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#9801 ClubmanGT

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:19

I take it you were making the same arguments about Jenson Button before he won his first race then?

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#9802 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:23

Primer,

You clearly feel MS is unworthy of a seat in F1 today, which is fine, you'll get a lot of agreement for that view.

But you clearly devalued all his previous achievements and that's completely incorrect, you allowed your current opinion to cloud your judgement on his career between 1991-2006 and that's the fatal flaw in your argument.

Which is where the bias comes in.....

MM

#9803 BJHF1

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:24

Sorry mate but you completly missed my point....


I'm sorry. What was your point, if you don't mind me asking.


Saying water is wet does not mean I hate water. And bias? Only biased people keep hoping/dreaming/masturbating that Schumacher will show them his 'masterclass', next race. Shame that race never comes.

In general I am not supportive of drivers who are waste of an F1 seat, I'd much rather that seat go to some unproven rookie (who might also not be good, but you won't know unless you give them an opportunity). F1 has this tendency to accumulate too much old crud as far as drivers are concerned, it is not merely Schumacher who is slow, useless and wasting a seat right now in F1.


That's fine and all, but when you start labelling Schumacher as never being a top tier driver (basing your judgement off his current performances) you're being a bit ignorant by discrediting some of the brilliant drives/results he's achieved (in his prime...not @ 42) against very respectable team mates in the past.

Edited by BJHF1, 11 May 2011 - 21:26.


#9804 as65p

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:40

I dont know why people have to hate, we should enjoy the things Michael gives, because he is a special driver and has much to offer still....


Actually after his comeback he's a pretty ordinary driver and I haven't seen him offering anything special. He lives from his glorious past end the expectations that come with it (but haven't nearly been met yet).

Heck, even I expected him to pull something special out of the bag 1 or 2 times, but it just hasn't happened. Well, unless one counts scaring the sh*t out of Rubens.

#9805 Anssi

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:51

Michael Schumacher struggling a bit now is mostly a reminder for us about how much more important a good car is than the driver. I could bet money on him winning some races this season in the Red Bull Racing car. Nico would win too.

#9806 puxanando

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:59

Schumi has "feddisch"...nothing else to say! hard but 'real'.
There are people who said that he went back to F1 because he didn't find any other things for living...in a 6 year old interview he said, that he read only 10 books in his whole live.....

#9807 metz

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:11

AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine had a rather harsh headline today;

Engländer fordern Schumi-Rücktritt
Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard und Johnny Herbert nehmen Schumi unter Beschuss. Sie fordern zwischen den Zeilen den Rücktritt

They state that the English (they mean these 3) demand Schumacher's withdrawal, retirement.

And thus it starts. ):

#9808 eriknaa

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:14

Really didn't see anything this weekend to make it this melodramatic. He had a few scruffy battles with midfield GP2-style banzai drivers he should not have been fighting with in the first place, had good race pace, and pulled off some good moves himself including on on the outside of a turn in the first complex. No big deal.

He was downcast after the race and it's his comments that have got people talking (need something to talk about, I guess) and drawn the termites out of the wood, who cares. I expect to hear opinions from Moss as well, pretty soon.


Well said mate, Michael will show them again very soon, they will have to eat their words, as allways, when its comes to Michael :)

#9809 as65p

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:24

Michael Schumacher struggling a bit now is mostly a reminder for us about how much more important a good car is than the driver. I could bet money on him winning some races this season in the Red Bull Racing car. Nico would win too.


Nico too? :drunk:

From all we've seen since the start of 2010, Rosberg would win regularily leaving MS one or two crumbs from his table. And the comparison with his teammate driving the same car is exactly why the "bad car" argument is misleading. For MS in his current guise to become a regular winner, he wouldn't only need a better car but first and foremost a weaker teammate than Rosberg evidently is.

#9810 puxanando

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:25

AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine....

 ;) it isn't.... but you're right. Many german papers are shooting against his "heroe" of old times!

#9811 Scotracer

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:32

AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine had a rather harsh headline today;

Engländer fordern Schumi-Rücktritt
Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard und Johnny Herbert nehmen Schumi unter Beschuss. Sie fordern zwischen den Zeilen den Rücktritt

They state that the English (they mean these 3) demand Schumacher's withdrawal, retirement.

