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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#9751 swiniodzik

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 13:54

It's clear that Schumacher is notoriously struggling in qualifying but his race pace is better. That suggest he's kept himself in great shape physically and the body isn't the problem, the brain is. Lauda said that when you're driving automatically you're quick but once you need to think about what you're doing a bit more, you're not gonna be as quick anymore as when things were coming naturally to you. It seems like Michael just doesn't have that automatic mental edge in him anymore that allowed him to pull off stuff like Hungary '98, but there's no shame in that. Actually, the average qualifying gap between team-mates at Mercedes last year was only a tenth of a second bigger than at McLaren, so not bad at all.

I agree with the poster who said that his biggest problem today seems to be his attitude. It seems as if he believes he can be a match for Rosberg in terms of raw speed despite the evidence for that just not being there, and as a result over-drives the car over a single lap and hence under-performs in qualifying and it's often a vicious cycle from there as he has to start from the midfield where usually most incidents happen. He should do what Prost did against Senna, accept that qualifying is a lost battle and focus on trying to out-race the faster youngster through some clever driving with the help of a good strategy, more race-oriented setup etc.

If he can do that, I think he could give the faster Rosberg a good fight in terms of points gathering. Sure, when the come-back was announced the expectations from both the outside and the man himself were much higher, but if at 42 he puts up a good fight against a highly-rated 25-year-old competitior near his prime, that would be very respectable and could only strengthen his legacy in the eyes of many.

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#9752 as65p

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 15:32

He should do what Prost did against Senna, accept that qualifying is a lost battle and focus on trying to out-race the faster youngster through some clever driving with the help of a good strategy, more race-oriented setup etc.


The ability to do that, like Prost to Senna, or Lauda earlier to Prost, or to an extent even Button to Hamilton, is a great and genereally undervalued asset. Frankly I don't see the slightest hint that Schumacher would ever be capable of it.

#9753 Bleu

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 16:50

Massa won 2 races, 3 poles and had 5 podiums in the Ferrari
against Fisis 1 win, 1 pole and 4 podiums.
Oh, yes the Ferrari/Bridgestone package was the one to have in 2006.


It was real two-phase season. Let's split the season into two halves and see how Ferrari and Renault drivers scored:

First nine races (Bahrain to Canada)
Alonso 84 (6 wins)
Schumacher 59 (2 wins)
Fisichella 37 (1 win)
Massa 28

Last nine races (USA to Brazil)
Schumacher 62 (5 wins)
Massa 52 (2 wins)
Alonso 50 (1 win)
Fisichella 35


#9754 Sakae

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 16:55

The ability to do that, like Prost to Senna, or Lauda earlier to Prost, or to an extent even Button to Hamilton, is a great and genereally undervalued asset. Frankly I don't see the slightest hint that Schumacher would ever be capable of it.

Michael through-out his career always was planning his race strategy as soon as he hit the track for FP. How you can make today a such claim as you did? Do you know actually anything about the man and his past?

Edited by Sakae, 11 May 2011 - 16:55.


#9755 Boxerevo

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 17:09

Michael through-out his career always was planning his race strategy as soon as he hit the track for FP. How you can make today a such claim as you did? Do you know actually anything about the man and his past?

Michael never was the slower one in the team.

Now he is the slower trying to beat the faster team mate,a new challenge about strategy.


#9756 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 17:47

I think his Q3 strategy have to be, one early stint to record good time. He will be much relax , when he know that he have chance for another stint, so less pressure. This is what Vettel and Webber,Lewis ,Alonso did the last time. It was right strategy. If his time is good he can save one set of tyres, if not he will make another stint, having good position already. I think better starting position for him is more important than one new set of soft tyres.

Edited by ivand911, 11 May 2011 - 17:49.


#9757 Sakae

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 17:58

If his car is sliding on the tarmack in turns, he has to get that fix, otherwise there is no racing per se for him.

#9758 Murdoch

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:04

I think his Q3 strategy have to be, one early stint to record good time. He will be much relax , when he know that he have chance for another stint, so less pressure. This is what Vettel and Webber,Lewis ,Alonso did the last time. It was right strategy. If his time is good he can save one set of tyres, if not he will make another stint, having good position already. I think better starting position for him is more important than one new set of soft tyres.


Do you think no one told him to set a good first time in Q3?

