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#8251 aditya-now

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 11:16

......

......

......

2011:
Lets hope no one can save us from an 8th WDC title: :clap:


That´s what is called revisionism.

As for 2011: why should anyone save us from Michael winning his 8th WDC? Strange wording, some Freudian slip maybe? Are you afraid of it?

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#8252 SlateGray

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 16:47

If you think that you win the argument based on "it's all right to crash as he was in front" then there is no point in discussing it any further.


Cheapracer's argument is very lame to say the least. But when posters try to defend the indefensible facts become their enemy so the resulting argument(s) are little more then attempts to distract or confuse or shoot the messenger. Note to Schumacher fans: Just because other drivers have been unsporting jerks in the past does not make it OK for Schumacher to be an unsporting jerk.
I have seen nothing posted so far that refutes any of the nineteen dirty deeds listed. They all currently stand 100% un dented by the limp hyperbole and pathetic excuse making of Schumacher's apologists.


#8253 nomeg1

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 17:53

Read today : 70% of the Germans think that MSC will not be for the eigth time WDC in 2011...The poll was made by SID, a German Press Agency.

Here is the article in French : MSC No 8th title in 2011

#8254 arknor

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 18:21

Read today : 70% of the Germans think that MSC will not be for the eigth time WDC in 2011...The poll was made by SID, a German Press Agency.

Here is the article in French : MSC No 8th title in 2011

depends what team your with odds are redbull ferrari and mclaren will all be much faster than mercedes again

i wouldnt see alonso or hamilton winning a title next year if they were mercedes drivers either

Edited by arknor, 29 December 2010 - 18:22.


#8255 nomeg1

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 18:49

depends what team your with odds are redbull ferrari and mclaren will all be much faster than mercedes again

i wouldnt see alonso or hamilton winning a title next year if they were mercedes drivers either

Don't know, Nobert Haug seems to be saying that they will be the surprise...

#8256 f1rocks

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 18:51

lol


Britain 1994:
Undue punishment, other divers overtake on the warm-up lap too without any penalty. The only reason was only his huge advantage ahead of the british Hill.

Australia 1994:
Hill was behind him, the british blew it. Schumi deserves the title, Damon has the best car on the grid, but he can win only if Schumi was banned or the german has problems.

1994 season:
Masterdrive for Schumi, a well deserve title. He should won the WDC in Monza, but some need a distraction from the scandals, and the F1 need fight to the last race.

Belgium 1995:
Masterdrive from Schumi. Classic. He could win by 1 minute lead from 16th place.


Europe 1997:
Villeneuve would not be there because of his race bann penalty. It was a disgusting decesion to take away his 2 ponts from Suzuka instead of his well deserve race bann. Schumi could win that race if he didn't get wrong tyre set. The accident was only a slight touch. One race earlyer Villeneuve almost push him out of the track while the canadian come back from his pit stop.


Britain 1998:
Brilliant decission after an undue penalty. Neither Schumi or Wurz remember the laping before the line, and I don't find any video or photograph which prove that.

Canada 1998:
Hard racing, he gets the penalty. But don"t forget, there was an SC situation, so HHF should have been stay behind Schumi after the Ferrari come ahead of him.

Austria 2000:
A start accident. Schumi try to go to the pit, like every other driver do..

EUROPEAN GRAND PRIX 2001:
Hard racing.

Austria 2001:
That was not the first TO in the history (97 Jerez, 98 Melbourne means Hakkinek is an unfair driver? Or Remember Hamilton from 2008)

Germany 2001:
lol

Austria 2002:
go to Austria 2001 comment

USA 2002:
The bills payed by the sponsors, not the fans.

Europe 2003:
It wasompletely regularin 2003. Patrese do the same in the Hungaroring in 91 or 92.

BRITISH GRAND PRIX 2003:
Alonso, Webber, Montoya, Senna or Berger to the same in many times. It's hard racing, not a tea party.

Australia 2005:
Race accident.

Monaco 2006:
Noo proof again, just an opinion from a spanish stewart.

Hungary 2010:
Hard Racing against cry-baby Barichella...

2011:
Lets hope no one can save us from an 8th WDC title: :clap:

:up: :up:

Excellent answer Tarzan. If i may also add a few things:

Aus 2002: Schumacher got held up by the Safety Car. Nobody seems to remember that. He would have jumped Cry Baby Barrichello during the pits stops otherwise

Jer 97: MS was easily faster than JV until Ferrari screwed up his tyres. In normal race circumstances he had the WDC wrapped up. JV drove quite bad and almost crashed into MS in earlier races.

1994 season: Hill's mistake. He should have waited. Secondly he was no match for MS the entire season in a much superior car. Was he not lapped my Senna and MS at BRazil ?

