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#8601 baddog

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:01

And if prost/senna or even moss etc had been driving in the modern era they would have trained to modern standards. Hence its all irrelevant.


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#8602 gdanskii

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:17

And if prost/senna or even moss etc had been driving in the modern era they would have trained to modern standards. Hence its all irrelevant.


So your argument is that they aren't as fast as moden drivers, but if they training training today they would be, but how do you know they would able to cut it with the moden erra training, we don't, therefore all we know is that this generatios is faster, but this may only be due to modern training as you kindly pointed out.

#8603 Paco

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:20

I personally don't think the grids of today are any better then years gone by. I think what we are seeing is simply a result of the following huge advancements in electronics and materials.

1. Manual Gearbox vs. Sequential gearbox with electronic paddle shit. Ridiculously short gear changes. Impossible to miss a shift.
2. Steel brakes vs. Carbon/Ceramic/Whatever compounds used today. Ridiculously short braking distances. Next to no brake fade.
3. Serious reliability. Cars are simply built to much higher standards and don't break down.
4. ECUs with serious engine mapping and anti-tire slip technologies.
5. Tire technology. Next to no marbling off line.
6. Track layouts. Chicane's and huge run-offs not penalizing mistakes made on track. Years gone by, you went into the marbles or into the sand/gravel and that was it.. pretty much resulted in an end of race.
7. Engine # limits. Drivers can push for max any longer as engine reliability is a very very serious concern so they need to baby them (both in driving style and engine mapping).
8. Testing Limits. Drivers are getting very limited time to exploliate a cars subtle nuiances due to such short amounts of track time outside of race day.

Success in F1 now is almost only a result of the engineers within a team, eeking out an advantage in the design rules (ie diffuser fights of the past years) and not the driver. A team's success is probably now 90% engineering, 6% luck (weather, keeping your nose out of pile ups etc), 4% driver.

That said, drivers of today are more equal in preparation and training vs. years gone by. Their level of fitness is more equal where drivers of days gone by were less fitness oriented (JPM) and driver development is much more focused in development series. So they are coming into F1 more even so an individuals impact is less as they all pretty contribute equally as they've come through the same development program for the most part.

I personally dont believe we will ever see a Jacques Villeneuve 1st race scenario ever again were a new driver to a series comes in and blow the doors off of the established driver by a huge margin.

I personally feel F1 needs to go a bit retro in some of it's ideas to make it more interesting:

1. Drop the BLUE FLAG rule as it currently stands. Make it so that only if a lead driver follows another backmarker for 10 laps should the backmarker have to move aside. Force a driver to get by with their skill and force the issue and not a blue flag after 2 corners of following. Insane rule. Image how different races would play out if the leader got stuck behind a backmarker for that long and #2 and #3 were stuck behind as well..

2. Get rid of this crazy long life engine format. Teams should be allocated 1 engine per race and 1 engine per test session pre season and 1 engine per 2 test sessions during the season testing.

3. Increase the number of test session preseason: Jan 15 - March 1; test sessions every 7days for the 1st 4 weeks, then every 10days until the start of the season.
4. Increase the number of in-season test sesssions. 1 / month.

5. Make Friday 3 - 1hr test session (9:30 - 10:30am, 12:00 - 1:00pm, 2:30-3:30pm). Ensure 3 sessions on Sat (1 of which is qualifying).
6. Eliminate the drop out qualifying format. So what if a driver gets stuck in traffic, mixes up the grid leading to more action on Sunday!

7. Removal of most track chicanes ;-)

The simple fact is, modern formula 1 as it currently stands simply doesn't allow Michael to show his true worth to a team by simply looking at Sunday's results. I still believe he'll be a major part of helping bring car up the grid fast and Merc is better having him but more cause of his approach, leadership style and feedback to the engineers. As for eclipsing his teammate, I think it will always now be close and only a hair seperating them on Saturday and Sunday's becuase of points 1-6 above in the 1st list.

Edited by Paco, 24 February 2011 - 10:31.


