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#951 Flat and Out

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 17:54

F1 - Schumacher 4 races 10 points
WRC - Raikkonen 4 races 14 points

I rest my case.

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#952 tractionman

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 18:06

In light of his present struggles the depth of Schumacher's ability does seem shallow compared to Prost or Senna in relation to the type of car he needs in order to go quick. Brawn however probably knows exactly what is required and I wont be surprised to see the old man back in front by the next race or two. I hated the guy for all his career but I guess its a sense of nostalgia- I am starting to hope that he does better.


#953 Terrentius

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 18:37

F1 - Schumacher 4 races 10 points
WRC - Raikkonen 4 races 14 points

I rest my case.


Erm...could you just pick it up for a second and explain what the hell you're talking about? And I would like the reply in a style that continues this awful metaphor. Thank you.


In light of his present struggles the depth of Schumacher's ability does seem shallow compared to Prost or Senna in relation to the type of car he needs in order to go quick. Brawn however probably knows exactly what is required and I wont be surprised to see the old man back in front by the next race or two. I hated the guy for all his career but I guess its a sense of nostalgia- I am starting to hope that he does better.


Yes, it's weird, isn't. I could not stand the guy and he nearly ended my interest in F1. Now, I'm actually hoping he turns it around :rolleyes:



Edited by Terrentius, 18 April 2010 - 18:42.


#954 Muz Bee

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 21:42

Actually, it's much easier to learn something when going into it blank, in stead of learning something new whilst trying to step away from old habbits.

If you perform in a specific way for 16 years, then take a 3 year break and have to learn a completely different way of performing, it's hard to let go of the old habbits.


Hilarious! :rotfl: So rookies should have the advantage this year? The excuses for Michael are stacking up, strangely Michael isn't the one making them from what I can see. I don't doubt Michael will find a better balance in the car once they get the upgrades sorted in Europe. And I don't doubt that today was not just a reflection of Michael's driving - the car looked evil in the turns but good under brakes. Fact is he is getting spanked by his teammate in every department every weekend.


#955 RSNS

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 22:08

I read somewhere, must have been from the same book, about the events that led to Fangio decide it was enough. You happen to have those quotes?


It was at Reims in 1958. Fangio was driving a Maserati with different dampers than usual and he was feeling the car to be wrong; he failed to get to the first row; in the race he managed to get behind Hawthorn, who was leading, but his clutch pedal broke clean, so he had to engage gears by ear. He eventually finished fourth, and Hawthorn, out of respect, refrained from lapping him. When he stopped the car Fangio said: 'it's over'.

He had had some trouble with races before, even if he was semi-retired as far as f1 was concerned.

What he says is that he thought it stupid to be trying, at his age, to cope with people 20 years his juniors who had a career in front of him and not behind him.

So he retired.

#956 iceraikkonen

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 22:56

I Don't Know if this has been posted before but it's give a small light in the dark tunnel
http://f1insiders.wo...for-schumacher/


#957 JimmyStew

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 23:09

It was at Reims in 1958. Fangio was driving a Maserati with different dampers than usual and he was feeling the car to be wrong; he failed to get to the first row; in the race he managed to get behind Hawthorn, who was leading, but his clutch pedal broke clean, so he had to engage gears by ear. He eventually finished fourth, and Hawthorn, out of respect, refrained from lapping him. When he stopped the car Fangio said: 'it's over'.

He had had some trouble with races before, even if he was semi-retired as far as f1 was concerned.

What he says is that he thought it stupid to be trying, at his age, to cope with people 20 years his juniors who had a career in front of him and not behind him.

So he retired.

It's so sad to see Schumacher struggling and floundering. I agree with Jackie Stewart's assessment - that he was forced into retiring earlier than he wanted to because of Ferrari's (ie de Montezemolo's) political games in 2006, signing Kimi as a de facto replacement for Michael. And look how well that worked out in the long run. So, Grand Prix racing is, as Jackie Stewart puts it, "unfinished business" for Schumacher. It's just such a shame that he left it too long before returning.

#958 RSNS

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 23:47

I Don't Know if this has been posted before but it's give a small light in the dark tunnel
http://f1insiders.wo...for-schumacher/


I had not read that before. If it's true, it's a possible explanation. Let's wait and see.


#959 primer

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 00:18

He did nothing wrong today other than drive slowly.


In F1 driving slowly is the biggest 'wrong' you could do.