Most of the other incidents, Tarzan has answered well.

#8257 carbonfibre

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 21:58

Come on guys just let it be.

There is no point in convincing or trying to change minds of people who will never change. It's always the same old story over and over again. Im gonna enjoy next year as another year when i can see a great driver at work. If the mercedes, the team and michael can manage to gel more then i wouldn't be surprised if the old guy can raise a few eyebrows.

#8258 arknor

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 22:04

Don't know, Nobert Haug seems to be saying that they will be the surprise...

not if they have the same manpower and funds they did this year

#8259 Zippel

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 22:45

Doesn't tie in with Schumachers excuse that he was trying to defend the corner. He never mentioned the steering not working, so revisionist excuses won't work.


I'm quite sure Schumacher mentions the steering wasn't working properly in the Adelaide post race interviews (where he lined up with the 3 podium finishes), though its been a while so can't remember exactly how he worded it.

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#8260 Mila

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 22:54

Remember how Michael started crying in the press conference when he had won 41 races like Ayrton.


I'm sorry, but he was headed to meltdown, regardless. he could have been asked about The Spice Girls and the tears would have still flowed.

#8261 aditya-now

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 23:01

I'm sorry, but he was headed to meltdown, regardless. he could have been asked about The Spice Girls and the tears would have still flowed.


That meltdown happened exactly because he equalled Ayrton. And although they did not see eye to eye with each other when Senna was alive, Schumacher secretly admired him and he admitted later it meant a lot to him to equal 41 wins.


#8262 SlateGray

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 23:45

Im gonna enjoy next year as another year when i can see a great driver at work. If the mercedes, the team and michael can manage to gel more then i wouldn't be surprised if the old guy can raise a few eyebrows.


I dare say he will do better than that, if the Mercedes is a top or very near top car Schumacher will win races with it. I see next year as much like this year with four five or even six drivers in the running for the WDC at two thirds distance in the season, if the car is any good Nico and Michael will be in the fight big time. 2011 is looking to be even better then 2010. At this point it all comes down to who makes the best car. Schumacher's very modest success of 2010 could become the biggest success of his chequered career in 2011.
no pun intended..chequered career..chequered flag...moan

#8263 Racer3

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 00:19

Michael Schumacher and Mika Häkkinen in a ad for Mercedes:


Funny :up: -- but even after listening several times to her words, I don't understand the lady.
What does she say?



#8264 aditya-now

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 00:31

What does she say?


"I knew it - senior citizen!"


#8265 f1rocks

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 00:32

Come on guys just let it be.

There is no point in convincing or trying to change minds of people who will never change. It's always the same old story over and over again. Im gonna enjoy next year as another year when i can see a great driver at work. If the mercedes, the team and michael can manage to gel more then i wouldn't be surprised if the old guy can raise a few eyebrows.

Agreed. Most of these bashers are just jealous that MS enjoyed so much success. MS performed at the top for almost 15 yrs. Let's see if Alonso or Kubica can even come close to him.

This year has been fun to follow MS. He has nothin to prove to anyone. If he does well next year then great. If not then I will still aplaud him to try. We will see what Alonso or Hamilton can do at 42 yrs of age.

#8266 Racer3

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 00:53

"I knew it - senior citizen!"

Thanks, mate! That was my first guess after listening to it, but I didn't know its (PC) connotation until looking it up following your answer :blush: (senior citizen).


#8267 FigJam

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:18

Jer 97: MS was easily faster than JV until Ferrari screwed up his tyres. In normal race circumstances he had the WDC wrapped up. JV drove quite bad and almost crashed into MS in earlier races.


Really? :lol:

#8268 f1rocks

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:30

Really? :lol:


Yes. Do you have anything else to write about except for just smiley crap ? Why was MS ahead of JV after the second pit stop at Jerez ?. If JV was quicker then why did he not overtake MS until he had a problem with the tyres.. Or maybe jump MS at the pits...

#8269 cheapracer

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 04:57

Cheapracer's argument is very lame to say the least.



Calling fact lame is your prerogative.

In 1994 at Adeliade Michael Schumacher had every right to take the line he did, he was in front - that is a simple and indisputable fact and you guys can argue all you want and be as eloquent as you like (not that any of you score marks there) but it doesn't change facts.

If you don't like it then tough, write to the FIA.

/1994 subject for me.

#8270 cheapracer

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 06:12

Belgium 1995:
Blocking moves lead to the introduction of the ‘one move’ agreement where drivers can only move once to prevent being overtaken
Schumacher's performance did not impress Hill after his defensive moves forced Hill to either back off or go off the track.
Schumacher claimed that he had only blocked Hill at the low-speed corners, but video evidence suggested that Schumacher had blocked Hill on some of the high speed corners, such as the Radillion and Blanchimont.
Hill later commented that "We had some pretty hairy moments and I am not satisfied with being driven into; I don't think that was acceptable.
That is all well and good but if it was meant on purpose I would be very upset, F1 cars are not go-karts.
I think there are some things which are acceptable and some things which are not."

