there is traffic behind :down:

#7518 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 18:43

yea hes not stupid he said he let rosberg past aswell

he might aswell try and get webbers spot at red bull less team orders :rotfl:


Schumacher knows the score and is playing the team game.

I just wish the rest of the team had the integrity to admit this.

In Singapore it has recently transpired that he had a broken floor or something yet so many in the media just omit such things as well as the inter-team team orders that are so overtly going on.



#7519 baddog

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 19:00

Kubica is naughty, but Michael of all people is not going to complain about some bump and grind is he?

Bad strategy call dumping him behind an unpassable force india. That was what ruined the race and a possible 4th.

No complaints about the SC period though, and in the end who cares? They got 6th-7th which was all that was available by then and nico needs the points more, let him by.



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#7520 ivand911

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 19:13

There are less team orders even at Ferrari. :rotfl:

This is very true. More team orders for 7th in WDC. I understand it for 1st ,but not for 7th.


#7521 rm111

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 19:18

Kubica is naughty, but Michael of all people is not going to complain about some bump and grind is he?

Bad strategy call dumping him behind an unpassable force india. That was what ruined the race and a possible 4th.

No complaints about the SC period though, and in the end who cares? They got 6th-7th which was all that was available by then and nico needs the points more, let him by.

Ross Brawn has made a fair few uncharacteristically poor strategy decisions this year.
Schumis demeanour and position as a real team player has impressed me this year, hes still a great team leader.

#7522 slaveceru

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 19:28

In last few races Schumacher raised his performance in comparison to Rosberg and his pace in races is in the same level in comparison to Rosberg but he still has problems with qualification. He deserve his place in Mercedes team. He showed that he is a team player and the best second driver on the grid. He is also the test donkey for the strategy calls.

#7523 ivand911

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 20:47

Why you call team decisions, wrong strategy call?? It is their plan to do it, to achieve result they wanted and they achieved it. Didn't see anything wrong here.

#7524 pRy

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 20:49

Was that the first time Schumacher has on record allowed a team mate to pass him for position?

#7525 dav115

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 20:50

Was that the first time Schumacher has on record allowed a team mate to pass him for position?

Far from it. Off the top of my head, the extra stopping Barrichello in Imola '03 (who was hotlapping to try and jump (Raikkonen?) in the pitstops, Malaysia '99 where he let Irvine pass him twice in the same race in order for Irvine to win.

Edited by dav115, 07 November 2010 - 20:51.


#7526 Diablobb81

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 20:51

Was that the first time Schumacher has on record allowed a team mate to pass him for position?


He's just mentally preparing Rosberg for next year. :lol: :clap:

Seriously, it's just mind games after what happened at Suzuka.

#7527 FerrariF1Fan

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 20:57

Schumacher confirming that he let Rosberg past at the restart because he was much faster (If only Rosberg would have done the same at Suzuka).


Rosberg wouldn't do it, he is happy now being in the position where the team is favoring him in order to try to jump Felipe in the standings (which won't happen anyway) and he is using it in order to build an image for himself while Schumacher being too nice to him right now.

#7528 smitten

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:03

Was that the first time Schumacher has on record allowed a team mate to pass him for position?


I very clearly remember him letting his brother unlap himself on the final lap. Somebody else DNF'd and Ralf picked up an extra place.

Not for position, obviously, but very wily.

Edited by smitten, 07 November 2010 - 21:03.


#7529 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:05

somebody clearly didn't watch malaysia 1999
or barcelona..was it 2001? when with car trouble he helped rubens pass both him and ralf

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 07 November 2010 - 21:05.


#7530 tohru222

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:06

so everybody was bashing Ferrari like crazy after Germany but when Mercedes do it, it is ok or what?

#7531 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:10

it's not for the win, not midseason and we have no clue it wasn't ms's own decision

#7532 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:14

somebody clearly didn't watch malaysia 1999
or barcelona..was it 2001? when with car trouble he helped rubens pass both him and ralf



It was Catalunya 2000.

It was very clever the way Michael pushed Ralf wide and let Rubens through.

#7533 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:20

so everybody was bashing Ferrari like crazy after Germany but when Mercedes do it, it is ok or what?


Ferrari was too blatant and obvious in Germany this year. Felipe made is as obvious as possible and wanted the rest of the world to know it.

