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#9301 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:45

so if you win you are not talented because you worked hard but if you're sh!t it's because you're talented and you don't care?

come on..jacques was a decent driver but that's about it. nothing extra special in him. his career results prove that.
people forget he almost managed to lose the 1997 title in a dominant wiliams

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#9302 FenderJaguar

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:46

Yes it might be unfair. Schumacher had a lot of talent, but his main talent was his will to win at any cost. JV had loads of talent and was lazy.

#9303 FenderJaguar

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:49

I am talking natural TALENT. Not results. JV wrapped up the CART-championship when it was almost as competetive as F1, won the Indy500 and put his Williams on pole in his first try and won the WDC the year after. That is natural talent. Then he got lazy.

Schumacher's "talent" was training, training and training. This is very common in the world of sports. The most talented don't have to fight as hard so when they reach a lot of competition they might not get the results that people who have learned how to work hard do.

#9304 ashnathan

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:54

Kimi Raikkonen.

#9305 baddog

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 23:59

I am talking natural TALENT. Not results. JV wrapped up the CART-championship when it was almost as competetive as F1, won the Indy500 and put his Williams on pole in his first try and won the WDC the year after. That is natural talent. Then he got lazy.

Oh of course, and who did he beat to win that CART champ and Indy? CART was never at F1 standards, even in its actual glory days (10-5 years before Jacques)

As for Williams, it is very very hard to judge a driver who walked into the best car on the grid, with acres of pre-season testing, alongside a solid but unspectacular driver. Only Hamilton ever got such a start in F1, and he had a much better teammate.

Jacques WAS a gifted driver, and may have been capable of being fantastic, but nothing in his career really proves that.

#9306 engel

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:02

JV had talent, not spectacular talent but he was solid enough to win a couple more championships had he made smarter business decisions.

#9307 FenderJaguar

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:06

CART around 94-95 was more competetive than F1. I know this is difficult to understand since most of you grew up watching F1 races where you had to sit in a Ferrari or a McLaren to win and watched 4 drivers - sorry - 1 driver from Ferrari and 1 driver from McLaren fighting it out who was the greatest driver in the world.

#9308 engel

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:10

CART around 94-95 was more competetive than F1. I know this is difficult to understand since most of you grew up watching F1 races where you had to sit in a Ferrari or a McLaren to win and watched 4 drivers - sorry - 1 driver from Ferrari and 1 driver from McLaren fighting it out who was the greatest driver in the world.



Oh comeon, CART was where old timers went to retire. Even Mario Andretti was racing CARTs in 94 :)

#9309 ashnathan

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:11

JV had talent, not spectacular talent but he was solid enough to win a couple more championships had he made smarter business decisions.

He was naturally gifted, and ruined his career with a move to BAR, and ruined it futher by not realising this and moving to another team. Had JV found himself at McLaren instead of lets say DC, who knows what would have happened. I try not to take much away from Michael, but he did love his traction control. All he had to do was get the nose in (characteristic he liked) and stomp on it and traction control would do the rest. I think that is one of his main issues at the moment and had he never retired I think the transition from traction control to no traction control in 2008 would have helped him rather than going from higher revving engines, grooved tyres and buckets of traction control, to narrower fronts, slicks, no traction control, and different aero philosophy all around.

#9310 dav115

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:21

He was naturally gifted, and ruined his career with a move to BAR, and ruined it futher by not realising this and moving to another team. Had JV found himself at McLaren instead of lets say DC, who knows what would have happened. I try not to take much away from Michael, but he did love his traction control. All he had to do was get the nose in (characteristic he liked) and stomp on it and traction control would do the rest. I think that is one of his main issues at the moment and had he never retired I think the transition from traction control to no traction control in 2008 would have helped him rather than going from higher revving engines, grooved tyres and buckets of traction control, to narrower fronts, slicks, no traction control, and different aero philosophy all around.

He raced without TC from 91-mid 93, and 94-mid 2001. Never seemed to have any problems then. Not to mention his stunning starts during the past year made without TC.

#9311 jj2728

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:50

Oh of course, and who did he beat to win that CART champ and Indy? CART was never at F1 standards, even in its actual glory days (10-5 years before Jacques)

As for Williams, it is very very hard to judge a driver who walked into the best car on the grid, with acres of pre-season testing, alongside a solid but unspectacular driver. Only Hamilton ever got such a start in F1, and he had a much better teammate.

Jacques WAS a gifted driver, and may have been capable of being fantastic, but nothing in his career really proves that.


What? Are you serious? CART was never at F1 standards? Please, learn a bit more about the history of CART and its drivers before you post something of which you know little about.
'Nothing in Jacques career proves that'....spoken like a true MS fanboy.....

