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#10801 Disgrace

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:40

one move doesn't make a bad weekend


Hamilton in Canada? :drunk: Of course it can and did, it ruined the race.

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#10802 differential

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:42

After the false dawn of Canada back to the impetuous, clumsy Schumacher of his post comeback. Bad weekend and a shame to see.


Oh right and what were you expecting of Merc, pole position and win. Merc was always going to be crap around this track, and will be for the remainder of the season unless it rains.

#10803 differential

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:42

Hamilton in Canada? :drunk: Of course it can and did, it ruined the race.

How do you explain Button then?

#10804 differential

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:46

True, but the young Russian should learn a bit. Later he almost did the same as to Schumacher in Turkey against Kobayashi. The latter reacted better and avoided the crash at a hair thick distance.


He still has a lot to learn, remember Malaysia?

#10805 F1 Tor.

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:47

The main problem is that Shumi has a severe disability when he's around other cars. He has a tendency to run into people around him and always had, and when he does, he usually gets away with it. I find it amazing, to be honest.



really? A 'severe disability'? Clumsy at times throughout his career I would agree but your post is a bit rich. :rolleyes:

#10806 BRK

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:49

The main problem is that Shumi has a severe disability when he's around other cars. He has a tendency to run into people around him and always had, and when he does, he usually gets away with it. I find it amazing, to be honest.


Says the guy that's been defending Hamilton every time he's run into someone, one brainfade after another. I find the hypocrisy and obvious double standards amazing, to be honest. :rolleyes:

I think your posts are designed with the sole intent of winding people up and trapping them into making a nasty retort. The worrying thing is that you seem to enjoy every bit of it.

Schumacher is an aggressive racer, always has been, that's one reason why he's achieved so much success and is such a joy to watch. What happened today was a simple lock up and an easy mistake anyone would have made, there have literally been hundreds of lock ups this season and the only time you take notice is if it's Schumacher making the mistake. You were also the same genius that was arguing Petrov did nothing wrong and wasn't at all to blame in Turkey, even though in that case it was Petrov that would have run wide. As such there is absolutely no consistency to your arguments and I don't know why anybody should take you seriously. (not that they do, but I'm still learning)

#10807 VresiBerba

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:53

What are you talking about? If you look throughout his career hes made amazing overtakes. He overtook Mal without crashing into him, so whats your point exactly?

Of course Shumi has made amazing overtakes, he's been racing in Formula One for 18 years. Even a blind hen can sometimes find a corn.


EDIT: Oh right you support Montoya maybe that explains something..

Bring up Montoya, who retired from Formula One six years ago all you like, but apart from Shumi, he will race for the win... in just a few hours :cat:

#10808 VresiBerba

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 17:59

really? A 'severe disability'?

Really! Shumi's performance at Suzuka 2002 kind of cemented it for me; he was absolute rubbish that day, ran into cars, wrecked his front wing and nearly ruined his championship. If he had led from the start, there's no doubt in my mind that Shumi would win by minutes, but he didn't lead from the start.

I'm not impressed by Shumi while in traffic, and that opinion I share with a lot of people.

#10809 sharo

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 18:05

Bring up Montoya, who retired from Formula One six years ago all you like, but apart from Shumi, he will race for the win... in just a few hours :cat:

:rotfl:

#10810 BRK

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 18:06

So now it's gone from 'when he's around other cars' to 'he's poor when navigating through traffic'. Just as I said, ZERO consistency, the tune has changed in the space of two posts.

Schumacher has always led from the front and has experience lapping the others, not fighting down in useless positions with GP2 drivers. Not that Juan Pablo would know anything about leading from the front.

PS: ever heard of the multi-quote button?

#10811 topical

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 18:18

Oh right and what were you expecting of Merc, pole position and win. Merc was always going to be crap around this track, and will be for the remainder of the season unless it rains.


Er, I think it's pretty clear that this is a thread about the performance of MS, not the Merc car. Both sucked.