Schumacher defended himself by agreeing that touching wheels in high-speed corners is "not acceptable" but added that at the speed he and Hill were doing, he thought it was acceptable.
Schumacher was given a one-race suspended ban for driving aggressively in order to stop Hill from passing.


What a joke, this is one of my greatest dissapointments in a driver ever. I have a lot of time for Hill, I think the way he came into F1 was hard on him and he performed like a champion under those circumstances especially in 1994 and lets not forget he had only been in F1 for 3 years with little car race experience behind him and here he was racing competitively against a seasoned veteran.

The Spa dice between the 2 was brilliant and why it doesn't get mentioned much is beyond me, 3/4's wet track, 1/4 dry with MS on slicks and Hill on wets going at it for a couple of laps is one of the highlights of F1 until the after the race where an absolutely beaten and bitter Hill whined like a little girl even to Murray Walker's disbelief. I can not believe the incredibly brave and extremely talented driver who I just watched in such an epic battle could be the same whiny little girl afterwards.

Schumacher did nothing wrong, he almost always stayed on the racing line and was even within the "one move" rule that wasn't even in force then - oh and did I mention HE WAS IN FRONT? What a sham, literally the race that ruined F1 racing coming into the modern era.

Speaking of 1995, where's the mention of Hill's impectuous passing attempts again from BEHIND (why was Hill always behind in the best car on the grid?) resulting in crashes into Schumacher at Silverstone and Monza (causing retirement both times) besides doing the same to Alesi at Germany?

Oh and if you ever in your life watch Spa 1995, which I doubt you have, keep an eye on Martin Brundle's 'chop of all chops' defense on Hill for 2nd late in the race - and Brundle dares mention MS in a similar breathe :lol:

Oh Damon!
Posted Image

Oh Damon!!
Posted Image

Oh Damon!!!
Posted Image

Oh Damon!!!!
Posted Image




#8271 bourbon

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 06:21

I disliked Ferrari's cheating ways and so forth - and I still do. But that didn't hide Schumi's talent. The dude is legend and I think after this adjustment period he'll be right in the mix again. It is normal in sports to write athletes off when they do poorly or go through a bad spell - happens to everyone (the reverse is true too). So I've never put any credit in that at all, no matter who is doing the talking or who they are talking about.



#8272 Spa95

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 07:21

Oh Damon!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon1.jpg

Oh Damon!!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon2.jpg

Oh Damon!!!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon3.jpg

Oh Damon!!!!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon4.jpg

May I add to that list? :)

0:39

Edited by Spa95, 30 December 2010 - 07:22.


#8273 FigJam

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 07:27

Yes. Do you have anything else to write about except for just smiley crap ?


Thats all it deserved. No point fighting bias.


#8274 Tarzaan

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:03

Really? :lol:



Really. His last set was wrong. It's not an opinion, it is a fact. He loss 2-3 sec per lap with that. That year the Williams was the main partner od the Goodyear, and they also remained till the second race of 98.

Apart from this, the situation remains clear, Villeneuve should not start on Jerez because of his penalty.

#8275 Tarzaan

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:05

What a joke, this is one of my greatest dissapointments in a driver ever. I have a lot of time for Hill, I think the way he came into F1 was hard on him and he performed like a champion under those circumstances especially in 1994 and lets not forget he had only been in F1 for 3 years with little car race experience behind him and here he was racing competitively against a seasoned veteran.

The Spa dice between the 2 was brilliant and why it doesn't get mentioned much is beyond me, 3/4's wet track, 1/4 dry with MS on slicks and Hill on wets going at it for a couple of laps is one of the highlights of F1 until the after the race where an absolutely beaten and bitter Hill whined like a little girl even to Murray Walker's disbelief. I can not believe the incredibly brave and extremely talented driver who I just watched in such an epic battle could be the same whiny little girl afterwards.

Schumacher did nothing wrong, he almost always stayed on the racing line and was even within the "one move" rule that wasn't even in force then - oh and did I mention HE WAS IN FRONT? What a sham, literally the race that ruined F1 racing coming into the modern era.

Speaking of 1995, where's the mention of Hill's impectuous passing attempts again from BEHIND (why was Hill always behind in the best car on the grid?) resulting in crashes into Schumacher at Silverstone and Monza (causing retirement both times) besides doing the same to Alesi at Germany?