Schumacher - I get the impression - is happy to do it as long as it benefits the team in the long term and that it is sort of obvious too (hence why he made it public today and a few other times). He is very professional about it though and doesn't complain like Massa and Rubens and Webber have done about it.

I get the feeling Schumacher is getting a little pissed off with all the criticism so has just started making it public that 'look guys, there are certain strategies we have adopted this year....Nico's position in the WDC isnt secure, we're trying to secure it for him....I'm testing for next year and doing the donkey work with tyres and letting Nico and the team benefit from it'.

I imagine it's eating him up but being the professional he is, he is more than willing as long as there is a long term benefit for him and the team.

#7534 arknor

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:22

Was that the first time Schumacher has on record allowed a team mate to pass him for position?

when schumacher broke his leg at silverstone and he missed a bunch of races he came back to try and help irvine win the championship and in atleast 2 diference races he let irvine pass, in one race i think schumacher was so fast he had to let irvine past 3 times :rotfl:

#7535 SeanValen

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:37

Ferrari was too blatant and obvious in Germany this year. Felipe made is as obvious as possible and wanted the rest of the world to know it.

Schumacher - I get the impression - is happy to do it as long as it benefits the team in the long term and that it is sort of obvious too (hence why he made it public today and a few other times). He is very professional about it though and doesn't complain like Massa and Rubens and Webber have done about it.

I get the feeling Schumacher is getting a little pissed off with all the criticism so has just started making it public that 'look guys, there are certain strategies we have adopted this year....Nico's position in the WDC isnt secure, we're trying to secure it for him....I'm testing for next year and doing the donkey work with tyres and letting Nico and the team benefit from it'.

I imagine it's eating him up but being the professional he is, he is more than willing as long as there is a long term benefit for him and the team.




I think you pretty much summed it up. Schumacher is willing to take the punches now, and infact if there is no real testing involved and Michael quite publically said that a complete ban on testing is silly, which I agree with, then in a season like 2010, not fighting for wins, I wouldn't be surprised if he's doing other programmes, because your quite limited what you can do with the rules now, I mean in the future, if one driver has been doing better for the first half of the season, I woudn't be surpised if team orders came into play, that the other driver who did less well started doing work for next year or testing out parts in sessions and things. You never know. Michael in the past kept alot of things quiet, so his revelations are quite informative and pretty much needed because everyoine wants to know how he's doing given the legend he is, they want reasons why we need to wait and see his tenture at this team out. It must be frustrating but it something he knows he needs to do. Difficult given a proud man he is of his accomplisments, but says alot how much he wants to win.

Edited by SeanValen, 07 November 2010 - 21:40.


#7536 Juan Kerr

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 21:41

mercedes is fuxxing up too many races for michael. you must be dumb to make him pit when there's sutil coming... then no new set like rosberg at the end.

Shovlin is rubbish

#7537 Muz Bee

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 22:45

Brawn didn't get his old pal Michael into the team at great expense to nobble his results. People need to get off this idea that they are trying to make him look bad. The criticisms and excuses are like a revolving table of "next reason for MS results". Maybe next year we will find out what (if anything) has hampered Michael's performances but at the moment he has not been quick enough in qualifying, sometimes too aggressive on his tyres in races, and at times had been given strategies which in retrospect haven't worked. The latter is one area he has definitely suffered relative to Nico. The excuses about being given time may finally have borne fruit, he has been better over the last few races to the point where he is a challenge for his younger team mate. The luck/mechanical failure/pitstops and so on is pretty even thanks to Nico's poor run of luck recently.

It's really easy for us out here to be critical of people who are among the top of their profession - they don't make these decisions out of spite or favouritism and they don't make errors of judgement because they are incompetent. It is how the sport is and it goes in cycles, look how average McLaren look at the moment. Michael has found something recently and now looks worthy of his seat at Mercedes but still needs to work on his one lap pace. Never before has qualifying positions been so important, all the more reason for admiring Nico's work today - P13 - P6 behind 2 RBs, 2 Macs and a Ferrari. You can't wish for better than that. Michael today did a good job in support.

