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#7951 ivand911

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 17:11

Just perusing through the 2000 season, Rubens first season at Ferrari, and a similar perusal through last season, Rubens beat Schumi 3 times on merit whilst Schumi beat Rosberg 3 times on merit

Tell us about this "only" three times that Michael beat Nico on merit?


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#7952 Yorkie

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 17:20

Schumacher earned his right to number one status and he maintained that right throughout his career.

His career might have been different if Senna had not been killed, this left him with the likes of Damon Hill being his main opposition with Prost having retired as well

Rubens and MS's status quo was consistant but your statement clearly is meant to read that Rosberg was consistently better all year and MS kind of had a few moments in the same way as Rubens and that's simply not true.

Rosberg was indeed clearly better for the first 3/4's of the year with MS better in "some races" and then it was a different story for the last 1/4 and since this is common knowledge, readable in any race report, online net views, able to be viewed on video around the net, available race and lap times through the FIA, reported consistently along the way in this forum - in other words MS's late year rise to be at least equal performance with Rosberg is totally provable with evidence besides being witnessed by quite a few million people, I can only suggest you have been living in a cave or you are trolling.

You should go with the "if MS has success in 2011 it will be because they designed the car just for him" bitter line, 2010 is finished and in the bag and he ain't going just yet.

I dont go along with any of the excuses lines

#7953 rm111

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 17:24

How long would DC last in todays F1 drivers?

2010 DC, not long.
2001 DC, would live with them(just), as he did with yesterdays drivers. We have a bunch of really top class drivers in competitive cars, but i do not believe like some here that they are all necessarily the greatest guys ever to step in a f1 car. Ok the strength and depth of the drivers might not have always been there when Schumy was at his pomp, but he competed against and beat some great drivers, including one or two of todays drivers, yes they were younger and less experienced, but look at what Vettel and Hammy did with their youth and inexperience. I cant believe how his past ability is doubted, in his prime he made the rest of the grid look average, for a decade he was f1s most complete driver. Now though i fear he's too old.


#7954 Yorkie

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 17:53

Tell us about this "only" three times that Michael beat Nico on merit?

I just looked through the results

#7955 Yorkie

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 17:56

2010 DC, not long.
2001 DC, would live with them(just), as he did with yesterdays drivers. We have a bunch of really top class drivers in competitive cars, but i do not believe like some here that they are all necessarily the greatest guys ever to step in a f1 car. Ok the strength and depth of the drivers might not have always been there when Schumy was at his pomp, but he competed against and beat some great drivers, including one or two of todays drivers, yes they were younger and less experienced, but look at what Vettel and Hammy did with their youth and inexperience. I cant believe how his past ability is doubted, in his prime he made the rest of the grid look average, for a decade he was f1s most complete driver. Now though i fear he's too old.

Well that tends to be my feeling as well rather than all the other excuses

I tend to think the standard is very high at the moment and a young DC would never get a top drive in 2010

Edited by Yorkie, 29 November 2010 - 18:01.


#7956 Number62

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 17:58

You seem to be confused, don't feel bad other here seem to be under the same disallusion, MSC was "THAT good" and THATS why Benneton and then Ferrari put all their resources behind him.

Or do you have another version of why he could command number one status?? I don't believe he is related or married to anyone's daughter of Benneton or Ferrari so come on, there must be some other simply amazing theory of why he was number one ahead of some of the other best drivers in the world .... pick any 2 of his number two drivers and I'll run up their driving history for you so you can see how terrible they are :lol:

What is it that some of you don't simply understand that some teams run number one drivers and some don't?? We all know that Williams have lost 2 WDC's in modern times because of not running a number one. I figure from the Benz Sportscar Team he probably decided early on never to go with a team where he couldn't be number one eventually so Williams and McLaren were probably always out of the question for him - smart move, smart man and now historically the most successful and richest ever because of that (assumed) decision.

Amusing here also is the hypocrisy, when you have the ability to command your own deal with preferential treatment for anything from sports to work to how you want your steak cooked you take it without blinking an eye but when it comes to someone else's right, and an earned right at that, it's a bad thing apparently :confused:

Schumacher earned his right to number one status and he maintained that right throughout his career.

Oh and Rosberg beat him for the first 3/4's of this year fair and square, does that make you happy...... :wave:


Ah bless, you answer the question with a question, nice.