#8604 baddog

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:27

So your argument is that they aren't as fast as moden drivers, but if they training training today they would be, but how do you know they would able to cut it with the moden erra training, we don't, therefore all we know is that this generatios is faster, but this may only be due to modern training as you kindly pointed out.


No, we don't know any such thing. In fact we have no objective measure of these things at all. You are deciding modern drivers are faster (In a skill based sport this is not at all certain), are deciding that you know why, and deciding (most strangely) that this tells us something.

It doesn't, and your entire point is irrelevant.

#8605 arknor

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:48

No, we don't know any such thing. In fact we have no objective measure of these things at all. You are deciding modern drivers are faster (In a skill based sport this is not at all certain), are deciding that you know why, and deciding (most strangely) that this tells us something.

It doesn't, and your entire point is irrelevant.

lets stick them in a 90s car and see how fast modern drivers are.

was it hamilton who said he couldnt imagine driving sennas manual gearbox car flat out? ie he doesnt think he could do it for a single time attack lap never mind over a race distance.

all we know is schumacher drove those cars and was very fast , barrichello the lap dog of that era is still faster than more than half the current grid and even he will have lost quite alot of speed over the years

Edited by arknor, 24 February 2011 - 10:49.


#8606 zack1994

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:13

lets stick them in a 90s car and see how fast modern drivers are.

was it hamilton who said he couldnt imagine driving sennas manual gearbox car flat out? ie he doesnt think he could do it for a single time attack lap never mind over a race distance.

all we know is schumacher drove those cars and was very fast , barrichello the lap dog of that era is still faster than more than half the current grid and even he will have lost quite alot of speed over the years

i don't believe rubens has lost any speed at all, but schumacher is the best in my opinion obviously not at the moment because he's been away for three years, but the schumacher of old definitely is

#8607 damonw

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:24

lets stick them in a 90s car and see how fast modern drivers are.

was it hamilton who said he couldnt imagine driving sennas manual gearbox car flat out? ie he doesnt think he could do it for a single time attack lap never mind over a race distance.

all we know is schumacher drove those cars and was very fast , barrichello the lap dog of that era is still faster than more than half the current grid and even he will have lost quite alot of speed over the years


Hamilton would say that out of respect. Schumacer the king of f1 when technology was at it's limits e.g 04 was excellent with the old manual gearbox. The top drivers of today would win in any era. Vettel, alonso and Hamilton would have been very special in the 80's

#8608 damonw

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:27

lets stick them in a 90s car and see how fast modern drivers are.

was it hamilton who said he couldnt imagine driving sennas manual gearbox car flat out? ie he doesnt think he could do it for a single time attack lap never mind over a race distance.

all we know is schumacher drove those cars and was very fast , barrichello the lap dog of that era is still faster than more than half the current grid and even he will have lost quite alot of speed over the years


Hamilton would say that out of respect. Schumacer the king of f1 when technology was at it's peak e.g 04 was excellent with the old manual gearbox. The top drivers of today would win in any era. Vettel, alonso and Hamilton would have been very special in the 80's. The likes of senna and Prost in my eyes would be able but they wouldn't really standout imo

#8609 Group B

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:27

What i believe is the best of the next generation is always slightly better than the best of the previous, like any sport, however the best of the previous generation are still able to hang with most of the next generation. Hope that makes sense.

With all due respect, bollocks.

The reasons some (athletic) sports continually set new records is diet, equipment and training techniques. There's no reason the 'next generation' would automatically be better unless Usain Bolt has a child with Marion Jones, or Roger Federer decides to squeeze one out with Justine Henin. Even then it's not guaranteed.

Driving a car fast is far less dependent on the above factors than, say, 400m running, so there's very little reason to believe Alonso or Vettel are any better than Prost, Lauda, Clark, Fangio or Carracicola. You need time in the car to develop neck muscles and such the like, but beyond that I have no doubt that a young MS, AS or NP would have no trouble holding their own against today's best.

(Edited for typo)

Edited by Group B, 24 February 2011 - 11:59.


