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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#10401 Poep

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:53

Yeah I've said most of this stuff before on the Schumi v Nico thread but I agree, Nicos race craft is the one area he needs to work on - I felt this was fairly glaring in China, for istance. I think he's gonna be one of those guys like Hakkinen who really takes off after he gets that first win though.

Back to Schumi... I've kinda been toying with a theory... in his early years of GP racing Schumi was very adaptable, he went from the Jordan to the Benneton to the Ferrari and was able to instantly wring more pace out of any of them than his teams mates could. Clearly this was not the case at Mercedes. Perhaps with age he has just lost a little bit of ability.

But... but... but... for years Schumi had Ferrari building a car to suit his style. I'm not saying he was only fast because he had a car to suit his style, but maybe so many years of driving basically an evolution of the same car trained him to only drive in a very certain way and now he can't get out of that 'habit', where as he used to be more adaptable?

Its not quite a fully formed theory, and quite possibly BS. Er, anyone else see what I'm getting at here?

This is for me the most probable explenation for Schumi's set up issues.
Remember he drove with Ferrari for 10 years!!! Do you guys know how much 10 years is.....? Just imagine doing something for 10 years and then think about it wheter it is natural or it can be changed that simple....

Whether schumi 2010 is still the best or not, you guys cannot say he isn't better than Button or Webber......come on guys.....what's next, Massa or Petrov are better than MS....?

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#10402 jjpm

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:20

I believe there is a huge difference with then and now :
Then the pilot was the key input to the team, to validate proper setup, to give tires behavior, to request aerodynamic changes depending on weather, track conditions, fuel consumption, etc, etc. that is why guy like Senna, Prost, Schumi or Gilles Villeneuve had invaluable return to the team or tires representatives.
Now its all in the hand of ten to twenty engineers with their PC that defines all car's parameters, the pilot being just a wee bit more than a robot, turning knobs on those frigging steering clog.
And in that game Schumacher, with 20 odd years experience, is not the most advantaged.

Edited by jjpm, 05 June 2011 - 01:26.


#10403 ClubmanGT

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:43

Let's also remember that the Brawn engineers had to obtain a technical development from Super Aguri of all teams that made their cars so superior that set-up was irrelevant. I'm not sure they have any idea what they're doing and I'm not convinced they ever did.

#10404 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:15

Let's also remember that the Brawn engineers had to obtain a technical development from Super Aguri of all teams that made their cars so superior that set-up was irrelevant. I'm not sure they have any idea what they're doing and I'm not convinced they ever did.


Indeed. IIRC the double decker diffuser concept only came about when a former Super Aguri team member suggested the idea......

Someone correct me on this...

#10405 Augurk

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:26

Yeah I've said most of this stuff before on the Schumi v Nico thread but I agree, Nicos race craft is the one area he needs to work on - I felt this was fairly glaring in China, for istance. I think he's gonna be one of those guys like Hakkinen who really takes off after he gets that first win though.

Back to Schumi... I've kinda been toying with a theory... in his early years of GP racing Schumi was very adaptable, he went from the Jordan to the Benneton to the Ferrari and was able to instantly wring more pace out of any of them than his teams mates could. Clearly this was not the case at Mercedes. Perhaps with age he has just lost a little bit of ability.

But... but... but... for years Schumi had Ferrari building a car to suit his style. I'm not saying he was only fast because he had a car to suit his style, but maybe so many years of driving basically an evolution of the same car trained him to only drive in a very certain way and now he can't get out of that 'habit', where as he used to be more adaptable?

Its not quite a fully formed theory, and quite possibly BS. Er, anyone else see what I'm getting at here?

I think there might be some truth in this and it explains at least some of the trouble he had last year. Learning something new isn't that hard. Unlearing something old is.

#10406 rommel

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:35

Yeah I've said most of this stuff before on the Schumi v Nico thread but I agree, Nicos race craft is the one area he needs to work on - I felt this was fairly glaring in China, for istance. I think he's gonna be one of those guys like Hakkinen who really takes off after he gets that first win though.

Back to Schumi... I've kinda been toying with a theory... in his early years of GP racing Schumi was very adaptable, he went from the Jordan to the Benneton to the Ferrari and was able to instantly wring more pace out of any of them than his teams mates could. Clearly this was not the case at Mercedes. Perhaps with age he has just lost a little bit of ability.

