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#9201 BRK

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 16:51

What if Michael's input is a part of the Mercedes problem?


Was Button's input the reason they produced such dogs in 2007 and 2008? The same Button whose input was also responsible for the BAR 006 and their excellent 2004 season?

Try to be a bit more sensible.

I have an honest question. I understand Schumacher's reflexes and hand-eye coordination may not be as good as they used to be in his heyday. But, surely his leaderships skills, developments skills, and all the other skills that made him such an asset should all still be there. We've all heard stories about him ringing up engineers in the middle of the night with questions, motivating them, etc.

Is he not doing any of this stuff anymore?


Maybe he is, how would you know? Are candies and motivational speeches going to help if the core design team is incompetent? Not saying it is, but it wouldn't help if this were the case.

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#9202 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 16:57

I have an honest question. I understand Schumacher's reflexes and hand-eye coordination may not be as good as they used to be in his heyday. But, surely his leaderships skills, developments skills, and all the other skills that made him such an asset should all still be there. We've all heard stories about him ringing up engineers in the middle of the night with questions, motivating them, etc.

Is he not doing any of this stuff anymore?


He might still be doing that.

However there is a difference between ringing up Rory Byrne and Micky Mercedes at 3am.

If you're not upto it, you just aren't up to it. That's the difference between a good engineer and a GREAT engineer. Same applies in sport or any othrt discipline.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 10 April 2011 - 16:59.


#9203 Sakae

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 16:59

Driver is responsible for conveying accurate feedback on his car driveability, and ensuring that engineers do understand his feedback. Resolving problems however cannot be put to Michael's doorsteps, just as reconcilliation of differences between their two drivers.

#9204 boldhakka

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:02

Maybe he is, how would you know? Are candies and motivational speeches going to help if the core design team is incompetent? Not saying it is, but it wouldn't help if this were the case.


Would it help if the core design team is already made up of competent geniuses? That's my point.

#9205 Craven Morehead

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:04

So this year he might be faster than Rosberg on occasions (but Rosberg still leads 2-0 in quali) in a car more suited to his style - but as you say - it seems they are going backwards compared with other teams.


As you know, points (the only measure that counts) are not awarded on Saturday. After two events, Michael leads Nico 2 - 0.

#9206 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:07

Would it help if the core design team is already made up of competent geniuses? That's my point.


There are no geniuses at Mercedes otherwise they would have demonstrated brilliance over and over again. Aside from 2004 and 2009, they've been solid midfield runners much like Sauber.

#9207 BRK

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:12

Would it help if the core design team is already made up of competent geniuses? That's my point.


It certainly did at Ferrari and Benetton. How many titles did having competent 'geniuses' win Benetton and Ferrari before Schumacher?

#9208 boldhakka

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:23

It certainly did at Ferrari and Benetton. How many titles did having competent 'geniuses' win Benetton and Ferrari before Schumacher?


Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I meant, would motivational stuff and leadership skills help in the case of an already competent design team? I would think it would make no difference at all. I imagine such things make more of a difference when the team isn't as great as Rory was.

So you're saying Rory worked harder because of Schumacher?

Edited by boldhakka, 10 April 2011 - 17:24.


#9209 Clatter

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:25

I have an honest question. I understand Schumacher's reflexes and hand-eye coordination may not be as good as they used to be in his heyday. But, surely his leaderships skills, developments skills, and all the other skills that made him such an asset should all still be there. We've all heard stories about him ringing up engineers in the middle of the night with questions, motivating them, etc.

Is he not doing any of this stuff anymore?


Just maybe that was all over hyped, but back in the day there was almost no test limit and Ferrari could spend all day lapping their own test track messing about with setups and different solutions.

#9210 Polle

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:34

Well Schumacher managed to salvage to what is a mess of a car, so I guess its not the end of the world, though I really wished the car had more race pace. You really know the car is terrible when Nico wis fighting with the STR's with a Lotus less than half a second behind them.....