You like the self fulfilling prophecy do you?

So he's that good, or his number two's are terrible (pun intended)?

It's easy to prove empirically he would not be as successful if he had not had unequivocal number 1 status. It's certain he would have had (at least) one victory less.

You've largely agreed with what I said by the way, his success is a function of speed, endeavour, politics, collaboration, a little bit of cheating etc. Nobody has claimed that that isn't a method of winning and that he is the most successful ever. It is however why some claim he isn't the greatest because he wouldn't measure himself against his top flight peers in an equal way. That's why some claim he is overated, not that he's not good, just not as good as he's rated.

#7957 boldhakka

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 18:08

Ah bless, you answer the question with a question, nice.

You like the self fulfilling prophecy do you?

So he's that good, or his number two's are terrible (pun intended)?

It's easy to prove empirically he would not be as successful if he had not had unequivocal number 1 status. It's certain he would have had (at least) one victory less.

You've largely agreed with what I said by the way, his success is a function of speed, endeavour, politics, collaboration, a little bit of cheating etc. Nobody has claimed that that isn't a method of winning and that he is the most successful ever. It is however why some claim he isn't the greatest because he wouldn't measure himself against his top flight peers in an equal way. That's why some claim he is overated, not that he's not good, just not as good as he's rated.


Awesome point. :up:

#7958 Yorkie

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 18:16

Ah bless, you answer the question with a question, nice.

You like the self fulfilling prophecy do you?

So he's that good, or his number two's are terrible (pun intended)?

It's easy to prove empirically he would not be as successful if he had not had unequivocal number 1 status. It's certain he would have had (at least) one victory less.

You've largely agreed with what I said by the way, his success is a function of speed, endeavour, politics, collaboration, a little bit of cheating etc. Nobody has claimed that that isn't a method of winning and that he is the most successful ever. It is however why some claim he isn't the greatest because he wouldn't measure himself against his top flight peers in an equal way. That's why some claim he is overated, not that he's not good, just not as good as he's rated.

I wonder if thats the route Alonso is going to go as well?

#7959 Augurk

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 19:12

It's easy to prove empirically he would not be as successful if he had not had unequivocal number 1 status. It's certain he would have had (at least) one victory less.

Don't be too sure about that. If not for Austria 2002 he might not have felt obliged to give back several to Rubens. Oh, and don't forget Malaysia 1999.

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#7960 ali.unal

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 13:51

I was reading James Allen's book The Edge of Greatness. It says:

In 2006, an assessment indicated that despite being 37, he [MS] had the fitness level of a 25-year-old.



#7961 SEP

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 14:14

How anyone who saw Schumacher drive in his first career can doubt his ability, talent and speed back then is completely beyond me. Hater goggles i suppose.

And btw. Schumi himself never made a secret out of it that #1 status was part of his success. He always defends this type of team strategy in interviews.



Simple. There are people here who had seen him racing (oir even raced against him) since his karting days, F3, DTM, Sportscar and it was easy to tell he was not special at all when talking about driving skills.

Even in kart events MS demands "special conditions" (some call cheating) to be sure he will be competitive with much higher skilled drivers.

Michael definetlly was not a super talent when talking about DRIVING SKILLS. Never was.

Anyway, i think 2011 will show us that Nico and Michael are very much equal, both beeing good drivers. That´s all.

#7962 BRK

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 15:12

Anybody here with brains would've probably realized the fact that continually trying to belittle the achievements of a 7 time world champion,91 grands prix winner,and a driver widely acknowledged as one of the greatest of all time only makes them look like an utter fool to have followed a sport that's full of lousy,talentless drivers (that even people on this BB could 'beat',apparently). For if the most successful guy is/was not a super talent,the rest are quite clearly garbage. Even random chimps on the street can come to that conclusion,only takes some simple application of logic.

So yeah-why spend all this time arguing about a sport that's below par,anyway? How about a shift to ice fishing or lacrosse or something along those lines...?


Edited by BRK, 30 November 2010 - 15:14.


#7963 dde

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 15:37

Ah bless, you answer the question with a question, nice.

It's easy to prove empirically he would not be as successful if he had not had unequivocal number 1 status. It's certain he would have had (at least) one victory less.


That's not easy to prove, given he has given 3 victories to Barrichello the same year.

