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#10351 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 14:14

I recall a recent survey-thingy done on Romanian TV, wherein it was established that Schumacher is still the most beloved driver off the grid.

Edited by PoliFanAthic, 02 June 2011 - 14:14.


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#10352 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:05

One thing people have forgotten is that when MS retired in 2006 and Hamilton came along we all wished he had stayed in F1 so we could see MS v LH! And thankfully we have since 2010! I am grateful though I wish MS were racing in a faster car. :)

Strange though, he could of been racing for Ferrari since and have had at least 9 titles now, maybe 10. Strange....

#10353 ivand911

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:12

One thing people have forgotten is that when MS retired in 2006 and Hamilton came along we all wished he had stayed in F1 so we could see MS v LH! And thankfully we have since 2010! I am grateful though I wish MS were racing in a faster car. :)

Strange though, he could of been racing for Ferrari since and have had at least 9 titles now, maybe 10. Strange....

He lost three titles even before that. When he break his legs and even Irvine have chance for WDC(1999), 1997, 2006. So, he could be at least 12 time WDC now. :drunk:


#10354 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:15

He lost three titles even before that. When he break his legs and even Irvine have chance for WDC(1999), 1997, 2006. So, he could be at least 12 time WDC now. :drunk:


Ya but he retired in 2006, and it turned out is wasn't necessary! 4 years wasted...

#10355 BRK

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:33

Yeah, he could've been a 10-11 time champ even if his career had continued along the same path and he had retired in 2006. If he hadn't run wide at Jerez, if he hadn't stalled or had that puncture at Suzuka, if Silverstone '99 had never happened, if his engine hadn't failed him in 06....Whole lot of ifs, just the way it is in F1.

Sadly we may never see a driver of his calibre and ability in F1 for a long, long time to come, no one that's quite that much better than the rest as he was. Should be good for a few years when drivers like SV and LH on the current grid hit their own peaks, for instance, but still some way behind the Schumacher-Senna-Prost axis of dominance.



#10356 tifosiMac

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:40

Sadly we may never see a driver of his calibre and ability in F1 for a long, long time to come, no one that's quite that much better than the rest as he was. Should be good for a few years when drivers like SV and LH on the current grid hit their own peaks, for instance, but still some way behind the Schumacher-Senna-Prost axis of dominance.

I'm of the opinion the cars are alot closer in performance now at the top of the grid and we haven't seen as many WDC's on the grid since the 80's. Schumachers era arrived at the end of a strong period and no doubt he is a superb driver, but he didn't face a grid like we see now for much of his career IMO. I wish these guys had have been around throughout the 90's as we'd have have many multi WDC's, with Michael mixing it right up. :)

#10357 BRK

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 08:48

Well that's the thing right there -it would be very naive to think F1 passed through a vacuum for the entire period that Schumacher was in F1, all you'd have to do is to take MS out of the equation and consider how many different WDCs we would have had and how competitive the field may have been. It's a bit unfortunate that there's still a few people that have that opinion because Schumacher was so much better than the others or because he dominated F1 throughout his career.

#10358 broooz

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 09:23

I'm of the opinion the cars are alot closer in performance now at the top of the grid and we haven't seen as many WDC's on the grid since the 80's. Schumachers era arrived at the end of a strong period and no doubt he is a superb driver, but he didn't face a grid like we see now for much of his career IMO. I wish these guys had have been around throughout the 90's as we'd have have many multi WDC's, with Michael mixing it right up. :)

I think that in his prime (1994-2002 or so) Schumacher was so good that he made the then-grid look weak just as he would make any grid look weak back then. The generation change arrived by 2006 and now Schumacher is merely a recreative driver in his 40s driving for fun and joy....

Edited by broooz, 03 June 2011 - 09:24.


#10359 ivand911

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 09:29

He is still good enough to overtake Lewis(with inferior car) and Nico in Monaco. :p And he is still good enough to drive in F1 now. Which is a lot.

Edited by ivand911, 03 June 2011 - 09:34.


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#10360 broooz

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 09:46

He is still good enough to overtake Lewis(with inferior car) and Nico in Monaco. :p And he is still good enough to drive in F1 now. Which is a lot.

