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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#9801 ivand911

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:41

Michael in Strasbourg yesterday:
http://i2.fastpic.ru...9963e179237.jpg
http://i2.fastpic.ru...b66fe5d56b7.jpg
http://ec.europa.eu/...e...&sid=179560

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#9802 Disgrace

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:46

See this opinion from Herbert is bullshit. Why is that when Michael races against these drivers outside of f1, he generally beats them all?


Not much of an argument; Tonio Liuzzi is seriously successful at karting for example.

Edited by Disgrace, 12 May 2011 - 13:04.


#9803 Tardis40

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:04

His success was down to weak team-mates and a strong car. That's not tier one racing driver stuff, but perhaps a tier-one political animal who can engineer such favorable position for himself in a team. He has achieved similar political success at Mercedes: even though he is the slower of the two driver the team focus all attention on making him quicker.


For the first time in his career he has been paired next to a semi-decent driver (Rosberg), and all he has done so far is lower the bar for all tier-two drivers on the grid.


His success was down to being the best driver of his generation by a large margin. He redefined what it took to be a successful driver in F1 and it took the rest of the field quite a while to catch up.

Rosberg's success v Michael amounts to his ability to drag a marginally faster Q3 lap out of the car.

#9804 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:14

.....Rosberg's success v Michael amounts to his ability to drag a marginally faster Q3 lap out of the car.


Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.

#9805 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:40

Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.

Edited by Sakae, 12 May 2011 - 12:44.


#9806 metz

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:15

... we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions,

When has THAT ever happened to any driver?
It's always a matter of degrees.

#9807 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:17

Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.

So did Vettel take the crown in 2011?

#9808 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:23

When has THAT ever happened to any driver?
It's always a matter of degrees.

He has achieved nirvana with his made-to-fit Ferrari; that is known fact.

#9809 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:24

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.



We are all entitled to our opinions and beleifs. Mine is different than yours. I didn't initially like Schumacher- I thought he was cold and robotic. Too dominating. I respected (and feared) his ability but it wasn't unitl he completelty broke down on camera after achieveing Senna's numbers that I came to respect him as a human being. That "doing it" wasn't as easy as it seemed from the outside.


I still think he's a good man, and I respect his accomplishments- which can never be taken away. I still hope he shows his greatness BUT- the measure of a driver TO ME- isn't based on his finding the perfect car for him, it's what he can do with the machinery that's under him. If any 2 drivers get into 2 identical cars, over 2 seasons, and one driver consistently gets more out of the car... that's pretty clear and compelleing as to who is the better pilot. That used to be Schumacher- it isn't now.

It's not apple/oranges just becuase he can't find comfort with the car. I bought into that last year because the car had botched weight distruibution and was supposedly taylored to Jensons handling preferences. This years car HAS Micheals inputs. He's still being consistently out driven by Rosberg.

#9810 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:27

So did Vettel take the crown in 2011?

Sorry? Being dumb but I don't get the reference?

#9811 metz

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:33

He has achieved nirvana with his made-to-fit Ferrari; that is known fact.

Nonsense.
He had to adapt to the car, set it up, know the tyres, know the track, etc, just like all the other drivers.
For him, it was probably easier to do this in the Ferrari.

#9812 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:35

I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing?



Sorry? Being dumb but I don't get the reference?


I suppose when you got a glimpse at the end result of the 2011 season you didn't only check out the MGP drivers... :blush:

#9813 britishtrident

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:36

Even though only one of them is English :p :wave:



Spot on :clap:

As one english ex-f1 driver (Martin Brundle) remarked on Schumacher's performance in Turkey "Oh dear !"

#9814 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:40

Nonsense.
He had to adapt to the car, set it up, know the tyres, know the track, etc, just like all the other drivers.
For him, it was probably easier to do this in the Ferrari.

Nonsence? That's not what I know about it. Surely there was a margin in which had to adapt because engineering could not give him a perfect car, but it was damn close, and much more closer than what he has now at MGP.

#9815 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:47

I suppose when you got a glimpse at the end result of the 2011 season you didn't only check out the MGP drivers... :blush:



Sorry- didn't mean to imply 2 FULL seasons- just that for two seasons- race for race- Rosberg has maintained a significant points lead over Schumacher. As it stands now (this season), he has more than triple the points - I think my statement is valid in that it "should" count for something- contrary to what the poster was implying that qualifying was the extent of Rosbergs success over MS.

BTW- Not too hard envision the Vettel result.

Edited by jav, 12 May 2011 - 14:09.


#9816 Tardis40

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 19:42

Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.