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#960 bourbon

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 01:00

Fangio on Nuvolari, his idol:

"... when I saw him going round [...] and being beaten by me and the other young drivers, I felt a great sadness. The sight had such an effect on me that there and then I promised myself that I would never be reduced to such a state, and that I would give up racing as soon as younger drivers began to go faster than me... The Nuvolari I saw [...] was not the man I had idolized [...] It was a great blow to my illusions".
Fangio and Carozzo, My Racing Life, p. 271.


While I admire Fangio, his opinion here is idiotic. How can one's illusions be blown unless they are unreal in the first place? It is Fangio's illusions that required re-working, not Nuvolari's decisions in life. Live and let live, people do not live to fulfill your illusions or make your life special, they do it to enhance their own.

Michael shouldn't listen to anyone and he should do whatever he wants, as long as it is possible. And I am his biggest critic because I believe Schumi is a liar and a cheat - but I would stand behind him 100% in the decision to return, race and do as he pleases in the sport which he helped so much (there is no bad press - even if many of us hated him - one cannot deny how much he did for the sport).

political games in 2006, signing Kimi as a de facto replacement for Michael. And look how well that worked out in the long run.


A WDC for Kimi after coming damn close for 2 years and driving the hell out of a bad car for 2 more years; 2 WCC's two years in a row after none for two years - uh, yeah, it worked out very nicely for Ferrari actually - so what was your point? The bad year, 2009, Michael was there, but all the kings horses and men couldn't put that beast right again - the F60 was a dog and Schumi knew it first.

Edited by bourbon, 19 April 2010 - 01:10.


#961 Owen

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 08:49

Pretty despondent comments after the race. Maybe Barcelona and the big Merc updates will move him up the pack and improve his humour/outlook.

#962 Frans

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 09:03

gniffle

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#963 Paolo

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 09:04

All this "give him time to adapt" stuff is unexplainable.

Hamilton as a rookie was on 2 times WDC Alonso's pace almost immediately.

Schumi 2.0 cannot match the win-virgin Rosberg.

Really sorry to say that, but he's finished.

Still a very good driver, probably, but a shadow of the former self.


#964 F.M.

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 09:26

I Don't Know if this has been posted before but it's give a small light in the dark tunnel
http://f1insiders.wo...for-schumacher/

he won't get a completely different chassis (they are homologated), but a new one of the same spec.

"It's not the difficult corners, but the technically simple ones [where he is struggling]. Until now he has been getting closer and closer to Nico, so what happened in China is totally against the trend."

So slow was Schumacher that Mercedes' Norbert Haug suspects a chassis flaw, telling the German press on Sunday evening that a new W01 will be supplied to his driver in Barcelona.

"Give us a chance to look at that [theory] and we can come up with a good explanation," he said.


http://en.espnf1.com...tory/15016.html

#965 slaveceru

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:44

All this "give him time to adapt" stuff is unexplainable.

Hamilton as a rookie was on 2 times WDC Alonso's pace almost immediately.

Schumi 2.0 cannot match the win-virgin Rosberg.

Really sorry to say that, but he's finished.

Still a very good driver, probably, but a shadow of the former self.


You forgot one small thing he had more test miles then Schumacher this year, and also he was a rookie so he did not yet developed his stile of driving. To point out one big thing this new drivers like Vettel hamilton ... also grew side by side with simulators which play a major role in now days when there is such a restriciton in testing. MS is an old school he has to have a good filling with his car first so I probabbly think he is not used to use simmulator as a contributor to testing.

#966 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 11:55

When Mika Hakkinen was a 'win virgin' as you put it, nobody doubted he was one of the best drivers out there. I think Rosberg is coming of age this year, i'm sure his dad gave him some advice on how to approach the situation, particularly after his own experiences with Mr Mansell and Mr Prost ;)

Schumacher is underperforming but I don't think its as bad as it looks, he just needs to find the setup that he can drive.


#967 libano

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 12:11

He'll be back. Shanghai was drastic but Barcelona will be a fresh race. I still believe we'll see MS ahead of Rosberg within 2 races. Talent doesn't just disappear.

#968 Frans

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 12:13

:lol:

#969 Flat and Out

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 12:31

Erm...could you just pick it up for a second and explain what the hell you're talking about? And I would like the reply in a style that continues this awful metaphor. Thank you.


So you didn't like it? I thought it was a classic.

Well anyways, I just hoped to add my share to the utterly ridiculous arguments when comparing the drivers.


#970 Sakae

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 16:38

All this "give him time to adapt" stuff is unexplainable.

Hamilton as a rookie was on 2 times WDC Alonso's pace almost immediately.

Schumi 2.0 cannot match the win-virgin Rosberg.