Yes....all of the past greatness simply cannot be lost. In a car like Red Bull of 2011 or Brawn of 2009, he would still be a winner (and Webber is no, so far, for example).

Edited by broooz, 03 June 2011 - 09:46.


#10361 spacekid

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 11:30

Well that's the thing right there -it would be very naive to think F1 passed through a vacuum for the entire period that Schumacher was in F1, all you'd have to do is to take MS out of the equation and consider how many different WDCs we would have had and how competitive the field may have been. It's a bit unfortunate that there's still a few people that have that opinion because Schumacher was so much better than the others or because he dominated F1 throughout his career.


Its the same everywhere. I recently popped onto a tennis forum ahead of the French open (not desperately interested, a casual fan at best) and there was a debate going on that Roger Federer was never a great player at all, and only won so much because he had no much competition. Everyone else playing while Rog was at his peak was rubbish.

Now, Federer at 29 is getting on for a tennis player and has clearly lost a touch of his zip around the court and so is 'only' reaching semi-finals instead of finals and winning. He may win another Slam event, he may not. But this apparently 'proves' that now there are better players in the field than in the last 10 years and he should never have won anything. Some of the posts you could swap the names around and put onto either forum and not notice the difference.

Its madness. I have no idea what compels people to reach those conclusions, but it doesn't seem to be restricted only to MS/motor sport in general.

#10362 oetzi

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 11:50

Blind prejudice, mainly. And a desire to look 'informed', or 'clever'.

You're right, it does happen everywhere, but I think Schumacher suffered particularly badly as a (nearly stereotypical from a British point of view) German in a sport based mainly in the UK, with a press based mainly in the UK, for the perception that he cheated the quintessentially English Williams and Hill out of a title, and for being the first great driver to emerge after the 'irreplaceable, unmatchable' Senna.



#10363 arknor

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 15:28

Well that's the thing right there -it would be very naive to think F1 passed through a vacuum for the entire period that Schumacher was in F1, all you'd have to do is to take MS out of the equation and consider how many different WDCs we would have had and how competitive the field may have been. It's a bit unfortunate that there's still a few people that have that opinion because Schumacher was so much better than the others or because he dominated F1 throughout his career.

webber and button didnt stand out imo back then... alonso was always good.

its stupid to suggest the grid was weaker back then ... alonso is still rated as maybe the best driver on the grid now ,webber almost won a championship and he was never above average back then... button never stood out

#10364 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 16:52

I have a question


How good is Michael Schumacher NOW?


I think head to head, he would be the equal of Button and Webber.

#10365 jav

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 17:14

I have a question


How good is Michael Schumacher NOW?


I think head to head, he would be the equal of Button and Webber.



I think it's difficult to quantify other than IMHO- he's not what he once was. I think he's still quite good but I don't see the youthful hunger to win at all costs. There's a more mature desire to win... perhaps even a more calculating and structured approach to getting there- but not the unbridled will to be at the front like a Lewis Hamilton.

I Like that he's more self critical these days... often looking inward first as opposed to laying blame elsewhere first like.....Hamilton.

Comparisons to Button or Webber ar tough due to car differences but against Nico, I'd say Micheal is better in some areas, worse in others and as a whole- probably a little below Nico at this point. He does seem to be making up ground though. Long term- I don't see his star rising. That apex has come and gone. I don't think he's the best driver on the grid but he's far from being the worst. He deserves the drive and... a better car.

Edited by jav, 03 June 2011 - 17:18.


#10366 Poep

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 17:23

I have a question


How good is Michael Schumacher NOW?


I think head to head, he would be the equal of Button and Webber.

Well, I think you (and a lot of other people) underestimate Schumi a lot.

Since the 2010 version of MS not only beat Button and Vettel at the Race of Champions, but also Kubica, Vettel and others in a karting competition a year before, I can definitly tell you he is better than those two you just named.

I still think that MS is the best driver on the grid. Yes, even better than Hamilton or Alonso.