Two seasons? And you're telling me I'm void of fact???

News flash! This season has a long way to go.

In case you've forgotten, last season amounted to you finish where you qualify. The competition was very close. A marginally better Q3 lap translated to a number of grid positions. Rosberg was far enough forward that he benefited from the new, inflated points system more than Michael and he was also out of the danger zone for getting tangled up in first corner incidents.

With all that he finished with about 140 points to Michael's 70. Two to one.

If Rosberg scored 2 points for the season and Michael scored one, it wouldn't seem like much of a difference, would it? That's the ratio. Every time Michael scored a point, Rosberg got two.



#9817 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:31

Two seasons? And you're telling me I'm void of fact???

News flash! This season has a long way to go.

In case you've forgotten, last season amounted to you finish where you qualify. The competition was very close. A marginally better Q3 lap translated to a number of grid positions. Rosberg was far enough forward that he benefited from the new, inflated points system more than Michael and he was also out of the danger zone for getting tangled up in first corner incidents.

With all that he finished with about 140 points to Michael's 70. Two to one.

If Rosberg scored 2 points for the season and Michael scored one, it wouldn't seem like much of a difference, would it? That's the ratio. Every time Michael scored a point, Rosberg got two.




tal·ly/ˈtalē/
Verb: Agree or correspond: "signatures should tally with the names".
Noun: A current score or amount. More »
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary


I never meant to imply "full season" - hence the use of the word "tally' (meaning current score). I responded as such above. Also- your last post is correct where your first was not. Rosberg has been more successful than Schumacher in qualifying AND in race results. It's fair to say you beleive Rosbergs race results are in large part due to his qualifying form but it is not fair or factual to say his only success over Schumacher has been in Q3. As my post and your second accuratly state, Rosberg has and continues to out score Schumacher 2 to 1. I hope that trend reverses- but those are the facts as of today.

Edited by jav, 12 May 2011 - 20:36.


#9818 Murdoch

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:52

Nonsence? That's not what I know about it. Surely there was a margin in which had to adapt because engineering could not give him a perfect car, but it was damn close, and much more closer than what he has now at MGP.


I remember commentaters saying that one of the reasons that MS is (at the time obviously) better than his team mates, was because he could drive around problems (I guess in much the same way Hamilton can now). He didn't need the setup to be spot on like his team mates, he used his skill to extract the most from what he was given.

If only he could do that now....



#9819 as65p

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:54

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.


Fine. Applying that kind of science, MS dominance in his first career over his teammates means nothing. Massa, Barrichello, Irvine, even Herbert, even Verstappen and an injured Lehto... they all might have been better drivers than Schumacher. Maybe all they lacked was "a horse which will carry them forward without handicap"... ?

:smoking:

PS: Oh sorry, I forgot Brundle. He would probably have nailed them all with the right kind of horse... :D

Edited by as65p, 12 May 2011 - 20:56.


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#9820 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 21:09

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.

Sakae, I have read many of your posts over the past few years and generally found you objective. However there seems an area here (Schumacher) where your admiration for Michael's past career clouds your judgement. It spills over into disparaging his quick (and polite) young teammate. Nico sets high standards for himself and I think he is aware he is still learning. He has never made excuses for himself when on rare occasion he has failed to get the best out of the car. This you probably se as trying to demean Michael. It's natural that comparisons with teammates happen and in this teaming it's not flattering to "your" man.

You should consider your words I have highlighted. Nico's star has continued to rise and he still keeps his feet on the ground. Keke was a no BS champion who taught his son well, leave your best talking out on the track. I think it sad your fanship for an old champion spills out in this way. Time stands still for nobody and every dog has it's day (and night).

#9821 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:01

He has never made excuses for himself when on rare occasion he has failed to get the best out of the car. This you probably se as trying to demean Michael.

You are not completely right. Examples:
nico_rosberg Nico Rosberg
Cool. Thanks to the Team! Good effort to improve the car! Rear wing adjust broke when I took over the car so that cost me lots of lap time.
nico_rosberg Nico Rosberg
Positive weekend as we are progressing but need to improve in race.Aero part broke b4 last stop.Lost rear grip.Might have caught ham.

First example is from Barcelona test(March11), when Michael record the best time. Second is after Turkey.
But, I guess you mean, when it is Nico it is explanations, when it is Michael it is excuses. I remember him personally giving "explanations" on TV when he is slower than Michael.
Schumacher still strong insists Rosberg
http://www.f1zone.ne...s-rosberg/6944/
Patronising. How nice from him.