#9211 SeanValen

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:44

Schumacher's opening laps and starts since 2010 have largely been consistently great entertiainment, I know he's won loads of gps, but I've never seen him so consistently great in the opening laps, something new and improved from him in this era, until the car gets better, I don't think there's any better driver who's committed to maximising his starts in the way he's done, not always perfect, but he's done the business more often then others.

Opening laps are not easy, so many cars, so much confusion, races are won and lost in it, it takes a very calculated driver who is thinking on many levels, yet not plaiying iit safe.


:smoking: :up:

Edited by SeanValen, 10 April 2011 - 17:46.


#9212 BRK

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:48

I meant, would motivational stuff and leadership skills help in the case of an already competent design team? I would think it would make no difference at all.



I would think it would make a difference. Good cars don't win championships by themselves and would need the efforts of a brilliant driver to keep the team focused, to lead by example (as for instance by your work ethic), and to motivate when things aren't going well. All of this would make a big difference during in-season and post-season development and overall morale of the team. Lack of morale also results in shabby pitstops, appalling strategies, poor cohesion, infighting....and so on. All of which would destroy a title challenge no matter how well-designed a car is.

I imagine such things make more of a difference when the team isn't as great as Rory was.

So you're saying Rory worked harder because of Schumacher?


Why not? If you know your efforts are going to be rewarded as your driver is one that could extract maximum potential out of it and will not let it all go waste, of course you are going to strive harder. As I said, Byrne's cars never won a single title and his cars achieved little in five years at Benetton until Schumacher arrived on the scene. Newey's genius didn't win them anything until Vettel arrived at Red Bull...and so on. Perhaps Mercedes' resurgence late last year wasn't a fluke..

Besides, without Schumacher there never would have been any competent geniuses drawn to the same team to design title winning cars. It was his presence that drew talent into the team.

#9213 Fabs

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:55

LOL!

When Ferrari was absolutely dominant and Schumacher was winning all the time, some would say: "Yeah, he is winning but his car is the best by far and many other drivers could win in this situation"

And Schumacher nuthuggers would reply: "He has merits in having the best car. His imput, his motivation, his leadership skills are all responsible for Ferrari's success"

Now that Mercedes sucks.. nuthuggers say: "There is nothing he can do if the crew or the engineers are not competent enough. Schumacher is not an engineer or ar designer. He is just a driver. If the car is flawed, it is not his fault"

So let me see if I got that right: When Schumacher drives a dominant car, he gets all the merit for being a hardworker/developer/leader whose skills pushed the team to the limit.

When Schumacher drives a shady car for a couple of years with no improvement, he gets a free pass because there is nothing he can do about it and he doesn't share the blame with the team crew who are not competent enough.

So the great Schumacher who brought Ferrari from bottom to top with his personal leadership skills myth is BUSTED. Ferrari went from bottom to top because they had the money to bring the right personel. Schumacher was just a fast driver who happened to get this car. Just like Kimi, Massa or Alonso.

Edited by Fabs, 10 April 2011 - 17:57.


#9214 Sakae

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 17:59

So let me see if I got that right: When Schumacher drives a dominant car, he gets all the merit for being a hardworker/developer/leader whose skills pushed the team to the limit.

Perhaps shorter explanation could be, that he has correctly interpreted what vehicle does under different condition, and he was debriefed by people who knew how to work with that information. It actually could be as simple as that.

#9215 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 18:55

Please cut out the trolling and flamebaiting.

#9216 Eff1NZ

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 18:59

I think that we need to consider his car too. From top 6 car to get P9 is not bad. If he drive top 3 car , I would agree with you. But,this is not the case. He drove well today. 2011 will be another development year for the team.


I think what Fender was saying is that MS in no longer that driver who, by virtue of being on a team, simply elevates the performance of the team beyond that of a "good" driver. And that Mercedes should be looking for a driver who has that special spark.

No doubt MS used to be one of those. No more.