Really sorry to say that, but he's finished.

Still a very good driver, probably, but a shadow of the former self.

As a hard core fan of his, I am struggling to find an explanation what's happening at MGP vis-a-vis Michael. I am hesitant to dismiss claim that car/tires/setup is the only factor which is pulling him back and down. The same setup on both cars doesn't mean that its suits them both. Nico likes it, Michael is not.

Drivability characteristics combined as "feel" is probably off mark what he wants. Secondly, all races to-date were to some extend abnormal. We see this how drivers do finish races, and what kind of yo-yo thing we have at the front on the score board.

Three years being out of the car, and not being able to do his customary 11,000 testing km prior March season kick-off is another factor against him. Last one, lack of testing between races allows very little to do practical runs, and to find in FP3 and/or during Quali that you have a set-up problem, and cannot fix it prior race has to count as one of the most hated regulations on my list.

There is a lot on his plate he has to handle, including public bashing by those who like to see his fall to be complete. My trust however rests on believe, that he will be finish when he and his Employer tells us that he is finish. Until such time we continue to harbor to the next race, and hope for the best. Man changes with time, but he will not go from being a genius to complete mediocre vagabond without reasons. For now I give him benefit of doubt, and think that most of the reasons are external to him. Once he has a car set up to his liking, and he cannot reach top positions, then we will know that age has kicked in. Today it is too soon to make such claims.

Edited by MiPe, 19 April 2010 - 16:42.


#971 B747

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Posted 19 April 2010 - 23:52

:lol:




¿enjoying it, eh?

do it while it last (this golden oportunity won't last much) :cat:

#972 Owen

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 08:16

On the BBC F1 forum Norbert Haug seemed to suggest that something could be wrong or incorrect with Michael's car. Anyone know if that is the case?

#973 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 09:48

On the BBC F1 forum Norbert Haug seemed to suggest that something could be wrong or incorrect with Michael's car. Anyone know if that is the case?

Yep. They found a huge problem between the seat and the steering wheel.

#974 Owen

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 09:52

Yep. They found a huge problem between the seat and the steering wheel.

the nut behind the wheel?

#975 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 09:54

the nut behind the wheel?

Add a C there and switch two letters and you are right :smoking:

#976 RSNS

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:00

the nut behind the wheel?


No, he means the driver: Schadenfreude.

#977 bonjon1979

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:11

This may be an overly simplistic observation, but isn't it significant that Schumacher last raced in the era of traction control? In shanghai he was constantly spinning up his rears coming out of the slow corners which started a vicious circle. The more he span up the tyres the more grip they lost the more he span them up. Most of the drivers on the grid have had a couple of years getting used to the loss of traction control where as schumacher is having to learn to drive without it on new tyres with massively different cars. Is it just too much for him to be able to cope with?

Edited by bonjon1979, 20 April 2010 - 10:11.


#978 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:13

This may be an overly simplistic observation, but isn't it significant that Schumacher last raced in the era of traction control? In shanghai he was constantly spinning up his rears coming out of the slow corners which started a vicious circle. The more he span up the tyres the more grip they lost the more he span them up. Most of the drivers on the grid have had a couple of years getting used to the loss of traction control where as schumacher is having to learn to drive without it on new tyres with massively different cars. Is it just too much for him to be able to cope with?

Yeah, it might be a problem for Schumacher considering he spent most of his career with TC.



#979 Jan.W

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 10:31

Yeah, it might be a problem for Schumacher considering he spent most of his career with TC.

1991-2000 : No TC

2001-2006 : TC.

Most of his career, huh ?

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#980 Muz Bee

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:07

Yeah, it might be a problem for Schumacher considering he spent most of his career with TC.

And Petrov had plenty to learn about a modern F1 car and aced Michael on Sunday in terrible conditions made for Schumie. :confused:


#981 karlth

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:11

He lacks confidence in corner entry, the front of the car lacks grip so he cannot hook onto the apex as he's used to.

I expect to see a much faster Schumacher in Barcelona with the redesigned Mercedes.

#982 Massa_f1

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:20

1991-2000 : No TC

2001-2006 : TC.

Most of his career, huh ?



Exactly proof that the poster has no idea what he is talking about. I just laugh at people like that.

#983 Grenada

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:36

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but look at some of these quotes from the international media - I thought the British media were brutal!

http://paddocktalk.c...ory-133630.html

The Cologne publication Express published a photo-shopped image of a snail with the seven time world champion's head and cap, while France's Auto Hebdo observed that in China "the former rain king seemed lost".