#9312 jj2728

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:51

Oh comeon, CART was where old timers went to retire. Even Mario Andretti was racing CARTs in 94 :)

Yep, and that's where the 1992 WDC went to compete in 1993......... :rolleyes:

#9313 baddog

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:54

CART around 94-95 was more competetive than F1. I know this is difficult to understand since most of you grew up watching F1 races where you had to sit in a Ferrari or a McLaren to win and watched 4 drivers - sorry - 1 driver from Ferrari and 1 driver from McLaren fighting it out who was the greatest driver in the world.


Hilarious. There are local club saloon races that are 'more competitive' than F1, because less is required in order to be able to compete. Just like CART compared to F1. It never was equivalent in QUALITY, and was past its peak by 94-5.

#9314 baddog

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 00:59

What? Are you serious? CART was never at F1 standards? Please, learn a bit more about the history of CART and its drivers before you post something of which you know little about.
'Nothing in Jacques career proves that'....spoken like a true MS fanboy.....

I'm sorry, nothing in Jacques career proves that he was more than a very gifted (not more gifted than MS, but gifted) driver who took his opportunities and made a lot of them for a time, but ultimately failed to step up past that one WDC in a superb car. (Can you really think that Senna, Schumacher, even Alonso would not have wrapped that one up by 2/3rds of the season??)

I mean is that not enough for his fans? That he got championships in multiple series, that he won races at the highest level? He also has to be (in some special way that makes him 'better') more 'talented' than others?

Well its bullcrap. The old 'Most talented but got beaten by lesser drivers who worked harder' schtick is the same bullshit it always was.. its a way to make yourselves feel better about a letdown from someone you liked because he was 'cool' and you thought cool = gifted because some gifted people were cool.

#9315 jj2728

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 01:16

I'm sorry, nothing in Jacques career proves that he was more than a very gifted (not more gifted than MS, but gifted) driver who took his opportunities and made a lot of them for a time, but ultimately failed to step up past that one WDC in a superb car. (Can you really think that Senna, Schumacher, even Alonso would not have wrapped that one up by 2/3rds of the season??)

I mean is that not enough for his fans? That he got championships in multiple series, that he won races at the highest level? He also has to be (in some special way that makes him 'better') more 'talented' than others?

Well its bullcrap. The old 'Most talented but got beaten by lesser drivers who worked harder' schtick is the same bullshit it always was.. its a way to make yourselves feel better about a letdown from someone you liked because he was 'cool' and you thought cool = gifted because some gifted people were cool.


Where does one begin to respond to a post like this except to say that, ignorance is bliss.....

#9316 baddog

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 01:23

Where does one begin to respond to a post like this except to say that, ignorance is bliss.....

Well, its probably all you have got.

At least your other posts make sense now.

#9317 jj2728

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 01:37

Well, its probably all you have got.

At least your other posts make sense now.

I KNEW it was only a matter of a few minutes before you responded...way too easy. The thing of it is, you MS fans refuse to acknowledge that before and after him there were other drivers just as good if not better than he.....and it must hurt...it really must, because I wonder what you will do when he retires for good.....

#9318 baddog

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 02:03

I KNEW it was only a matter of a few minutes before you responded...way too easy. The thing of it is, you MS fans refuse to acknowledge that before and after him there were other drivers just as good if not better than he.....and it must hurt...it really must, because I wonder what you will do when he retires for good.....


Ah the old 'Haha I trolled you' routine? You are on form today..

As for hurt? You kid right? There are maybe 12-20 drivers who form the pantheon of F1 gods. MS is one of them in any rational list. I would never ever venture to put them in order. I even think we may see the emergence of 2 new members in the coming few years. So much for that 'point' of yours.

Jacques just isnt one of them. And THAT hurts some people badly, the fact that no matter how they shout the world just doesn't see what they see. Hint: If the rest of the world seems to have a crazy view compared to yours, its likely not the world that is crazy.

When MS retires I will go on as before, since I was a young child in the 70s..I will be watching every race and appreciating skill where I see it. Cant see a sport with Hamilton and Vettel in it getting dull any time soon..

#9319 Dolph

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 04:22

By now the theory that MS could have won all his Championships regardless of what he would have been driving has been put to rest.


1996 or 2005 didn't do it for you?

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#9320 Dolph

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 04:24

CART around 94-95 was more competetive than F1. I know this is difficult to understand since most of you grew up watching F1 races where you had to sit in a Ferrari or a McLaren to win and watched 4 drivers - sorry - 1 driver from Ferrari and 1 driver from McLaren fighting it out who was the greatest driver in the world.


Michael Andretti and Nigel Mansell beg to differ.

#9321 Birelman

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 04:26

1996 or 2005 didn't do it for you?