#7964 cheapracer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 15:45

Michael definetlly was not a super talent when talking about DRIVING SKILLS. Never was.


2 very funny posts above, BRG I lol'ed! :lol:

So about the driving skills SEP, how is it he keeps winning the ROC's yearly and that was even commented by Ross Brawn early this year as part of the reason why he though Schumacher was still competitive ....

You know the ROC where they all get the same cars, even swapped around for fairness ......



#7965 cheapracer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 15:57

You like the self fulfilling prophecy do you?

It's easy to prove empirically he would not be as successful if he had not had unequivocal number 1 status. It's certain he would have had (at least) one victory less.


Err, it's been filled, again I mention some of you seem to be confused on that part - it did actually happen, he is 7 x WDC etc etc. - the denial of that has some foundation of insanity by the way.

Again, gripping at straws to deny what exists, you in no way can prove that he would not have been successful, that time has past, it has already happened.

(And anyway, if you want to play it that way then you need to give him the '99 WDC so it's back to 7 x WDC :lol:).




#7966 Johnrambo

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 17:32

Anybody here with brains would've probably realized the fact that continually trying to belittle the achievements


Who cares about the past? What's relevant is that MS is crap *now*.

#7967 BRG

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 18:04

I was reading James Allen's book The Edge of Greatness. It says: In 2006, an assessment indicated that despite being 37, he [MS] had the fitness level of a 25-year-old.

Oh yes? If he was as fit at 37 as I was at 25 years then he is in BIG trouble!

#7968 SEP

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 18:17

2 very funny posts above, BRG I lol'ed! :lol:

So about the driving skills SEP, how is it he keeps winning the ROC's yearly and that was even commented by Ross Brawn early this year as part of the reason why he though Schumacher was still competitive ....

You know the ROC where they all get the same cars, even swapped around for fairness ......


Agree with Ross Brawn. Michael still competitive, that s correct. He is as fast as he has always been, Nico s level, wich is very high but not Lewis, Alonso s, Vettel or Kubika s level. Not to mention the all time greats.

You should not mention ROC because IF theres is or was a dominant driver, certainly this driver isn t Michael, even if he (Loeb) does not have the privilege Of driving only one type Of car. In fact ROC proves my point . F Albuquerque, Kova and some others showed us that given the same equipment, it is much harder to beat Vettel and specially Loeb, than the most sucesfull driver ever. Much harder than this is to participate in such an event under this exclusive "i can only drive a KTM due contracts i have with A, B or C".

Edited by SEP, 30 November 2010 - 18:22.


#7969 bsoares

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 18:41

Agree with Ross Brawn. Michael still competitive, that s correct. He is as fast as he has always been, Nico s level, wich is very high but not Lewis, Alonso s, Vettel or Kubika s level. Not to mention the all time greats.

You should not mention ROC because IF theres is or was a dominant driver, certainly this driver isn t Michael, even if he (Loeb) does not have the privilege Of driving only one type Of car. In fact ROC proves my point . F Albuquerque, Kova and some others showed us that given the same equipment, it is much harder to beat Vettel and specially Loeb, than the most sucesfull driver ever. Much harder than this is to participate in such an event under this exclusive "i can only drive a KTM due contracts i have with A, B or C".



:rotfl:

Based on their past results I think you can add a few more drivers to that list:

Trulli - Has beaten Alonso in 2004.

Heidfeld - More than a match for Kubica in the years they drove together at BMW.

Webber - Though some might say he isn't as fast as Vettel they were very close all season long.


A few other names that I think, with the proper support from the team, could match and even beat Michael during the course of the season: Luca Badoer, Alex Yoong, Yuji Ide, Chanoch Nissany,...


Please, if you want anyone to take you seriously stop with all this nonsense. :rolleyes:



#7970 Szoelloe

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 18:46

Agree with Ross Brawn. Michael still competitive, that s correct. He is as fast as he has always been, Nico s level, wich is very high but not Lewis, Alonso s, Vettel or Kubika s level. Not to mention the all time greats.

You should not mention ROC because IF theres is or was a dominant driver, certainly this driver isn t Michael, even if he (Loeb) does not have the privilege Of driving only one type Of car. In fact ROC proves my point . F Albuquerque, Kova and some others showed us that given the same equipment, it is much harder to beat Vettel and specially Loeb, than the most sucesfull driver ever. Much harder than this is to participate in such an event under this exclusive "i can only drive a KTM due contracts i have with A, B or C".