I know what you think, where does that leave Rosberg? Well, I think he is a really top driver. But don't forget, for Nico to beat MS everything has to be perfect for him. What we have seen since MS comeback is that not everything went perfect for Michael. When it does, he beats Nico. So you could say, Nico and Michael are very evenly matched. Still, I think Michael is 0,1 sec faster than Nico when things go perfect for both drivers.

p.s. And MS in his prime? Well,...........................................I 'll tell you another time...... :cool:

#10367 zack1994

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 17:31

Well, I think you (and a lot of other people) underestimate Schumi a lot.

Since the 2010 version of MS not only beat Button and Vettel at the Race of Champions, but also Kubica, Vettel and others in a karting competition a year before, I can definitly tell you he is better than those two you just named.

I still think that MS is the best driver on the grid. Yes, even better than Hamilton or Alonso.

I know what you think, where does that leave Rosberg? Well, I think he is a really top driver. But don't forget, for Nico to beat MS everything has to be perfect for him. What we have seen since MS comeback is that not everything went perfect for Michael. When it does, he beats Nico. So you could say, Nico and Michael are very evenly matched. Still, I think Michael is 0,1 sec faster than Nico when things go perfect for both drivers.

p.s. And MS in his prime? Well,...........................................I 'll tell you another time...... :cool:

Micheal beating people in kart events and race of champions doesnt mean he'll be faster than them in an f1 car. Obviously micheal is not the same driver he was not even close, so do i think schumacher the 2010-2011 version would beat the likes of alonso, hamilton, button etc now, no i dont as i said not the same driver but micheal in his prime yes i do.

Edited by zack1994, 03 June 2011 - 17:32.


#10368 ivand911

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 17:44

Micheal beating people in kart events and race of champions doesnt mean he'll be faster than them in an f1 car. Obviously micheal is not the same driver he was not even close, so do i think schumacher the 2010-2011 version would beat the likes of alonso, hamilton, button etc now, no i dont as i said not the same driver but micheal in his prime yes i do.

We will never know. I can't compare him with those guys because of car difference. Which is shame, because he is not here forever. Better car and he would give his fans and people who love F1 more things to enjoy.
I see something interesting here around 0:23, I didn't know Michael pass Rubens, but I don't know what happen he seams like he was having some car problem after that and Rubens pass him?
http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage
He pass Rubens easily and suddenly Rubens pass him easily going down. Strange, I think this is the same lap when Michael stopped? This is the lap where Massa crashed.

Edited by ivand911, 03 June 2011 - 17:53.


#10369 Spa95

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 17:46

I see something interesting here around 0:23, I didn't know Michael pass Rubens, but I don't know what happen he seams like he was having some car problem after that and Rubens pass him?
http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage
He pass Rubens easily and sudden Rubens pass him easily going down. Strange, I think this is the same lap Michael stopped? This the lap where Massa crashed.


Probably because of the yellow flag...

#10370 ivand911

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 17:51

Probably because of the yellow flag...

Aah, yes, he give him position back.


#10371 spacekid

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 18:02

Well, I think you (and a lot of other people) underestimate Schumi a lot.

Since the 2010 version of MS not only beat Button and Vettel at the Race of Champions, but also Kubica, Vettel and others in a karting competition a year before, I can definitly tell you he is better than those two you just named.

I still think that MS is the best driver on the grid. Yes, even better than Hamilton or Alonso.

I know what you think, where does that leave Rosberg? Well, I think he is a really top driver. But don't forget, for Nico to beat MS everything has to be perfect for him. What we have seen since MS comeback is that not everything went perfect for Michael. When it does, he beats Nico. So you could say, Nico and Michael are very evenly matched. Still, I think Michael is 0,1 sec faster than Nico when things go perfect for both drivers.

p.s. And MS in his prime? Well,...........................................I 'll tell you another time...... :cool:


I wish I could agree with your post Poep, I really do, but unfortunately I just can't. Schumi is still good, and he can do some stuff in ROC and karts but... thats not the same as F1 and I'm not sure the competitions are comparable for various reasons.

Concentrating on F1, and specifically Rosberg as he is the best barometer, yes Michael has had some problems that have made him look 'bad' in some races. He's been very unlucky in a few quali sessions with KERS and DRS issues.

But having watched all the quali and raced and most of the practise sessions since his comeback, Rosberg is almost always about 0.3-0.5s ahead of Schumi on raw single lap pace. Sometimes he's managed to be a bit better and pull something out of the bag, but almost always that gap has been there across almost all sessions. Its too consistent to just be a coincidence.