#7538 black magic

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 23:01

I agree it is not deliberate to make michael look bad. thre is a clear strategy however to maximise rosbergs points which largely seem to be coming at schumachers expense.

eg if pitting michael was the "right" time then rosberg should have been pitted first as running behind and used him as the gauge to the cars coming behind. he qualified higher, had passed button and was looking very pacy initially, if anything marginally quicker than rosberg

I will question decisions however that I by using the internet can see gaps either disappearing or being non existant or here failing to also reshod michael when no apparant penalty to do so - made worse by the fact that rosberg and his side of the garage were allowed, spotted the opportunity.


are we allowed to know who is responsible for the startegy. I wonder whether brawn has deligated it and trying to stay clear to give someone else the chance/experience.

while we are on it, how has jock clear gained this reputation. villeneuve won 1 championship with the best car by some mile and since did what exactly?

clears "promotion" is needed

#7539 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 23:27

while we are on it, how has jock clear gained this reputation. villeneuve won 1 championship with the best car by some mile and since did what exactly?

he almost managed to lose that title

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#7540 dav115

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 01:23

Someone's put Schumacher's Brazil Q3 laps up here.

#7541 cheapracer

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 04:46

I'm sure MS is happy to let Rosberg catch Massa and I'm sure they are working on lots of stuff in the background during the race as it's obviously the only testing time and I wouldn't be surprised if some of MS's car wasn't leaning towards 2011 setups.

Does anyone have but part of a clue what Massa said to MS at the post race weigh in?

#7542 thrillercd

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:06

Does anyone have Michael's start video or Michael and Kubica battle video ?

#7543 britishtrident

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:16

Schumacher confirming that he let Rosberg past at the restart because he was much faster (If only Rosberg would have done the same at Suzuka).


Translates as ------- he knew he couldn't hold Rosberg and didn't want the to be seen to get beaten in a passing manouver by Nico.

Schumacher however is driving much better than he did at the start of the season and is now improving with every race.

#7544 ivand911

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:58

Translates as ------- he knew he couldn't hold Rosberg and didn't want the to be seen to get beaten in a passing manouver by Nico.

Translates as : I know what team want , then I will play for the team, like in Germany, Spa, Japan.


#7545 DanardiF1

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:00

Translates as : I know what team want , then I will play for the team, like in Germany, Spa, Japan.


Bingo

Why waste time squabbling when Michael could weigh up his own situation AND then Rosberg's on top of that, and then reason that it would be better for Nico to have a go at attacking the McLarens if possible. Mercedes scored the same WCC points, and Nico jumped Kubica in WDC too, so good team playing from Schumi, and clever thinking on his and presumably Ross' part too.

Edited by DanardiF1, 08 November 2010 - 13:01.


#7546 vovelo

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:03

That Kubica moron is just pushing too many drivers off the track and doesnt even get reprimanded. MS would have been 6th and well clear of Nico and had a real shot at beating Hamilton into 4th place if Kubica had not pushed him wide.

I agree with you . Kubica did this action second time this year . Remember Canada race when he was too optimistic under the braking and almost crashed into Michael's car .

#7547 arknor

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:07

I agree with you . Kubica did this action second time this year . Remember Canada race when he was too optimistic under the braking and almost crashed into Michael's car .

he did the same thing to alonso at a chicane aswell ?
and probably alot of other drivers we havent witnessed on camera , torro rosso drivers are the same aswell

#7548 zawisza

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 14:21

(GoRacing @ Nov 7 2010, 19:16)
That Kubica moron is just pushing too many drivers off the track and doesnt even get reprimanded. MS would have been 6th and well clear of Nico and had a real shot at beating Hamilton into 4th place if Kubica had not pushed him wide.

(vovelo @ Nov 8 2010, 13:03)
I agree with you . Kubica did this action second time this year . Remember Canada race when he was too optimistic under the braking and almost crashed into Michael's car .

he did the same thing to alonso at a chicane aswell ?
and probably alot of other drivers we havent witnessed on camera , torro rosso drivers are the same aswell


:clap: :rotfl: Thank you, thank you very much. You made my day. Really.

#7549 Spa95

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 14:51

That Kubica moron is just pushing too many drivers off the track and doesnt even get reprimanded. MS would have been 6th and well clear of Nico and had a real shot at beating Hamilton into 4th place if Kubica had not pushed him wide.

Agreed, it's about time Kubica gets some sort of penalty for his driving.

Edited by Spa95, 08 November 2010 - 14:51.


#7550 Frans

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:40

Kubica did just fine on those occasions! What should he have done else? Let Schumacher hit HIM? Come on, it was fair fights with Kubica, Michael simply meets a match right there already. I don't see anything wrong in Kubica's actions at all.

The days where everyone just "moved over" for Der Michael, because he was DER Michael are simply over.