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#9251 Nivra

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:40

Hahha classic trolling.

MS brings nothing to the team? How about a PROVEN racing pedigree? The most successful driver EVER? 91 wins, 7 titles, 150+ podium finishes....etc

When they were both signed up, Nico had ONE podium to his name and proved incapable of being a team leader at Williams.

Perhaps Nico cannot help develop a car properly......? He has no history of success while Schumacher is covered in glory. Its more than luck, friend.


Talk about living in the past. Geez.

If i wanted to live in the past, I would be watching races from the 80's and 90's on my DVD.... not on Sundays of 2011!!

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#9252 Raelene

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:43

I think paying $4mil to a younger, hungrier driver would be much better for the sport of Formula 1 and fans than seeing an old engine chug away without adding much to the spectacle. He is past, and should have remained there instead of blocking a good seat for a much more talented, faster youngster to show off his class... a la Kobayashi, Di Resta, Perez and many more.

He's living his dream, but formula 1 is not around to fulfill someone's whims and desires to be in the sport. He's been awful, and he's being just plain old greedy for Formula 1 high life.



and how much spnsorship could a younger driver attract compared to MS??? I see you've dropped your $12m claim. do you think Petronas would have bought more than MS's salary?

#9253 schufan

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:46

Its not called Greedy its called passion and not only him all the f1 drivers are guilty of it : ). I dont think you would find any other driver currently hungrier for F1 tbh then MS.If he wasnt "hungry" as you call it he would not have risked his reputation and come back.



#9254 Nivra

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 08:53

and how much spnsorship could a younger driver attract compared to MS??? I see you've dropped your m claim. do you think Petronas would have bought more than MS's salary?


Yeah... maybe so!! And what are the sponsors getting in return.... absolute bullocks. LOL

They hired him to win races.... not drive around mid-field. And anyways, i don't see how the sponsors are getting back any returns... in fact they may even be ruing the deal now.

Also, all these still doesn't hide the fact that both he and Rubens are blocking good racing seats being driven by better, hungrier and much more talented young drivers around in 2011. Schumi is eating money based on past glories.... he's old and very slow now. He should retire as simple as that. I surely don't want him to be making a fool of himself in F1 competing against young drivers till he is 50 years old.

Respect to Schumi for all his achievements... but that doesn't save him from being criticized in 2010/2011. If he is in Formula 1 currently, he should be open criticism.

#9255 ivand911

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:01

Respect to Schumi for all his achievements... but that doesn't save him from being criticized in 2010/2011. If he is in Formula 1 currently, he should be open criticism.

And he is. Next. He receive 8 million euro from the team.


#9256 ali.unal

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:02

Schumacher: "I didn't quite get my lap together in Q2 and since then we have found out that my rear wing was not functioning correctly as I was braking into Turn 14."

That explains the slide.

Edited by ali.unal, 16 April 2011 - 09:03.


#9257 SeanValen

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:10

What is it with MS and China,

China 2004, I believe he spun off the track in qualifying because he knew it was going to be tight with Rubens or was it just a mistake, either way I know he wasn't looking forward to the track,

2005-bad year for ferrari, what is worst is driving a bad ferrari at your worst track-he didn't make the startline and crashed the car into a rookie by mistake, but the impression was, he knew the race wasn't going to me much better

2006-hats off, great drive in the rain, and his best ferrari performance in the china race

Michael has only had 2 ferrari's of winning material at 2 gps, he won one of the races in the rain in his last season, very well, one of his best, and the other race was messy in 2004 due to one lap qualifying and getting it wrong, and charging thru field with ill effect

So his strike rate for China with a winning car is 50/50, which is good, but
look at
2004-one lap qualifying, crash out, back of the grid
1005-crashed the car before the race started
2010-a combination of early races after retirement with a damaged chassic on not his favorite track=1 second off the pace=everyone calling for him to quit
the next race after Spain, he was suddenly the old Schumacher/at turkey and Monaco as well,
2011-respectable in all sessions until Q2, race to run

Messy affair his China record, but where there was brilliance in 2006 in the rain, after races like 2005/2010/2011-which so far is just qualifying, there is a fashion trend after China to go after Schumacher, he's raced there 3 times not including the race coming up, and in two occassions he's had a winning car and won one of them, it's not a bad record to have for your worst track to win on it in the rain.

