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#9901 ivand911

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 12:24

EDIT: Jock Clear had a point when he said that Schumacher has spent most of his career avoiding pressure wherever e could.

Isn't it what every driver is striving for?
About lots of testing, can you give proofs? Because in this thread I personally found and put data/links that show how Badoer did the most of the testing, Barichello second and Michael was last. This was for 2001,2002 years if I remember correctly. So,there is data ,find it and prove you are right? And they all test a lot, other teams too.


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#9902 sharo

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 13:12

This thread is just like
THIS
:)

#9903 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 14:14

One cannot help but wonder if Nico Rosberg would be even quicker if he had a a more competitive guy in the number 2 driver seat.


Nico has raised his game but be consistently ahead of Schumacher. Trust me, Daily Mirror reader, he wont get faster than this. He wont be able to magic the car from 4th best to 1 second clear of the Red Bulls.

#9904 spacekid

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 14:20

Same difference. Undisputed number 1 status and no competition, lots of testing, a certain amount of help from traction control and a bunch of competent engineers doing things for him which Mercedes seem to lack. Now that the playing field has been levelled again he's not looking particularly special.

Hell, the guy is a talented driver and he won his titles through a ton of hard work and bending things to his will that other drivers just weren't prepared to do. Fair play to him. However, he just wasn't realistic about why exactly he'd won before when he decided to make this comeback.

I felt sorry for him at Turkey as well. The Mercedes has started to look better but qualifying was a disaster (being a second off means he got trounced by Rosberg) and the race....... Those defensive moves were just absolutely terrible.

EDIT: Jock Clear had a point when he said that Schumacher has spent most of his career avoiding pressure wherever e could.


So how do you explain away Michaels great driving between '91 and the start of '94? Os some of his race wins in 96-97?

Also, which absolutely terrible defensive moves are you referring to? He made a mistake against Petrov, but you imply there were many cases of bad driving from him during the race in Turkey. Which examples are you referring to please?

#9905 George Costanza

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 14:35

Not to play a bit of tug or war; but regards to pressure: Ayrton Senna was better than Schumacher when it came to that. Jo Ramierz said that.

Edited by George Costanza, 16 May 2011 - 14:35.


#9906 Sakae

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 14:47

EDIT: Jock Clear had a point when he said that Schumacher has spent most of his career avoiding pressure wherever e could.

One of the reasons why either Mr. Clear or Mr. Schumacher should be working at MGP, but not both at the same time. That was clear (to this fan) from the outset.

Edited by Sakae, 16 May 2011 - 14:47.


#9907 Sakae

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 14:52

Not to play a bit of tug or war; but regards to pressure: Ayrton Senna was better than Schumacher when it came to that. Jo Ramierz said that.

Many people said many things about Schumacher and his career, and it's nothing new that we are not all on the same page. Senna managed to smack people in the paddock when he got mad. How is that about handling pressure? I think that like with many other topics, Senna's greatness grew in time with his passing. Hamilton' and Alonso' greatness is also related to the past, and some reconcilliation between myth and reality could be useful.

#9908 arknor

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 16:01

Not to play a bit of tug or war; but regards to pressure: Ayrton Senna was better than Schumacher when it came to that. Jo Ramierz said that.

yea thats why senna invented the ram your competitor off to win the championship

#9909 spacekid

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 18:34

yea thats why senna invented the ram your competitor off to win the championship


Oh lordy here we go!!!! :p

I actually have my own theory about that. I think that Senna punted his rivals (ok lets just say Prost) off the track very much on purpose because he felt he was justified in doing it. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and was too stubborn to accept he might be beaten on merit so justified it to himself that he had been hard done by, and did what he did.

Schumi on the other hand I don't feel handles pressure well at all (i don't much like Jock Clear but he's right on the money with that one), and when he has behaved badly I think he has just panicked. In many ways he's just a big kid, they do that sort of thing all the time :)

#9910 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 19:28

Please avoid discussion of Schumi v Senna please.