Do you think he wasn't trying to set a good time in Q3?

If only he 'tried' to get a good time. Can someone text or e-mail him? Is he on twitter? Someone needs to tell him before its too late.....

This thread is awesome!

#9759 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:08

Do you think no one told him to set a good first time in Q3?
Do you think he wasn't trying to set a good time in Q3?
If only he 'tried' to get a good time. Can someone text or e-mail him? Is he on twitter? Someone needs to tell him before its too late.....
This thread is awesome!

I am talking about early stint(to set a good first time) ,not in the end like they/he did. Apparently nobody tell him to set early good time, and to have time for another stint. So unfortunate that I don't know his email. :rotfl: And thread is about his problems too, because apparently he have some problems with one Q3 stint only. But, I don't see him reacting to this. From four drivers with late stint strategy only Nico preformed well; Michael ,Heidfeld and Massa blow it.

Edited by ivand911, 11 May 2011 - 18:22.


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#9760 BJHF1

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:11

Do you think no one told him to set a good first time in Q3?

Do you think he wasn't trying to set a good time in Q3?

If only he 'tried' to get a good time. Can someone text or e-mail him? Is he on twitter? Someone needs to tell him before its too late.....

This thread is awesome!


He's not saying it's an issue of trying or not - Rather that it could be an issue of performing under pressure (by waiting until the last minutes of Q3 to do his run).

On another note - It's really going to see by ineresting to see how Schumacher responds to the poor showing he had last weekend. I'm sure he will be putting himself under immense pressure to step his game up at the next race, as he probably feels as tough he's in a do or die situation, with the excuses running out and his team mate continuing to show his dominance (something Schumacher probably is probably having a hard time fathoming...which is good in a way).

Edited by BJHF1, 11 May 2011 - 18:19.


#9761 primer

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:17

Schumacher's current struggles show us just how much F1 drivers depend on their car for success. An average driver can win WDC provided you put him in the quickest car. If Schumacher had a tier one team-mate during his time at Ferrari, very likely he might not have won a single WDC with them.

#9762 BJHF1

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:23

Schumacher's current struggles show us just how much F1 drivers depend on their car for success. An average driver can win WDC provided you put him in the quickest car. If Schumacher had a tier one team-mate during his time at Ferrari, very likely he might not have won a single WDC with them.


That's rubbish. There's no point in comparing a 42 year old Michael to what his abilities were in his peak/prime (probably just prior to 2000). To try and pass judgment on Michael's ability as a 2nd rate driver in his prime, is pure and unfounded speculation really....especially given all of his epic drives in less than top shelf machinery.

Edited by BJHF1, 11 May 2011 - 18:30.


#9763 Massa_f1

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:23

Micheal likes his car to slide around alot. The thing is i dont think modern f1 cars get there pace from doing that. You need to be on the throttle as much as u can and have the car on rails. All i ever see when on board with Schumacher is a constant fight with the car.

#9764 BJHF1

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:27

The thing is, he isn't controlling the sliding with any accuracy. He just seems to lack feel for the car particularly during corner entry, and often looks a bit lost and sluggish with his corrections.

Edited by BJHF1, 11 May 2011 - 18:28.


#9765 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:28

Schumacher's current struggles show us just how much F1 drivers depend on their car for success. An average driver can win WDC provided you put him in the quickest car. If Schumacher had a tier one team-mate during his time at Ferrari, very likely he might not have won a single WDC with them.


You're entitled to your opinion of course, but seriously if you believe that then you're going to be in the minority over anybody who has followed F1 for more than the past 5 years.

Schumacher did things with average cars that others couldn't come close to matching, when he did get the quickest car then he just dominated - 2002 & 2004 spring to mind.


#9766 Tardis40

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:34

Schumacher's current struggles show us just how much F1 drivers depend on their car for success. An average driver can win WDC provided you put him in the quickest car. If Schumacher had a tier one team-mate during his time at Ferrari, very likely he might not have won a single WDC with them.


Michael created a whole new definition of what a "Tier One" driver consists of. He raised the bar substantially.

#9767 BRK

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:40

What happens if he's fine at Barcelona and is quickest of all behind the Red Bulls?

I'd like to know what it is that seems to go wrong with his setups between FP3 and Qualifying. Happens frequently to him but it's happened to Rosberg on a couple of occasions as well, so it's nothing to do with the driver.