Bild newspaper's headline read: "Rain God? Schumi got flooded!", while Italy's La Gazzetta dello Sport asked of Schumacher's return: "Why did he do it?"

The sports newspaper Tuttosport said Schumacher "is only a shadow of himself", while another sports daily Corriere dello Sport called him "an old lion attacked by a group of young and hungry animals".

The broadsheet La Stampa said: "F1 without overtaking? Just ask Schumacher, who was passed constantly", while the major La Repubblica said the German "is no longer in the league of the best formula one drivers".

Hamburg's Abendblatt called Schumacher a "learner driver", while the Frankfurter Rundschau blasted his "horrible performance" and Austria's Kleine Zeitung said he had been "humiliated" in China.


He really shouldn't have come back.


#984 Jazza

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:37

Exactly proof that the poster has no idea what he is talking about. I just laugh at people like that.


Actually, its pretty well accepted that although they didn't have traction control between 94-to the start of 2001, some teams certainly had aids helping them in power delivery. It may not have been full blown active traction control, but the drivers did have help. I remember a quote from MS himself, where he said something like... we have something thats like traction control, but its not traction control... during the late 90's when many were accusing Ferrari of having illegal traction control.

This year is possibly the only time in his F1 career since his rookie season that he has had to have complete control of the throttle.

#985 Owen

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:46

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but look at some of these quotes from the international media - I thought the British media were brutal!

http://paddocktalk.c...ory-133630.html



He really shouldn't have come back.

Some are saying worst sporting comeback. Ever.
But I'm holding judgement until after Barcelona, big upgrade coming, could be much more to his liking. And the old Schu may make an appearance.

#986 Ruf

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 13:25

Actually, its pretty well accepted that although they didn't have traction control between 94-to the start of 2001, some teams certainly had aids helping them in power delivery. It may not have been full blown active traction control, but the drivers did have help.

That is called "engine mapping" and every team had it and they still have it these days (altough not to the same extent).

#987 Jazza

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 14:12

That is called "engine mapping" and every team had it and they still have it these days (altough not to the same extent).


Yes, but there is engine mapping and then there is driver aids. The top teams were clearly pushing the envelope in this area. It may not have been traction control, but I'm sure it would be a lot easier to spin your wheels in a Minardi than in a McLaren 10 years ago. Back then the engines characteristics were changing from one corner to the next depending on how much power was needed. This was going a long way beyond a simple engine map... it was basically taking most of the work out of the drivers right foot. Hence the tighter rule changes during the 2000 season before a compete u turn in 2001 letting them do what ever they want.

#988 Dragonfly

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 14:17

IIRC TC was reintroduced after Ferrari demonstrated to FIA that they can do it by means of engine mapping.

#989 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 14:19

The thread is about Michael Schumacher, if you want to discuss TC please find an appropriate thread for it.

#990 Hacklerf

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 15:54

After watching F1 for more than 20 years, you learn to never doubt the master, he will be back and demonstrate what we know he is capable of

#991 bourbon

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 16:47

Yeah, I am still not convinced

1. Heidfeld the long term back up driver to Rosberg/Schumi?
2. Rosberg's super reliable car v. Michael's lemon, which just hasn't gotten the press of Vettel's initial woes with Lucious Liz
3. Michael's lack of aggression except in "interesting" moments. (The Ultimate battle between Schumi Prime and Omega Pirate Jaime will be made into a Lego vid game)
4. Michael's prowess in he and Vettel's recent non-F1 one off competition and his king of Karts standing (even if not always unqualified champ)
5. Michael's strange Qually where he greens it like the others in 1&2 and in 3 forgets what a Q lap is...
6. Nico's progress has been outstanding, Michael has had no progress whatsoever at all
7. No matter what MSC's problem (reliability, poor performance, fluke, etc.) the response remains that he is adjusting...

I am not much of a conspiracy theorist, but this situation does have me raising my eyebrows quite a bit in wonder.








#992 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 17:22

Yeah, I am still not convinced

1. Heidfeld the long term back up driver to Rosberg/Schumi?
2. Rosberg's super reliable car v. Michael's lemon, which just hasn't gotten the press of Vettel's initial woes with Lucious Liz
3. Michael's lack of aggression except in "interesting" moments. (The Ultimate battle between Schumi Prime and Omega Pirate Jaime will be made into a Lego vid game)
4. Michael's prowess in he and Vettel's recent non-F1 one off competition and his king of Karts standing (even if not always unqualified champ)
5. Michael's strange Qually where he greens it like the others in 1&2 and in 3 forgets what a Q lap is...
6. Nico's progress has been outstanding, Michael has had no progress whatsoever at all
7. No matter what MSC's problem (reliability, poor performance, fluke, etc.) the response remains that he is adjusting...