#8610 damonw

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:46

With all due respect, bollocks.

The reasons some (athletic) sports continually set new records is diet, equipment and training techniques. There's no reason the 'next generation' would automatically be better unless Usain Bolt has a child with Marion Jones, or Roger Federer decides to squeeze one out with Justine Henin. Even then it's not guaranteed.

Driving a car fast is far less dependent on the above factors than, say, 400m running, so there's very little reason to believe Alonso or Vettel are any better than Prost, Lauda, Clark, Fangio or Carracicola. You need time in the car to develop neck muscles and such the like, but beyond that I have not doubt that a young MS, AS or NP would have no trouble holding they're own against today's best.


Snooker is not a physical game and the standard as been raised immensely. Davis and Henry the stars of the 80's and 90's in my eyes wouldn't have won many world titles if any against the current crop of players

#8611 Szoelloe

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:47

With all due respect, bollocks.

The reasons some (athletic) sports continually set new records is diet, equipment and training techniques. There's no reason the 'next generation' would automatically be better unless Usain Bolt has a child with Marion Jones, or Roger Federer decides to squeeze one out with Justine Henin. Even then it's not guaranteed.

Driving a car fast is far less dependent on the above factors than, say, 400m running, so there's very little reason to believe Alonso or Vettel are any better than Prost, Lauda, Clark, Fangio or Carracicola. You need time in the car to develop neck muscles and such the like, but beyond that I have not doubt that a young MS, AS or NP would have no trouble holding they're own against today's best.

You know, this is seriously off, but I had a good laugh, 'cause Agassi and Steffi Graf have children.......

Edited by Szoelloe, 24 February 2011 - 11:47.


#8612 Group B

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:57

Snooker is not a physical game and the standard as been raised immensely. Davis and Henry the stars of the 80's and 90's in my eyes wouldn't have won many world titles if any against the current crop of players

Really? Go take a look how many 147s Hendry's got, or how many centuries. I agree that the overall standard has gone up, but I imagine that's down to application, dedication, practice and the vicious circle rise in quality of competition. If the most natrually talented players of the 80s or 90s were growing up in the sport today I see no reasn they wouldn't raise their game in similar fashion.

The alternative argument that the human race as a whole has got developed 'immensesly' better snooker genes in a single generation with no evolutionary driving force or reward is, at best utterly laughable.

#8613 damonw

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 12:22

Really? Go take a look how many 147s Hendry's got, or how many centuries. I agree that the overall standard has gone up, but I imagine that's down to application, dedication, practice and the vicious circle rise in quality of competition. If the most natrually talented players of the 80s or 90s were growing up in the sport today I see no reasn they wouldn't raise their game in similar fashion.

The alternative argument that the human race as a whole has got developed 'immensesly' better snooker genes in a single generation with no evolutionary driving force or reward is, at best utterly laughable.


You said it all, the rise in quality of competition is much, much higher than say 25 yr ago

#8614 Frans

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 12:34

I love it.

Ya know, maybe Schumacher is STILL the same mega-talented "kuch-KUCH-KUCH" driver he was back at the 90's en 2000's... maybe ... (one must believe in his talent, to think there is some) ...

But I see it differently. He never had such talent. He never was the man who could win in a so called Minardi. The myth building around his person has been taken out of proportions. Schumacher, the driver who always had a ONE man team, with a 2nd slave driver with dubious contracts the world never saw.... yet, it was a public not so secret secret.....

No team orders would mean basicly, Schumacher would not beat his teammates. And here it is ... 2010, NO TEAM orders, and viola, it happens just as it should. Fastest man in front at Mercedes and the name of the fastest is NOT from a WDC winner, but from a non-RACE winner even. hmmm. he's getting old? the car is not suited to him? No more technical advantages... no more cheats and no more slowing down teammates.... well, bye bye schumacher, because it seems the only way he COULD win was WITH the help of all of these external factors, what where NOT ON HIS WHEEL.

and then now .... 2011 season is approaching.... will he prove us wrong? or will the FIA try to restore some of that so called "fake-magick" of Schumacher?