I said win championships, at least in my dimension MS didn't win the 96, or 05 titles, but hey, I believe in string theory, so, maybe in a parallel universe he did :)

The strangest thing about what you said was 05, which is weird to me as, Schumacher only won the USGP in 05, and we all know why, not really a win, is it?

With the exception of 95, MS won all his Chships in "the car to have" and "the car to have" doesn't necessarily mean the fastest car. and 95 wasn't that far off in any sense, close enough so that his driving would be enough to overcome the car deficit he had against drivers like Hill, and (2nd year) Coulthard. Had that been someone like Hakkinen driving the 95 Williams, I wouldn't bet the house on MS winning in 95.

Edited by Birelman, 17 April 2011 - 04:33.


#9322 baddog

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 05:25

With the exception of 95, MS won all his Chships in "the car to have" and "the car to have" doesn't necessarily mean the fastest car. and 95 wasn't that far off in any sense, close enough so that his driving would be enough to overcome the car deficit he had against drivers like Hill, and (2nd year) Coulthard. Had that been someone like Hakkinen driving the 95 Williams, I wouldn't bet the house on MS winning in 95.

And it is considered, by you, to be 'the car to have' because he won the championship in it. In several cases of championship years there was no other reason to think that it was 'the car to have' at all. Certainly 3 of his championships were won in circumstances where the F1 world in general did not think he was in 'the car to have'. He also would have cantered to one more if he were in the car for the whole year.

If that achievement secured him the car to have for several seasons, in which he always won the WDC, then thats hardly a negative point against his name but simply to be expected.

#9323 Birelman

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 06:24

And it is considered, by you, to be 'the car to have' because he won the championship in it. In several cases of championship years there was no other reason to think that it was 'the car to have' at all. Certainly 3 of his championships were won in circumstances where the F1 world in general did not think he was in 'the car to have'. He also would have cantered to one more if he were in the car for the whole year.

If that achievement secured him the car to have for several seasons, in which he always won the WDC, then thats hardly a negative point against his name but simply to be expected.

It's just my opinion it was "the car to have" for many reasons that have little to do wit him winning the title. Like I said, the fastest car doesn't automatically make it "the car to have" Alonso's 2005 is an example where he was in the car to have while Raikkonen had the faster car.

Likewise, those 3 titles you, and others consider Schumacher won the title when he shouldn't have might be thought of that way because he wasn't in the fastest car, which brings me to my what I said earlier about "the car to have".

There is no guarantee that Schumacher would have won the 99 title had he completed the season, Hakkinen's results since that point can't really be used as the "what if" I hold the opinion that those results were greatly influenced by the fact that Schumacher wasn't there. Anyway, great drivers deliver when the opportunity arrives, and, the opportunity was presented to him many times, and he duly delivered, as he should. I think you may have misunderstood my point.

Edited by Birelman, 17 April 2011 - 06:25.


#9324 baddog

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 06:35

It's just my opinion it was "the car to have" for many reasons that have little to do wit him winning the title. Like I said, the fastest car doesn't automatically make it "the car to have" Alonso's 2005 is an example where he was in the car to have while Raikkonen had the faster car.

Likewise, those 3 titles you, and others consider Schumacher won the title when he shouldn't have might be thought of that way because he wasn't in the fastest car, which brings me to my what I said earlier about "the car to have".

There is no guarantee that Schumacher would have won the 99 title had he completed the season, Hakkinen's results since that point can't really be used as the "what if" I hold the opinion that those results were greatly influenced by the fact that Schumacher wasn't there. Anyway, great drivers deliver when the opportunity arrives, and, the opportunity was presented to him many times, and he duly delivered, as he should. I think you may have misunderstood my point.

Well its fair opinion though I greatly disagree with you specific cases.

As for 99, come on..


#9325 Birelman

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 06:41

Well its fair opinion though I greatly disagree with you specific cases.

As for 99, come on..

haha, hey!! That's why they're only our opinions!! :)

#9326 Sof1

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 07:08

Up 5 places to 9th in less than 1 lap. Genius!

#9327 Umpire

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 07:10

You can say all you want about MS, but I think there is no denying that over the last two years has been the best starter.

#9328 vovelo

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 08:57

Good race for Michael :up: Next time please do quali better for better race results :)

Edited by vovelo, 17 April 2011 - 08:59.


#9329 Diablobb81

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 08:58

Brilliant race. Best start, clean, quick overtakes, great defending, quick pitstops. I haven't seen one mistake. I only wish that he would have overtaken Alonso.

Edited by Diablobb81, 17 April 2011 - 08:59.