Oh and if you ever in your life watch Spa 1995, which I doubt you have, keep an eye on Martin Brundle's 'chop of all chops' defense on Hill for 2nd late in the race - and Brundle dares mention MS in a similar breathe :lol:

Oh Damon!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon1.jpg

Oh Damon!!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon2.jpg

Oh Damon!!!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon3.jpg

Oh Damon!!!!
http://i620.photobuc...lexo/damon4.jpg


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
:up:

Edited by Tarzaan, 30 December 2010 - 09:06.


#8276 Tarzaan

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:10

That´s what is called revisionism.

As for 2011: why should anyone save us from Michael winning his 8th WDC? Strange wording, some Freudian slip maybe? Are you afraid of it?



It is just a literal translation of a hungarian phrase.

#8277 Hacklerf

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:24

Well said cheapracer

#8278 Spa95

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:59

Ross Brawn Interview with AMuS (Michael Schmidt): http://www.auto-moto...hl-3262126.html

Google Translation: http://translate.goo...=...l=&ie=UTF-8

Their Simulator won't be fully finished before 2012. Not that it's much use to MS if it's true that he gets sick in the simulator...

Edited by Spa95, 30 December 2010 - 10:23.


#8279 Tarzaan

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 11:07

I read an interesting article in a hungarian site few minutes ago:

http://www.motorspor...zta-c38340.html

http://translate.goo...zta-c38340.html



Norbert Haug said that in 2005 Istanbul the relationship between Schumi & the Ferrari( I think it means Montezemolo) broken down, and Schumi discuss with Haug, they make a deal and he almost drive the 2006 season in the McLaren Mercedes, but the Ferrari vetoed that...



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#8280 Szoelloe

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 12:11

I read an interesting article in a hungarian site few minutes ago:

http://www.motorspor...zta-c38340.html

http://translate.goo...zta-c38340.html



Norbert Haug said that in 2005 Istanbul the relationship between Schumi & the Ferrari( I think it means Montezemolo) broken down, and Schumi discuss with Haug, they make a deal and he almost drive the 2006 season in the McLaren Mercedes, but the Ferrari vetoed that...


That an old story.

#8281 EdwardCullen

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 12:28

May I add to that list? :)

0:39

Add this to it aswell, Hill holding up Schumy on purpose while being lapped and lets through JV immediately after that :rolleyes:
Its a cheap work from Hill, http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

#8282 baggio10

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 14:11

I read an interesting article in a hungarian site few minutes ago:

http://www.motorspor...zta-c38340.html

http://translate.goo...zta-c38340.html



Norbert Haug said that in 2005 Istanbul the relationship between Schumi & the Ferrari( I think it means Montezemolo) broken down, and Schumi discuss with Haug, they make a deal and he almost drive the 2006 season in the McLaren Mercedes, but the Ferrari vetoed that...


Never heard of this before. Istanbul 2005 would be roughly the same time Ferrari signed a precontract with Kimi.

#8283 Spa95

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 14:23

That's interesting. How verifiable/certified is this?

Anthony Davidson said it during free practice at the British (or was it the German?) GP weekend on BBCs Red Button coverage. He is, incidentally, Mercedes GPs simulator test driver - so he would know.

#8284 rm111

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 15:54

I remember at the start of the season Button saying the Macca simulator made him feel sick, it probably happens to a few drivers more than you would think.

#8285 metz

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 19:24

Ross Brawn Interview with AMuS (Michael Schmidt): http://www.auto-moto...hl-3262126.html

Google Translation: http://translate.goo...=...l=&ie=UTF-8

Their Simulator won't be fully finished before 2012. Not that it's much use to MS if it's true that he gets sick in the simulator...

Interesting other bits;.
Michaels problems mostly down to getting to grips with the tyres. And subsequent qualifying.
No problem with racecraft or reaction times.
Does not expect to repeat the 2009 miracle ever again.

#8286 r4mses

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 19:37

I read an interesting article in a hungarian site few minutes ago:

http://www.motorspor...zta-c38340.html

http://translate.goo...zta-c38340.html



Norbert Haug said that in 2005 Istanbul the relationship between Schumi & the Ferrari( I think it means Montezemolo) broken down, and Schumi discuss with Haug, they make a deal and he almost drive the 2006 season in the McLaren Mercedes, but the Ferrari vetoed that...


Totally new to me Oo what happend in Turkey 2005? I can't remember anything special right now...

#8287 Myrvold

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 20:42

I also love how people fail to bring up the incidents where Hill punted off Schumacher in 1995.


Well, he did that, why discuss that?


lol


Britain 1994:
Undue punishment, other divers overtake on the warm-up lap too without any penalty. The only reason was only his huge advantage ahead of the british Hill.