LOL

and you are wandering that some here call you names?

Edited by Szoelloe, 30 November 2010 - 18:47.


#7971 zack1994

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:07

people need to understand michael isn't same driver he was, not at all next year he will be much better than he was in 2010 but never will be what he was, im tipping him to win the championship next year though

#7972 SEP

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 19:24

:rotfl:


Please, if you want anyone to take you seriously stop with all this nonsense. :rolleyes:


Huge balls are required for using the word nonsense after all those quotes about Michael x Nico before the season started.


#7973 ivand911

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 20:52

I see, SEP is new joker in town. I know what is his problem: his favourite driver Prost together with another good driver Senna have 7titles like Michael. I guess every title that Michael made over 4th was big blow to him personally. I am just surprised he show so late after season finish. Or maybe he is old acquaintance, only now he use new name.

#7974 Yorkie

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 21:20

2 very funny posts above, BRG I lol'ed! :lol:

So about the driving skills SEP, how is it he keeps winning the ROC's yearly and that was even commented by Ross Brawn early this year as part of the reason why he though Schumacher was still competitive ....

You know the ROC where they all get the same cars, even swapped around for fairness ......

ROC is not F1

people need to understand michael isn't same driver he was, not at all next year he will be much better than he was in 2010 but never will be what he was, im tipping him to win the championship next year though

The bookies will be glad to see you

#7975 baddog

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 21:57

ROC is not F1

ROC is a magical series, in that if Michael loses it proves he was never any good, but at the same time if he wins it is a silly event of no significance.

Cognitive dissonance is a grand sight.

#7976 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 22:00

ROC is a magical series, in that if Michael loses it proves he was never any good, but at the same time if he wins it is a silly event of no significance.

:rotfl: shockingly true!

#7977 SEP

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 22:08

:rotfl: shockingly true!


maybe the reallity, the way it happened, of Michael winning and losing could help you in order to understand that most Of those drivers have the same skills.

#7978 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 23:20

maybe the reallity, the way it happened, of Michael winning and losing could help you in order to understand that most Of those drivers have the same skills.

wow
you managed to write a post that doesn't make any sens. anyone at all

#7979 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 23:22

Simple. There are people here who had seen him racing (oir even raced against him) since his karting days, F3, DTM, Sportscar and it was easy to tell he was not special at all when talking about driving skills.

there are people who claim to be kiddnaped by aliens
there are stupid people
there are incredibly stupid people
there are people allowed to post here even though they have the IQ number of a day in any chosen month

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#7980 iakhtar

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 23:38

Hi everyone! I have no special driving skills and I'm completely average, just came on here to say hello, oh that reminds me, I have to go and arrange an undisputed No1 contract with a high level F1 team, earn millions and win a record amount of championships, anyone can do it apparently. See you all later!

#7981 Muz Bee

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 23:54

I see, SEP is new joker in town. I know what is his problem: his favourite driver Prost together with another good driver Senna have 7titles like Michael. I guess every title that Michael made over 4th was big blow to him personally. I am just surprised he show so late after season finish. Or maybe he is old acquaintance, only now he use new name.

Yep, you're probably right. SEP probably suffers from a similar fan disease as yourself. Your apparent dislike for Nico PROBABLY comes from his beating of your hero. Some people can face facts, others choose to ignore the evidence and make excuses. Fact is, Michael is no longer a driver who can produce miraculous drives as the sands of time have buried him. With a lesser teammate and a better car he might have won a GP this year but so what? With a better car Nico would still have PROBABLY beaten Michael to the win since he is about 0.3 faster in the all important qualifying AND has good race pace and consistency.

I'm not someone who has nakedly bagged Michael in both his first and second careers in F1 (other than for his lack of sportsmanship) as he WAS a particularly good driver whose miracles especially at Spa thrilled me. It always hurt to see such an excellent driver devalue his undoubtedly fine career by things like the deliberate move on JV at Jerez, the parking incident at Monaco and more recently the Barrichello outrage. To excuse those things in the face of many other questionable tactics is to be one-eyed. I guess to be honest I feel Michael is now getting his come-uppance for his misdeeds from the young F1 set who are not to be intimidated and are in many cases very fast. I do believe there is a human face to Michael as Brawn has often said but he hides it so often behind a stony face which denies what we can all see. Somehow 2010 for many of us was, we hoped, to be the year that a more human and humane Michael raced for enjoyment and with integrity. Hungary 2010 proved otherwise and his entire career will always be blighted by his ruthlessness.