#9768 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:46

What happens if he's fine at Barcelona and is quickest of all behind the Red Bulls?

:love: :cat: :up: :clap: :stoned:


#9769 jav

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:48

Ivan makes a good point and it might help. Having time for a second chnace lap might make the first lap less stressed (over-driving not necessary) and if that lap is good- he's done. If not, there's time for another go. My point is that even if MS needs or benefits from this, it's yet another indicator that he's not on Nico's level. Perhaps he still has all his talent and reflexes but can no longer deal with pressure - I don't know the cause but there is no denying that he's just not getting the results.

It seems other reasonable minded fans are coming around. He's just not consistently close enough to Rosberg to be pushing him and thereby helping himself, nico or the team.

Merc has some blame here and the car has been a disappointment until China. It seems the more time the factory has to help, the worse they do. We saw it last year while they were actively developing W01- they mostly lost ground relative to the field. After they gave up on the season, they actually did better. This year- same thing. They looked horrible after all their extra time put in early last year. The first 2 races this year were worse than the first 2 races last year and THAT car was known to be flawed.

They go to China with little or no prep...the equipment in transit for much of the 5 day break and Nico finishes 3rd in a cobbled up car? Could it be that we turned a corner??? The factory gets the car for 3 weeks and they show up in Turkey with better qualifying BUT- BOTH drivers go backwards in the race. They can't run the option tires heavy without blistering ? Who did tire analysis in practice? Why did they abandon practicing and setting up for heavy race conditions, one of the main reasons given for China's success?

#9770 BRK

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:02

:love: :cat: :up: :clap: :stoned:


It's certainly a possibility, isn't it? That might bring some of our theories to a grinding halt for a while, though the one about mysterious issues between free practice and qualifying will likely continue.

#9771 BRK

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:06

They go to China with little or no prep...the equipment in transit for much of the 5 day break and Nico finishes 3rd in a cobbled up car? Could it be that we turned a corner??? The factory gets the car for 3 weeks and they show up in Turkey with better qualifying BUT- BOTH drivers go backwards in the race. They can't run the option tires heavy without blistering ? Who did tire analysis in practice? Why did they abandon practicing and setting up for heavy race conditions, one of the main reasons given for China's success?


There's a lot of inconsistency of form with this team, more so than with any of the other top three teams, and it's the case with both drivers. Perhaps it's affected Schumacher more than it has Rosberg as he's used to approaching a weekend differently, I don't know. But there has to be an underlying cause within the race team that needs to be identified and weeded out soon.

Edited by BRK, 11 May 2011 - 19:06.


#9772 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:08

When we talk about pressure, I think they feel/have different kind of pressure. And level of pressure is different. Nico have only pressure from one lap performance(he have Michael under control until now). Michael have this(one lap) plus fans,team, everybody expectations, not getting well with the car/tyres pressure, pressure from Nico(from this and last season results), personal pressure, other pressure. For me he have 3-4-7 times or more pressure on his shoulders than Nico. So, bigger chance of errors. As I said other drivers like Massa and Heidfeld also didn't cope with pressure well. Nico is very good in this(Qualy performance), as he is not so good at his starts. There is pressure at the start, but somehow Michael managed it very well.
Yes, there is possibility Michael to have very good Qualy in Barcelona.

Edited by ivand911, 11 May 2011 - 19:10.


#9773 Sakae

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:09

On his personal site he stated that car was unstable in turns (sliding). Since that happened to me too once (not in F1), I know precisely how that (s***e) feels.

Edited by Sakae, 11 May 2011 - 19:09.


#9774 ivand911

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:17

On his personal site he stated that car was unstable in turns (sliding). Since that happened to me too once (not in F1), I know precisely how that (s***e) feels.

from Mark Hughes article:
"What happened in the top-10 shoot-out was that Schumacher messed up his one lap and Rosberg did not.

Schumacher took too much speed into Turn One - just as he did in 2006. That pulled him out wide on the exit, he got dust on his tyres and that impacted upon the rest of his lap.

"Looking at the data, we can see Michael had considerably less tyre grip through most of that lap than he'd enjoyed previously," said team principal Ross Brawn.

"It takes a long time for the tyres to recover when you get off line."