#10812 Williams

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 18:44

Agreed with what seems to be the consensus here that it is Schumachers's fault. He really need to back off a bit seeing that Petrov was heading for piece of pavement that Schumacher was going to need. I don't think Petrov could have seen Schumacher coming out of the pits, as Schumacher emerged behind and to the side of Petrov and pretty much in his blind spot (which is pretty big on an F1 car!)

Having said that it seems like a pretty poor design for a pit lane exit. The apex of the corner is right at the mouth of the exit. An accident waiting to happen.

#10813 differential

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 18:47

Er, I think it's pretty clear that this is a thread about the performance of MS, not the Merc car. Both sucked.

Thats the point im making.

#10814 differential

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 18:47

Really! Shumi's performance at Suzuka 2002 kind of cemented it for me; he was absolute rubbish that day, ran into cars, wrecked his front wing and nearly ruined his championship. If he had led from the start, there's no doubt in my mind that Shumi would win by minutes, but he didn't lead from the start.

I'm not impressed by Shumi while in traffic, and that opinion I share with a lot of people.

I don't think he really cares about what you think of him.
MSC 7-0 MON

#10815 Ruf

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 19:49

Really! Shumi's performance at Suzuka 2002 kind of cemented it for me; he was absolute rubbish that day, ran into cars, wrecked his front wing and nearly ruined his championship. If he had led from the start, there's no doubt in my mind that Shumi would win by minutes, but he didn't lead from the start.

I'm not impressed by Shumi while in traffic, and that opinion I share with a lot of people.

What went wrong at Suzuka 2002? As far as I remember he won that race and he didn't even needed to care since he was WDC by mid season anyway.

As for the "while in traffic" I reccomend you Brazil 2006. Taqke a look:

#10816 ivand911

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 19:53

Really! Shumi's performance at Suzuka 2002 kind of cemented it for me; he was absolute rubbish that day, ran into cars, wrecked his front wing and nearly ruined his championship. If he had led from the start, there's no doubt in my mind that Shumi would win by minutes, but he didn't lead from the start.

I'm not impressed by Shumi while in traffic, and that opinion I share with a lot of people.

Whatever.


#10817 differential

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 19:58

Of course Shumi has made amazing overtakes, he's been racing in Formula One for 18 years. Even a blind hen can sometimes find a corn.



Bring up Montoya, who retired from Formula One six years ago all you like, but apart from Shumi, he will race for the win... in just a few hours :cat:


Who cares about what other form of racing he is in now. This is F1.

If you think Schumi doesn't know how to overtake, then what have you been watching for the past 2 decades?

#10818 differential

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 19:58

What went wrong at Suzuka 2002? As far as I remember he won that race and he didn't even needed to care since he was WDC by mid season anyway.

As for the "while in traffic" I reccomend you Brazil 2006. Taqke a look:

:up: :up:

#10819 exmayol

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 21:37

Really! Shumi's performance at Suzuka 2002 kind of cemented it for me; he was absolute rubbish that day, ran into cars, wrecked his front wing and nearly ruined his championship. If he had led from the start, there's no doubt in my mind that Shumi would win by minutes, but he didn't lead from the start.

I'm not impressed by Shumi while in traffic, and that opinion I share with a lot of people.


1. That was 2003.
2. He was not running into people except for an accident with Sato... who happens to be from Japan and acts like a samurai.


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#10820 VresiBerba

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 22:35

1. That was 2003.
2. He was not running into people except for an accident with Sato... who happens to be from Japan and acts like a samurai.

1. True.
3. I was thinking of Ralf, you know, his brother, who happens to not be from Japan.
9. I don't like it when you guys gang up on me, it makes me sad :cry:

#10821 MightyMoose

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 22:39

Bring up Montoya, who retired from Formula One six years ago all you like, but apart from Shumi, he will race for the win... in just a few hours :cat:
[/quote]

So how did that work out? Want to explain his (JPM) brainfart move on Kasey Kahne in the Sonoma thread? :down:


#10822 casegfx

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 23:25

Looking at BBC I think Michael accepted the all the fault? But, why EJ say that he was blaming the tyres? And making excuses.

yep thats was a first for him

#10823 VresiBerba

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 23:26

Want to explain his (JPM) brainfart move on Kasey Kahne in the Sonoma thread? :down:

How about we keep Montoya out of of this thread altogether.