Having returned home this week from an event where I witnessed a fatal crash it brings more and more into focus how the safety and sportsmanship of competitors is paramount. Michael and Ayrton both took the sport beyond these principles and put winning at all costs as their guiding mark. But it's Michael who has consistently shown how little he cares for principle and how much for winning. Even scoring 1 WDC point in - for him - a meaningless season, is worth driving a competitor off the road for.

#7982 Sof1

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 00:26

Lets make this as simple as possible:

MSC has won 7 WDCs. That is all that matters! When the day comes where someone does that, no matter what car they are driving or what position they have in their team, only then you can come back and talk about MSC. For now, whatever anyone says is just nonsense. The numbers are there and no one has achieved them so far. PERIOD!

#7983 Frans

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 00:47

It's not winning what counts, for the real sportloving fans, or how many, but HOW.


For Schumacher fans none of that matters, because only HE can walk on water.


Or should I try that in German?;)

#7984 Buttoneer

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 00:54

That is all that matters!

No, it's not. Really, it's just not.

#7985 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 01:00

No, it's not. Really, it's just not.

of course it's not

the thing is anything somebody that is hated achieves => doesn't matter
what anybody else as an expert behind a keyboard can imagine => does matter

7 times wdc = a living legend. nothing can change that

#7986 genespleen

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 01:27

It's not winning what counts, for the real sportloving fans, or how many, but HOW.


For Schumacher fans none of that matters, because only HE can walk on water.


Or should I try that in German?;)


This is *such* B.S.

There may be a few diehard Schu fanatics for whom the guy can do wrong, but for most of us mere fans, we see an extraordinarily talented driver, whose speed and focus dominated the sport for a decade, but who also was flawed by a combination of sometimes over-the-top ruthlessness, and sometimes "red-mist" errors. To say that fans see him as someone who "can walk on water" merely sets up a strawman, and is too-often the debating tactic of the simple-minded.

The romantic notion that prior to Senna and Schumacher, F1 drivers were oh-so-much-more sporting is a bit naive.

#7987 SparkPlug

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 02:48

This is *such* B.S.

There may be a few diehard Schu fanatics for whom the guy can do wrong, but for most of us mere fans, we see an extraordinarily talented driver, whose speed and focus dominated the sport for a decade, but who also was flawed by a combination of sometimes over-the-top ruthlessness, and sometimes "red-mist" errors. To say that fans see him as someone who "can walk on water" merely sets up a strawman, and is too-often the debating tactic of the simple-minded.

The romantic notion that prior to Senna and Schumacher, F1 drivers were oh-so-much-more sporting is a bit naive.

That notion is made up by those who've not watched the sport before the 90s.

BTW, good assessment there. I think you speak for much of the F1 watching public who are not Schumacher fans. I too believe the same about him, an extraordinarily talented driver, who, sometimes, when in critical situations, pushed the lines of sportsmanship due to his uncontrollable desire to win. But thats not what Schumacher is : Its only part of what he is. An ugly part nevertheless, but I remember him for his heroics behind the steering wheel more than his imperfections.

Most people who sit behind the comfort of their computer screens, and spit venom on sportsmen like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton, dont know a thing about the kind of effort these guys put into their careers. There is decades of blood, sweat and tears that goes into guys like these that make it to the top of a professional sport. When push comes to shove, in a title decider, Schumacher wasnt nearly as composed or "gentlemanly" as Hill was or Button is. Does that take away any of his records ? No it doesnt

Some people are better at handling a tight situation in the sport than others. Its clear Schumacher isnt one of them. So what ? How does that "diminish his achievements" in any way whatsoever ?

To be so judgemental about a drivers' behaviour is completely insane.

Edited by SparkPlug, 01 December 2010 - 02:52.


#7988 baddog

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 03:05

What has always grated on me is that those who judge Schumacher so harshly just never apply these criteria to everyone else.. they either cannot or will not see the incidents that should, in fairness, similarly marr the careers of other pominent drivers.