That was what was responsible for probably around 80% of the one second chasm between the two Mercedes drivers in their final qualifying times.

Because the team had committed to single-lap runs, that deficit was frozen and goes down in the records.

Yes, it was Schumacher who ran wide and Rosberg who did not, suggesting perhaps that Schumacher's pace was coming with less ease than Rosberg's, but the genuine performance gap between them had they each performed to their potential was in the order of 0.2secs - around half the gap between the Red Bull drivers on the front row, for example."
Maybe going off he got dust and marbles on his tyres.
I personally after the race in Turkey picked some marbles for myself from turn 1. I think they become fans attraction.


#9775 DutchCruijff

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:24

Pressure and Schumacher is a weird one, on the face it, 7 X WDC? Pressure, what pressure? But the extract below (Jock Clear's view) is interesting - bitterness and bias clouding his judgement? Not so sure.

‘Jacques and I worked out quite early on that Michael would lose if you put him under a huge amount of pressure, ‘ said Clear, speaking in early 2007. ‘He lost the 1998 world championship to Hakkinen by stalling on the grid. I mean who stalls on the grid for heaven’s sake?

‘It’s that kind of situation where he knows he’s not very good and he does everything he possibly can do to avoid ever being in that situation. Jerez was one of those rare occasions when it was down to ‘me against you’ for the title, on the track. Adelaide was another one, Damon put him under pressure, he lost concentration and hit the wall. In those situations he knows he’s not very good and his coping strategy for that situation is ‘I know I’m going to f** it up but I’ll still come out the winner.’ Adelaide was the right result for him because he won.

‘Jerez was another occasion, he knew he was asleep and he had made a mistake and he knew that Jacques was going to beat him. And he thought, ‘I don’t care what people say, I’m still going to walk away from this one the winner and people will say that even when I get it wrong I still win, so I am unbeatable.’ Because if he had allowed a reputation to develop for being beaten when you put him under pressure, then he’s eroded. But at Jerez it didn’t work and Jacques did beat him and that probably irks him more than any other failure he’s ever had. And it’s astonishing that having had all that time to think about it and come to terms with it, he then did it again in Monaco.’*

Edited by DutchCruijff, 11 May 2011 - 19:25.


#9776 primer

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 20:13

Michael created a whole new definition of what a "Tier One" driver consists of.

His success was down to weak team-mates and a strong car. That's not tier one racing driver stuff, but perhaps a tier-one political animal who can engineer such favorable position for himself in a team. He has achieved similar political success at Mercedes: even though he is the slower of the two driver the team focus all attention on making him quicker.

He raised the bar substantially.

For the first time in his career he has been paired next to a semi-decent driver (Rosberg), and all he has done so far is lower the bar for all tier-two drivers on the grid.

#9777 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 20:16

His success was down to weak team-mates and a strong car. That's not tier one racing driver stuff, but perhaps a tier-one political animal who can engineer such favorable position for himself in a team. He has achieved similar political success at Mercedes: even though he is the slower of the two driver the team focus all attention on making him quicker.


For the first time in his career he has been paired next to a semi-decent driver (Rosberg), and all he has done so far is lower the bar for all tier-two drivers on the grid.


Primer is doing his best to remove all credibility to his postings. Nothing like providing clear evidence of your hatred & bias towards a driver is there?


#9778 rommel

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 20:32

His success was down to weak team-mates and a strong car. That's not tier one racing driver stuff, but perhaps a tier-one political animal who can engineer such favorable position for himself in a team. He has achieved similar political success at Mercedes: even though he is the slower of the two driver the team focus all attention on making him quicker.


For the first time in his career he has been paired next to a semi-decent driver (Rosberg), and all he has done so far is lower the bar for all tier-two drivers on the grid.



Rubens was not and is not a weak driver, and in the late 90s, did more to impress than Rosberg has ever done. He had a number of great drives and finishes in midfield cars, and even near the end of his career he pushed Button to the wire in 2009 for the world championship. Rosbeg has yet to prove he is even as good as Rubens was, and I don't think he is actually. The driver levels have not changed execept for a few more special talents but overall there will always be the barrichellos, buttons, rosbergs, trullis, fisichelllas

#9779 Hairpin

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 20:59

I see there is references to Johnny Herbert here, and what he said about Schumi.