#9911 sharo

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 21:21

This may seem a bit OT but this thread is more suitable IMO.
Contrary to some people here I think that Nico is lucky and having MS as a team mate is something very good for his career. First of all his success is underlined on the background of MS. Secondly, Nico enjoys (at least I think so) a very kind attitude from his older teammate. Maybe it's the age difference, but it seems to me Michael does not regard Nico as he would regard a potential rival in his younger years (or one of a similar age now, like Barichello f.e.).
And I would add that up to now it's mutual. At least nothing in the public domain.

#9912 black magic

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 00:08

can someone just demonstrate at what point clear feels capable of criticising schumacher. that would be the engineer involved winning what a single championship witha driver who struggled to win it despite being in clearly the best car on the grid, and inheeriting a number of wins when clearly uotpaced by either the ferrari or the mclaren only for superior reliabilty to hand him the victory

one has never been a fan and therefopre should have nothing to do with the team and one is a 7 wdc. I think the numbers speak for themselves.as I and others have pointed out that whilst schumacher made mistakes under pressure(and there is a driver who hasn't) he also has a number of wins when under pressure - in fact far more pressure than clear or villeneuve ever faced. try facing the pressure of not having the raw speed in your car vs your competitor but having to deliver the wins nonetheless, of having to push 110% to get a result.

well lets look at jocks and jacques results under that sort of pressure. oh thats right - zero wins over a number of seasons.

hmmm what happened guys? - could it be under pressure jacques gave up a little and jock produced zip?

#9913 Clatter

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:32

can someone just demonstrate at what point clear feels capable of criticising schumacher. that would be the engineer involved winning what a single championship witha driver who struggled to win it despite being in clearly the best car on the grid, and inheeriting a number of wins when clearly uotpaced by either the ferrari or the mclaren only for superior reliabilty to hand him the victory

one has never been a fan and therefopre should have nothing to do with the team and one is a 7 wdc. I think the numbers speak for themselves.as I and others have pointed out that whilst schumacher made mistakes under pressure(and there is a driver who hasn't) he also has a number of wins when under pressure - in fact far more pressure than clear or villeneuve ever faced. try facing the pressure of not having the raw speed in your car vs your competitor but having to deliver the wins nonetheless, of having to push 110% to get a result.

well lets look at jocks and jacques results under that sort of pressure. oh thats right - zero wins over a number of seasons.

hmmm what happened guys? - could it be under pressure jacques gave up a little and jock produced zip?


I'd say his experience in racing makes him more than qualified to pass comment. Just because you don't like the message doesn't make him wrong.

#9914 baddog

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:39

Clear was entitled to his views. of course if he said it now he would be fired... but he didnt.

He is also wrong, and its pretty much personal sniping.

#9915 Clatter

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:47

I don't think he was wrong.

#9916 Frans

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:03

So how do you explain away Michaels great driving between '91 and the start of '94? Os some of his race wins in 96-97?


91? Must have been lucky.

94: Illegal traction control, launch control, removing fuel safety ring, illegal fuel.

96-97: the Cheating team of 94 was back together at Ferrari. Yet he failed to win anything like title's.... ha-ha.

#9917 ivand911

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:15

91? Must have been lucky.

94: Illegal traction control, launch control, removing fuel safety ring, illegal fuel.

96-97: the Cheating team of 94 was back together at Ferrari. Yet he failed to win anything like title's.... ha-ha.

94-95: He won 2 titles in a row.
2000-2004: He won 5 titles in a row.
HA-HA :clap:
He failed to win another 3 titles. :rolleyes:

Edited by ivand911, 17 May 2011 - 09:17.


#9918 spacekid

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 11:48

91? Must have been lucky.

94: Illegal traction control, launch control, removing fuel safety ring, illegal fuel.

96-97: the Cheating team of 94 was back together at Ferrari. Yet he failed to win anything like title's.... ha-ha.