Thnk of Damon Hill, who on causing an accident in a dangerous corner, said 'I was bored of sitting behind the guy'
Or Rubens who caused (in a fit pf pique) another driver to drive half a lap of monaco with a foreign object in his front wing.
Or Webber, who has taken half the field out in insane defence moves at one time or another.
etc etc
They pretty much all have a laundry list of incidents where they behaved in a way that was cavalier about causing accidents.

Just because Mika Hakkinen was (once he had his accident and grew up anyway) a seemingly perfect on track gentleman, does not mean that that is very common let alone typical. it is not and never has been.

People were more cautious in earlier decades because they did not want to die or kill someone and that was a likely outcome of an accident. If things then had been as safe as they were now there is no reason to imagine people would have behaved better. They never did in life in general so why in motor racing? Its all rose tinted glasses.

#7989 Raelene

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 03:07

That notion is made up by those who've not watched the sport before the 90s.

BTW, good assessment there. I think you speak for much of the F1 watching public who are not Schumacher fans. I too believe the same about him, an extraordinarily talented driver, who, sometimes, when in critical situations, pushed the lines of sportsmanship due to his uncontrollable desire to win. But thats not what Schumacher is : Its only part of what he is. An ugly part nevertheless, but I remember him for his heroics behind the steering wheel more than his imperfections.

Most people who sit behind the comfort of their computer screens, and spit venom on sportsmen like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton, dont know a thing about the kind of effort these guys put into their careers. There is decades of blood, sweat and tears that goes into guys like these that make it to the top of a professional sport. When push comes to shove, in a title decider, Schumacher wasnt nearly as composed or "gentlemanly" as Hill was or Button is. Does that take away any of his records ? No it doesnt

Some people are better at handling a tight situation in the sport than others. Its clear Schumacher isnt one of them. So what ? How does that "diminish his achievements" in any way whatsoever ?

To be so judgemental about a drivers' behaviour is completely insane.



Excellent Post :up: :up:

People like Sep are simply here to troll. No one who knows even a little bit about F1 would say that MS is not a good driver. It's ok for him to think he's not the best - but to say he's only an average driver is insane.

#7990 DarthRonzo

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 04:02

That notion is made up by those who've not watched the sport before the 90s.

BTW, good assessment there. I think you speak for much of the F1 watching public who are not Schumacher fans. I too believe the same about him, an extraordinarily talented driver, who, sometimes, when in critical situations, pushed the lines of sportsmanship due to his uncontrollable desire to win. But thats not what Schumacher is : Its only part of what he is. An ugly part nevertheless, but I remember him for his heroics behind the steering wheel more than his imperfections.

Most people who sit behind the comfort of their computer screens, and spit venom on sportsmen like Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton, dont know a thing about the kind of effort these guys put into their careers. There is decades of blood, sweat and tears that goes into guys like these that make it to the top of a professional sport. When push comes to shove, in a title decider, Schumacher wasnt nearly as composed or "gentlemanly" as Hill was or Button is. Does that take away any of his records ? No it doesnt

Some people are better at handling a tight situation in the sport than others. Its clear Schumacher isnt one of them. So what ? How does that "diminish his achievements" in any way whatsoever ?

To be so judgemental about a drivers' behaviour is completely insane.

Well, I don't wanna go into lenghts about this issue, but, IMO, all the racing guys you've mentioned have very debatable psyco behaviour.

The "uncontrollable desire to win" transported to the business world could mean a financial executive to committ a fraud and make up the numbers to keep his/her job or even get promoter at the expense of a more capable professional.
Is it a behaviour to be praised or condemned in your judgement ?

I've read Senna's bios, but couldn't ID why such a strong desire to win and I don't agree with some of his behaviourism either.
Schumacher was the son of a go kart janitor that was despised by the rich competitors. Didn't help being managed by Flav and Weber.
Alonso ask other people to crash so he can raise his chances of winning. Didn't help being managed by Flav.
Lewis does some minor cheats behind the SC, like in Australia and Valencia.

In fact there used to be a highet level of sportmanship, specially at the times of Sir Jack, Emerson and Lauda.
However, from time to time, someone comes to break the code of honor to gain some advantage. Then the crowd copy the behaviour - to defend themselves - lowering the overall standard.
It happened to Alan Jones, Senna, Schumy and Alonso.