Among other things he say:

"Schumacher has not lost any of his skill - the new generation of young drivers are just better than him.
It is a case that the level required to win in F1 has gone up and he is not at that standard anymore."


I saw a rerun of a race in a WW Scirocco cup today. Johnny was driving, He was not at that standard anymore.

Edited by Hairpin, 11 May 2011 - 21:01.


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#9780 Murdoch

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:01

[quote name='BJHF1' date='May 11 2011, 19:11' post='5014886']
He's not saying it's an issue of trying or not - Rather that it could be an issue of performing under pressure (by waiting until the last minutes of Q3 to do his run).


Sorry mate but you completly missed my point....

#9781 Hacklerf

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:04

I dont know why people have to hate, we should enjoy the things Michael gives, because he is a special driver and has much to offer still, so what if Nico is faster? Nico isnt a shit driver, and to be out paced by him, at his age is no shame, infact, one must look at it and ask perhaps why Nico isnt further up the road.

#9782 primer

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:07

Nothing like providing clear evidence of your hatred & bias towards a driver is there?

Saying water is wet does not mean I hate water. And bias? Only biased people keep hoping/dreaming/masturbating that Schumacher will show them his 'masterclass', next race. Shame that race never comes.

In general I am not supportive of drivers who are waste of an F1 seat, I'd much rather that seat go to some unproven rookie (who might also not be good, but you won't know unless you give them an opportunity). F1 has this tendency to accumulate too much old crud as far as drivers are concerned, it is not merely Schumacher who is slow, useless and wasting a seat right now in F1.

#9783 ClubmanGT

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:19

I take it you were making the same arguments about Jenson Button before he won his first race then?

#9784 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:23

Primer,

You clearly feel MS is unworthy of a seat in F1 today, which is fine, you'll get a lot of agreement for that view.

But you clearly devalued all his previous achievements and that's completely incorrect, you allowed your current opinion to cloud your judgement on his career between 1991-2006 and that's the fatal flaw in your argument.

Which is where the bias comes in.....

MM

#9785 BJHF1

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:24

Sorry mate but you completly missed my point....


I'm sorry. What was your point, if you don't mind me asking.


Saying water is wet does not mean I hate water. And bias? Only biased people keep hoping/dreaming/masturbating that Schumacher will show them his 'masterclass', next race. Shame that race never comes.

In general I am not supportive of drivers who are waste of an F1 seat, I'd much rather that seat go to some unproven rookie (who might also not be good, but you won't know unless you give them an opportunity). F1 has this tendency to accumulate too much old crud as far as drivers are concerned, it is not merely Schumacher who is slow, useless and wasting a seat right now in F1.


That's fine and all, but when you start labelling Schumacher as never being a top tier driver (basing your judgement off his current performances) you're being a bit ignorant by discrediting some of the brilliant drives/results he's achieved (in his prime...not @ 42) against very respectable team mates in the past.

Edited by BJHF1, 11 May 2011 - 21:26.


#9786 as65p

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:40

I dont know why people have to hate, we should enjoy the things Michael gives, because he is a special driver and has much to offer still....


Actually after his comeback he's a pretty ordinary driver and I haven't seen him offering anything special. He lives from his glorious past end the expectations that come with it (but haven't nearly been met yet).

Heck, even I expected him to pull something special out of the bag 1 or 2 times, but it just hasn't happened. Well, unless one counts scaring the sh*t out of Rubens.

#9787 Anssi

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:51

Michael Schumacher struggling a bit now is mostly a reminder for us about how much more important a good car is than the driver. I could bet money on him winning some races this season in the Red Bull Racing car. Nico would win too.

#9788 puxanando

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:59

Schumi has "feddisch"...nothing else to say! hard but 'real'.
There are people who said that he went back to F1 because he didn't find any other things for living...in a 6 year old interview he said, that he read only 10 books in his whole live.....

#9789 metz

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:11

AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine had a rather harsh headline today;

Engländer fordern Schumi-Rücktritt
Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard und Johnny Herbert nehmen Schumi unter Beschuss. Sie fordern zwischen den Zeilen den Rücktritt

They state that the English (they mean these 3) demand Schumacher's withdrawal, retirement.