Australia 1994:
Hill was behind him, the british blew it. Schumi deserves the title, Damon has the best car on the grid, but he can win only if Schumi was banned or the german has problems.

1994 season:
Masterdrive for Schumi, a well deserve title. He should won the WDC in Monza, but some need a distraction from the scandals, and the F1 need fight to the last race.

Belgium 1995:
Masterdrive from Schumi. Classic. He could win by 1 minute lead from 16th place.


Europe 1997:
Villeneuve would not be there because of his race bann penalty. It was a disgusting decesion to take away his 2 ponts from Suzuka instead of his well deserve race bann. Schumi could win that race if he didn't get wrong tyre set. The accident was only a slight touch. One race earlyer Villeneuve almost push him out of the track while the canadian come back from his pit stop.


Britain 1998:
Brilliant decission after an undue penalty. Neither Schumi or Wurz remember the laping before the line, and I don't find any video or photograph which prove that.

Canada 1998:
Hard racing, he gets the penalty. But don"t forget, there was an SC situation, so HHF should have been stay behind Schumi after the Ferrari come ahead of him.

Austria 2000:
A start accident. Schumi try to go to the pit, like every other driver do..

EUROPEAN GRAND PRIX 2001:
Hard racing.

Austria 2001:
That was not the first TO in the history (97 Jerez, 98 Melbourne means Hakkinek is an unfair driver? Or Remember Hamilton from 2008)

Germany 2001:
lol

Austria 2002:
go to Austria 2001 comment

USA 2002:
The bills payed by the sponsors, not the fans.

Europe 2003:
It wasompletely regularin 2003. Patrese do the same in the Hungaroring in 91 or 92.

BRITISH GRAND PRIX 2003:
Alonso, Webber, Montoya, Senna or Berger to the same in many times. It's hard racing, not a tea party.

Australia 2005:
Race accident.

Monaco 2006:
Noo proof again, just an opinion from a spanish stewart.

Hungary 2010:
Hard Racing against cry-baby Barichella...

2011:
Lets hope no one can save us from an 8th WDC title: :clap:


British GP 94: That might be true, that does not give him the rights to not serve the penalty he has been given. (He did, but too late, and that equals not serving).

Australia GP 94: Hard thing to give an answer on. The rules say that you can defend your position if you are in front, but when a driver have the front wheel, higher than the rear wheel of the other car, they are "side by side" and they have to give eachother enough room to drive on the track. However, this does not apply in a kamikaze-move, or a very late move. Hard to say, I mean Schumacher could've given more room, and then it would've been ok. (Just like Hamilton could've given Webber this year, and why Alonso shouldn't been penalized in this years British GP).

Belgium GP 95: Yes, it was a fantastic drive, however, that does not justice for dangerous driving, you cannot force other drivers off the track.

Europe GP 97: He was. He was stripped for the Japan results, for one reason. He was banned from that race, but he was able to participate while they waited on the appeal. The appeal failed, and the banned, that was imposed for the Japan GP did count. You cannot transfer an already applied penalty. And i honestly cannot understand why you defend, and try to excuse something he have admitted to be doing himself. It doesn't matter why Villeneuve and Schumacher came close, the thing is, they did, and Schumacher did try do make Villeneuve retire.

British GP 98: Well, the penalty was right, if it happended. Anyway, is wasn't delivered quick enough, and was removed. So, it is no proof that he did anything wrong either, no big deal, fair win, and a great use of a loophole (serving it on the last lap).

Canada GP 98: Hard racing does not include pushing others of the track. Heinz-Harald Frentzen had two options, crashing into MS or not. MS-fans should be glad he chose not to. But Schumacher did not give enough room. Fair penalty. And again, no need to excuse with things that have happended earlier in the race, making it to happen. If Schumacher had leaded with 3 laps, then spun, loosing 3 laps, it doesn't justify anything.

Austria GP 00: Trying to get to the pit? Wrong way, or, what? Not a very nice thing to do, but very smart, maybe a bit in the grey area of the rules, still a smart thing - had it worked. I remember us being told the same thing when I was racing (Do not try to get the vehicle off the track, just yourself if you want a greater chance of a red flag).

Europe GP 01: What was the big deal here? Start-crossing? Nah, enough room. The pit entry, where he crossed the line? Well the rules say that he cannot cross the line in to the pit with the whole car, but we don't know what the agreed to on the drivers meeting. The pit exit? As far as I see, he didn't cross the line with any part of the car. So, agree with you. (I might not remember everything)

Austria GP 01: Oh, three wrongs make them right? Legal, but not fair. Neither was the McLaren moves,- I honestly don't think others than McLaren/Hakkinen fans does think that. The same way that I think that the ones who support the "Austrias" is Ferrari or Schumacher fans.