Well, I can tell ya ... I am really excited! :lol:

#8615 iakhtar

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 12:39

In my opinion the current era is overly tech reliant, it's all about the cars and engineers more than it's ever been before, the drivers are becoming far less important.

Thinking back to last season when abit of rain threw a spanner in the works or the introduction of actual tyre degradation in the recent tests causing driver panic, I just get the feeling these current drivers would really struggle in previous eras especially with the dangerous nature of the sport back then, how fast would they still be with genuine lack of safety, who knows.

#8616 Tardis40

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 13:26

Hamilton wouldn't have survived a season in the old dangerous days. Alonso would have prospered.

But this is neither the Hamilton nor the Alonso thread. Schumacher's accomplishments speak for themselves.

Edited by Tardis40, 24 February 2011 - 13:28.


#8617 Scotracer

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 13:33

I love it.

Ya know, maybe Schumacher is STILL the same mega-talented "kuch-KUCH-KUCH" driver he was back at the 90's en 2000's... maybe ... (one must believe in his talent, to think there is some) ...

But I see it differently. He never had such talent. He never was the man who could win in a so called Minardi. The myth building around his person has been taken out of proportions. Schumacher, the driver who always had a ONE man team, with a 2nd slave driver with dubious contracts the world never saw.... yet, it was a public not so secret secret.....

No team orders would mean basicly, Schumacher would not beat his teammates. And here it is ... 2010, NO TEAM orders, and viola, it happens just as it should. Fastest man in front at Mercedes and the name of the fastest is NOT from a WDC winner, but from a non-RACE winner even. hmmm. he's getting old? the car is not suited to him? No more technical advantages... no more cheats and no more slowing down teammates.... well, bye bye schumacher, because it seems the only way he COULD win was WITH the help of all of these external factors, what where NOT ON HIS WHEEL.

and then now .... 2011 season is approaching.... will he prove us wrong? or will the FIA try to restore some of that so called "fake-magick" of Schumacher?

Well, I can tell ya ... I am really excited! :lol:


I've seen better logic come out of Creationists' mouths :drunk:


#8618 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 13:49

Posts deleted.

Please avoid personal attacks and trolling.

#8619 BRK

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 14:51

I'm actually looking forward to this season-I think we all know by now the W02's going to start the season in pretty bad shape so I guess expectations are low all around. Not a bad thing as even solid points finishes would be a morale booster for the team. Plus the rustiness would've worn off by now,and we have proper data from last season to compare with during the FPs. Unlike 2010 when he was heading blind into every weekend.


Good luck to him!

Edited by ForeverF1, 24 February 2011 - 14:54.


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#8620 KiloWatt

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 15:04

I'm actually looking forward to this season-I think we all know by now the W02's going to start the season in pretty bad shape so I guess expectations are low all around. Not a bad thing as even solid points finishes would be a morale booster for the team. Plus the rustiness would've worn off by now,and we have proper data from last season to compare with during the FPs. Unlike 2010 when he was heading blind into every weekend.


Good luck to him!


Though I see where you're coming from and this isn't really the most appropriate place to discuss it. I'd disagree (for now) with your assessment of the W02's performance. I rather think it will come of age.

Though we are united in our hopes of seeing The F1 Fuhrer do well again (that's an affectionate term, not a derogatory one).

#8621 Fortymark

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 15:23

There is some logic to this argument drivers are getting quicker. F1 magazine rans an article about it a few years ago. i can't remember the detail. But if you look at any sport, people have just got better and better at it, records tumble every year. There is nothing to suggest this evolution is not taking part in f1. I don't buy into Hamilton and Alonso would of blown away Senna or Prost, but i do believe they would shaded them over a season.

E.g everyone is an Alesi fan and regarded him as quick, but in the time he was paired with Prost he was on average 1½ secs a lap slower (you can look that up) If a driver was that far of his team mates pace now, he'd be fired. and you would be laughed of any forum for suggesting a driver so far off his team mate is quick :), So clearly the level which the entire field is performing at is very high.