But, lets focus on Michael here, shall we?

Edited by ivand911, 13 May 2011 - 07:18.


#9822 britishtrident

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 08:04

The question to ask is If MSC was a young unknown rookie just coming into F1 would he still have a seat in any F1 team ?

Most of the rookies who have come into F1 in the last 5 years have hit the ground running usually matching or ot performing more experienced team mates.

#9823 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 08:13

The question to ask is If MSC was a young unknown rookie just coming into F1 would he still have a seat in any F1 team ?

Do you want me to give you MGP email or you will find it yourself? Send them email and ask. But, I am pretty sure RB answer this question already.


#9824 rommel

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:13

The argument that the new generation drivers are faster than old is hogwash. That kind of thing might apply in tennis, or football or athletics, swimming, where training methods and supplements etc make modern athletes superior to the old days but In driving none of that applies because the art of driving is so pure. It all comes from the mind as long as the driver has a good basic fitness, which Michael certainly had 15 years ago and does today.

#9825 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:19

The question to ask is If MSC was a young unknown rookie just coming into F1 would he still have a seat in any F1 team ?

Of course he would, and if you could sit back and actually rationally look at performances you would know it.

#9826 rommel

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:28

Of course he would, and if you could sit back and actually rationally look at performances you would know it.


Rationally he does not deserve a seat, and he has been consistently thrashed by Rosberg. Rookies that perform like that, generally don't last long and for good reason. The worst thing is that he is not even improving. He is still slow and clumsey.

#9827 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:41

Rationally he does not deserve a seat, and he has been consistently thrashed by Rosberg. Rookies that perform like that, generally don't last long and for good reason. The worst thing is that he is not even improving. He is still slow and clumsey.

This is just ranting though.. the reality simply does not reflect what you are saying in any way.

He is not slow. He is still somewhat inconsistent however.
He is not 'thrashed'. Rosberg has the better of him by a SMALL margin, and not always.
He is not remotely clumsy, and has made a huge number of impressive overtakes and fine moves, including by far the best starts and first corners of any driver in the sport (an area where clumsy=failure)
Any rookie who performed as he has would be regarded as a top prospect.

You are seeing it through a combination of the (fair) expectation that he will be better than others, and the (unfair) green tinted glasses of dislike.


#9828 EddyCurrents

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:48

Rationally he does not deserve a seat, and he has been consistently thrashed by Rosberg. Rookies that perform like that, generally don't last long and for good reason. The worst thing is that he is not even improving. He is still slow and clumsey.


I don't think it makes sense to take MS out of context like this and imagine that he is a rookie. The defining characteristic of a rookie is potential - you give a rookie a chance to see if they have the potential to deliver team-mate beating performances, race wins and eventually, championships. But, you don't know a priori if they will fulfill this potential. Hence, they are continually under the microscope and subject to getting the chop if they don't show sufficient progress. Michael has demonstrated beyond all question that he has what it takes to deliver results. What Ross Brawn and MGP are hoping is that he will rediscover his form. So far, this hasn't happened. I know it sounds almost like an oxymoron, but it looks to me as if Michael is lacking confidence. This is critical to any competitor's performance, and I think he needs a run of decent results to put some of his self doubt to bed.


#9829 Frans

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 12:42

eeeehm... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/91346

[no comment]

am I the only one who sees this?

#9830 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 13:07

Cool, now we get to play guess what Frans is seeing.

It's a link to a story on the front page dopey, I doubt you're the only one who sees it!

^^^ Sarcasm factor maxxed out.

#9831 arknor

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 15:55

eeeehm... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/91346

[no comment]

am I the only one who sees this?

i see a bloke who looks like and most probably is michael schumacher waving towards what i can only assume is the position a photographer has setup his camera to take a picture.

maybe frans sees a very different view of what is going on maybe he sees schumacher saluting hitlers ghost ?

#9832 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 16:02

i see a bloke who looks like and most probably is michael schumacher waving towards what i can only assume is the position a photographer has setup his camera to take a picture.

maybe frans sees a very different view of what is going on maybe he sees schumacher saluting hitlers ghost ?

LOL you gotta admit it's pretty funny!

#9833 Hairpin

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 17:44

eeeehm... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/91346

[no comment]

am I the only one who sees this?

he dyed it?
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#9834 F1 Tor.

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 19:48

eeeehm... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/91346

[no comment]

am I the only one who sees this?


:kiss: you're adorable. You know what they say about every village needing..........

#9835 steveninthematrix

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 19:56

Michael gets a podium in the next two races; you heard it here first.