Schumi still looks like he can cut it in the races, and I don't think he's lost any of his desire to win. Given his age and time away from the sport I actually think its quite a remarkable achievement from him. To have lost something and still be 'good' shows just how good he was at his peak imo.

#10372 MightyMoose

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 18:48

I wish I could agree with your post Poep, I really do, but unfortunately I just can't. Schumi is still good, and he can do some stuff in ROC and karts but... thats not the same as F1 and I'm not sure the competitions are comparable for various reasons.

Concentrating on F1, and specifically Rosberg as he is the best barometer, yes Michael has had some problems that have made him look 'bad' in some races. He's been very unlucky in a few quali sessions with KERS and DRS issues.

But having watched all the quali and raced and most of the practise sessions since his comeback, Rosberg is almost always about 0.3-0.5s ahead of Schumi on raw single lap pace. Sometimes he's managed to be a bit better and pull something out of the bag, but almost always that gap has been there across almost all sessions. Its too consistent to just be a coincidence.

Schumi still looks like he can cut it in the races, and I don't think he's lost any of his desire to win. Given his age and time away from the sport I actually think its quite a remarkable achievement from him. To have lost something and still be 'good' shows just how good he was at his peak imo.


Oh no, Spacekid is adding to his reputation as a poster with good sense! Please don't change him as otherwise he'll have to go & post on the Hamilton/Button scorecard thread.

I agree with the most sensible post I've read today - yes I've spent too long on the Ham/Butt thread and been worn down by the resident myopia that makes the MS/NR scorecard look like a lovefest.

Thumbs up Spacekid :up: only thing I'd add is it seems fairly clear that MS racecraft is showing up NR, and that's the sole thing keeping NR back from being regarded as "Shit-hot!".

#10373 spacekid

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 19:51

Cheers mate, appreciated! Well, I always try to have something constructive to say and as much as I love Schumi the sport has to come first. I've been watching F1 a long time now and can't ignore what I know about the sport.

#10374 zack1994

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 19:57

Aah, yes, he give him position back.

yep quick thinking by michael

#10375 zack1994

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 19:59

I wish I could agree with your post Poep, I really do, but unfortunately I just can't. Schumi is still good, and he can do some stuff in ROC and karts but... thats not the same as F1 and I'm not sure the competitions are comparable for various reasons.

Concentrating on F1, and specifically Rosberg as he is the best barometer, yes Michael has had some problems that have made him look 'bad' in some races. He's been very unlucky in a few quali sessions with KERS and DRS issues.

But having watched all the quali and raced and most of the practise sessions since his comeback, Rosberg is almost always about 0.3-0.5s ahead of Schumi on raw single lap pace. Sometimes he's managed to be a bit better and pull something out of the bag, but almost always that gap has been there across almost all sessions. Its too consistent to just be a coincidence.

Schumi still looks like he can cut it in the races, and I don't think he's lost any of his desire to win. Given his age and time away from the sport I actually think its quite a remarkable achievement from him. To have lost something and still be 'good' shows just how good he was at his peak imo.

:up:

#10376 exmayol

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 20:34

... having watched all the quali and raced and most of the practise sessions since his comeback, Rosberg is almost always about 0.3-0.5s ahead of Schumi on raw single lap pace. Sometimes he's managed to be a bit better and pull something out of the bag, but almost always that gap has been there across almost all sessions. Its too consistent to just be a coincidence.

Schumi still looks like he can cut it in the races, and I don't think he's lost any of his desire to win. Given his age and time away from the sport I actually think its quite a remarkable achievement from him. To have lost something and still be 'good' shows just how good he was at his peak imo.


I agree with most of it. I do however feel that there is more to come from MS if MGP resolves issues with consistency. Obviously NR has better pure speed as multiple qualifying sessions have showed yet in race trim MS is on par, if not better, in most of the areas.