What i believe is the best of the next generation is always slightly better than the best of the previous, like any sport, however the best of the previous generation are still able to hang with most of the next generation. Hope that makes sense.

And this is where i feel MS will fit in if he gets back to somewhere near his best, able to best most of the field except the top two or three. I feel it is a pity we will never see him in a competative car again.


The biggest evolution in F1 is actually the cars whom get better and better for every year. The drivers today complain about tire degradation, high fuel loads,
poor visability in every damp/wet race, poor balance etc etc.
The cars of today are generating higher G-forces but in many curves the driver rests his head against the cockpit side walls. On a 80:ies or early 90:ies car the driver couldn´t
do that. The races back then also usually lastest for a longer time.

I rewatched a few races from the 80:ies a couple of weeks ago, I was amazed by how much more input the driver had over the race outcome than today.
The whole reliability issue was much more up to the driver, taking care of your tires and fuel which could earn you the race win. In every gearchange you had to
take away one hand of the steering wheel and heel-toe in every downshift, just imagine driving around in Monaco with no powersteering for 2 hours and one hand constant
changing gears and the other one steering the car...
If you missed that a few times you could overrev the engine or break the gearbox.
The race strategy was more or less up to yourself. Pitstops was more like a lottery, lapping cars was sometimes as hard as a real overtaking manouvre etc etc.

#8622 RSNS

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 16:35

The biggest evolution in F1 is actually the cars whom get better and better for every year. The drivers today complain about tire degradation, high fuel loads,
poor visability in every damp/wet race, poor balance etc etc.
The cars of today are generating higher G-forces but in many curves the driver rests his head against the cockpit side walls. On a 80:ies or early 90:ies car the driver couldn´t
do that. The races back then also usually lastest for a longer time.

I rewatched a few races from the 80:ies a couple of weeks ago, I was amazed by how much more input the driver had over the race outcome than today.
The whole reliability issue was much more up to the driver, taking care of your tires and fuel which could earn you the race win. In every gearchange you had to
take away one hand of the steering wheel and heel-toe in every downshift, just imagine driving around in Monaco with no powersteering for 2 hours and one hand constant
changing gears and the other one steering the car...
If you missed that a few times you could overrev the engine or break the gearbox.
The race strategy was more or less up to yourself. Pitstops was more like a lottery, lapping cars was sometimes as hard as a real overtaking manouvre etc etc.


Yes, driver input is very different. But today's cars are perhaps not easier to drive. They just require different skills.

#8623 Paco

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 18:50

Yes, driver input is very different. But today's cars are perhaps not easier to drive. They just require different skills.


The fact that the grid is sooo evenly match with only 0.5secs for the top teams. I feel it goes to show that the cars are way easier to drive, watching them them is almost seems like they are locomotives on rails with drivers making very very very few large errors - more like missing a breaking point by a 1mm :lol: costing a 1/10th and now his lap is rubbish. Sure the drivers are more "busy" in the cockpit tweaking balances, wings, air ducts, fuel maps etc. but as for all out driving, today's cars are miles easier to drive then the 80 and early 90s. I do agree though, it takes a different kind of driver to drive today's F1 cars well.

Different rules, different technologies, different demands on a driver.. Curious to see if Schumi can find a way to pull more out of the 2011 car then he was out of 2010.. this year we'll be able to see if he is still an adaptable racer or if today's cars are simply not suited to his driving style.

#8624 Tardis40

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 19:26

The competition is close because the plethora of rule changes and restrictions made it that way. Only thing is that it made overtaking even more impossible, so now we have movable bodywork and Kers V2. It's going to be interesting to see how the strategy plays out and how the latest round of innovations work.

Edited by Tardis40, 24 February 2011 - 19:28.


#8625 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 22:28

Hamilton wouldn't have survived a season in the old dangerous days. Alonso would have prospered.