And thus it starts. ):


Even though only one of them is English :p :wave:

#9812 tyker

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:46

I can tell you what is embarrassing. Embarrassing is when you are not telling the truth. Check your facts right. Q2 times: Nico 1:25.801 , Michael 1:26.121. Not exactly 0,6 sec, isn't it?

Sill consistently slower than Rosberg though

#9813 Raelene

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:55

QUOTE (metz @ May 11 2011, 23:11)
AMuS, probably the most respected German Motorsport magazine had a rather harsh headline today;

Engländer fordern Schumi-Rücktritt
Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard und Johnny Herbert nehmen Schumi unter Beschuss. Sie fordern zwischen den Zeilen den Rücktritt

They state that the English (they mean these 3) demand Schumacher's withdrawal, retirement.

And thus it starts.



Funny - In DC's column he doesn't call for his retirement

#9814 black magic

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 23:24

Jock clears comments demonstrate what a mistake it has been to still have him in f1

firstly if he still holds that attitude then he should resign and secondly his opnion is so sill y and simply doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

yes he made mistakes in 2 crucial battles.

as for stalling on th egrid that has been explained away and was not so uncommon as implied. timing was awful.

whilst 2002, 2003 and 4 were won relatively easily he also won many crucial races

how bout monza when he broke down - he had to win to keep his championship alive. how bout japan 2000 racing a driver in a better elague than jacques and evenly matched car, in the light rain with changing conditions - no pressure just the italian and world media, the tifosi, montazemalo on your back but hey no pressure there either Jock. how bout china 2006 when his win against the odds revitalised his championship including holding off alonso as the track was becoming drenched with late shower - no pressure Jock?

sorry aditiya but just cause some people are in F1 doesnt make their opinions necessarily more accurate. like Clear, like DC, like Herbert - these people fundamentally dont like schumacher and I suspect he doesn tlike them either - probably stemming from the fact that he ahsnt hid his lack of respect for them - like Damon and Jacque. unlike Alonso and Hakkinnen. On the same basis should DC also be giving up his saloon car career?

these individuals also struggle to keep their personal opinion separate from a professional opinion - it devalues both.

the only problem suggesting michael should retire is his Q2/3 performance - lets not blow it out of proportion

if it continues as bad as it was in Turkey then I would agree he should give it up having demonstarted that michael 2011 is not michael 2000. frankly there were signs even 2006 that he was not quite the driver of yesteryear but still better than most if not all on the grid.

lets not forget that Mansell on his return after 1 year absence was nowehere near damons pace even in the best car. that lauda wasnt as fast as his teammate on his return either. there are simple consequences of ageing that all the fitness, determination and ability cannot entirely reverse.

#9815 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 00:01

Jock clears comments demonstrate what a mistake it has been to still have him in f1

firstly if he still holds that attitude then he should resign and secondly his opnion is so sill y and simply doesnt stand up to scrutiny.

yes he made mistakes in 2 crucial battles.

as for stalling on th egrid that has been explained away and was not so uncommon as implied. timing was awful.

whilst 2002, 2003 and 4 were won relatively easily he also won many crucial races

how bout monza when he broke down - he had to win to keep his championship alive. how bout japan 2000 racing a driver in a better elague than jacques and evenly matched car, in the light rain with changing conditions - no pressure just the italian and world media, the tifosi, montazemalo on your back but hey no pressure there either Jock. how bout china 2006 when his win against the odds revitalised his championship including holding off alonso as the track was becoming drenched with late shower - no pressure Jock?

sorry aditiya but just cause some people are in F1 doesnt make their opinions necessarily more accurate. like Clear, like DC, like Herbert - these people fundamentally dont like schumacher and I suspect he doesn tlike them either - probably stemming from the fact that he ahsnt hid his lack of respect for them - like Damon and Jacque. unlike Alonso and Hakkinnen. On the same basis should DC also be giving up his saloon car career?

these individuals also struggle to keep their personal opinion separate from a professional opinion - it devalues both.

the only problem suggesting michael should retire is his Q2/3 performance - lets not blow it out of proportion

if it continues as bad as it was in Turkey then I would agree he should give it up having demonstarted that michael 2011 is not michael 2000. frankly there were signs even 2006 that he was not quite the driver of yesteryear but still better than most if not all on the grid.

lets not forget that Mansell on his return after 1 year absence was nowehere near damons pace even in the best car. that lauda wasnt as fast as his teammate on his return either. there are simple consequences of ageing that all the fitness, determination and ability cannot entirely reverse.