#10824 F1 Tor.

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 00:08

Really! Shumi's performance at Suzuka 2002 kind of cemented it for me; he was absolute rubbish that day, ran into cars, wrecked his front wing and nearly ruined his championship. If he had led from the start, there's no doubt in my mind that Shumi would win by minutes, but he didn't lead from the start.

I'm not impressed by Shumi while in traffic, and that opinion I share with a lot of people.


great example. :kiss: please stop now.


#10825 alexocfp

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 01:34

seriously, one of the greatest pilots ever in F1, currently driving a mercedes truck, is a few points behind his 16 year younger teamamte. Hardly anything to be ashamed of.

Edited by alexocfp, 27 June 2011 - 01:34.


#10826 jjpm

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 14:23

Pappy 2002, Baby 2011

1.Pappy : 25 – 15 – 25 – 25 – 25 – 25 – 18 – 25 – 18 – 25 – 25 – 25 – 18 – 25 -18 – 18 – 25 = 380
1. Baby : 25 – 25 – 18 – 25 – 25 – 25 – 18 – 25 (186)

:)

Edited by jjpm, 27 June 2011 - 14:26.


#10827 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 15:57

seriously, one of the greatest pilots ever in F1, currently driving a mercedes truck, is a few points behind his 16 year younger teamamte. Hardly anything to be ashamed of.

stop being smart

you don't fit in the picture :)
he's a whooping 2 points behind in the table, 4% difference. I wonder what other team is so close? (except the 0 point teams)

But logic is a very strange subject to some people around here

#10828 britishtrident

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 21:27

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

I think Mercedes have a lot of other people in their operation for poor results besides Michael.



Yep Rosberg has nothing to be ashamed of ..... Schumacher should be old enough to know better than continue, he should have quit early last season.

#10829 Raelene

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 22:35

So should every driver that is behind their teammate and who has accidents quit?

#10830 Nitropower

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 22:52

I feel sorry for Schumacher when I see him drive today. It must be really really hard to drive for cash and past excitement when you where used to be the cocky number one, the center of attention, feared and admired by other drivers. Now that he can't win it's not only a few times that he causes collisions, loses his front wing, crashes into others, is behind his team mate and makes dangeorous moves. What a sad comeback so far. He should've thought what to do for a living when he retired back in 2006.

#10831 Raelene

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 23:46

Now that he can't win it's not only a few times that he causes collisions, loses his front wing, crashes into others, is behind his team mate and makes dangeorous moves


some of those "problems" reminds me of another former champion ...who's still racing. He should retire as well

#10832 Tardis40

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 00:22

WTF is with Petrov. It's always Petrov in the ^%#%$@%@ way.

Michael should take a few of his 88 kajillion Euros and buy Petrov a seat in some other motorsport series just to get him out of his way.



#10833 Disgrace

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 00:50

one of the greatest pilots ever in F1 is a few points behind his 16 year younger teamamte. Hardly anything to be ashamed of.


Yes it is. His comeback has not been a success.

#10834 Disgrace

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 00:52

How do you explain Button then?


He was lucky with the safety cars. The poster said one move does not ruin a weekend. I'm merely saying it can, because it's true. It was just proven by Schumacher this weekend. Not sure what your point is.

Edited by Disgrace, 28 June 2011 - 00:53.


#10835 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:37

I feel sorry for Schumacher when I see him drive today. It must be really really hard to drive for cash and past excitement when you where used to be the cocky number one, the center of attention, feared and admired by other drivers. Now that he can't win it's not only a few times that he causes collisions, loses his front wing, crashes into others, is behind his team mate and makes dangeorous moves. What a sad comeback so far. He should've thought what to do for a living when he retired back in 2006.

go back to your nando threads :)
you live in a fantasy word

#10836 as65p

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 09:29

go back to your nando threads :)
you live in a fantasy word


He's got a point, though. Honestly, in 10 years time, do you imagine yourselve raving about his comeback, or maybe about some other stuff from earlier in his career?