But... but... but... for years Schumi had Ferrari building a car to suit his style. I'm not saying he was only fast because he had a car to suit his style, but maybe so many years of driving basically an evolution of the same car trained him to only drive in a very certain way and now he can't get out of that 'habit', where as he used to be more adaptable?

Its not quite a fully formed theory, and quite possibly BS. Er, anyone else see what I'm getting at here?


Under that logic he should have strugged when he joined Ferrari after driving Benettons that were made to suit his style for 5 years, but he didn't he flew right away. His problem is that has lost ability and feel for the car on the limit which is why he over drives. When you watch him onboard it is not a driver not pushing, he is driving it like a go kart, but that is not the fastest way. Massa also drives like that and is slow.

#10407 Sakae

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:46

Are you suggesting that Schumacher forgot how to drive an F1 car and applying to MGP creation some junior techniques from go-karts?

#10408 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 13:14

What a waste of time! He should of never left Ferrari and the same with Brawn, Todt n co., and continued to win or come close to winning titles, and that's about it.

Eh and Luca D is an idiot it seems lol it was his call that Kimi come in ya?

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 05 June 2011 - 13:33.


#10409 Starish

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 13:37

What a waste of time! He should of never left Ferrari and the same with Brawn, Todt n co., and continued to win or come close to winning titles, and that's about it.

Eh and Luca D is an idiot it seems lol it was his call that Kimi come in ya?


Id they didn't hire Kimi he would probably have won in 2007 and 2008 with Macca anyways, what I want to know is why they hired Massa, knowing they wanted Kimi and Msc didn't want to leave. Ferrari always seems to have three drivers.

#10410 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 14:22

what I want to know is why they hired Massa


Coz he used to deliver pizzas to em at Interlagos. Seriously aint Todt son Felipes Manager? Aint that why? Was he his manager in 2006 though?

#10411 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 16:14

Id they didn't hire Kimi he would probably have won in 2007 and 2008 with Macca anyways, what I want to know is why they hired Massa, knowing they wanted Kimi and Msc didn't want to leave. Ferrari always seems to have three drivers.


They hired and retained Massa because he was fast and he ran Schumacher close. He also beat Kimi TWICE and nearly became WDC in 2008.

You aren't sh*t if you can do that. He's no Ricardo Rosset.

#10412 glorius&victorius

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 17:02

just checked these amazing stats: 7 wins for MS at Gilles Villeneuve Circuit. 7!!!!

1994,
1997,
1998,
2000,
2002,
2003,
2004

just looking at that figure dazzles me.

just saw as well that he won France 8!!!! times






#10413 salamin

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 17:30

just checked these amazing stats: 7 wins for MS at Gilles Villeneuve Circuit. 7!!!!

1994,
1997,
1998,
2000,
2002,
2003,
2004

just looking at that figure dazzles me.

just saw as well that he won France 8!!!! times


sometimes i get stuck on Schumacher's records as well. For me the season 2002 is the top, where he managed to finish on podium the entire season :eek:

#10414 MightyMoose

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 17:43

sometimes i get stuck on Schumacher's records as well. For me the season 2002 is the top, where he managed to finish on podium the entire season :eek:


Do you think he was more dominant in 2002 or 2004 then?

I know he gained 1 win in 2002 & arguably gifted 3 to RB in 2002, but as far as I recall didn't he win 12 out of the first 13 races in 04.... the only one he didn't was in Monaco where he got caught out being a silly sod in the tunnel under the safety car.


#10415 F1Champion

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 17:43

Out of the top teams the Mercedes drivers have been the closest so I think that speaks well for both drivers compared to other driver partnerships.

#10416 salamin

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 17:57

Do you think he was more dominant in 2002 or 2004 then?

I know he gained 1 win in 2002 & arguably gifted 3 to RB in 2002, but as far as I recall didn't he win 12 out of the first 13 races in 04.... the only one he didn't was in Monaco where he got caught out being a silly sod in the tunnel under the safety car.


yeah 2004 was crazy as well, points and %win wise it was even a better season

another crazy record: 22 wins on different tracks :drunk:
more here


#10417 Starish

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 18:14

They hired and retained Massa because he was fast and he ran Schumacher close. He also beat Kimi TWICE and nearly became WDC in 2008.