I take all your points on board Black Magic, and even agree their basic factuality, but I don't think dismissing Clear's opinions out of hand is useful. I say this having been a big fan of Michael's through to when the FIA clearly started to work for Ferrari. I even made excuses for Schumie's clash with JV (I was wrong).

However something that was clear (no pun intended :) ) during the 1997-2001 era was that Mika really was "iceman" and he had an advantage in composure over Michael, no doubt IMO. Of course there were times when MS drove impeccably, and at times sensationally, almost supernaturally (in the wet at Spa for example). Mistakes are common of all drivers but it is wrong to think that Michael was particularly strong in this area, he wasn't, and Mika was. Their battles were among the great ones of all time (Suzuka 2000 just one).

I think Michael's error rate in his second stint in F1 is very high, at a level of F1 rookies. His move on Rubens was beyond the pale and the single most memorable event of his comeback, other than the general gloom of his mediocrity. Cruel mockers of Michael would actually want him to continue in F1, a past-it former champion getting humiliated by his teammate. I don't relish it as his racing record, despite the blemishes, was fantastic and the very reason I came back from F1-viewing retirement after all that disgusting Senna/Prost BS.

I don't think 7 WDCs gives you the right to expect to be carried and M-B are currently carrying a poor No 1 driver who is not up to No 2 status for a team aspiring to winning races. Remember too, we don't even know how good Rosberg is, only that he is NOT BAD and much better than the 2010/11 Scumacher.

#9816 marchi-91

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 05:43

I see there is references to Johnny Herbert here, and what he said about Schumi.

Among other things he say:

"Schumacher has not lost any of his skill - the new generation of young drivers are just better than him.
It is a case that the level required to win in F1 has gone up and he is not at that standard anymore."


I saw a rerun of a race in a WW Scirocco cup today. Johnny was driving, He was not at that standard anymore.



See this opinion from Herbert is bullshit. Why is that when Michael races against these drivers outside of f1, he generally beats them all?

#9817 Jomyboy

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 08:21

I see there is references to Johnny Herbert here, and what he said about Schumi.

Among other things he say:

"Schumacher has not lost any of his skill - the new generation of young drivers are just better than him.
It is a case that the level required to win in F1 has gone up and he is not at that standard anymore."

I saw a rerun of a race in a WW Scirocco cup today. Johnny was driving, He was not at that standard anymore.



At that rate Herbert at the peak of his career would be like 2 seconds + slower to Nico.

#9818 Hairpin

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 09:40

At that rate Herbert at the peak of his career would be like 2 seconds + slower to Nico.

More probably, but my point was that if you ask Johnny it is the others getting faster.

#9819 ivand911

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:41

Michael in Strasbourg yesterday:
http://i2.fastpic.ru...9963e179237.jpg
http://i2.fastpic.ru...b66fe5d56b7.jpg
http://ec.europa.eu/...e...&sid=179560

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#9820 Disgrace

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:46

See this opinion from Herbert is bullshit. Why is that when Michael races against these drivers outside of f1, he generally beats them all?


Not much of an argument; Tonio Liuzzi is seriously successful at karting for example.

Edited by Disgrace, 12 May 2011 - 13:04.


#9821 Tardis40

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:04

His success was down to weak team-mates and a strong car. That's not tier one racing driver stuff, but perhaps a tier-one political animal who can engineer such favorable position for himself in a team. He has achieved similar political success at Mercedes: even though he is the slower of the two driver the team focus all attention on making him quicker.


For the first time in his career he has been paired next to a semi-decent driver (Rosberg), and all he has done so far is lower the bar for all tier-two drivers on the grid.


His success was down to being the best driver of his generation by a large margin. He redefined what it took to be a successful driver in F1 and it took the rest of the field quite a while to catch up.

Rosberg's success v Michael amounts to his ability to drag a marginally faster Q3 lap out of the car.

#9822 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:14

.....Rosberg's success v Michael amounts to his ability to drag a marginally faster Q3 lap out of the car.


Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.

#9823 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 12:40

Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.

Edited by Sakae, 12 May 2011 - 12:44.


#9824 metz

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:15

... we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions,

When has THAT ever happened to any driver?
It's always a matter of degrees.

#9825 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:17

Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.