Stewart wasn't an hypocrite when he complain about nowhadays drivers behaviour bcs he lived the Code of Honor, that existed partly bcs cars were fragile and death was present to races. So rogue behaviour on track was really threatening their lives.
Emerson was the Driver Steward that imposed the biggest number of penalties to drivers/teams in 2010.
So, yes... there was a higuer level of chivalry in F1.

Edited by DarthRonzo, 01 December 2010 - 04:08.


#7991 Zoe

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 07:29

In fact there used to be a highet level of sportmanship, specially at the times of Sir Jack, Emerson and Lauda.


Or, as Lauda (I at least think it was him) once put it: There were simply less cameras.

Zoe


#7992 ivand911

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 08:44

In F1 at the moment there is: one 7 time WDC,one 2 time WDC and 3 one timers. Who is superior to the others? It is tough one? Even Michael is last one in the race ,he is still Superior. In every group picture he is still Number 1. When he is at F1 race he is still Numero Uno. Every time ,all the time, forever. :rotfl:
About Nico I always say he is not worst than top drivers. If I said something was against his fans, not him. Usually Michael haters try to make Nico bad/average driver. Not me. But, you will never see me in Nico thread. I don't care.

#7993 Yorkie

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 11:01

In F1 at the moment there is: one 7 time WDC,one 2 time WDC and 3 one timers. Who is superior to the others? It is tough one? Even Michael is last one in the race ,he is still Superior. In every group picture he is still Number 1. When he is at F1 race he is still Numero Uno. Every time ,all the time, forever. :rotfl:
About Nico I always say he is not worst than top drivers. If I said something was against his fans, not him. Usually Michael haters try to make Nico bad/average driver. Not me. But, you will never see me in Nico thread. I don't care.

He use to be numero uno

#7994 cheapracer

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 12:37

Who cares about the past? What's relevant is that MS is crap *now*.


John Rambo cared about the past actually, you discredit his name..




#7995 cheapracer

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 12:43

Or, as Lauda once put it: There were simply less cameras.

Zoe


Indeed Lauda and well said.

Even when theres plenty of cameras around it's still impossible to track most of whats really happening and even then you are reliant on the camera angle offered which often distorts who's really at fault. I think 'blimp cam' from way overhead would be the only reliable angle but thats rare.


#7996 Johnrambo

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 12:53

John Rambo cared about the past actually, you discredit his name..


No not really. He got over the past in the first film.

#7997 cheapracer

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 12:54

ROC is not F1


Indeed it is not and I fully agree but how come this is referenced as nothing to do with the skills of F1 yet his average Sportscar career is often referenced?

Could it shockingly be that he is a winner at ROC but, as mentioned, just average in a Sortscar?

Nah, whats got into me, sorry for the insinuation ....... :lol:

He use to be numero uno


He did indeed;

1994
1995
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004

Hmm let me count that - Wow, I get 7 times WDC, amazing!!

Edited by cheapracer, 01 December 2010 - 12:54.


#7998 Scotracer

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 13:10

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#7999 aditya-now

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 14:23

Cheapracer & SeanValen ,

don't you know that Schumacher is the luckiest,most overated F1 driver in the history of the sport ?

Becuase apparently from 1994 to 2006 F1 had offered him very WEAK or no-competetion at all...

When he was winning his strings of championships for Ferrari , some journos and arm-chair experts were saying Schumacher never faced real competition like in the Prost-Senna days ... (that was their excuse)

Now since 2007, their saying that competition is at it's highest ( coincidance when he retired and Hamilton's arrival :rotfl: )

Wow , Schumacher really lucked out did'nt he ? His competition was better and alot tougher PRE-1994 and it's now alot stronger POST-2006 ....


You definitely have a point there, 7timesbetter :D
2010 supports your views - Schumacher comes back in a highly competitive field and look how average he is. Even a Rosberg who hasn´t won a race yet drives circles around Mighty Michael.

I wouldn´t go as far as calling him the most overrated F1 driver in history, though. You are being a bit extreme there....


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#8000 dde

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 14:45

You definitely have a point there, 7timesbetter :D
2010 supports your views - Schumacher comes back in a highly competitive field and look how average he is. Even a Rosberg who hasn´t won a race yet drives circles around Mighty Michael.

I wouldn´t go as far as calling him the most overrated F1 driver in history, though. You are being a bit extreme there....



Indeed. Given what Prost has showed at the ROC event, one can say that the drivers of the 80's are the most overrated of all times.