Germany GP 01: O.o I cannot remember anything, the red-flag situation? Oh well, need to hate Schumacher pretty much I guess...

Austria GP 02: See at 01.

USA GP 02: O.o what to you mean? This was, if possible, more an insult to racing fans, than Austria.

Europe GP 03: The rule is, that you are not allowed to get any outside help, unless you are in a dangerous situation. I wouldn't belive you should be allowed to continue the race just because you went off in a dangerous place. Anyway, he was not penalized, and then, it seems like they though he was in a dangerous place, then, ok with me. However, he had enough place on the inside to not touch Montoya, but that, was a race incident.

British GP 03: What is that all about, I only remeber the kilt-guy on the track

Australia GP 05: Remember the situation, but not clearly, will not comment.

Monaco GP 06: As far as I remember, they looked at the telemetry at the point Schumacher said he lost control, and the telemetry said he was going in 16 km/h. However, that is the strangest "loss of control" I have ever seen. I think the penalty is fair.

Hungary GP 10: The rules say, that you need to leave enough place on the track when another driver is on your side. The track is between the white lines, not the wall. If you look again, Schumacher is pushing Barrichello, way past the white line. That is a violation of the rules.

:up: :up:

Excellent answer Tarzan. If i may also add a few things:

Aus 2002: Schumacher got held up by the Safety Car. Nobody seems to remember that. He would have jumped Cry Baby Barrichello during the pits stops otherwise

Jer 97: MS was easily faster than JV until Ferrari screwed up his tyres. In normal race circumstances he had the WDC wrapped up. JV drove quite bad and almost crashed into MS in earlier races.

1994 season: Hill's mistake. He should have waited. Secondly he was no match for MS the entire season in a much superior car. Was he not lapped my Senna and MS at BRazil ?

Most of the other incidents, Tarzan has answered well.


Like I have said, Austria 02: It does not matter, why he ended up behind, he was behind, even though it was legal, the way to do it, and the reason why, felt, and feels wrong, when I'm watching it because I am a racing-fan. Jerez, same thing, bad tyres doesn't mean he is allowed to crash into others. Almost crashed, is not a crash, and, if one driver crashes into you, you are still not allowed to crash into him (unless you are racing in NASCAR of course). Australia 94, yes, he should've waited, and more on that, watch higher in my answer. But still, even though Schumacher was a lot faster than Hill that season, it still don't make it legal. Sebastian Vettel wasn't allowed to crash out people just becuase he was the quickest this year, but things made it hard for him to win the championship.

#8288 DarthRonzo

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 20:55

Totally new to me Oo what happend in Turkey 2005? I can't remember anything special right now...

Michael started P19 and withdrew.

Maybe Schumy complained too much to Montezemolo. :confused:

#8289 SlateGray

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 21:47

What a joke


Indeed.

So you are sticking to the theory that if a racer is in front of another it is ok to crash them out of the race if they try to pass, is that what you are saying, being in front is justification for any type of dangerous driving? I have to disagree.
I commend you on attempting to refute two of the nineteen dirty deeds listed even if your attempt was a complete failure. Looking forward to some new and bizarre justifications for the other sixteen Schumacher sportsmanship failures listed, remember this is only a partial list, when you get done attempting to refute these I will put up the next twenty.


#8290 frp

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 22:14

Calling fact lame is your prerogative.

In 1994 at Adeliade Michael Schumacher had every right to take the line he did, he was in front - that is a simple and indisputable fact...

He was in front; that is a fact. But there are other facts, and if you take those into account, then it is clear that his actions were indefensible.

It is a fact that Michael crashed into the wall.
It is a fact that the right rear suspension was damaged by the impact.
It is a fact that Michael's car would not be able to complete the race.
It is a fact that Michael would lose the Championship if his car failed to finish and Hill's finished in the top five.
It is a fact that Michael drove his crippled car sharply across to the left hand side of the track, rather than defending the inside.
It is a fact that Michael waited for Hill to come alongside and then turned into him, so that his car would also be put out of the race.

It is not necessarily a fact that any competitor who seeks only to destroy his competitor's chances, when his own race is over, is a bad sportsman, because that is subjective. It's just the civilised view.

#8291 carbonfibre

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 22:25

Michael started P19 and withdrew.

Maybe Schumy complained too much to Montezemolo. :confused:

Didn't michael make contact with Webber and retired after that.

And i never heard the story as well. Too bad for Luca he made a bad mistake if that incident caused Michael to retire.

#8292 Frans

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 23:39

And after that race, he started his sabotage plan against Ferrari.



#8293 ivand911

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 08:58

Something is wrong here? If his relations with Ferrari was so bad why he was their advisor and he was ready to replace Massa? So I don't believe in this rumours.