He's had such a good run at other tracks which makes everything else seem the odd one like China, but it's still infact better then alot of other drivers still, even at his worst track,



Schumacher: "I didn't quite get my lap together in Q2 and since then we have found out that my rear wing was not functioning correctly as I was braking into Turn 14."

That explains the slide.



Albert Park+China then, car not working well in qualifying, at least it's at his less favoured tracks, but still bad on mercedes part, this sort of issue effected his results at Japan and Suzula last year with F duct not working.

Edited by SeanValen, 16 April 2011 - 09:13.


#9258 arknor

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:11

Another reason why Mercedes is not being able to get ahead is because a certain Schumi is 'sucking' close to $$$$12 Million$$$$ from their Kitty.


you realise the majority of sponsors on the car will only have been signed because they heard schumacher was coming back and wanted to be asociated with the most succesful driver in f1 history...

he will bring the team much more than those 12mil EUROS.... f1 does not worth in $

#9259 Spa95

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:13

#F1 Interesting observation from ex-F1 driver Eric van de Poele who told me Schumacher braking way later than anyone at T1 yesterday


http://twitter.com/a...094181179699200

:stoned: :clap:

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#9260 Diablobb81

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:18

I'm not the most technical guy, but : is it imaginable that the DRS problem could be related to Michael's driving style?

Edited by Diablobb81, 16 April 2011 - 09:18.


#9261 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:38

Yeah... maybe so!! And what are the sponsors getting in return.... absolute bullocks. LOL

They hired him to win races.... not drive around mid-field. And anyways, i don't see how the sponsors are getting back any returns... in fact they may even be ruing the deal now.


They sponsored Mercedes to win races, not just Schumacher. The team won the WDC and WCC in 2009 so expectations were high. Infact, Brawn made a £98,000,000 profit in 2009.

Also, all these still doesn't hide the fact that both he and Rubens are blocking good racing seats being driven by better, hungrier and much more talented young drivers around in 2011. Schumi is eating money based on past glories.... he's old and very slow now.

He's within 1-3ths of Rosberg in qualifying and consistent in the races. Unless Rosberg is the slowest driver out there, Schumacher deserves his place out there on pure merit.

He should retire as simple as that. I surely don't want him to be making a fool of himself in F1 competing against young drivers till he is 50 years old.

I 100% agree. He has lost his edge but is still fast enough for F1 in my opinion. If the team is a flop this year - and I suspect they will be - he won't see out his 3 year contract. Infact, Rosberg will probably go too. Neither are deserving of a poor car. At least Schumacher has achieved everything in F1 and made $1bn. Rosberg deserves better and it would be a shame for him to waste his prime years in a second tier car.



Respect to Schumi for all his achievements... but that doesn't save him from being criticized in 2010/2011. If he is in Formula 1 currently, he should be open criticism.

I agree. If it was 100% lopsided in Nico's favour, MS would himself retire. The fact that there isn't THAT much between them (note the gap between Liuzzi and Karthakain for example) leads me to believe that Schumacher isn't old, washed up, shot-to-pieces ala Muhammad Ali fighting Leon Spinks WAYYYYYYYY past his health and prime.



#9262 rog

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:41

I'm not the most technical guy, but : is it imaginable that the DRS problem could be related to Michael's driving style?


I don't know but it could be also a setup issue, would be interesting to know if both using different setups (rear suspension stiffness and so on)

#9263 ivand911

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:58

I don't know but it could be also a setup issue, would be interesting to know if both using different setups (rear suspension stiffness and so on)

Will see tomorrow I guess. Michael never reach 41,4 for the third sector like in FP3. Best time from Michael sectors was 1:35.437 ,good for 7th place(I guess with new tires in Q3 he will beat this time). It was just case for not good Qualy strategy, for not having enough time to rectify arising problem. There is 0,6 sec in the last sector only. I doubt this will be the case if Michael did lap with new softs like Nico in Q3. In first sectors they were very close.
http://www.fia.com/e...ing-sectors.pdf
His lap from Q1 was enough for Q2 and Q3. :rolleyes:
http://www.fia.com/e...ssification.pdf

Edited by ivand911, 16 April 2011 - 10:20.