Problem is, there can be no guarantee that those types of drivers are around at any given time. The talent reveals itself in the very early stages of their career, reaches a plateau quickly, sustains itself for a period, and then declines. They are a once-in-a-generation type of talent. And, obviously, as I said, it's a talent that dissipates over time. It happened to all the great ones who had the "it" factor (if they lived long enough for people to witness it). It's not just pure speed. There have been a lot more of those. Its something a little extra.

People are going to have their own opinions about who of the current bunch have those qualities. Personally, I see only one of those (at this particular time) who is demonstrably of that type out there. Possibly two; although in this latter case, because of the team, it's hard to tell if the driver has that talent. Both are taken and firmly ensconced in their respective teams.

So while I kinda agree with Fender, what is MBZ to do? They can try to get someone who is almost of that type, but he also is taken. And unfortunately the team is just not of the stature to be exceptional without having that superstar to drive it (unless you happen upon an unintended loophole in the regulations; a temporary and unsustainable advantage). Brawn is a manager and a steady presence, not a brilliant designer.

It's hard for this discussion to go forward in a meaningful way, because of the immaturity of many of the posters who fix on a favorite or disliked driver/team and are just incapable of taking a balanced or dispassionate view of things. There are plenty those mature observers here, but they seem to get swallowed up by the chaff.




#9217 ivand911

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 19:10

Who have this special spark? Do you see what mess did today Alonso and Lewis? We can judge Michael in good car ,like every other driver. We have seen recent "strongest" driver when they don't have strong car. What you expect Michael to do with 6th strongest car? Michael have very clean drive today, with not easy car to drive. He have solid performance, he get in the points. Many battles with drivers in superior cars( or better performing at that moment).

Edited by ivand911, 10 April 2011 - 19:16.


#9218 eriknaa

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 19:29

Michael really did a great job with what he had today. A great start and first lap, where he actually was up battling with the Ferraris.
But it is very clear that Merc dont have the pace to challenge at the front, but when they have the car Michael will be competitive again.
Finishing 9th as the highest, just shows that much improvment is neeeded on the MGP W 02, but atleast Michael had the upper hand the whole weekend inside the them.

#9219 Fortymark

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:06

Everyone is saying Schumacher did a great race, just because he finished ahead of Rosberg..
He did a great start, that´s a fact but apart from that there´s not much impressing.

Look at the Renaults, both of them did great starts too and Heidfeld made it to the podium.
I don´t think the Mercedes is that far away from the speed of the Renos. Heidfeld was like
0,2 quicker tha Rosberg during qualifying and Petrov was equally as quick as Rosberg.

Koba was slower in qualifying but beat both Mercedes. Schumacher and Rosberg was fighting
with the STR and Force-Indias whom was about 1 second slower than the Merc in qualifying..

I´ve looked at the laptimes and I´m afraid that Rosberg was the faster one in free air.

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#9220 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:08

I don´t think the Mercedes is that far away from the speed of the Renos.

that's your problem

Rosberg was clearly faster this weekend. Does anyone actually doubt that?

#9221 ivand911

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:24

Forty there is one lap pace and race pace. You don't see the difference I guess? MGP car is little bit better(not much) in one lap pace(speed), where they are tragic on race pace. So what you show in Qualy have nothing to do with the race. It have something to do with starting position only.

#9222 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:25

Forty there is one lap pace and race pace. You don't see the difference I guess? MGP car is little bit better(not much) in one lap pace(speed), where they are tragic on race pace. So what you show in Qualy have nothing to do with the race. It have something to do with starting position only.

and the MGP is better on one lap pace WHEN everything goes right

hasn't happened yet :)

#9223 dde

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:26

I´ve looked at the laptimes and I´m afraid that Rosberg was the faster one in free air.


Well, don't be too afraid, you saw it wrong. Rosberg was faster not in free air, but at the beginnings of the runs. And much much slower at the end of the runs, that is why the gap between MS and NR kept on growing during the race. As Schumacher said, he was managing his tyres, Rosberg didn't seem to believe it was worthfull to do it.