So did Vettel take the crown in 2011?

#9826 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:23

When has THAT ever happened to any driver?
It's always a matter of degrees.

He has achieved nirvana with his made-to-fit Ferrari; that is known fact.

#9827 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:24

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.



We are all entitled to our opinions and beleifs. Mine is different than yours. I didn't initially like Schumacher- I thought he was cold and robotic. Too dominating. I respected (and feared) his ability but it wasn't unitl he completelty broke down on camera after achieveing Senna's numbers that I came to respect him as a human being. That "doing it" wasn't as easy as it seemed from the outside.


I still think he's a good man, and I respect his accomplishments- which can never be taken away. I still hope he shows his greatness BUT- the measure of a driver TO ME- isn't based on his finding the perfect car for him, it's what he can do with the machinery that's under him. If any 2 drivers get into 2 identical cars, over 2 seasons, and one driver consistently gets more out of the car... that's pretty clear and compelleing as to who is the better pilot. That used to be Schumacher- it isn't now.

It's not apple/oranges just becuase he can't find comfort with the car. I bought into that last year because the car had botched weight distruibution and was supposedly taylored to Jensons handling preferences. This years car HAS Micheals inputs. He's still being consistently out driven by Rosberg.

#9828 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:27

So did Vettel take the crown in 2011?

Sorry? Being dumb but I don't get the reference?

#9829 metz

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:33

He has achieved nirvana with his made-to-fit Ferrari; that is known fact.

Nonsense.
He had to adapt to the car, set it up, know the tyres, know the track, etc, just like all the other drivers.
For him, it was probably easier to do this in the Ferrari.

#9830 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:35

I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing?



Sorry? Being dumb but I don't get the reference?


I suppose when you got a glimpse at the end result of the 2011 season you didn't only check out the MGP drivers... :blush:

#9831 britishtrident

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:36

Even though only one of them is English :p :wave:



Spot on :clap:

As one english ex-f1 driver (Martin Brundle) remarked on Schumacher's performance in Turkey "Oh dear !"

#9832 Sakae

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:40

Nonsense.
He had to adapt to the car, set it up, know the tyres, know the track, etc, just like all the other drivers.
For him, it was probably easier to do this in the Ferrari.

Nonsence? That's not what I know about it. Surely there was a margin in which had to adapt because engineering could not give him a perfect car, but it was damn close, and much more closer than what he has now at MGP.

#9833 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 13:47

I suppose when you got a glimpse at the end result of the 2011 season you didn't only check out the MGP drivers... :blush:



Sorry- didn't mean to imply 2 FULL seasons- just that for two seasons- race for race- Rosberg has maintained a significant points lead over Schumacher. As it stands now (this season), he has more than triple the points - I think my statement is valid in that it "should" count for something- contrary to what the poster was implying that qualifying was the extent of Rosbergs success over MS.

BTW- Not too hard envision the Vettel result.

Edited by jav, 12 May 2011 - 14:09.


#9834 Tardis40

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 19:42

Statements like this are so void of fact they discredit the writer. I suppose 2 seasons of more than double the points tally amounts to nothing? I like Michael too but there is none so blind as he who WILL NOT see.



Two seasons? And you're telling me I'm void of fact???

News flash! This season has a long way to go.

In case you've forgotten, last season amounted to you finish where you qualify. The competition was very close. A marginally better Q3 lap translated to a number of grid positions. Rosberg was far enough forward that he benefited from the new, inflated points system more than Michael and he was also out of the danger zone for getting tangled up in first corner incidents.

With all that he finished with about 140 points to Michael's 70. Two to one.

If Rosberg scored 2 points for the season and Michael scored one, it wouldn't seem like much of a difference, would it? That's the ratio. Every time Michael scored a point, Rosberg got two.



#9835 jav

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:31

Two seasons? And you're telling me I'm void of fact???

News flash! This season has a long way to go.

In case you've forgotten, last season amounted to you finish where you qualify. The competition was very close. A marginally better Q3 lap translated to a number of grid positions. Rosberg was far enough forward that he benefited from the new, inflated points system more than Michael and he was also out of the danger zone for getting tangled up in first corner incidents.

With all that he finished with about 140 points to Michael's 70. Two to one.