#9264 baddog

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 11:17

Okay if the DRS closes with the brakes, and MS brakes later, and the merc drs takes too long to reattach... then that would really make sense, and it would put the onus firmly on the team to bloody fix it. Cant ask a driver to change the fundamental of their driving style I think.

#9265 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 12:30

Shows the speed is there but good fortune, errors and reliability are not favouring Schumacher this year so far.



#9266 JVi

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 12:38

TAD CZAPSKI - is he missing this year? Launch control; traction control; rear-wheel brake steering. Now the DRS is not working? What a shame for such a great car control builder who has gone out of his way to help the poor disabled car driver. What comes around, goes around.

Edited by JVi, 16 April 2011 - 12:41.


#9267 Nivra

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 14:20


hey, good to see sensible reply or replies to the current Schumi issue that I had posted earlier. :up:

Overall, I stand by my issues about Oldies Schumi & Rubens hogging F1's race seats... because of which Two more young talented drivers haven't gotten a chance to race in 2011. F1 could have been currently blessed with two more exciting new talents similar to Kobayashi, Di Resta, Sutil & Perez.

New drivers and talents bring new fans and excitement into Formula 1.... whereas the two ex-Ferrari No.1 & No.2 are living and hogging F1 space & money based on past glories.
Not Good at all, especially considering that the two gentlemen are getting paid for it, while good young talents are being reduced to "pay drivers". :mad: :down:

Edited by Nivra, 16 April 2011 - 14:32.


#9268 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 14:53

His image is bringing more sponsors than any pay driver could so that's not an argument.

young talented drivers find their way into the sport. see kobayashi, see di resta who looks pretty fast, hamilton now looks like he's been here for quite a while etc

mabe you could use your hating energy to something more productive..

#9269 SlateGray

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 15:10

Quick question:

What if the former champion in the second year of a comeback with Mercedes Benz was still being soundly schooled by a win less teammate, all excuses now exhausted, fans grasping at straws seeking the ever diminishing silver lining, what if that former World Driving Champion was named Jacques Villeneuve what would the fans be saying and in particular what would the Schumacher fans be saying of Villeneuve if he was making a mess of everything like Schumacher currently is? :)

#9270 TURU

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 15:15

I find it hard to believe that they have so many issues with DRS, KERS, whatever on Michael's car and yet everything seems to work just fine on Rosberg's car. I'm not buying this anymore. Haug and Brawn are covering Schumacher's a**.

#9271 Augurk

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 15:16

I find it hard to believe that they have so many issues with DRS, KERS, whatever on Michael's car and yet everything seems to work just fine on Rosberg's car. I'm not buying this anymore. Haug and Brawn are covering Schumacher's a**.

Did you see the onboards? In turn 14 he was obviously missing rear end downforce. It wasn't brake locking at all.

#9272 Zakiruz

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 15:24

Wow, some of you need to relax, what is up with the large amount of knee jerk reactions.

Race hasn't even happened and people are calling for his head.
IMO one thing for sure, tomorrow is going to be an awesome race, I enjoy seeing Schumi banzai the midfield at the start when he doesn't get hit by one of the STRs, along with Koba and Webber doing the same.

This is motorsport, obviously there is ups and downs for every team / driver.

#9273 arknor

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 15:28


hey, good to see sensible reply or replies to the current Schumi issue that I had posted earlier. :up:

Overall, I stand by my issues about Oldies Schumi & Rubens hogging F1's race seats... because of which Two more young talented drivers haven't gotten a chance to race in 2011. F1 could have been currently blessed with two more exciting new talents similar to Kobayashi, Di Resta, Sutil & Perez.