I know this is largely a waste of my time Frans, lucky for you I have some time to waste. I notice you carefully ignored the wording of my question as I was hoping to avoid the obvious 'oh in 1994 he was cheating, Fiarrari' and all of that nonsense. I specifically went for non championship winning seasons when Michael was driving on equal terms in lesser cars than his rivals and produced some stunning performances.

And the best you can come up with? He was 'lucky'. That certainly explains away a lot of great drives from those 5 years I chose. Plenty of other years to pick great drives from too. I presume you were watching back then and know what you're talking about?

#9919 spacekid

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 11:52

can someone just demonstrate at what point clear feels capable of criticising schumacher. that would be the engineer involved winning what a single championship witha driver who struggled to win it despite being in clearly the best car on the grid, and inheeriting a number of wins when clearly uotpaced by either the ferrari or the mclaren only for superior reliabilty to hand him the victory

one has never been a fan and therefopre should have nothing to do with the team and one is a 7 wdc. I think the numbers speak for themselves.as I and others have pointed out that whilst schumacher made mistakes under pressure(and there is a driver who hasn't) he also has a number of wins when under pressure - in fact far more pressure than clear or villeneuve ever faced. try facing the pressure of not having the raw speed in your car vs your competitor but having to deliver the wins nonetheless, of having to push 110% to get a result.

well lets look at jocks and jacques results under that sort of pressure. oh thats right - zero wins over a number of seasons.

hmmm what happened guys? - could it be under pressure jacques gave up a little and jock produced zip?


'm actually inclined to agree with Clear on this. Michael had many great qualities as a GP driver, but under pressure he clearly makes mistakes. Sometimes they are mistakes like stalling on the grid or coming off the circuit when under pressure from Damon in Adelaide '94, a rare driving error from Michael. Sometimes they are mistakes of judgement like Jerez. When Michael was at his best he rarely came under pressure because his driving kept him away from it, but as a long time fan I've seen him buckle under the pressure.

No ones perfect :p

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#9920 sharo

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 12:21

Even machines fail under pressure so why demand superhuman features from MS?
He, and for that matter any prominent driver not only in F1, has done mistakes pressure or not. But also has had great performances even under pressure. Even with a peak form is impossible for a person to act absolutely at the same level every time.

#9921 cilurnum

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 12:58

Isn't it what every driver is striving for?

Not really. If you keep hiding you just get found out later.

About lots of testing, can you give proofs? Because in this thread I personally found and put data/links that show how Badoer did the most of the testing, Barichello second and Michael was last. This was for 2001,2002 years if I remember correctly. So,there is data ,find it and prove you are right? And they all test a lot, other teams too.

Regardless, Michael has done God knows how many thousands of miles of testing, and the way the system worked was that Barrichello and especially Badoer would do test programs for Schumacher.

#9922 cilurnum

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 13:06

Clear was entitled to his views. of course if he said it now he would be fired... but he didnt.

He is also wrong, and its pretty much personal sniping.

Well, it doesn't look like he is wrong now and I'm sure he's having a bit of a chuckle to himself inside Mercedes because Schumacher has come back to prove him right. You look at what happens when Schumacher gets put under real pressure where he can't avoid it and the guy cracks.

1. Crashed into a wall when being chased by Damon Hill and was lucky to get away with it.

2. Crashes into Villeneuve and comes off worse when he came under pressure.

3. Got desperate at Monaco in 2006.

4. Petrov comes past in his Renault and he tries to stop him from getting past when the move was done. Loses his front wing.

The difference now is that the desperation is coming thick and fast, and the more desperate he becomes the further back he seems to go.

#9923 arknor

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 13:27

Well, it doesn't look like he is wrong now and I'm sure he's having a bit of a chuckle to himself inside Mercedes because Schumacher has come back to prove him right. You look at what happens when Schumacher gets put under real pressure where he can't avoid it and the guy cracks.

1. Crashed into a wall when being chased by Damon Hill and was lucky to get away with it.

2. Crashes into Villeneuve and comes off worse when he came under pressure.

3. Got desperate at Monaco in 2006.

4. Petrov comes past in his Renault and he tries to stop him from getting past when the move was done. Loses his front wing.