And thus it starts. ):

#9790 eriknaa

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:14

Really didn't see anything this weekend to make it this melodramatic. He had a few scruffy battles with midfield GP2-style banzai drivers he should not have been fighting with in the first place, had good race pace, and pulled off some good moves himself including on on the outside of a turn in the first complex. No big deal.

He was downcast after the race and it's his comments that have got people talking (need something to talk about, I guess) and drawn the termites out of the wood, who cares. I expect to hear opinions from Moss as well, pretty soon.


Well said mate, Michael will show them again very soon, they will have to eat their words, as allways, when its comes to Michael :)

#9791 as65p

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:24

Michael Schumacher struggling a bit now is mostly a reminder for us about how much more important a good car is than the driver. I could bet money on him winning some races this season in the Red Bull Racing car. Nico would win too.


Nico too? :drunk:

From all we've seen since the start of 2010, Rosberg would win regularily leaving MS one or two crumbs from his table. And the comparison with his teammate driving the same car is exactly why the "bad car" argument is misleading. For MS in his current guise to become a regular winner, he wouldn't only need a better car but first and foremost a weaker teammate than Rosberg evidently is.

#9792 puxanando

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:25

AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine....

 ;) it isn't.... but you're right. Many german papers are shooting against his "heroe" of old times!

#9793 Scotracer

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:32

AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine had a rather harsh headline today;

Engländer fordern Schumi-Rücktritt
Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard und Johnny Herbert nehmen Schumi unter Beschuss. Sie fordern zwischen den Zeilen den Rücktritt

They state that the English (they mean these 3) demand Schumacher's withdrawal, retirement.

And thus it starts. ):


Even though only one of them is English :p :wave:

#9794 tyker

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:46

I can tell you what is embarrassing. Embarrassing is when you are not telling the truth. Check your facts right. Q2 times: Nico 1:25.801 , Michael 1:26.121. Not exactly 0,6 sec, isn't it?

Sill consistently slower than Rosberg though

#9795 Raelene

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:55

QUOTE (metz @ May 11 2011, 23:11)
AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine had a rather harsh headline today;

Engländer fordern Schumi-Rücktritt
Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard und Johnny Herbert nehmen Schumi unter Beschuss. Sie fordern zwischen den Zeilen den Rücktritt

They state that the English (they mean these 3) demand Schumacher's withdrawal, retirement.

And thus it starts.



Funny - In DC's column he doesn't call for his retirement

#9796 black magic

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 23:24

Jock clears comments demonstrate what a mistake it has been to still have him in f1

firstly if he still holds that attitude then he should resign and secondly his opnion is so sill y and simply doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

yes he made mistakes in 2 crucial battles.

as for stalling on th egrid that has been explained away and was not so uncommon as implied. timing was awful.

whilst 2002, 2003 and 4 were won relatively easily he also won many crucial races

how bout monza when he broke down - he had to win to keep his championship alive. how bout japan 2000 racing a driver in a better elague than jacques and evenly matched car, in the light rain with changing conditions - no pressure just the italian and world media, the tifosi, montazemalo on your back but hey no pressure there either Jock. how bout china 2006 when his win against the odds revitalised his championship including holding off alonso as the track was becoming drenched with late shower - no pressure Jock?

sorry aditiya but just cause some people are in F1 doesnt make their opinions necessarily more accurate. like Clear, like DC, like Herbert - these people fundamentally dont like schumacher and I suspect he doesn tlike them either - probably stemming from the fact that he ahsnt hid his lack of respect for them - like Damon and Jacque. unlike Alonso and Hakkinnen. On the same basis should DC also be giving up his saloon car career?

these individuals also struggle to keep their personal opinion separate from a professional opinion - it devalues both.

the only problem suggesting michael should retire is his Q2/3 performance - lets not blow it out of proportion

if it continues as bad as it was in Turkey then I would agree he should give it up having demonstarted that michael 2011 is not michael 2000. frankly there were signs even 2006 that he was not quite the driver of yesteryear but still better than most if not all on the grid.

lets not forget that Mansell on his return after 1 year absence was nowehere near damons pace even in the best car. that lauda wasnt as fast as his teammate on his return either. there are simple consequences of ageing that all the fitness, determination and ability cannot entirely reverse.