If Rosberg scored 2 points for the season and Michael scored one, it wouldn't seem like much of a difference, would it? That's the ratio. Every time Michael scored a point, Rosberg got two.




tal·ly/ˈtalē/
Verb: Agree or correspond: "signatures should tally with the names".
Noun: A current score or amount. More »
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary


I never meant to imply "full season" - hence the use of the word "tally' (meaning current score). I responded as such above. Also- your last post is correct where your first was not. Rosberg has been more successful than Schumacher in qualifying AND in race results. It's fair to say you beleive Rosbergs race results are in large part due to his qualifying form but it is not fair or factual to say his only success over Schumacher has been in Q3. As my post and your second accuratly state, Rosberg has and continues to out score Schumacher 2 to 1. I hope that trend reverses- but those are the facts as of today.

Edited by jav, 12 May 2011 - 20:36.


#9836 Murdoch

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:52

Nonsence? That's not what I know about it. Surely there was a margin in which had to adapt because engineering could not give him a perfect car, but it was damn close, and much more closer than what he has now at MGP.


I remember commentaters saying that one of the reasons that MS is (at the time obviously) better than his team mates, was because he could drive around problems (I guess in much the same way Hamilton can now). He didn't need the setup to be spot on like his team mates, he used his skill to extract the most from what he was given.

If only he could do that now....



#9837 as65p

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 20:54

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.


Fine. Applying that kind of science, MS dominance in his first career over his teammates means nothing. Massa, Barrichello, Irvine, even Herbert, even Verstappen and an injured Lehto... they all might have been better drivers than Schumacher. Maybe all they lacked was "a horse which will carry them forward without handicap"... ?

:smoking:

PS: Oh sorry, I forgot Brundle. He would probably have nailed them all with the right kind of horse... :D

Edited by as65p, 12 May 2011 - 20:56.


#9838 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 21:09

In a way you are correct on that point, from another point of view, as I think, a question has not been asked, whether both set of data are comparable, or we are comparing apples and oranges. I for one do think that we can judge Michael only when he is totally comfortable with that car, and he has full control of it in every conceivable situation in race conditions, before we can start looking on a driver v. driver. I love this guy very much, he made me watch F1 for good many years, and I really did not expected him to return, even be one and the same as the man he was ten years ago. I wish him satisfaction from what he is doing, but from various tid-bits coming out from MGP camp I gather, the car and tires are not responding as he wants. It is a detriment affecting results, no doubt about it, and I cannot pretend that I understand what the issues are. Is it set-up, is it his feel he cannot find? Who knows, but until that is sorted out, I do not care where Rosberg is in comparison to him, yet the minute Schumacher should find a horse which will carry him forward without handicap, than I would like to see how big man Rosberg really is. Right now I see Nico running through premises, for benefit of media he plays a leader, shaking hands, telling guys - good job, waving his hand. Well, I have no crystal ball, and I do not read tea leafs, but I know a lot about Schumacher - racer, and Nico needs to be careful so his career dosen't go from high to gutter in a hurry.

Sakae, I have read many of your posts over the past few years and generally found you objective. However there seems an area here (Schumacher) where your admiration for Michael's past career clouds your judgement. It spills over into disparaging his quick (and polite) young teammate. Nico sets high standards for himself and I think he is aware he is still learning. He has never made excuses for himself when on rare occasion he has failed to get the best out of the car. This you probably se as trying to demean Michael. It's natural that comparisons with teammates happen and in this teaming it's not flattering to "your" man.

You should consider your words I have highlighted. Nico's star has continued to rise and he still keeps his feet on the ground. Keke was a no BS champion who taught his son well, leave your best talking out on the track. I think it sad your fanship for an old champion spills out in this way. Time stands still for nobody and every dog has it's day (and night).

#9839 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 07:01

He has never made excuses for himself when on rare occasion he has failed to get the best out of the car. This you probably se as trying to demean Michael.

You are not completely right. Examples:
nico_rosberg Nico Rosberg
Cool. Thanks to the Team! Good effort to improve the car! Rear wing adjust broke when I took over the car so that cost me lots of lap time.
nico_rosberg Nico Rosberg
Positive weekend as we are progressing but need to improve in race.Aero part broke b4 last stop.Lost rear grip.Might have caught ham.

First example is from Barcelona test(March11), when Michael record the best time. Second is after Turkey.
But, I guess you mean, when it is Nico it is explanations, when it is Michael it is excuses. I remember him personally giving "explanations" on TV when he is slower than Michael.
Schumacher still strong insists Rosberg
http://www.f1zone.ne...s-rosberg/6944/
Patronising. How nice from him.