The difference now is that the desperation is coming thick and fast, and the more desperate he becomes the further back he seems to go.


1-2-3 can possibly be put down to pressure.

4, im not so sure about were constantly reminded how the driver cant even see where the front wing is and they basicly have to judge the distance to the car infront.

even so 3 moments out of a career that spans more than a decade isnt alot you would expect someone who cant handle pressure to do alot worse than schumacher managed in his career.

#9924 spacekid

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 13:33

Well, it doesn't look like he is wrong now and I'm sure he's having a bit of a chuckle to himself inside Mercedes because Schumacher has come back to prove him right. You look at what happens when Schumacher gets put under real pressure where he can't avoid it and the guy cracks.

1. Crashed into a wall when being chased by Damon Hill and was lucky to get away with it.

2. Crashes into Villeneuve and comes off worse when he came under pressure.

3. Got desperate at Monaco in 2006.

4. Petrov comes past in his Renault and he tries to stop him from getting past when the move was done. Loses his front wing.

The difference now is that the desperation is coming thick and fast, and the more desperate he becomes the further back he seems to go.


Now you see I tried to be reasonable about this because I thought you were having a sensible debate. I'm not a one-eyed fanboy, I agree that dealing with pressure is not Schumi's strong point, especially in tight championship situations, but throwing this in makes it look rather like you are bashing for the sake of it.


#9925 Sakae

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 14:08

Now you see I tried to be reasonable about this because I thought you were having a sensible debate. I'm not a one-eyed fanboy, I agree that dealing with pressure is not Schumi's strong point, especially in tight championship situations, but throwing this in makes it look rather like you are bashing for the sake of it.


Rubbish.

#9926 spacekid

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 14:30

Rubbish.


Care to expand on that?


#9927 Scotracer

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 14:55

Michael has been erratic in pressured circumstances before, but he's also shone: Suzuka 1998 he was having a brilliant race through the field only to be cruelly taken out by a spare piece of Tyrell bodywork. Or Brazil 2006 with a similar circumstance.

So, to pick a few and therefore state "Shumy sucks under pressure" is fallacious.

Edited by Scotracer, 17 May 2011 - 14:56.


#9928 Sakae

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 15:08

Precisely so; all drivers I know about (or care to remember since my begginings with F1) had a few bad days. Bad things happen to good people. Sweeping generalisation about Schumacher is not helpful and hard to swallow.

BTW - Hamilton is not immune - just recall him piling into Kimi at the pit exit. Is he also cracking under pressure?

#9929 arknor

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 15:11

Michael has been erratic in pressured circumstances before, but he's also shone: Suzuka 1998 he was having a brilliant race through the field only to be cruelly taken out by a spare piece of Tyrell bodywork. Or Brazil 2006 with a similar circumstance.

So, to pick a few and therefore state "Shumy sucks under pressure" is fallacious.

hungary 98 schumacher sucks under pressure :wave:

#9930 Scotracer

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 15:12

hungary 98 schumacher sucks under pressure :wave:


I had completely forgotten about that one. Add it to the list.



#9931 Afterburner

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 16:24

I had completely forgotten about that one. Add it to the list.

France 2004 and the four-stopper comes to mind as well. I still can't figure out how he managed that one.

#9932 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 17:18

France 2004 and the four-stopper comes to mind as well. I still can't figure out how he managed that one.


The sHort pit lane helped alot, and it was great that that happened. Love and miss those bridgestone tyres for the Ferrari. Yea what a great race that was!

#9933 SCUDmissile

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 17:26

Dont forget the 1996 Spanish GP. He had to get off the mark when coming to Ferrari, and as Hill lost his head, Schumi kept his.

Then there is and China 2006. Brazil was also a really good drive, even though he got a puncture.

I miss you in red, schumi :cry:

Edited by SCUDmissile, 17 May 2011 - 17:27.