#10377 arknor

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 21:04

i think if he was in the redbull he would make vettel earn the title unlike webber its a pitty we arent likely to see what he could do in a race winning car

#10378 spacekid

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 22:00

I agree with most of it. I do however feel that there is more to come from MS if MGP resolves issues with consistency. Obviously NR has better pure speed as multiple qualifying sessions have showed yet in race trim MS is on par, if not better, in most of the areas.


Yeah I've said most of this stuff before on the Schumi v Nico thread but I agree, Nicos race craft is the one area he needs to work on - I felt this was fairly glaring in China, for istance. I think he's gonna be one of those guys like Hakkinen who really takes off after he gets that first win though.

Back to Schumi... I've kinda been toying with a theory... in his early years of GP racing Schumi was very adaptable, he went from the Jordan to the Benneton to the Ferrari and was able to instantly wring more pace out of any of them than his teams mates could. Clearly this was not the case at Mercedes. Perhaps with age he has just lost a little bit of ability.

But... but... but... for years Schumi had Ferrari building a car to suit his style. I'm not saying he was only fast because he had a car to suit his style, but maybe so many years of driving basically an evolution of the same car trained him to only drive in a very certain way and now he can't get out of that 'habit', where as he used to be more adaptable?

Its not quite a fully formed theory, and quite possibly BS. Er, anyone else see what I'm getting at here?

#10379 Diablobb81

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 22:47

But... but... but... for years Schumi had Ferrari building a car to suit his style. I'm not saying he was only fast because he had a car to suit his style, but maybe so many years of driving basically an evolution of the same car trained him to only drive in a very certain way and now he can't get out of that 'habit', where as he used to be more adaptable?

Its not quite a fully formed theory, and quite possibly BS. Er, anyone else see what I'm getting at here?


Yes, i thought the same thing.


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#10380 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 23:07

i think if he was in the redbull he would make vettel earn the title

Maybe but Vettel would still win it. In 2006, it would have been very different.

#10381 arknor

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 23:25

Maybe but Vettel would still win it. In 2006, it would have been very different.

probably but i bet the general opinion of schumacher would be alot better than it is now. its a pitty they dont all do a time attack in the championship winning car each season so we could determine who really are the best drivers.

bet schumacher wishes he stayed around long enough to get 100 wins now

Edited by arknor, 03 June 2011 - 23:26.


#10382 SpeedyS

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 01:31

I wish I could agree with your post Poep, I really do, but unfortunately I just can't. Schumi is still good, and he can do some stuff in ROC and karts but... thats not the same as F1 and I'm not sure the competitions are comparable for various reasons.

Concentrating on F1, and specifically Rosberg as he is the best barometer, yes Michael has had some problems that have made him look 'bad' in some races. He's been very unlucky in a few quali sessions with KERS and DRS issues.

But having watched all the quali and raced and most of the practise sessions since his comeback, Rosberg is almost always about 0.3-0.5s ahead of Schumi on raw single lap pace. Sometimes he's managed to be a bit better and pull something out of the bag, but almost always that gap has been there across almost all sessions. Its too consistent to just be a coincidence.

Schumi still looks like he can cut it in the races, and I don't think he's lost any of his desire to win. Given his age and time away from the sport I actually think its quite a remarkable achievement from him. To have lost something and still be 'good' shows just how good he was at his peak imo.


I agree with you. Heres the problem, As a outsider LH always looks faster on raw speed vs JB, never any question, SV always looks faster vs MW, never any question, FA always looks faster vs FM, never any question, actaully if I was a suporter of JB, MW or FM is someways it would be much easier, just accept it and enjoy the races watching your guy trying to win with a better strategy of take advantage of a little luck. With MS just when you are thinking about accpeting NR has it over him MS throws in a lap or a race which gives you quite strong hope.
So why can somedays MS really look like he can match NR or even have the edge?? My question is does MS struggle in setting his car up compared to NR and the rest of the field? It is something no one really questions because how can MS with his 7 world tiltes and his vast experience struggle in this department, it should be his advantage, the area where he can make up for his disadvantage, age, right?

Edited by SpeedyS, 04 June 2011 - 01:32.


#10383 MightyMoose

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 01:56

Well from memory Barrichello was better at getting the perfect setup MS was far, far better at driving round a problem. It's also fact that MS used such a "front end" set up that when he left Benetton neither Berger or Alesi thought it was driveable that way.