#10837 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 09:45

He's got a point, though. Honestly, in 10 years time, do you imagine yourselve raving about his comeback, or maybe about some other stuff from earlier in his career?

And who's fault is that his comeback didn't turn out successful? Is it him or because he don't have competitive car? He is still pretty close/equal to other guys. We sow Fernando with Renault in 2008/2009. We saw Lewis with not so strong cars. They are not magicians , with not good car they all suck. Now and then they win same races ,but is this enough. For MS will be much harder to win race because there is 6-7 guys competing for win and 6 of them have better car advantage. And I prefer to see him on the track than just visiting. After 10 years I will be happy with his career no mater what. He will still have all his success after 10 years , nothing will change.


#10838 Jazza

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 10:36

And who's fault is that his comeback didn't turn out successful? Is it him or because he don't have competitive car? He is still pretty close/equal to other guys. We sow Fernando with Renault in 2008/2009. We saw Lewis with not so strong cars. They are not magicians , with not good car they all suck. Now and then they win same races ,but is this enough. For MS will be much harder to win race because there is 6-7 guys competing for win and 6 of them have better car advantage. And I prefer to see him on the track than just visiting. After 10 years I will be happy with his career no mater what. He will still have all his success after 10 years , nothing will change.


I think the point is that MS was supposed to be able to win in any car. His reputation was built on the the idea that in any team, in any given season, he would win races. When he won races in bad cars, all the experts claimed that only he could of done that.

What we are seeing now is that this is false. MS can not win in an uncompetitive car. MS from 95, 98, 2002 etc could not win in this Mercedes. The car is at least 1 second per lap off the pace in a race, maybe even 2. Alonso, Lewis, no one would win in this car without dumb luck... But this was what he was supposedly able to do throughout his career. This is what his reputation was built on.

What MS's return should do is lead people to reevaluate many of the Ferrari's and Benetton's of the 90's. How slow where they really? Certainly not as slow as a 2011 Mercedes. He had competitive cars through his entire first F1 stint that allowed him to win lots of races and he built his reputation on this. It is a bit rich to now use uncompetitive cars as an excuse for not winning.

#10839 differential

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 10:41

He was lucky with the safety cars. The poster said one move does not ruin a weekend. I'm merely saying it can, because it's true. It was just proven by Schumacher this weekend. Not sure what your point is.


Did you forget about the Button/Alonso/Hamilton collisions? Yes he did win due to the SC but he lasted the race due to the fact those crashes didn't end his race.

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#10840 differential

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 10:44

I think the point is that MS was supposed to be able to win in any car. His reputation was built on the the idea that in any team, in any given season, he would win races. When he won races in bad cars, all the experts claimed that only he could of done that.

What we are seeing now is that this is false. MS can not win in an uncompetitive car. MS from 95, 98, 2002 etc could not win in this Mercedes. The car is at least 1 second per lap off the pace in a race, maybe even 2. Alonso, Lewis, no one would win in this car without dumb luck... But this was what he was supposedly able to do throughout his career. This is what his reputation was built on.

What MS's return should do is lead people to reevaluate many of the Ferrari's and Benetton's of the 90's. How slow where they really? Certainly not as slow as a 2011 Mercedes. He had competitive cars through his entire first F1 stint that allowed him to win lots of races and he built his reputation on this. It is a bit rich to now use uncompetitive cars as an excuse for not winning.


So you're comparing 90's- early 2000's cars to now? Great comparison.

#10841 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:01

I think the point is that MS was supposed to be able to win in any car. His reputation was built on the the idea that in any team, in any given season, he would win races. When he won races in bad cars, all the experts claimed that only he could of done that.