#9934 Augurk

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 17:36

I think there never has been more pressure on him (or any driver) than in the last part of the 2000 season. 21 years of championless Ferrari history, all the tifosi, his own fans around the world, everything was hanging on him. He had to deliver. And he did.

Edited by Augurk, 17 May 2011 - 17:36.


#9935 ivand911

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 17:44

I think there never has been more pressure on him (or any driver) than in the last part of the 2000 season. 21 years of championless Ferrari history, all the tifosi, his own fans around the world, everything was hanging on him. He had to deliver. And he did.

I think in 2010 and 2011 he felt much more pressure than any time before. Or 41-42 year old guy can't handle the pressure like when he was 29-31 year old.


#9936 Skanka

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 17:47

I think there never has been more pressure on him (or any driver) than in the last part of the 2000 season. 21 years of championless Ferrari history, all the tifosi, his own fans around the world, everything was hanging on him. He had to deliver. And he did.


Yup. Monza 2000, Suzuka 2000 and Monza 2003 are for me one of the best examples of how well Schumacher could handle the pressure and deliver stunning performances.

#9937 Augurk

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 17:51

I think in 2010 and 2011 he felt much more pressure than any time before. Or 41-42 year old guy can't handle the pressure like when he was 29-31 year old.

I don't think so. He's been so relaxed all throughout last year, and the beginning of this year. Only in Turkey I saw him being agitated.

#9938 BMW4life

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 17:57

I had completely forgotten about that one. Add it to the list.


Monza, 2003, qualifying especially!

#9939 Sakae

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 18:06

I think in 2010 and 2011 he felt much more pressure than any time before. Or 41-42 year old guy can't handle the pressure like when he was 29-31 year old.

How was that demonstrated? I haven't seen him crying in a lonely corner somewhere behind the building.

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#9940 ivand911

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 18:27

How was that demonstrated? I haven't seen him crying in a lonely corner somewhere behind the building.

I doubt we will see anybody crying, ever. In one moment last year he said that cars were not the same and Haug confirm this, for me this was one moment when he just didn't wanted to keep this inside him anymore. There was also a lot of not happy interviews. When he was very tense. Expectations this year and last year, a not lower than in 2000. In 1997-2004 he was sure in his car, if he didn't perform well nobody will tell him to retire. Last year he hear this almost every race. Now after 4th race it is the same. It is pressure from everywhere. Not getting well with the car only aggravate the situation. So ,I don't think anything he have in Ferrari could be worse. He have good car, good team around him. All depended on him. Last year and this year not everything depend on him. We see a lot of stupid strategies, car problems, car "not the same", own mistakes. No way this will improve his belief in the car or himself or the team. I see the things this way.

Edited by ivand911, 17 May 2011 - 18:28.


#9941 Sakae

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 19:51

I do agree that he was not happy about Turkey; he stated so on his website. I would be rather careful to conclude that he is ready to hang his helmet, or that his resolve is any lower than before. In fact, I do suspect that his resolve went notch north. We will see.



#9942 F1 Tor.

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 20:39

If he gets a podium or two this year, I expect a lot of people to shut the $%^ up. He deserves the criticism he's getting, but I doubt half the haters here would man up and respect a great result, if it were to happen. Fin. :wave:

#9943 Muz Bee

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 21:04

I do agree that he was not happy about Turkey; he stated so on his website. I would be rather careful to conclude that he is ready to hang his helmet, or that his resolve is any lower than before. In fact, I do suspect that his resolve went notch north. We will see.

Agreed. Although very unconvinced about his career 2010/11 I think he has been stronger this year than last if you allow for one really poor race weekend at Turkey. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets near to Nico in Spain.