Alonso bearly survived a season with Hamilton. He can actually barely survive a race with a decent paced team mate

#8626 Buttoneer

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 22:31

A reminder to all that the topic of conversation is Michael Schumacher, please.

#8627 Kubiccia

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 00:28

How wrong you are, If MS has times better than Rosberg then the "Mercedes are favouring MS" crowd will start up.

:up: :up:
yeah, you're absolutely right!  ;)

#8628 George Costanza

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 05:17

I doubt all of the current drivers would be fast in Fangio's Mercedes.... Now that is truly incredible skills to haul that beast around....


Edited by George Costanza, 25 February 2011 - 05:19.


#8629 black magic

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 05:37

truth is they all ahve the same skills, ability to balance a car on the edge and total self belief.

would the modern driver drive an old car/ circuitwith its lack of safety. no way but then the entire attitude to risk and life was also different.

I have no doubt that a schumacher or hamilton racing in the 50's would have been a contender or that fangio with modern fitness would have excelled today.

humans have not changed substantially in 40 yrs, their reflexes are no better, the thrill of driving a car on the limt has not changed.

#8630 Fondmetal

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 06:57

What a load of BS, as usual its typical comments from those who dispised MS winning from the early/mid 90's onwards.. Now they see it as a good opportunity to attack him.

Listen, this guy is 7x WC, 91 wins, on of the best ever. I dont think he or his true fans care what people say. He still has the fitness, the reactions are still there (ok, any human would not be as they were during their 20's) the Mercedes has been a dog, Nico didnt exactly blow him away, lets get that into perspective. If Mercedes gives him a good car he will be one of the best out there.

Vettle has so far proved nothing, he is good out in front and in a dominant car, he cannot attack as we saw last year a few times it ends up in tangles. Hamilton, is the next guy from Alonso who is the complete driver.



#8631 JackTorrance

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 07:11

Listen,



They dont. Its a bash fest filled thread, yet again.

Ive seen schumacher from his early days, and it was evident the man was a great talent, making Brundle look very mediocre in that stick shifted Benetton.

He comes back after 3 years with all the testing restriction and was usually on pace with Rosberg, sometimes a few tenths slower. For an old man he looked better vs his teammate than Massa vs Alonso for instance. Compare it with come back of other champs; Mansell didnt even fit in the car and admitted defeat after only 5 races in 1995, Villeneuve was nowhere in the Renault, Mika was an embarrassment in testing times.

I dont mind criticism based on facts but many posts here are just filled with twisted assumptions designed to finally let go of some unreleased tensions, frustrations and jealousy.

#8632 Group B

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 08:50

truth is they all ahve the same skills, ability to balance a car on the edge and total self belief.

would the modern driver drive an old car/ circuitwith its lack of safety. no way but then the entire attitude to risk and life was also different.

I have no doubt that a schumacher or hamilton racing in the 50's would have been a contender or that fangio with modern fitness would have excelled today.

humans have not changed substantially in 40 yrs, their reflexes are no better, the thrill of driving a car on the limt has not changed.

:up:

#8633 Tardis40

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 11:24

Michael's CV is so far beyond what any other driver could hope to attain. The wins and the titles will never be matched. The poles possibly. Doesn't leave much room for bragging about other drivers, so the only way out is to try to demean the man lol


#8634 Sakae

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 11:37

Michael's CV is so far beyond what any other driver could hope to attain. The wins and the titles will never be matched. The poles possibly. Doesn't leave much room for bragging about other drivers, so the only way out is to try to demean the man lol

He is also a car mechanic by trade, and I think that gives him a little edge when he speaks with engineering staff. :up:

Edited by Sakae, 25 February 2011 - 11:37.


#8635 puxanando

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 11:42

He is also a car mechanic by trade, and I think that gives him a little edge when he speaks with engineering staff. :up:

:stoned: He made his apprenticeship years in a VW-workshop (Bergmeister) in my native town and put his golden hands on the old VW-bully of my father.....

#8636 cheapracer

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:13

truth is they all ahve the same skills, ability to balance a car on the edge and total self belief.

would the modern driver drive an old car/ circuitwith its lack of safety. no way but then the entire attitude to risk and life was also different.