Anyway, it's useless to compare them at this race, and it is useless to compare them in qual here or in Melbourne. The one who gets the first pb with the cars is the one who doesn't get the point. Pretty much stupid contest in my view.

0-0 sor far this year, in reality.

#9224 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:28

why is is useless to compare them at this race?

no technical issues for both, no incidents for both, one started in front and ended up behind
what would it take for a race to be worth using for comparison?

#9225 EdwardCullen

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:33

Everyone is saying Schumacher did a great race, just because he finished ahead of Rosberg..
He did a great start, that´s a fact but apart from that there´s not much impressing.

Look at the Renaults, both of them did great starts too and Heidfeld made it to the podium.
I don´t think the Mercedes is that far away from the speed of the Renos. Heidfeld was like
0,2 quicker tha Rosberg during qualifying and Petrov was equally as quick as Rosberg.

Koba was slower in qualifying but beat both Mercedes. Schumacher and Rosberg was fighting
with the STR and Force-Indias whom was about 1 second slower than the Merc in qualifying..

thats because Merc's one lap speed is superior, but their race pace utter crap!
You are a regular follower of f1, but u dont know this basic distinction? but if this was just trolling plz ignore what i said

I´ve looked at the laptimes and I´m afraid that Rosberg was the faster one in free air.

yeah plz post those laptimes here,
BTW did you get those times from www.ihateschumy.com by any chance? :lol:

#9226 dde

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:34

why is is useless to compare them at this race?

no technical issues for both, no incidents for both, one started in front and ended up behind
what would it take for a race to be worth using for comparison?


On french TV they said Rosberg had a kers problem (but they justified anytime Schumacher is in front by a likely probleme to Nico's car, while they seems quite happy to say Schumacher is too old when he is the one to have a pb, like staurday). But anyway, specifc problem or not, and beyond what I said about the beginnings and the ends of runs, did you see how erratic were the lap times of both drivers ? They have no consistancy at all. You can't compare nothing with such a crap car, that falls apart too often, and doesn't function consistanly even when it happens that in a particular lap or serie of laps, everything is "all right ".

#9227 EdwardCullen

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:38

On french TV they said Rosberg had a kers problem (but they justified anytime Schumacher is in front by a likely probleme to Nico's car, while they seems quite happy to say Schumacher is too old when he is the one to have a pb, like staurday). But anyway, specifc problem or not, and beyond what I said about the beginnings and the ends of runs, did you see how erratic were the lap times of both drivers ? They have no consistancy at all. You can't compare nothing with such a crap car, that falls apart too often, and doesn't function consistanly even when it happens that in a particular lap or serie of laps, everything is "all right ".

Official Merc press release dosenot state any problem from Nico's car....especially Nico would have said it loud if there was a problem ( as he was beaten by Schumy today)
merc press release
the only problem they had is in quly with DRS
that too it hindered Schumy in Q2

Edited by EdwardCullen, 10 April 2011 - 20:39.


#9228 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 20:51

The simple fact is that the Mercs aren't quick and they have a highee tyre wear rate relative their competitors.

In the end it wouldnt matter if they blitzed the field in qualifying, come race day they would be sitting ducks.

#9229 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:23

This is getting very frustrating now. Normally, driver mistakes should be taken as they come, but seeing how favorable the circumstances were for a comfortable top 10 classification, with the car finally working more or less ok, it's just very frustrating.

I'm sure Michael feels the same, one can only hope his outlook is more positive. The thought that, once again, there's not much to get out of this weekend is getting to me.

#9230 topical

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:24

For the 21st time since his comeback: time to retire. He was great in his day but it's just not there any more.

Edited by topical, 16 April 2011 - 07:24.


#9231 Sof1

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:38

Sadly, i am feeling that MS has lost some of his edge, especially in quali.

#9232 Massa_f1

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:42

Sadly, i am feeling that MS has lost some of his edge, especially in quali.