#9944 Birelman

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 22:00

If he gets a podium or two this year, I expect a lot of people to shut the $%^ up. He deserves the criticism he's getting, but I doubt half the haters here would man up and respect a great result, if it were to happen. Fin. :wave:

I'm a hater, and I have inmense respect for him, but that respect is quickly going down. His performance last year was pretty much what I expected of him, but this year he's been way sub-par so far

#9945 Sakae

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 22:48

How you can hate and respect someone at the same time? How does that works? I did not find MM very apealing on many fronts, but I respected certain knowledge he had on procedural matters at FIA. I do not like a few people, but hate them? That's pretty strong word, unless you use it losely. In MS case I think some people just grew into that "hate" role over the years, but today would have difficult time to rationally explain it.

Edited by Sakae, 17 May 2011 - 22:49.


#9946 Birelman

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 23:08

How you can hate and respect someone at the same time? How does that works? I did not find MM very apealing on many fronts, but I respected certain knowledge he had on procedural matters at FIA. I do not like a few people, but hate them? That's pretty strong word, unless you use it losely. In MS case I think some people just grew into that "hate" role over the years, but today would have difficult time to rationally explain it.

LOL why are you so literal!! How can you hate someone you don't even know. I'd consider myself anti-schumacher, but hater seems to be the going term for us right now, so I used it to describe myself LOL sorry to confuse you there! :drunk:

Ok now that I don't hate him, can I respect? lol

#9947 black magic

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 02:44

I accept baddog that clear is ientitled to his opnion.

like you though I believe it was silly and based on a clear long term antagonism because clear sdriver was forever struggling to beat schumacher.

I think for every example clear managed I could could come up with an example equally where despite pressure schumacher delivered.

is there a sportsman who has never failed under pressure? I mean isnt that the definition of what pressure really means. it is partly defined by its results.

eg bradman failing in his final test, tendulkar in the recent world cup. clear pressure situations but equally athlete fails to deliver. did they "crack" under the pressure or merely make a mistake. its rather arbitary and schumachers vulnerability was always one of those things that those who had to compete against the guy consoled themselves - that if only they could put him under rpessure he'd crack. it made it more attainable as a goal to beat the guy



#9948 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 09:26

I accept baddog that clear is ientitled to his opnion.

like you though I believe it was silly and based on a clear long term antagonism because clear sdriver was forever struggling to beat schumacher.

I think for every example clear managed I could could come up with an example equally where despite pressure schumacher delivered.

is there a sportsman who has never failed under pressure? I mean isnt that the definition of what pressure really means. it is partly defined by its results.

eg bradman failing in his final test, tendulkar in the recent world cup. clear pressure situations but equally athlete fails to deliver. did they "crack" under the pressure or merely make a mistake. its rather arbitary and schumachers vulnerability was always one of those things that those who had to compete against the guy consoled themselves - that if only they could put him under rpessure he'd crack. it made it more attainable as a goal to beat the guy

very smart points
is there a sportsman that has been under so much pressure-deciding fights to see if he cracks or not?

alonso crashed in japan 07-> lost the title there, hamilton lost the title with 2 races to go and an 18 point lead, vettel crashed into a bunch of people trying to pass.

everybody cracks under pressure, the thing is some get under pressure more often than others...

#9949 ivand911

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 09:43

I hope Clear will stay at factory this time. He is bringing Michael bad luck. :p

#9950 Massa

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 09:46

Well, it doesn't look like he is wrong now and I'm sure he's having a bit of a chuckle to himself inside Mercedes because Schumacher has come back to prove him right. You look at what happens when Schumacher gets put under real pressure where he can't avoid it and the guy cracks.

1. Crashed into a wall when being chased by Damon Hill and was lucky to get away with it.

2. Crashes into Villeneuve and comes off worse when he came under pressure.

3. Got desperate at Monaco in 2006.

4. Petrov comes past in his Renault and he tries to stop him from getting past when the move was done. Loses his front wing.

The difference now is that the desperation is coming thick and fast, and the more desperate he becomes the further back he seems to go.



Schumacher can't be perfect, everybody failed under pressure, EVERYBODY. Why you don't talk about the race who Schumacher won under massive pressure ? Imola 2003 ? Monza 98 ? Barcelona 96 ?Monza 96 ?

What is your point ? Why you **** up this thread ?