I have no doubt that a schumacher or hamilton racing in the 50's would have been a contender or that fangio with modern fitness would have excelled today.

humans have not changed substantially in 40 yrs, their reflexes are no better, the thrill of driving a car on the limt has not changed.


No you are just simply and totally wrong.

Look at any atheletic sport before and now, they run faster (and for longer), they jump higher, they throw further, they hit harder - everything to do with the sportsmen and women has improved through better diet, training, biomechanics and psyhological understanding.

Also F1 drivers come from a huge sea of tens of thousands of wannabees (Karts mostly), if you include kids who start on computer sims then number that as millions, compared to the previous ponds of hundreds way back when.


with all due respect cheapracer :up: , being phisically fit has got nothing to do with talent !


It has everything to do with how long you can keep that talent going, 2 hours in a F1 race is massively demanding on the body and was the scurge of most Japanese F1 drivers - ever notice how fast Japanese drivers are in the wet when the pyshical strains are less? A tired driver can not perform at his best and one of the reasons Senna and MS excelled was due to their fitness levels which all F1 drivers undertake now.

Edited by cheapracer, 25 February 2011 - 12:22.


#8637 Group B

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:22

No you are just simply and totally wrong.

Look at any atheletic sport before and now, they run faster (and for longer), they jump higher, they throw further, they hit harder - everything to do with the sportsmen and women has improved through better diet, training, biomechanics and psyhological understanding.

Also F1 drivers come from a huge sea of tens of thousands of wannabees (Karts mostly), if you include kids who start on computer sims then number that as millions, compared to the previous ponds of hundreds way back when.

None of that makes him wrong. The point is that levels of innate talent haven't changed, so if you dropped a young Senna or Clark into today's world and gave them the same access to better fitness training, diet, etc then they would do just fine.

#8638 JackTorrance

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:30

Michael's CV is so far beyond what any other driver could hope to attain. The wins and the titles will never be matched. The poles possibly. Doesn't leave much room for bragging about other drivers, so the only way out is to try to demean the man lol



yeah, while in reality Schumacher gave more money (50 million dollars) to charity than all other drivers combined. So besides being the greatest driver ever in terms of results, he is also a very open hearted person who shares a big chunk of his personal fortune with the weak. I think his contribution to the tsunami-victims still stands as the biggest made by a single person.

#8639 cheapracer

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:35

:p

None of that makes him wrong. The point is that levels of innate talent haven't changed, so if you dropped a young Senna or Clark into today's world and gave them the same access to better fitness training, diet, etc then they would do just fine.


Thats simply not provable as you have no way to know if previous drivers can achieve the required fitness levels necessary today or that they are intelligent enough to develop a modern car with todays engineers.

Take Satoru Nakajima for example, blindingly fast, no one could touch him in F2 but didn't have the strength to drive modern downforce F1 cars over a race distance (his own admission) and was a front runner every time it rained that required less demand on his body - he obviously had the talent to run at the front in the 60's and 70's but not modern.

It takes more than just "talent" to win in modern F1 where thinking and stanima are in far more demand than any previous era.

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#8640 TheMortalBard

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 13:50

http://www.motorspor...p...01180&FS=F1


" .....Certainly it is not possible to turn back the biological clock," Schumacher admitted in interview with ADAC Motorwelt magazine.

"It is a fact that I am not absolutely the same now as I was 10 or 15 years ago.

"But as to whether I am still good enough, I would say yes," he insisted. ..... "


#8641 slaveceru

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 16:50

No you are just simply and totally wrong.

Look at any atheletic sport before and now, they run faster (and for longer), they jump higher, they throw further, they hit harder - everything to do with the sportsmen and women has improved through better diet, training, biomechanics and psyhological understanding.

Also F1 drivers come from a huge sea of tens of thousands of wannabees (Karts mostly), if you include kids who start on computer sims then number that as millions, compared to the previous ponds of hundreds way back when.