I am not much of a conspiracy theorist, but this situation does have me raising my eyebrows quite a bit in wonder.


do you mean they are building up Nico's confidence? With the aid of MS?



#993 Flat and Out

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 17:56

After watching F1 for more than 20 years, you learn to never doubt the master, he will be back and demonstrate what we know he is capable of


What? Is Prost going to make a comeback? Great.


#994 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 18:08

What? Is Prost going to make a comeback? Great.


why not? they can organize for themselves an old boy's league, instead of Porsche Supercup, they can race on F1 venues, before the normal races. evrybody over 40. Even Alonso could cheer for them. :D



#995 race

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 20:24

but the logic that since rosberg is faster than him now he must have not been that good throughout his carreer doesn't make any sense, schumacher fan or not. try putting sampras on court with nadal...he'll probably get smashed. lack of practice and age never help the cause in top sport.


Not that I disagree, but a poorly chosen comparison. Sampras actually beat Federer in an exhibition match not long ago (2008 or 2009) and Federer said Sampras would immediately be a top 5 player if he joined the tour again.

I think Schumi might be suffering a bit of the same as Kimi was under the current regs. The front end isn't behaving like he wants so he can't drive like he used to.

#996 Kenaltgr

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Posted 20 April 2010 - 21:11

Ross Brawn
“Michael's problems are difficult to understand,” revealed the Englishman. “It's not the difficult corners, but the technically simple slow cornes."

In other words the post-2006 standard ECU and ban on traction control. MS was fantasizing of 1994 again but with the standard ECU and no loopholes, the dream of him being the only car with traction control has gone up in flames. Shame. At least we get to see his real speed in a car.

#997 slaveceru

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:20

Ross Brawn
“Michael's problems are difficult to understand,” revealed the Englishman. “It's not the difficult corners, but the technically simple slow cornes."

In other words the post-2006 standard ECU and ban on traction control. MS was fantasizing of 1994 again but with the standard ECU and no loopholes, the dream of him being the only car with traction control has gone up in flames. Shame. At least we get to see his real speed in a car.


I personally think that TC is least of worries for Scumacher. He is the master in go-kart cars and these cars do not have TC. His pace to Rosberg is around 0.2 - 0.3 sec and nothing more. The major questions which all are asking is what has happened to Schumacher in China and the machanics and Schumacher have to have the answer to that question because of future races. They will try to solve this problem. So whatever the reason was stated hare on his lack off pace in China Gp is only speculation so leave it to that. If there is a crack in chasey and this became bigger throughout the qualification and race this could explain the difference between China Gp and other races. First we have to know that Scumi him self told that he will not progress in the race so it is clear that he had some serous problem in the setting of his car. He predicted the result in China Gp. If they do not find the source of the problems in setting the car for China Gp than he has some serious problems with this car and I think that he will be behind his team mate trough the season.

#998 bourbon

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:56

do you mean they are building up Nico's confidence? With the aid of MS?


Well that is one idea. But a little far fetched, expensive and time consuming a way to get the most out of Nico. No, I think that any help Nico got from the situation is just an unintended positive. He was doing well in the Williams - why wouldn't he do better in the Mercedes? It isn't like he is suddenly winning - he has merely moved up a notch, from 4-5-6 with a couple of podiums to 2-3-4 with more podiums (on average of course). So the fact that he is given this extra boost was not THE plan, but just a nice little "extra".

No the conspiracy is even worse. Michael is doing it on purpose for F1. What is a more compelling story? Michael comes back and is back on top fighting with the top guys - or Michael comes back struggling mightily, barely able to produce a mediocre few points, fighting with the likes of Jaime...and then suddenly getting his old form back?

Not entirely serious here, just saying...

#999 marchi-91

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:07

Forgive me if this has already been posted, but look at some of these quotes from the international media - I thought the British media were brutal!

http://paddocktalk.c...ory-133630.html



He really shouldn't have come back.


If you really think that any champions sports person gives a flying **** about what a bunch of arse sitting media junkies can bullshit about, then you're sadly deluded. The only person Michael has to prove anything to is himself. He's been there and done all of that. So much so that not another driver on the grid comes even close to what he's done.

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#1000 Konsta

Konsta
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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:07

While MS´s performance thus far has been sub-par, I have to wonder the ruthlessness of Italian media. Funny as some of the punclines were, I cannot help but wonder if they couldn´t have been left unwritten.