New drivers and talents bring new fans and excitement into Formula 1.... whereas the two ex-Ferrari No.1 & No.2 are living and hogging F1 space & money based on past glories.
Not Good at all, especially considering that the two gentlemen are getting paid for it, while good young talents are being reduced to "pay drivers". :mad: :down:

what ae you smoking? have u been watching f1 for more than a few years because i dont think you have...

i dont know why everyone is so concerned with finding the youngest driver they can its a new thing it never used to be like that all..

schumacher was also a pay driver for his first race if you didnt realise, also when schumacher goes to the karting events the other f1 drivers attent who usually wins?

#9274 Massa_f1

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 15:38

Schumacher just can not and i doubt ever will be able to be at one with this Mercedes car. Has he ever had the car set up to his liking? Rosberg drives it so smooth. When Schumacher drives it does nothing he wants it to and you can always tell from the inside and outside camera shots. He looked on it in winter testing videos as smooth and quick round corners as Vettel which gave me hope. Now i admit he just cant bring it to a race weekend. I am a big Schumacher fan and as much as i would miss him its time to go. Getting beat of Rosberg every week is stupid especially as the guy has never won nor likely to win a GP any time soon.

Edited by Massa_f1, 16 April 2011 - 15:40.


#9275 ivand911

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 15:41

what ae you smoking? have u been watching f1 for more than a few years because i dont think you have...

i dont know why everyone is so concerned with finding the youngest driver they can its a new thing it never used to be like that all..

schumacher was also a pay driver for his first race if you didnt realise, also when schumacher goes to the karting events the other f1 drivers attent who usually wins?

I guess you mean Nivra poster? Because the way you quote it looks like you answer to Ferrari_F1_fan_2001?


#9276 arknor

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 16:08

I guess you mean Nivra poster? Because the way you quote it looks like you answer to Ferrari_F1_fan_2001?

yea the forum was whining about an open qoute tag so i just deleted the first one which was nivra

#9277 SEP

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 16:27

Quick question:

What if the former champion in the second year of a comeback with Mercedes Benz was still being soundly schooled by a win less teammate, all excuses now exhausted, fans grasping at straws seeking the ever diminishing silver lining, what if that former World Driving Champion was named Jacques Villeneuve what would the fans be saying and in particular what would the Schumacher fans be saying of Villeneuve if he was making a mess of everything like Schumacher currently is? :)



I also have a question for you.

What if MS comeback was, due to a fantastic marketing investment, in a RBR?
Assuming he would have the exact same speed he has today - wich, IMO, is exactly the same as in 1991-2006- AND a number one status (a la Ferrari), he would have finished last year in 2nd or 3rd in the c table "after an epic batlle against a much stronger Ferrari and a superior Mclaren".

My answer:

that would be a "proof" that MS belongs to the greatest drivers Of all time

This year, MS would be leading the WDC and mostly likely would take his 8th title and finally retire as the biggest name in sports. Ever.

A shame his second career wasn't a marketing game as his first one.

Edited by SEP, 16 April 2011 - 16:30.


#9278 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 16:29

People on here have a habit of going OTT when Schumacher does badly. When he does well everything goes quiet.

Seems to me that people are just looking for an excuse to hate.....

#9279 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 16:32

I also have a question for you.

What if MS comeback was, due to a fantastic marketing investment, in a RBR?
Assuming he would have the exact same speed he has today - wich, IMO, is exactly the same as in 1991-2006- AND a number one status (a la Ferrari), he would have finished last year in 2nd or 3rd in the c table "after an epic batlle against a much stronger Ferrari and a superior Mclaren".

My answer:

that would be a "proof" that MS belongs to the greatest drivers Of all time

This year, MS would be leading the WDC and mostly likely would take his 8th title and finally retire as the biggest name in sports. Ever.

A shame his second career wasn't a marketing game as his first one.


A shame that he is driving a Honda in what is - and always will be - a second tier team who got lucky ONCE.

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#9280 thrillercd

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 17:25

People on here have a habit of going OTT when Schumacher does badly. When he does well everything goes quiet.

Seems to me that people are just looking for an excuse to hate.....


They have some serious problem in real life.