#9797 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 00:01

Jock clears comments demonstrate what a mistake it has been to still have him in f1

firstly if he still holds that attitude then he should resign and secondly his opnion is so sill y and simply doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

yes he made mistakes in 2 crucial battles.

as for stalling on th egrid that has been explained away and was not so uncommon as implied. timing was awful.

whilst 2002, 2003 and 4 were won relatively easily he also won many crucial races

how bout monza when he broke down - he had to win to keep his championship alive. how bout japan 2000 racing a driver in a better elague than jacques and evenly matched car, in the light rain with changing conditions - no pressure just the italian and world media, the tifosi, montazemalo on your back but hey no pressure there either Jock. how bout china 2006 when his win against the odds revitalised his championship including holding off alonso as the track was becoming drenched with late shower - no pressure Jock?

sorry aditiya but just cause some people are in F1 doesnt make their opinions necessarily more accurate. like Clear, like DC, like Herbert - these people fundamentally dont like schumacher and I suspect he doesn tlike them either - probably stemming from the fact that he ahsnt hid his lack of respect for them - like Damon and Jacque. unlike Alonso and Hakkinnen. On the same basis should DC also be giving up his saloon car career?

these individuals also struggle to keep their personal opinion separate from a professional opinion - it devalues both.

the only problem suggesting michael should retire is his Q2/3 performance - lets not blow it out of proportion

if it continues as bad as it was in Turkey then I would agree he should give it up having demonstarted that michael 2011 is not michael 2000. frankly there were signs even 2006 that he was not quite the driver of yesteryear but still better than most if not all on the grid.

lets not forget that Mansell on his return after 1 year absence was nowehere near damons pace even in the best car. that lauda wasnt as fast as his teammate on his return either. there are simple consequences of ageing that all the fitness, determination and ability cannot entirely reverse.


I take all your points on board Black Magic, and even agree their basic factuality, but I don't think dismissing Clear's opinions out of hand is useful. I say this having been a big fan of Michael's through to when the FIA clearly started to work for Ferrari. I even made excuses for Schumie's clash with JV (I was wrong).

However something that was clear (no pun intended :) ) during the 1997-2001 era was that Mika really was "iceman" and he had an advantage in composure over Michael, no doubt IMO. Of course there were times when MS drove impeccably, and at times sensationally, almost supernaturally (in the wet at Spa for example). Mistakes are common of all drivers but it is wrong to think that Michael was particularly strong in this area, he wasn't, and Mika was. Their battles were among the great ones of all time (Suzuka 2000 just one).

I think Michael's error rate in his second stint in F1 is very high, at a level of F1 rookies. His move on Rubens was beyond the pale and the single most memorable event of his comeback, other than the general gloom of his mediocrity. Cruel mockers of Michael would actually want him to continue in F1, a past-it former champion getting humiliated by his teammate. I don't relish it as his racing record, despite the blemishes, was fantastic and the very reason I came back from F1-viewing retirement after all that disgusting Senna/Prost BS.

I don't think 7 WDCs gives you the right to expect to be carried and M-B are currently carrying a poor No 1 driver who is not up to No 2 status for a team aspiring to winning races. Remember too, we don't even know how good Rosberg is, only that he is NOT BAD and much better than the 2010/11 Scumacher.

#9798 marchi-91

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 05:43

I see there is references to Johnny Herbert here, and what he said about Schumi.

Among other things he say:

"Schumacher has not lost any of his skill - the new generation of young drivers are just better than him.
It is a case that the level required to win in F1 has gone up and he is not at that standard anymore."


I saw a rerun of a race in a WW Scirocco cup today. Johnny was driving, He was not at that standard anymore.



See this opinion from Herbert is bullshit. Why is that when Michael races against these drivers outside of f1, he generally beats them all?

#9799 Jomyboy

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:21

I see there is references to Johnny Herbert here, and what he said about Schumi.

Among other things he say:

"Schumacher has not lost any of his skill - the new generation of young drivers are just better than him.
It is a case that the level required to win in F1 has gone up and he is not at that standard anymore."

I saw a rerun of a race in a WW Scirocco cup today. Johnny was driving, He was not at that standard anymore.



At that rate Herbert at the peak of his career would be like 2 seconds + slower to Nico.

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#9800 Hairpin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 09:40

At that rate Herbert at the peak of his career would be like 2 seconds + slower to Nico.

More probably, but my point was that if you ask Johnny it is the others getting faster.