What we are seeing now is that this is false. MS can not win in an uncompetitive car. MS from 95, 98, 2002 etc could not win in this Mercedes. The car is at least 1 second per lap off the pace in a race, maybe even 2. Alonso, Lewis, no one would win in this car without dumb luck... But this was what he was supposedly able to do throughout his career. This is what his reputation was built on.

What MS's return should do is lead people to reevaluate many of the Ferrari's and Benetton's of the 90's. How slow where they really? Certainly not as slow as a 2011 Mercedes. He had competitive cars through his entire first F1 stint that allowed him to win lots of races and he built his reputation on this. It is a bit rich to now use uncompetitive cars as an excuse for not winning.

What any car mean? What is uncompetitive car? Minardi? ProstGP. He won in 1992 and 1993 with not the best car, and all main guys were in the race. He won with Ferrari when it was not the strongest car. Who else won with this Ferrari when it was not the best car? You saw him in Canada, who could have than that going from 12th to 2nd with MGP car in this conditions? And he is 42 don't forget. What was his age in Benetton and Ferrari? Before starting to reevaluate his Benetton and Ferrari days. Reevaluate his 7 titles and 91 wins and 1 billion in the bank. Good time with that. He was slow enough to win 7 titles. :rotfl: He really have chance to win 10-11 titles by now. When he win it is about the car, but when he can't win it is him??????

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2011 - 11:28.


#10842 Jazza

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 11:47

What any car mean? What is uncompetitive car? Minardi? ProstGP. He won in 1992 and 1993 with not the best car, and all main guys were in the race. He won with Ferrari when it was not the strongest car. Who else won with this Ferrari when it was not the best car? You saw him in Canada, who could have than that going from 12th to 2nd with MGP car in this conditions? And he is 42 don't forget. What was his age in Benetton and Ferrari? Before starting to reevaluate his Benetton and Ferrari days. Reevaluate his 7 titles and 91 wins and 1 billion in the bank. Good time with that. He was slow enough to win 7 titles. :rotfl: He really have chance to win 10-11 titles by now. When he win it is about the car, but when he can't win it is him?????? To be honest car can never win without driver. Somebody need to push those pedals, make thousand gear changes, steer the car, to stop in the pit in exact place and many more things. Give me one example of car winning without the driver.


Your proving my point. You can not separate car and driver, so why do you do it?

When he loses it is the car, and when he wins it's him. That what we have heard for 20 years now. It is horseshit. If the car he drove in the 90's were as bad as his fans made out he would not have 7 championships.

The schumacher myth is the most circular and unstable argument made in F1. When he wins it is him. When he loses it is the car. When he can not win now it is because he is old (age being no excuse for Hill I might add). But when he goes good in Canada age no longer comes into it. His fans create a web of excuses and undermine his achievements without even realizing it.

MS is probably the best driver in history. His fans want to make him a god and then wonder why he can no longer do miracles. So they make up one excuse after the other and contradict the very arguments they made for him 10 years ago.

Then: Team support mean nothing, only talent. So MS team mates are just not as good, they are not disadvantaged by the team.
Now: Mercedes are not treating their drivers equal. Not MS fault.
Then: You make your won luck.
Now: He has been unlucky. Not MS fault.
Then: Only the numbers matter.
Now: You have to look at other factors, not just results. (unless it is still looking at his wins and championships)
Then : He can win in anything.
Now: You need a good car. No one could win in this car.
Then: Good drivers can drive around problems.
Now: The car doesn't suit his driving style.
Then: Age and time out the car means nothing. Talent will shine through. (Hill, JV)
Now: It takes time.
Then: Mind games are a part of the sport.
Now: Nico is a big bad bully.

And it goes on and on. Double standards. Ever changing playing field. Horseshit upon horseshit.

MS has shown since he returned that he is today a fast driver. He could still win races if in a top car... But a MS in his prime would not win races in that Mercedes. Hence why all that hype in the 90's is starting to unravel.