You aren't sh*t if you can do that. He's no Ricardo Rosset.


So are you saying they accepted Massa as being faster than Michael? and Twice? are you counting 2006 when he was in the 21? If so Kimi beat Massa 'FIVE' Times -.-.

I still Believe Raikkonen was less favored at Ferrari in 2008 and Massa is just getting the boomerang of bad luck back now it started at the last race in 2008.

BTT

#10418 Augurk

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 18:37

sometimes i get stuck on Schumacher's records as well. For me the season 2002 is the top, where he managed to finish on podium the entire season :eek:

I know what you mean. In 2004 he was more dominant, but 2002 felt more special. Possibly because of equalling Fangio's record. I still remember where I was the exact moment he climbed the podium as a 5 times world champion. Inside his old F2001.

Also remember where I was when he took his first Ferrari championship in Japan 2000, though a lot less glorious memory: on the sofa with a sleepy head, crawled under a blanket drinking tea to stay awake during the night race :lol:

#10419 Afterburner

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 18:53

just checked these amazing stats: 7 wins for MS at Gilles Villeneuve Circuit. 7!!!!

1994,
1997,
1998,
2000,
2002,
2003,
2004

just looking at that figure dazzles me.

just saw as well that he won France 8!!!! times

Never going to forget how the trophy for that eighth win at France was shaped like an "8"--and the two other trophies were both shaped like zeroes. :rotfl:

Don't forget this one, too: he also has more feature-race wins at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway (5) than any other driver to have ever raced there--including the Indycar guys! :lol:

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#10420 Bunchies

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 18:58

This, I think, is abuse of statistics. If it is true what you claim, than, analogically, Webber is over the hill and should retire immediately. Facts however are, that despite age differences, Webber is not too far off from Seb, and has his own battles with tires this year. Schumacher as well, I am convinced. I do not know where Michael stands in comparison to Sebastian, because we haven't seen him comfortable with his car yet. I am also not claiming that he would beat Rosberg, but Michael is not as bad as results suggests. I really like Sebastian, and I am his fan, but I do also realise that he was extremely fortunate until now with his tires; that is not true with rest of them. We can judge real Schumacher the day when he will have a very competitive car, and can fight on the track on equal basis. Thus far I am sceptical that this is a case.


What do you mean by "fortunate" with tires. I think Seb just manages them better than Webber, while still being able to extract just that bit of speed in qualifying.

#10421 salamin

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 19:02

Also remember where I was when he took his first Ferrari championship in Japan 2000, though a lot less glorious memory: on the sofa with a sleepy head, crawled under a blanket drinking tea to stay awake during the night race :lol:


well it was worth it in the end :up:


#10422 Birelman

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 19:33

I know what you mean. In 2004 he was more dominant, but 2002 felt more special. Possibly because of equalling Fangio's record. I still remember where I was the exact moment he climbed the podium as a 5 times world champion. Inside his old F2001.

Also remember where I was when he took his first Ferrari championship in Japan 2000, though a lot less glorious memory: on the sofa with a sleepy head, crawled under a blanket drinking tea to stay awake during the night race :lol:

I remember punching the sofa when he won the race I was so mad lol, I kept hoping his car would blow up LOL, but in 2006 I got my laugh though :D

#10423 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 20:09

I remember punching the sofa when he won the race I was so mad lol, I kept hoping his car would blow up LOL, but in 2006 I got my laugh though :D



You got your laugh maybe a few times.

He got his laugh 91 times on the top step of the podium and everytime he looked at his bank account

"wow, ANOTHER million?"

#10424 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 20:14

So are you saying they accepted Massa as being faster than Michael?

Schumacher was decling, Massa had his career in front of him. Schumacher finished in front of Massa than vice versa. How could Massa be accepted as the faster of the two?



and Twice? are you counting 2006 when he was in the 21? If so Kimi beat Massa 'FIVE' Times -.-.

Massa and Kimi were team mates for 3 season. In 2008 and 2009, Massa was ahead of Kimi and had more pointed.

A direct comparison only counts when two drivers are in the same team on more or less equal terms.


I still Believe Raikkonen was less favored at Ferrari in 2008 and Massa is just getting the boomerang of bad luck back now it started at the last race in 2008.