#9281 SlateGray

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 17:26

I also have a question for you.
What if MS comeback was, due to a fantastic marketing investment, in a RBR?


I will answer your question even though you did not do me the courtesy of answering my question.

If you are asking what would be happening if Schumacher was in the Red Bull along side current champion SV?
Schumacher would be making a dogs breakfast of it just as he is at MB. SV would be spanking him soundly.

Now I ask you again change WDC Villeneuve with Multi WDC Schumacher in the MB for the past season and a bit, with Villeneuve duplicating Schumacher's record , what would the Schumacher fans be making of Villeneuve's comeback performance? If it was Villeneuve in place of Schumacher? Be honest!
:)


#9282 sharo

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 17:49

People on here have a habit of going OTT when Schumacher does badly. When he does well everything goes quiet.

Seems to me that people are just looking for an excuse to hate.....

Yes, Mark Webber didn't manage even into Q2 and yet no one doubts he had issues with his car. Some try to find a conspiracy against him by his team. But no one says he can't drive anymore, getting old, must leave and so on.

#9283 vovelo

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 17:52

A shame his second career wasn't a marketing game as his first one.

yeah, it was very good marketing game for first career :rotfl:
to be in 92' WDC standing in front of famous A.Senna after first compete season in F1 with first f1 victory on board . it's just marketing nothing else :rotfl:
Some TV-channels are still waiting you as "F1-experte" :rotfl:

Edited by vovelo, 16 April 2011 - 18:40.


#9284 Tardis40

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 17:54

WTF does Villeneuve have to do with anything? He won one title and a handful of races. He lucked one in at time when there was no competition. The rest of his career was garbage. You can't mention Villeneuve and Schumacher in the same breath.



#9285 Massa_f1

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 17:56

A shame his second career wasn't a marketing game as his first one.



:rotfl: pathetic He won 7 Championships deal with it.

#9286 BRK

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 18:55

There seems to be something very wrong in here as I thought I saw what looked like a couple of trolls arguing with each other on my way down. :confused: Shouldn't you guys be bashing Schumacher or something?


Anyway. On Villeneuve's 'comeback' performances: I would say a driver that was such an utter failure even in his first career in a dog of a car - would set new lows for driving standards if he, like Michael, returned to drive a dog of a car way past his prime. Plain and simple.

#9287 Birelman

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 19:01

yeah, it was very good marketing game for first career :rotfl:
to be in 92' WDC standing in front of famous A.Senna after first compete season in F1 with first f1 victory on board . it's just marketing nothing else :rotfl:
Some TV-channels are still waiting you as "F1-experte" :rotfl:

Well, if he had arrived into F1 in a Minardi he wouldn't have won a GP in 92, so, what's your point? He was driving a car capable of stealing the odd race at that point, and he duly delivered....

By now the theory that MS could have won all his Championships regardless of what he would have been driving has been put to rest. I'm not going to say ALL his success is ONLY due to the circumstances around him at the time of his career (I mean, lets get real) but, a lot of his success would not have been possible in other circumstances.

#9288 Tarun

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 19:30

I am a very big fan of Schumi and after today's qualification I have started fearing that will he ever come back :(

He was not the person who use to give excuses but was the one with the lap time, Roseberg almost always over powers him in the qualification, I am disheartened :(

#9289 SEP

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 19:44

I will answer your question even though you did not do me the courtesy of answering my question.

If you are asking what would be happening if Schumacher was in the Red Bull along side current champion SV?
Schumacher would be making a dogs breakfast of it just as he is at MB. SV would be spanking him soundly.

Now I ask you again change WDC Villeneuve with Multi WDC Schumacher in the MB for the past season and a bit, with Villeneuve duplicating Schumacher's record , what would the Schumacher fans be making of Villeneuve's comeback performance? If it was Villeneuve in place of Schumacher? Be honest!
:)


sorry, i didnt answer cause it was too obvious. People would say JV was a farse. The most overated driver ever

again, what i meant about MS in a RBR, i was talking about Mark as his teamate, not Vettel! Besides, MS had a "Ferrari number one status", just in case...