Indeed its time to walk away. Mercedes will never be a top tier team. I think he should just say enough is enough. He still has the speed but Mercedes was not the team for him.

#9233 vovelo

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:43

Sadly, i am feeling that MS has lost some of his edge, especially in quali.

Yeah, I agree many of his problems because of not so good quali pace. Race pace is good but quali is key factor .


#9234 Raelene

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:44

Yeah, I agree many of his problems because of not so good quali pace. Race pace is good but quali is key factor .


agree. He has to get qualy sorted because he has been better in the races than rosberg, just needs to qualy much better to get a good result

#9235 Disgrace

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:45

Sadly, i am feeling that MS has lost some of his edge, especially in quali.


News flash much? You're nearly a year late.

#9236 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:46

I agree. I think his ultimate speed has gone. His race speed is ok but qualifying is not there for him anymore. Shame really, he seemed on top of it towards last year.

I think he will walk away if they continue making 2nd rate cars ala Honda.

#9237 Professor Arturo

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:47

agree. He has to get qualy sorted because he has been better in the races than rosberg, just needs to qualy much better to get a good result

In races? He was better in Malaysia, but that is pretty much it. Rosberg has almost always been faster in both race in qualy, as for this year, we only can go by Malaysia but that is not "races" yet.

#9238 SEP

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:48

agree. He has to get qualy sorted because he has been better in the races than rosberg, just needs to qualy much better to get a good result


What???

Nico trouNced MS both in races and qualis. I can t beleive some here are already trying to rewrite history.

Edited by SEP, 16 April 2011 - 07:48.


#9239 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:48

It's hard to draw any conclusions on qualy speed after the ones run this season - first two with problems and now with an error.

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#9240 Raelene

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:49

Im only going on this year...and he has been better than Rosberg in the races, just not in qualy

Last year totally different story

#9241 eoin

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:49

Sadly, i am feeling that MS has lost some of his edge, especially in quali.


That has been clear for a while now.

#9242 ivand911

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:51

What???

Nico trouNced MS both in races and qualis. I can t beleive some here are already trying to rewrite history.

How many races team and Michael supported him only to get P7 in WCC at the end? How many time he was ahead of him and team put MS behind Nico? In Brasil MS let him pass twice. Japan even that MS was much quicker, team put him behind Nico.

Edited by ivand911, 16 April 2011 - 07:52.


#9243 Skanka

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 07:52

His qualifying pace is not as bad as that. Circumstances made things more difficult for him in qualifying this year with DRS problems and today with a red flag at the worst possible moment.

Rosberg has always been able to extract the most out of the car in qualifying. Nothing new here. But Schumacher is certainly a lot more closer than he's been in the first three qualifying sessions this year compared to Rosberg. Even if (as it will probably happen) he's going to get most of the time behind Rosberg in qualifying this year, I expect the gap to be a lot less than that. Of course sending the cars earlier for their last run Q2 would probably help.

#9244 SEP

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:02

How many races team and Michael supported him only to get P7 in WCC at the end? How many time he was ahead of him and team put MS behind Nico? In Brasil MS let him pass twice. Japan even that MS was much quicker, team put him behind Nico.


and in all the other races Nico beat MS EASILLY.

Time to open your eyes. MGP is not a great car, but certainly is much better than MS s fan think. Nico is a very good driver, but not on Alonso s, Lewis or Vettel s level.

#9245 ivand911

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:08

and in all the other races Nico beat MS EASILLY.
Time to open your eyes. MGP is not a great car, but certainly is much better than MS s fan think. Nico is a very good driver, but not on Alonso s, Lewis or Vettel s level.

Which exactly? Not more than in 2-3 races. But, there was Spain too. For the guys like you we have to wish that Nico will not do well tomorrow? Lets first finish the race, and to speak later.


#9246 Nivra

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:16

Indeed its time to walk away. Mercedes will never be a top tier team. I think he should just say enough is enough. He still has the speed but Mercedes was not the team for him.