It could be that todays cars & tyres just respond to the perfect setup much better and give that confidence inducing feel, if you miss it by a fraction, it's as good as a mile.

#10384 spacekid

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 02:10

With MS just when you are thinking about accpeting NR has it over him MS throws in a lap or a race which gives you quite strong hope.
So why can somedays MS really look like he can match NR or even have the edge?? My question is does MS struggle in setting his car up compared to NR and the rest of the field? It is something no one really questions because how can MS with his 7 world tiltes and his vast experience struggle in this department, it should be his advantage, the area where he can make up for his disadvantage, age, right?


Two possibilities for this for me;

i) Schumi has lost some of his raw pace, but he still has enough class for it to shine through and we get a glimpse of the old magic

ii) Schumi has lost some of his raw pace but is still decent, and sometimes Rosberg has an off day or makes a mistake so Schumi can get ahead


#10385 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 07:37

I think the first one. Its unfair to say that only when Nico has a bad day Schumacher gets ahead. We could argue the opposite.

In the last 10 races, there has been very little between them since Suzuka barring a few anomilies.

AUS - NA
MAL - MS
CHN - ROS
TUR - ROS
SPN - MS
MON - NA (i think MS would have edged this personally)

He isnt dominated like people think. Qualifying counts for little if you cant capitalise on your position.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 04 June 2011 - 07:38.


#10386 learningtobelost

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 08:17

He isnt dominated like people think. Qualifying counts for little if you cant capitalise on your position.


I agree completely with the notion that it's the races that count, unfortunately Nico has almost double the points Michael has. Last year, Nico scored... double the points of Michael. There's no doubt that he looks better this year, but the stats at the end of the season have to tally up or it all means nothing.


#10387 rommel

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 08:32

I think the first one. Its unfair to say that only when Nico has a bad day Schumacher gets ahead. We could argue the opposite.

In the last 10 races, there has been very little between them since Suzuka barring a few anomilies.

AUS - NA
MAL - MS
CHN - ROS
TUR - ROS
SPN - MS
MON - NA (i think MS would have edged this personally)

He isnt dominated like people think. Qualifying counts for little if you cant capitalise on your position.


In AUS he was miles behind in qualifying, so it's not fair to call it NA. Rosberg was far superior. How many times has Michael beaten Nico fair and square ever, not including when Nico has problems?

#10388 SpeedyS

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 08:40

Two possibilities for this for me;

i) Schumi has lost some of his raw pace, but he still has enough class for it to shine through and we get a glimpse of the old magic

ii) Schumi has lost some of his raw pace but is still decent, and sometimes Rosberg has an off day or makes a mistake so Schumi can get ahead


I would agree or like to think it is the 1st and it these glimpses which to be fair are increasing which keeps us all hoping. So is there a reason for these glimpses, I dont think it a ramdon event or even your 2nd option, NR making a mistake, NR has to be one of the most consistant drivers on the grid. I feel there are factors when he gets it together not "one last great punch moments" one of theses factors is getting a feel for the car in practice sessions, when he gets it he shows this glimpse but it seems to be a struggle to find this narrow set-up window.

Edited by SpeedyS, 04 June 2011 - 08:42.


#10389 ivand911

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 08:45

With car so much unpredictable I think any comparison between drivers will lead to big errors in the judgement. It is useless. When is the car and when are the drivers?

#10390 Augurk

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 08:46

In AUS he was miles behind in qualifying, so it's not fair to call it NA. Rosberg was far superior. How many times has Michael beaten Nico fair and square ever, not including when Nico has problems?

Funny you should ask that yet refer to an instance where MSC obviously had technical issues in qualifying. :)

#10391 rommel

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 08:49

With car so much unpredictable I think any comparison between drivers will lead to big errors in the judgement. It is useless. When is the car and when are the drivers?


both drivers drive the same car.

#10392 Augurk

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 08:53

both drivers drive the same car.

I beg to differ. That would explain why they usually only get one run each during Q3, but then it happens simultaniously, so it's pretty much impossible.

#10393 ivand911

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 09:02

both drivers drive the same car.