Kimi Raikonnen earned £70,000 PER DAY at Ferrari and had a very lax approach to his driving. He earned as much as Schumacher but perhaps put in 1/3rd of the effort. Massa was more integrated and got the assistance required.


BTT



#10425 SeanValen

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 23:26

just checked these amazing stats: 7 wins for MS at Gilles Villeneuve Circuit. 7!!!!

1994,
1997,
1998,
2000,
2002,
2003,
2004

just looking at that figure dazzles me.

just saw as well that he won France 8!!!! times


Magny Courts at France was a track with a specific fast corner that MS and Kimi by far showed their Spa fast corner talent at work, they made sure Rubens and Massa never came close there.

Also remember even the races MS didn't win, he did well at Canada in 2005 and France 2003- on a weekend where michelin tyres shod cars of Williams, Mclaren and Renault were competiive, MS set the car up the way he normally did and maximised his strong areas of the track and went on for a podium, a crucial weekend for his final points tally that year, ferrari suffered in the tyre war against williams and mclaren on certain tracks in 2003 and france was one of them. 2003 France qualifying also showed a bigger then larger gap when MS qualified in the wet against Rubens, showing his true srenght on that track.

I also believe that if Magney Cours and Imola were on the calender now, that hands down, Rosberg would have a tough time getting MS there. Remember in 2010, Brawn commented MS was fast in fast corners, but losing time in the slower ones, and in 2010, he was fast at turkey/spa/suzuka, the tracks with fast stuff along with Spain, and Monaco always competitive.


The thing with Canada, Michael never realised what he why he was so strong there, he admitted so, but in the end it came down to his breaking, it's a breaking track, and we know from his pitstop slow downs, he is very precise finding limits. Last year's Canada for MS was terrible, whatever issues he had last season definately came out on that track as well, hopefully it'll be a better show for him, but I hope the DRS works well, because we have 2 DRS zones, and it could work very well for Mercedes, but tyres and how they react, in the dark on that one again.

Edited by SeanValen, 07 June 2011 - 23:29.


#10426 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 07:37

The thing with Canada, Michael never realised what he why he was so strong there, he admitted so, but in the end it came down to his breaking, it's a breaking track, and we know from his pitstop slow downs, he is very precise finding limits. Last year's Canada for MS was terrible, whatever issues he had last season definately came out on that track as well, hopefully it'll be a better show for him, but I hope the DRS works well, because we have 2 DRS zones, and it could work very well for Mercedes, but tyres and how they react, in the dark on that one again.

It was terrible after he crash with Kubica, not before that. Great start as usual. He was 6th I think when he crash, second lap after his first pitstop. After that team did so many stupid things,like 36 laps on soft tyres? Which was suppose to last only 10 laps? Some strange pitstops? He didn't have tyres in the end. Even GP2 car could overtake him there.

Edited by ivand911, 08 June 2011 - 07:40.


#10427 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 07:48

I loved the first part of Canada last year, until that Kubica incident - I think Schumacher had his best position of the season before the pit-stop. After that, it was a disaster with silly strategy.

#10428 Ruf

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 08:02

I know what you mean. In 2004 he was more dominant, but 2002 felt more special. Possibly because of equalling Fangio's record. I still remember where I was the exact moment he climbed the podium as a 5 times world champion. Inside his old F2001.

I was right in front of the podium ;)


#10429 arknor

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 14:27

I loved the first part of Canada last year, until that Kubica incident - I think Schumacher had his best position of the season before the pit-stop. After that, it was a disaster with silly strategy.

wouldnt that have been AUS before jenson or whoever it was caused an accident at was it the first few corners?

#10430 Pits

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 16:05

I hope Schumacher does well here in Montreal. :cool:
The circuit sure has been good to him in past, alto that's no garanty.
I gues it's all down to the car and if they are able to make the tires work.

#10431 Sakae

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 16:30

Give him his old Ferrari back, and then we can see what chronological age did to him in real terms.

#10432 Augurk

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 16:33

I was right in front of the podium ;)

I thought me being in the F2001 in which he took his previous championship, holding the same steering wheel, at the moment he took his fifth was pretty awesome, but that takes the cake :up:

Edited by Augurk, 08 June 2011 - 16:34.


#10433 ivand911

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Posted 08 June 2011 - 20:43

http://www.jamesalle...ds/Montana4.jpg

#10434 Scotracer

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 00:03

I was right in front of the podium ;)


I was climbing the fence on the slow-down lap as he stopped in front of me to cheer at the crowd. That was a special moment.