#8294 Tarzaan

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 09:20

Well, he did that, why discuss that?


British GP 94: That might be true, that does not give him the rights to not serve the penalty he has been given. (He did, but too late, and that equals not serving).

Australia GP 94: Hard thing to give an answer on. The rules say that you can defend your position if you are in front, but when a driver have the front wheel, higher than the rear wheel of the other car, they are "side by side" and they have to give eachother enough room to drive on the track. However, this does not apply in a kamikaze-move, or a very late move. Hard to say, I mean Schumacher could've given more room, and then it would've been ok. (Just like Hamilton could've given Webber this year, and why Alonso shouldn't been penalized in this years British GP).

Belgium GP 95: Yes, it was a fantastic drive, however, that does not justice for dangerous driving, you cannot force other drivers off the track.

Europe GP 97: He was. He was stripped for the Japan results, for one reason. He was banned from that race, but he was able to participate while they waited on the appeal. The appeal failed, and the banned, that was imposed for the Japan GP did count. You cannot transfer an already applied penalty. And i honestly cannot understand why you defend, and try to excuse something he have admitted to be doing himself. It doesn't matter why Villeneuve and Schumacher came close, the thing is, they did, and Schumacher did try do make Villeneuve retire.

British GP 98: Well, the penalty was right, if it happended. Anyway, is wasn't delivered quick enough, and was removed. So, it is no proof that he did anything wrong either, no big deal, fair win, and a great use of a loophole (serving it on the last lap).

Canada GP 98: Hard racing does not include pushing others of the track. Heinz-Harald Frentzen had two options, crashing into MS or not. MS-fans should be glad he chose not to. But Schumacher did not give enough room. Fair penalty. And again, no need to excuse with things that have happended earlier in the race, making it to happen. If Schumacher had leaded with 3 laps, then spun, loosing 3 laps, it doesn't justify anything.

Austria GP 00: Trying to get to the pit? Wrong way, or, what? Not a very nice thing to do, but very smart, maybe a bit in the grey area of the rules, still a smart thing - had it worked. I remember us being told the same thing when I was racing (Do not try to get the vehicle off the track, just yourself if you want a greater chance of a red flag).

Europe GP 01: What was the big deal here? Start-crossing? Nah, enough room. The pit entry, where he crossed the line? Well the rules say that he cannot cross the line in to the pit with the whole car, but we don't know what the agreed to on the drivers meeting. The pit exit? As far as I see, he didn't cross the line with any part of the car. So, agree with you. (I might not remember everything)

Austria GP 01: Oh, three wrongs make them right? Legal, but not fair. Neither was the McLaren moves,- I honestly don't think others than McLaren/Hakkinen fans does think that. The same way that I think that the ones who support the "Austrias" is Ferrari or Schumacher fans.

Germany GP 01: O.o I cannot remember anything, the red-flag situation? Oh well, need to hate Schumacher pretty much I guess...

Austria GP 02: See at 01.

USA GP 02: O.o what to you mean? This was, if possible, more an insult to racing fans, than Austria.

Europe GP 03: The rule is, that you are not allowed to get any outside help, unless you are in a dangerous situation. I wouldn't belive you should be allowed to continue the race just because you went off in a dangerous place. Anyway, he was not penalized, and then, it seems like they though he was in a dangerous place, then, ok with me. However, he had enough place on the inside to not touch Montoya, but that, was a race incident.

British GP 03: What is that all about, I only remeber the kilt-guy on the track

Australia GP 05: Remember the situation, but not clearly, will not comment.

Monaco GP 06: As far as I remember, they looked at the telemetry at the point Schumacher said he lost control, and the telemetry said he was going in 16 km/h. However, that is the strangest "loss of control" I have ever seen. I think the penalty is fair.

Hungary GP 10: The rules say, that you need to leave enough place on the track when another driver is on your side. The track is between the white lines, not the wall. If you look again, Schumacher is pushing Barrichello, way past the white line. That is a violation of the rules.



Like I have said, Austria 02: It does not matter, why he ended up behind, he was behind, even though it was legal, the way to do it, and the reason why, felt, and feels wrong, when I'm watching it because I am a racing-fan. Jerez, same thing, bad tyres doesn't mean he is allowed to crash into others. Almost crashed, is not a crash, and, if one driver crashes into you, you are still not allowed to crash into him (unless you are racing in NASCAR of course). Australia 94, yes, he should've waited, and more on that, watch higher in my answer. But still, even though Schumacher was a lot faster than Hill that season, it still don't make it legal. Sebastian Vettel wasn't allowed to crash out people just becuase he was the quickest this year, but things made it hard for him to win the championship.