#9330 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:03

CART around 94-95 was more competetive than F1. I know this is difficult to understand since most of you grew up watching F1 races where you had to sit in a Ferrari or a McLaren to win and watched 4 drivers - sorry - 1 driver from Ferrari and 1 driver from McLaren fighting it out who was the greatest driver in the world.

it was closely matched and nice races, it looked competitive because of that
the level of talent in it was not top class though

#9331 schufan

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:03

Awsome race from Michael.Great start from him as usual.If Mercedes improves from here onwards pace and MS has a bit of luck with DRS in qualifying, podium is within reach. : )

#9332 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:05

Brilliant race. Best start, clean, quick overtakes, great defending, quick pitstops. I haven't seen one mistake. I only wish that he would have overtaken Alonso.

yes, the start was fantastic..5 positions in the 1st lap?

his overtake on petrov was quite good also...really enjoyed that move

#9333 ali.unal

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:16

Today I'm happier to see Michael racing that goog than to see that brilliant race!

#9334 Bonaventura

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:16

Mercedes GP :stoned:
Both drivers had too less fuel

#9335 Sof1

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:19

Great race from Schumi. Looking forward to Turkey. Schumi just needs to work on his Quali and it'll be a different ball game.

#9336 Tarzaan

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:28

Great Sunday performace for Schumi! Brillant start, good race performance. Shame for that quali :( With a Top10 grid position he could finish ahead of Rosberg again.

#9337 BRK

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:42

Brilliant drive towards the end. He was a bit slow in the first stint and then got stuck in a pretty hectic midfield battle with a dozen cars and Webber coming up from behind: that cost him a lot of time or he should ideally have been in a position to jump the two Ferraris. Nearly overtook the second Ferrari on the last lap.

All in all a good race and some valuable points.

#9338 ivand911

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:48

Will be there penalties? Alonso using his DRS in other places? Massa crossing white line.

Edited by ivand911, 17 April 2011 - 09:49.


#9339 BRK

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 09:53

I don't want to say I hope so but that sort of thing deserves a penalty, no matter what. Remains to be seen if the stewards are a sensible lot or just a bunch of old farts on the Ferrari payroll that have neither the capability nor the capacity to make consistent decisions.

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#9340 sharo

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 10:10

No matter of the final position I'm glad the old dog still has it :)

#9341 Tarzaan

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 10:52

I'm 100% sure if Schumi do the he would be penalized:



#9342 MCh000

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 11:56

Will be there penalties? Alonso using his DRS in other places? Massa crossing white line.


While I don't care about Massa's crossing line, the case of Alonso is really interesting. In Monaco Schumi was penalized for interpreting rules differently than FIA, even so FIA recognized it was possible to interpret rules so (but it was not how FIA wanted to interpret them and thought that this was against the spirit of the rules) and changed them after that.

And now we have a case where FIA wants drivers to use DRS only on one straight. And even if they fail to restrict the use on only one straight they don't want you to use it anywhere else as this would be against the spirit of the rules.

#9343 Tardis40

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 13:12

Michael was looking very good when the tires were newish. However, the dropoff was too soon and too severe. I don't know if the car is just eating up the tires too fast or maybe the balance is so delicate that the least change throws it off. It was a big improvement but there is still more to sort out.

Edited by Tardis40, 17 April 2011 - 13:13.


#9344 jj2728

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 14:15

And it is considered, by you, to be 'the car to have' because he won the championship in it. In several cases of championship years there was no other reason to think that it was 'the car to have' at all. Certainly 3 of his championships were won in circumstances where the F1 world in general did not think he was in 'the car to have'.


And what 3 championships were those that the "F1 world in general" did not think he was in the car to have?

#9345 sharo

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 15:31

Definitely 1994 Benetton, 2003 Ferrari
and maybe 2000 - first title with Ferrari.

#9346 Tarzaan

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 16:26

Definitely 1994 Benetton, 2003 Ferrari
and maybe 2000 - first title with Ferrari.


+B195

#9347 sharo

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 16:51

In 1995 he had a Renault powered Benetton and I don't count it as a weaker (not much at least) car.

#9348 Polle

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 16:55

One more lap and he would've had nando's sauce. Qualifying still peeves me off but it was awesome watching him race today. Hes really making a name for himself with those demon starts.

#9349 Rikhart

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 17:00

One more lap and he would've had nando's sauce. Qualifying still peeves me off but it was awesome watching him race today. Hes really making a name for himself with those demon starts.


I think his 7 world titles did the trick in the "name for himself" part.

#9350 George Costanza

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 18:50

In 1995 he had a Renault powered Benetton and I don't count it as a weaker (not much at least) car.


The 1995 car was inferior to the Williams on qualifying and (sometimes) racing trim.

I mean, the drivers, David and Damon just didn't get it going on the races.

Schu made the difference.