#10435 ivand911

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 19:58

Posted Image :)

Edited by ivand911, 09 June 2011 - 19:59.


#10436 differential

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 20:20

Posted Image :)

:up:

#10437 ivand911

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 20:23

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by ivand911, 09 June 2011 - 20:24.


#10438 Disgrace

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 20:25

I loved the first part of Canada last year, until that Kubica incident - I think Schumacher had his best position of the season before the pit-stop. After that, it was a disaster with silly strategy.


Yeah, ironic that his best drive of his comeback turned into one of his worst after the Kubica incident.

#10439 BiH

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 20:42

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


i find this funny for some reason

dc was probably forced to do this interview

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#10440 sharo

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 21:00

Posted Image :)

This drawing is a mix of Michael and Seb Vettel's faces. IMO. :)

Edited by sharo, 09 June 2011 - 21:01.


#10441 ivand911

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 21:44

This drawing is a mix of Michael and Seb Vettel's faces. IMO. :)

Every driver have such drawing over his pitbox.

Posted Image

Edited by ivand911, 09 June 2011 - 21:44.


#10442 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 21:48

Posted Image

David: Trust me, I've done this before
MS: brake, brake, brake, brake!!!!

#10443 arknor

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 00:22

David: Trust me, I've done this before
MS: brake, brake, brake, brake!!!!

i guess well have MSC on the bbc circuit guide thingy then, i bet he refused to do with with brundle so they got DC instead :rotfl:

#10444 Scotracer

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 00:55

i find this funny for some reason

dc was probably forced to do this interview


No doubt they are using Michael as the track guide since he's won the race 7 times.

#10445 DutchCruijff

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 06:38

I expect DC to suck up to Michael. One thing behind his back, and another in front of his face.

#10446 puxanando

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 06:57

Michael talkes to much.....

I’m not sure what surprises me more about Michael Schumacher’s return from retirement: his performance on the track – or off it.

On the track, it’s hard to imagine how things could go more wrong for a guy who has won seven Formula One drivers’ championships and holds every record that matters – from wins (91) and poles (68) to podiums (154) and fastest laps (76)


Not to take away from Nico Rosberg, but Schumacher’s inability to match his much-less-experienced German compatriot on most Grand Prix weekends goes beyond any worst-case scenario imaginable.

Let’s face it: There was little chance Schumi would live up to the hype surrounding his unretirement – the predictions of more wins, more poles, more podiums and, by the way, an immediate eighth driver’s title.

It wasn’t going to happen, especially when it became clear his Mercedes did not measure up to the task.



Read more: http://www.montrealg...l#ixzz1Or0B2kUq



#10447 ivand911

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 07:25

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


puxanando chose wrong quotes I guess:
"There have even been attempts to revise history, with British racing legend Sterling Moss suggesting Schumacher was “lucky to get all those titles” because “he was in the right car.”

Ridiculous and unfair. There were plenty of teammates at Ferrari and Benetton who were in the right car, too, and not one has a world driver’s title to his name.

Schumacher says he’s aware “there are many out there mouthing off about me,” but remains confident he will prove them wrong in the end. Maybe so. One more year remains on his Mercedes contract.

Give him this: He, more than anyone, knows what it takes to get back on track before the checkered flag comes down on his career for good."

puxanando, I know it hurts, to look how some new guy equals your favorite driver accomplishments and soon beating him in record books. And it will get worse ,man.

Edited by ivand911, 10 June 2011 - 08:22.


#10448 ivand911

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 08:01

Is it me or Michael cards are going faster than Nico's?
http://motorsport.ne...a-09jun/003.jpg
:p

Or Nico thinking: Why is nobody looking at me??
http://motorsport.ne...a-09jun/019.jpg
:lol:

Edited by ivand911, 10 June 2011 - 08:05.


#10449 tifosiMac

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 08:08

i guess well have MSC on the bbc circuit guide thingy then, i bet he refused to do with with brundle so they got DC instead :rotfl:

Brundle has interviewed Michael a couple of times recently and he joined the BBC team not so long agao where they joked about their past clashes.

#10450 salamin

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 11:18

Michael talkes to much.....

very informative ty, now crawl back to the alonso threads where you came from