They are not. Look the area behind the helmet, it is different.
http://f1.f-e-n.net/...18182952011.jpg
Just simple example. Different preferences I think. From here we start with different setups, different settings. Two cars are never the same.

Edited by ivand911, 04 June 2011 - 09:04.


#10394 Sakae

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 09:54

In AUS he was miles behind in qualifying, so it's not fair to call it NA. Rosberg was far superior. How many times has Michael beaten Nico fair and square ever, not including when Nico has problems?

This, I think, is abuse of statistics. If it is true what you claim, than, analogically, Webber is over the hill and should retire immediately. Facts however are, that despite age differences, Webber is not too far off from Seb, and has his own battles with tires this year. Schumacher as well, I am convinced. I do not know where Michael stands in comparison to Sebastian, because we haven't seen him comfortable with his car yet. I am also not claiming that he would beat Rosberg, but Michael is not as bad as results suggests. I really like Sebastian, and I am his fan, but I do also realise that he was extremely fortunate until now with his tires; that is not true with rest of them. We can judge real Schumacher the day when he will have a very competitive car, and can fight on the track on equal basis. Thus far I am sceptical that this is a case.

#10395 sharo

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 09:55

Please, there's another tread for driver comparison, don't spoil this one.

Michael is OK. Maybe slower than anticipated the rust is coming off, he has not lost his abilities although the age inevitably plays a role. And I think his direct involvement is not as intensive as it was with Ferrari. If I am not mistaken, this was one of the reasons he chose to come back.

#10396 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 10:50

In AUS he was miles behind in qualifying, so it's not fair to call it NA. Rosberg was far superior. How many times has Michael beaten Nico fair and square ever, not including when Nico has problems?


The end result matters. You don't get points for qualifying.

In the last 10 races, since Suzuka, they have been fairly well matched. That is the objective view of looking at things. On the other hand, you can take the Eddie Jordan stance and struggle to contain your bowels everytime it comes to Schumacher.

#10397 salamin

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 10:56

They are not. Look the area behind the helmet, it is different.
http://f1.f-e-n.net/...18182952011.jpg
Just simple example. Different preferences I think. From here we start with different setups, different settings. Two cars are never the same.


can u explain what? I hardly see any difference
ty Augurk

Edited by salamin, 04 June 2011 - 11:01.


#10398 Augurk

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 11:00

can u explain what? I hardly see any difference

The headrest is different. Which is a small feat in itself but does indicate there are differences between the cars, probably also in areas invisible to us.

#10399 jjpm

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:16

IMO, the fact that the cars looks alike does solely imply that bodywork come from the same mold.
We have no way to know the differences underneath unless told by the team(maybe...)
Even the chassis can be different without us knowing it...
If we could get MSC to have a flying lap on his car and then to use Nico's car for another flying lap and the same for Nico only then we would have the closest comparison between them! everything else is figment of one's imagination!


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#10400 Poep

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:53

Yeah I've said most of this stuff before on the Schumi v Nico thread but I agree, Nicos race craft is the one area he needs to work on - I felt this was fairly glaring in China, for istance. I think he's gonna be one of those guys like Hakkinen who really takes off after he gets that first win though.

Back to Schumi... I've kinda been toying with a theory... in his early years of GP racing Schumi was very adaptable, he went from the Jordan to the Benneton to the Ferrari and was able to instantly wring more pace out of any of them than his teams mates could. Clearly this was not the case at Mercedes. Perhaps with age he has just lost a little bit of ability.

But... but... but... for years Schumi had Ferrari building a car to suit his style. I'm not saying he was only fast because he had a car to suit his style, but maybe so many years of driving basically an evolution of the same car trained him to only drive in a very certain way and now he can't get out of that 'habit', where as he used to be more adaptable?

Its not quite a fully formed theory, and quite possibly BS. Er, anyone else see what I'm getting at here?

This is for me the most probable explenation for Schumi's set up issues.
Remember he drove with Ferrari for 10 years!!! Do you guys know how much 10 years is.....? Just imagine doing something for 10 years and then think about it wheter it is natural or it can be changed that simple....

Whether schumi 2010 is still the best or not, you guys cannot say he isn't better than Button or Webber......come on guys.....what's next, Massa or Petrov are better than MS....?