#10843 arknor

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 12:31

I think the point is that MS was supposed to be able to win in any car. His reputation was built on the the idea that in any team, in any given season, he would win races. When he won races in bad cars, all the experts claimed that only he could of done that.

What we are seeing now is that this is false. MS can not win in an uncompetitive car. MS from 95, 98, 2002 etc could not win in this Mercedes. The car is at least 1 second per lap off the pace in a race, maybe even 2. Alonso, Lewis, no one would win in this car without dumb luck... But this was what he was supposedly able to do throughout his career. This is what his reputation was built on.

What MS's return should do is lead people to reevaluate many of the Ferrari's and Benetton's of the 90's. How slow where they really? Certainly not as slow as a 2011 Mercedes. He had competitive cars through his entire first F1 stint that allowed him to win lots of races and he built his reputation on this. It is a bit rich to now use uncompetitive cars as an excuse for not winning.

did you actually watch f1 back then? the cars have changed so much that a mid field car has no chance dont try to say alonso , hamilton , vettel would be winning races in the force india or the merc because they wouldnt

#10844 Jazza

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 13:09

did you actually watch f1 back then? the cars have changed so much that a mid field car has no chance dont try to say alonso , hamilton , vettel would be winning races in the force india or the merc because they wouldnt


I watched F1 back then. I could also read back then, as I can now. How about you?

"Alonso, Lewis, no one could win in this car without dumb luck"

I have always maintained that Schumacher, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Hakkinen, Senna, Prost, etc are all insanely overrated. They were all great drivers, probably the best of their time, but could not win in genuinely crap cars. So called crap cars where still 2nd and 3rd fastest McLarens Ferrari's etc, and often needed the fastest car to have some kind of problem. Already this year we have seen Hamilton and button win in a "crap" car by Schumacher fans standards (that is, anything that isn't the fastest car of that year).

The fan boys always want to separate the car and the driver... When their driver is not winning. They also want to separate the car and driver when a driver they don't rate starts winning. i.e. Hill won in a neweymobile, and Schumacher won in a truck. Neither is true, but it fits the fanboy paradigm.

The 98 schumcher would not win in the 2011 Mercedes. The car is too slow. But I have seen enough the last 18 months to believe that 2011 MS could win in a 98 Ferrari. He has certainly proven to me that he still a fast driver. The fanboys how ever are trying to have it both ways. They want to pretend that MS was a god, who's old age has brought him down to the level of the mortals (rosberg). That somehow the Prime MS of old could still win today, and the current one would not win the 90's because his cars back then where so shit. No ones fallen for it.







#10845 schuey100

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 13:24

Yes it is. His comeback has not been a success.


Success in terms of what? Certainly in just over a year we have 270+ pages on him, the interest from even people that dislike him is huge.

If we're going by his points total or how he has fared compared to his team mate. well success is very much dependent on what his initial aim was. I'd guess that he wanted to race for enjoyment, I bet he's still enjoying it or he'd be gone. No doubt he would have liked to be WDC by now but to be fair you could put any driver from history in the Mercedes and they would not be WDC.

Would he like to be WDC? Sure. Is it possible? No. Is he enjoying himself? Very likely.

Now you may have believed him to be on the podium every race, expected it maybe and therefore his comeback would not be a success in your eyes but that then is a personal judgement rather than anything factual.

But again, he's talked about almost as much, if not more than every other driver, in terms of F1 popularity and adding excitement to F1 is comeback is a massive success. I'm very happy he's back and funnily enough, this thread is filled with people who used to dislike him but are really happy to see him especially when he does well. That in itself is a success.

But whatever, I don't suppose t really matters what you or I think.

#10846 MightyMoose

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 13:25

Things change, let's check the differences between then & now.

Reliability is a crucial fact, we've just had the largest amount of finishers ever, in previous years many cars retired every race. For example, was MS the best at Spain 01? No, but he won because Hakkinen retired on the final lap....in 30 years people won't see an asterisk next to it saying he led 1/4 of a lap... it's a win and that's all that matters.