British GP 94: the penalty was given too late, and it was not the correct type. If he overtoke on the warm-up lap, he should start the race from the last place. That was the penalty for this, not a stop&go. And don't forget, the stewards change the black flag penalty to stop & go. The 3 race bann was only because his huge lead and the Briadtore-Mosley fight.

Australia 94: In that time there was no rule. But Shumi was on the ideal line/racing line, and when Schumi start to take to corner, Damons front wheel was behind the Benettons rear wheel, and Damons speed was too fast to that corner, and he push out the Benetton, which flew about 10-15 meters because the hard hit.

Belgium95: Damon forces MS out of the track one time, but like 94 Australia, that time was no rule for this.

Britain98: the penalty was given after the 25min limit, and it was not offical, only a paper with hand writing. Under the rules they had not been taken into account, but MS come into the pit within the rigt period.

Canada98: Pwnalty was given. Race win in the pocket.)

Austria00: I think it was a natural attempt. Try to get back to the pit. Nothing unusual. Lot of drivers go back to the pit with broken engien or sg.

USA02: Schumi want a photo finish in "Le Mans style", he didn't think Bari will "overtokk" him.

Europe03: his engine didn't stalled, so it was legal.

Monaco 06: when he lost controll and miss the corner he was much more faster than 16km/h. The telemetry is not a Bible. After Spa 98 stewards said DC doesn't responsible for the accident based on the telemetry. 7 years later DC said on an interview, that he make a mistake there.

Hungary10: Bari was behind Schumi before he cross the white line.



#8295 Tarzaan

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 09:21

Something is wrong here? If his relations with Ferrari was so bad why he was their advisor and he was ready to replace Massa? So I don't believe in this rumours.



His relationship is bad with Montezemolo, but not bud with other Ferrari members from that time.

#8296 biljon

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 10:30

His relationship is bad with Montezemolo, but not bud with other Ferrari members from that time.


How do you know this?

Edited by biljon, 31 December 2010 - 10:31.


#8297 Tarzaan

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:30

He was in front; that is a fact. But there are other facts, and if you take those into account, then it is clear that his actions were indefensible.

It is a fact that Michael crashed into the wall.
It is a fact that the right rear suspension was damaged by the impact.
It is a fact that Michael's car would not be able to complete the race.
It is a fact that Michael would lose the Championship if his car failed to finish and Hill's finished in the top five.
It is a fact that Michael drove his crippled car sharply across to the left hand side of the track, rather than defending the inside.
It is a fact that Michael waited for Hill to come alongside and then turned into him, so that his car would also be put out of the race.

It is not necessarily a fact that any competitor who seeks only to destroy his competitor's chances, when his own race is over, is a bad sportsman, because that is subjective. It's just the civilised view.



It was just a touch. He doesn't know at that moment about the damage. There was a lot of similar crashes in F1 which ennded lucyly (MS 96 Monza, MS 2002 Montreal). Hill screw it. MS has more point in 12 races than Damon in 16 with a better car. FIA gave to Damon an 50 point advantage, but is wasn't enough.


#8298 Szoelloe

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:35

Indeed.

So you are sticking to the theory that if a racer is in front of another it is ok to crash them out of the race if they try to pass, is that what you are saying, being in front is justification for any type of dangerous driving? I have to disagree.
I commend you on attempting to refute two of the nineteen dirty deeds listed even if your attempt was a complete failure. Looking forward to some new and bizarre justifications for the other sixteen Schumacher sportsmanship failures listed, remember this is only a partial list, when you get done attempting to refute these I will put up the next twenty.


no he isn't. He is just not sticking to YOUR theory, that's all. You may put up the next twenty now, I promise you I will read that just as much I have read this one, donk.


How do you know this?

He doesn't, it is speculation.

#8299 ivand911

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:41

Some pictures from years:
http://img2.auto-mot...54ce-304599.jpg
http://img4.auto-mot...6be6-304581.jpg
http://img2.auto-mot...7b89-304603.jpg
http://img2.auto-mot...19c1-304613.jpg
http://img3.auto-mot...f963-304659.jpg
http://img1.auto-mot...890a-304709.jpg
http://img3.auto-mot...8ed2-304718.jpg
Articles:
http://translate.goo...en-3260553.html
http://www.michael-s...w...924&lang=uk

Schumacher could return to Ferrari in 2011 :drunk: 28 December is Spanish fool day (like 1 April).
http://translate.goo...dXOazvgvre4i_GQ
http://www.f1aldia.c...-ferrari-2011/#

Edited by ivand911, 31 December 2010 - 13:39.


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#8300 frp

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:36

It was just a touch. He doesn't know at that moment about the damage.

Of course. Silly me!