Edited by SEP, 16 April 2011 - 20:17.


#9290 Group B

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 19:59

I am a very big fan of Schumi and after today's qualification I have started fearing that will he ever come back :(

He was not the person who use to give excuses but was the one with the lap time, Roseberg almost always over powers him in the qualification, I am disheartened :(

Michael was past his best by 2003/4, gradually declining through 2006. Another 5 years was only ever going to work one way. Personally I think he's still plenty good enough for his seat, so as long as he's enjoying it then carry on. It's just a bit sad for those of us who remember the monster of 15 years ago.

#9291 jj2728

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 21:54

WTF does Villeneuve have to do with anything? He won one title and a handful of races. He lucked one in at time when there was no competition. The rest of his career was garbage. You can't mention Villeneuve and Schumacher in the same breath.


Oh really? What about an Indy 500 win and CART championship? I'm no big fan of Villenueve, but you'd better check up on your facts before getting your knickers in a twist.

#9292 jj2728

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 21:56

Anyway. On Villeneuve's 'comeback' performances: I would say a driver that was such an utter failure even in his first career in a dog of a car - would set new lows for driving standards if he, like Michael, returned to drive a dog of a car way past his prime. Plain and simple.


Which first career are you referring to?

#9293 SEP

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 22:08

WTF does Villeneuve have to do with anything? He won one title and a handful of races. He lucked one in at time when there was no competition. The rest of his career was garbage. You can't mention Villeneuve and Schumacher in the same breath.



JV and MS are about the same in terms of talent, besides I have seen some people here mentining Schumacher and Senna in the same breath, so there s no limit for "strange" opinions...

#9294 ClubmanGT

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 22:08

Oh really? What about an Indy 500 win and CART championship? I'm no big fan of Villenueve, but you'd better check up on your facts before getting your knickers in a twist.


Michael Andretti was a very accomplished driver in the US. You have to admit that Villenueve walked into a dominant team and was nowhere when they weren't anywhere.

#9295 baddog

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 22:17

JV and MS are about the same in terms of talent, besides I have seen some people here mentining Schumacher and Senna in the same breath, so there s no limit for "strange" opinions...

Ah you are one of THOSE. thanks for the heads-up

JV has plenty of bravery and decent speed, and thinks on his feet. Always did. He has never actually shown that he is in the very top rank though, I mean Indy and CART? Is anyone seriously suggesting that any top F1 driver could not win in those tier 2 categories?

Schumacher and Senna are mentioned in the same breath, along with all the other truly great drivers, by a huge variety of people. This is because they belong in the same breath.

#9296 dav115

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 22:58

I am a very big fan of Schumi and after today's qualification I have started fearing that will he ever come back :(

He was not the person who use to give excuses but was the one with the lap time, Roseberg almost always over powers him in the qualification, I am disheartened :(

To be fair, from our German friends on this board it sounds like in his RTL interview straight after qualy he was more than happy to admit to making a mistake himself, HOWEVER following the debriefing after qualy they obviously saw data indicating a DRS failure in turn 14 on his final Q2 run. I don't believe he would admit straight away to making a mistake himself and then change the story to a DRS failure for no reason a couple of hours later, unless new evidence supporting the latter reason came to light.

Edited by dav115, 16 April 2011 - 23:40.


#9297 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:39

JV and MS are about the same in terms of talent

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
what on earth are you on dude?

#9298 FenderJaguar

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:42

I'd say JV was far more talented than MS. The thing is that talented people don't care as much as not so talented people. The not so talented do a lot more of training, testing, trying to find the edge in all the other ways - and that is where MS used to be successful. MS was never as talented as drivers like JV.

#9299 ashnathan

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:43

Michael misses traction control, simple.

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#9300 ashnathan

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:44

I'd say JV was far more talented than MS. The thing is that talented people don't care as much as not so talented people. The not so talented do a lot more of training, testing, trying to find the edge in all the other ways - and that is where MS used to be successful. MS was never as talented as drivers like JV.

That's a bit unfair, i'd say Naturally talented, rather than soley talented.