#9836 Number62

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 21:08

Michael gets a podium in the next two races; you heard it here first.


Just for the avoidance of doubt is that;

both of "the next two races" or

one of "the next two races".

fancy a euro each way with me?

#9837 rommel

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 21:28

This is just ranting though.. the reality simply does not reflect what you are saying in any way.

He is not slow. He is still somewhat inconsistent however.
He is not 'thrashed'. Rosberg has the better of him by a SMALL margin, and not always.
He is not remotely clumsy, and has made a huge number of impressive overtakes and fine moves, including by far the best starts and first corners of any driver in the sport (an area where clumsy=failure)
Any rookie who performed as he has would be regarded as a top prospect.

You are seeing it through a combination of the (fair) expectation that he will be better than others, and the (unfair) green tinted glasses of dislike.


You speak of reality yet your post has no relation to it. Michael has been dominated in almost every qualifying session and race for over 1 season, yet somehow you are denying he is being thrashed or slow. That does not reflect this reality at all I am afraid. It is also as clear as day that in wheel to combat Michael has been extremely clumsey, constantly losing positions, or getting car damage like against Petrov, from over defending but let me guess that was not Michaels fault in your opinion?

Any rookie who performed as he has would be regarded as a top prospect.


Oh boy, that's gold. Some fans just can't let the past go.

Edited by rommel, 13 May 2011 - 21:32.


#9838 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 23:17

What happens if he's fine at Barcelona and is quickest of all behind the Red Bulls?

I'd like to know what it is that seems to go wrong with his setups between FP3 and Qualifying. Happens frequently to him but it's happened to Rosberg on a couple of occasions as well, so it's nothing to do with the driver.


He should take the opportunity to leave on a high note.

#9839 Clatter

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:48

Any rookie who performed as he has would be regarded as a top prospect.


Not sure that's true, but regardless, the simply fact is he is not a rookie.

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#9840 baddog

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:42

Not sure that's true, but regardless, the simply fact is he is not a rookie.

Well lets leave the goalposts where the person who raised the question put them shall we?

#9841 as65p

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:58

Well lets leave the goalposts where the person who raised the question put them shall we?


It's simply not working this "if he was a rookie". Obviously newcomers are judged completely different, there are certain areas in which failures are regarded as forgivable because they tend to disappear with experience. In fact the somewhat clumsy battle style of MS in Turkey would be such an area. A rookie can do that stuff, people will just say he's young and lacks experience, main thing is that the speed is there.
But precisely that line of arguments doesn't apply when judging a 7-time champion.

#9842 puxanando

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 13:03

But precisely that line of arguments doesn't apply when judging a 7-time champion.

:up: all said

#9843 rommel

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 13:32

Well lets leave the goalposts where the person who raised the question put them shall we?


There is no need to move the goal posts. It's not even tolerable for a rookie to be constantly thrashed week in week out for over a season. They are expected to match their team mates within half a season.

#9844 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 14:04

The question to ask is If MSC was a young unknown rookie just coming into F1 would he still have a seat in any F1 team ?

this was the question that was answered. why change the question during answering?

#9845 JustinCider

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 16:17

Just read this. It made me laugh quite a bit.

:rotfl:

Edited by JustinCider, 14 May 2011 - 16:18.


#9846 arknor

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 16:21

Just read this. It made me laugh quite a bit.

:rotfl:

and here was us thinking it was a restraining order against frans

#9847 jjpm

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 18:13

Turkey : fastest laps :
Msc vs Bue 35
Msc vs But 31
Msc vs Kob 30
Msc vs Pet 26
Msc vs Ros 23
Msc vs Mas 23
Msc vs Hei 21
Msc vs Ham 15
------
Ros vs Alonso 15

#9848 arknor

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 18:41

Turkey : fastest laps :
Msc vs Bue 35
Msc vs But 31
Msc vs Kob 30
Msc vs Pet 26
Msc vs Ros 23
Msc vs Mas 23
Msc vs Hei 21
Msc vs Ham 15
------
Ros vs Alonso 15

???

#9849 jjpm

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 18:55

???


ex; Rosberg 15 times has a faster lap time than Alonso during the races.

Edited by jjpm, 14 May 2011 - 18:56.


#9850 Clatter

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 21:55

Turkey : fastest laps :
Msc vs Bue 35
Msc vs But 31
Msc vs Kob 30
Msc vs Pet 26
Msc vs Ros 23
Msc vs Mas 23
Msc vs Hei 21
Msc vs Ham 15
------
Ros vs Alonso 15


And the relevance of that list is????