But, lets focus on Michael here, shall we?

Edited by ivand911, 13 May 2011 - 07:18.


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#9840 britishtrident

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 08:04

The question to ask is If MSC was a young unknown rookie just coming into F1 would he still have a seat in any F1 team ?

Most of the rookies who have come into F1 in the last 5 years have hit the ground running usually matching or ot performing more experienced team mates.

#9841 ivand911

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 08:13

The question to ask is If MSC was a young unknown rookie just coming into F1 would he still have a seat in any F1 team ?

Do you want me to give you MGP email or you will find it yourself? Send them email and ask. But, I am pretty sure RB answer this question already.


#9842 rommel

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:13

The argument that the new generation drivers are faster than old is hogwash. That kind of thing might apply in tennis, or football or athletics, swimming, where training methods and supplements etc make modern athletes superior to the old days but In driving none of that applies because the art of driving is so pure. It all comes from the mind as long as the driver has a good basic fitness, which Michael certainly had 15 years ago and does today.

#9843 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:19

The question to ask is If MSC was a young unknown rookie just coming into F1 would he still have a seat in any F1 team ?

Of course he would, and if you could sit back and actually rationally look at performances you would know it.

#9844 rommel

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:28

Of course he would, and if you could sit back and actually rationally look at performances you would know it.


Rationally he does not deserve a seat, and he has been consistently thrashed by Rosberg. Rookies that perform like that, generally don't last long and for good reason. The worst thing is that he is not even improving. He is still slow and clumsey.

#9845 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:41

Rationally he does not deserve a seat, and he has been consistently thrashed by Rosberg. Rookies that perform like that, generally don't last long and for good reason. The worst thing is that he is not even improving. He is still slow and clumsey.

This is just ranting though.. the reality simply does not reflect what you are saying in any way.

He is not slow. He is still somewhat inconsistent however.
He is not 'thrashed'. Rosberg has the better of him by a SMALL margin, and not always.
He is not remotely clumsy, and has made a huge number of impressive overtakes and fine moves, including by far the best starts and first corners of any driver in the sport (an area where clumsy=failure)
Any rookie who performed as he has would be regarded as a top prospect.

You are seeing it through a combination of the (fair) expectation that he will be better than others, and the (unfair) green tinted glasses of dislike.


#9846 EddyCurrents

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:48

Rationally he does not deserve a seat, and he has been consistently thrashed by Rosberg. Rookies that perform like that, generally don't last long and for good reason. The worst thing is that he is not even improving. He is still slow and clumsey.


I don't think it makes sense to take MS out of context like this and imagine that he is a rookie. The defining characteristic of a rookie is potential - you give a rookie a chance to see if they have the potential to deliver team-mate beating performances, race wins and eventually, championships. But, you don't know a priori if they will fulfill this potential. Hence, they are continually under the microscope and subject to getting the chop if they don't show sufficient progress. Michael has demonstrated beyond all question that he has what it takes to deliver results. What Ross Brawn and MGP are hoping is that he will rediscover his form. So far, this hasn't happened. I know it sounds almost like an oxymoron, but it looks to me as if Michael is lacking confidence. This is critical to any competitor's performance, and I think he needs a run of decent results to put some of his self doubt to bed.


#9847 Frans

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 12:42

eeeehm... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/91346

[no comment]

am I the only one who sees this?

#9848 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 13:07

Cool, now we get to play guess what Frans is seeing.

It's a link to a story on the front page dopey, I doubt you're the only one who sees it!

^^^ Sarcasm factor maxxed out.

#9849 arknor

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 15:55

eeeehm... http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/91346

[no comment]

am I the only one who sees this?

i see a bloke who looks like and most probably is michael schumacher waving towards what i can only assume is the position a photographer has setup his camera to take a picture.

maybe frans sees a very different view of what is going on maybe he sees schumacher saluting hitlers ghost ?

#9850 Birelman

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 16:02

i see a bloke who looks like and most probably is michael schumacher waving towards what i can only assume is the position a photographer has setup his camera to take a picture.

maybe frans sees a very different view of what is going on maybe he sees schumacher saluting hitlers ghost ?

LOL you gotta admit it's pretty funny!