It has everything to do with how long you can keep that talent going, 2 hours in a F1 race is massively demanding on the body and was the scurge of most Japanese F1 drivers - ever notice how fast Japanese drivers are in the wet when the pyshical strains are less? A tired driver can not perform at his best and one of the reasons Senna and MS excelled was due to their fitness levels which all F1 drivers undertake now.

So you are saying that people are becoming better in every area in comparison to previous generations. Give me a break. Technology, technic, training, sport medicine and everything that is connected with training evolved in time but not us. The result of this is that humans are pushing the frontier of their capabilities to the edge. At the end it is stupid to say that Senna would not succed in now days with all the help and technology that is around. He proved that he was one of the best if not the best drivers in his generation but this can not be said jet for Hamilton or Alonso.

#8642 ivand911

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 16:59

Who cares about drivers from before, now and from the future? Get with this BS out of here.

Edited by ivand911, 25 February 2011 - 16:59.


#8643 Sakae

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 17:39

:stoned: He made his apprenticeship years in a VW-workshop (Bergmeister) in my native town and put his golden hands on the old VW-bully of my father.....


So, we have one happy customer, don't we? :p

#8644 puxanando

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 18:05

So, we have one happy customer, don't we? :p

world is little.
His brother Ralf meet his now wife Cora in my town, because his brother had there his work..... :cat:

sorry for OT.

#8645 ivand911

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 18:13

world is little.
His brother Ralf meet his now wife Cora in my town, because his brother had there his work..... :cat:

sorry for OT.

And your town is?


#8646 puxanando

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 19:52

And your town is?

 ;) Langenfeld in Germany beside the rhine!

#8647 Fondmetal

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:27

They dont. Its a bash fest filled thread, yet again.

Ive seen schumacher from his early days, and it was evident the man was a great talent, making Brundle look very mediocre in that stick shifted Benetton.

He comes back after 3 years with all the testing restriction and was usually on pace with Rosberg, sometimes a few tenths slower. For an old man he looked better vs his teammate than Massa vs Alonso for instance. Compare it with come back of other champs; Mansell didnt even fit in the car and admitted defeat after only 5 races in 1995, Villeneuve was nowhere in the Renault, Mika was an embarrassment in testing times.

I dont mind criticism based on facts but many posts here are just filled with twisted assumptions designed to finally let go of some unreleased tensions, frustrations and jealousy.


I agree, I remember Michael Making his debut at Spa, as a 14 year old I was some what stunned to see him put that car 7th on the grid, behind the legends and veterans of 80's. What was even impressive for me was that benetton was always snapping on the tail of the mighty FW14B's and his perfomance in Spain surpasses that of Vettels win in Monza.. he was mega fast and closing Mansell in huge chunks.. untill Mansell extracted all the performance out of his williams. The Benetton was some 50-60 BHP down on the Williams and Mclarens.

#8648 Group B

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:24

Yep, the majority of current Michael bashers never even saw him back then. I began 1994 as a 50% fan of Michael due to his previous heroics and a 50% fan of Hill for patriotic reasons, but by the half way stage I was totally converted; the sight of that Benetton being rung by the neck to match those on-rails Williams was nothing short of fantastic.

#8649 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 13:33

yeah, while in reality Schumacher gave more money (50 million dollars) to charity than all other drivers combined. So besides being the greatest driver ever in terms of results, he is also a very open hearted person who shares a big chunk of his personal fortune with the weak. I think his contribution to the tsunami-victims still stands as the biggest made by a single person.


Bigger than some governments if I recall correctly.

#8650 Tardis40

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 20:33

I'm sure we all know that Michael didn't come from a wealthy family. I've heard the stories about how his Dad got him started in karting on not much more than a hope and a prayer. He got quite a return on his investment, and I'm sure he's very proud of the way his son uses his wealth and influence to help the less fortunate.

When he's done with racing once and for all, I hope Michael gets together with a top notch writer to do a biography with plenty of photos. I'd be first in line for an autographed copy of that book!