Additionally if a Stewart can win in 99, an Arrows get as close as it did in Hungary 97, and Ligier win in 96 you have to factor in the totally unexpected sequence of accidents, weather or just a perfect combination of tyres on a given day. Tyres are no longer a variable to the extent that 1 company works better than the other. Weather can throw up a curveball but even in Canada it would have needed more to get MS to the win.

The gaps between the cars is now smaller I'm sure, previously a 1 second gap to the pole sitter probably put you 4th on the grid, now you're battling for 8th at best.

To cut it short, these days a 4th quickest car which is what the Merc is at best, will need a lot more favorable events to win a race, the driver isn't going to be too negative (unless he wipes his nose on a passing Russian!), nor too positive to the final result.

Anyone who claims MS is as good as ever is guilty of not being objective, but then anyone who claims he's always been over-rated and it was purely the car/tyre set up/compromised team mate is even more biased towards a negative agenda.


#10847 ivand911

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 13:30

I don't think this year McL and Ferrari are crap cars. I never thought that Ferrari after 1997 were crap cars, even 1996 was second fastest car I think? Or maybe third fastest car. But, 1996 car look good because MS was driving it. It was not very easy car I think. With 1996 Benetton MS could win the WDC easily I think. Alesi and Berger didn't win championship with it. MS put this Ferrari above McL and Benetton that year. I never thought that MS can win race in Minardi, maybe if first 5-6 strongest teams didn't participate in the race :p . Who said he can win with every car, I hear this for the first time? I don't consider 2nd or 3rd fastest cars crap as I said. Michael won some championships in not the best car.

Edited by ivand911, 28 June 2011 - 13:31.


#10848 sharo

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:18

The whole crap "Schumacher can win in any car" is in fact an over exaggeration brought by trolls and Schumacher detractors to tease his fans and negate the actual achievements with lesser cars. No man in his right mind will claim the above seriously.
It has always been the combination driver + car. And back then, when not everything was predefined and controlled by a computer, some drivers could extract a bit more from generally a lesser car. For example IIRC the 1994 Benetton had manual gear change. (have to check, not quite sure)
The same attitude from the same people we see now. Instead of appreciating that at 42 he is still competitive and in fact gaining in form, they want, no they even demand, him to do miracles.
It's childish and stupid. It reflects only the personality of such people - some, who have witnessed his career, cannot overcome the hatred, others simply do not know what they are talking about, because what they know they have learned mostly from internet forums.

I am a fan of Michael since the start of his career, but seldom take part in this thread, because it and some others are too far away from a sensible discussion. He knows his value, his true fans also know his value, so nothing can change history and facts, nothing can discredit his achievements in reality, only in the minds of some who most of all desire to see him fail and take the desirable for real.

Edited by sharo, 28 June 2011 - 15:19.


#10849 spacekid

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 18:23

Great post sharo :up:

#10850 man

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 19:00

The whole crap "Schumacher can win in any car" is in fact an over exaggeration brought by trolls and Schumacher detractors to tease his fans and negate the actual achievements with lesser cars. No man in his right mind will claim the above seriously.
It has always been the combination driver + car. And back then, when not everything was predefined and controlled by a computer, some drivers could extract a bit more from generally a lesser car. For example IIRC the 1994 Benetton had manual gear change. (have to check, not quite sure)
The same attitude from the same people we see now. Instead of appreciating that at 42 he is still competitive and in fact gaining in form, they want, no they even demand, him to do miracles.
It's childish and stupid. It reflects only the personality of such people - some, who have witnessed his career, cannot overcome the hatred, others simply do not know what they are talking about, because what they know they have learned mostly from internet forums.

I am a fan of Michael since the start of his career, but seldom take part in this thread, because it and some others are too far away from a sensible discussion. He knows his value, his true fans also know his value, so nothing can change history and facts, nothing can discredit his achievements in reality, only in the minds of some who most of all desire to see him fail and take the desirable for real.


I stopped reading after the 1994 Benetton manual gear change bit. :-)