Why blame Mercedes for Schumi's performance??

Maybe Mercedes will never be a top tier team because of MSC being in the team. He wasn't brought in to be trounced by Rosberg since last year... but to take a decent Mercedes car with big budget to a higher level!!

Mercedes over-estimated Msc... and they are suffering for it.

Another reason why Mercedes is not being able to get ahead is because a certain Schumi is 'sucking' close to $$$$12 Million$$$$ from their Kitty.

They would have been better off hiring Di Resta or any other young, hungry, talented and motivated Driver and used those extra $$$$ in hiring & paying brilliant technicians or used it in development.

Shumi and Rubens Barrichello are parasites to formula one at the moment.... they are hindering new drivers to come into Formula 1 because they refuse to retire even with shady performances and yet taking money out of the the Teams Pocket for it. This in turn is forcing young talented racers wanting to come into the sport being reduced to 'Pay Drivers' and lack of good seats in good teams because these oldies have thick heads. :mad:

#9247 Raelene

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:21

where's the $12m from - I thought it was close to $4m. Also I was under the impression that the only reason they got the Petrobas sponsorship was because they signed Schumacher..

#9248 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:27

Why blame Mercedes for Schumi's performance??

Maybe Mercedes will never be a top tier team because of MSC being in the team. He wasn't brought in to be trounced by Rosberg since last year... but to take a decent Mercedes car with big budget to a higher level!!

Mercedes over-estimated Msc... and they are suffering for it.

Another reason why Mercedes is not being able to get ahead is because a certain Schumi is 'sucking' close to $$$$12 Million$$$$ from their Kitty.

They would have been better off hiring Di Resta or any other young, hungry, talented and motivated Driver and used those extra $$$$ in hiring & paying brilliant technicians or used it in development.

Shumi and Rubens Barrichello are parasites to formula one at the moment.... they are hindering new drivers to come into Formula 1 because they refuse to retire even with shady performances and yet taking money out of the the Teams Pocket for it. This in turn is forcing young talented racers wanting to come into the sport being reduced to 'Pay Drivers' and lack of good seats in good teams because these oldies have thick heads. :mad:


Hahha classic trolling.

MS brings nothing to the team? How about a PROVEN racing pedigree? The most successful driver EVER? 91 wins, 7 titles, 150+ podium finishes....etc

When they were both signed up, Nico had ONE podium to his name and proved incapable of being a team leader at Williams.

Perhaps Nico cannot help develop a car properly......? He has no history of success while Schumacher is covered in glory. Its more than luck, friend.


#9249 schufan

schufan
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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:29

If MGP was a good car all along why did both the drivers had a hard time keeping likes of STR and Force India behind them in the last race? They have themselves admitted having issues with DRS,overheating ,Tyres or whatever havent they?I am not convinced that they have solved all the problems, Its just that maybe china seems to be suiting them better with the colder tempratures.We will have to wait for a few more races to see that.

Sure Michael isn't back to his old self completely but everyone is underestimating him immensely and treating him like a bad rookie.Rosberg is certainly faster then MS here but you cant blame MS for the qualifying issues he has had in the first two races.
mercedes should send out the drivers a bit early from next qualifying onwards.


lol at the above "merc cant succeed due to schumi post" :rotfl:

Edited by schufan, 16 April 2011 - 08:32.


#9250 Nivra

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:35

where's the m from - I thought it was close to m. Also I was under the impression that the only reason they got the Petrobas sponsorship was because they signed Schumacher..

I think paying $4mil to a younger, hungrier driver would be much better for the sport of Formula 1 and fans than seeing an old engine chug away without adding much to the spectacle. He is past, and should have remained there instead of blocking a good seat for a much more talented, faster youngster to show off his class... a la Kobayashi, Di Resta, Perez and many more.

He's living his dream, but formula 1 is not around to fulfill someone's whims and desires to be in the sport. He's been awful, and he's being just plain old greedy for Formula 1 high life.