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#10901 ViMaMo

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 10:58

I like Michael but I also respect the drivers of today. Young Michael wouldnt have trashed these guys, but it would have been a tough fight maybe like 2000 or 2003 or 2006, he might or might not have got better of them.

Edited by ViMaMo, 29 June 2011 - 11:00.


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#10902 gdanskii

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:03

What made me appreciate what MS has done more, is when Coulthard stepped into the redbull simulator and could bearly cope with all the new stuff an f1 car has, let alone drive at speed, and coulthard has been out a similiar amount of time.

Whether he's as quick or not, i defy anybody to stop doing something for 3 years, jump back into and perform at a level that is comparable to the best in the world.

And MS caused me enough pain through the years, i was Damon, Mika, JPM, anyone who would take the fight to him fan. But for anyone to sit there and not be impressed, well i'm staggered.

#10903 sharo

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:20

@gdanskii :up:
I guess I'm lucky for choosing him as my favorite and having pleasure instead of pain :)
And, the names you mention IMO just defy the claims that he had weak competitors. Especially Mika whom I've always regarded with great respect. JPM for that matter had more natural talent and speed (but IMO did not pay much attention to developing) which Michael compensated by hard work, training and dedication.

#10904 LiJu914

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:02

I think this whole MS/Hakkinen/Coulthard/XZY-comparison basically leads to nothing.

Testing is´nt racing and "simulating" is even less.

We simply can´t measure Schumachers potential drop-off in performance between his "prime" and today.

All we can say is, that there is much likely a drop-off. You can notice it in every sport, even in more or less non-physical categories like chess.
But i think the more intersting question than "How much better was MS in his prime?" is "How good is he today?"
2010 was quite awful, if you look at the season as a whole. I think that was more due to his three-year break than his age. 2011 is much better (atm).

But still...How good or bad is his 2011-performance-level?
What kind of bugs me, is that Rosberg is still a little bit "unkown material".
He was ok against Webber in his rookie-season and than he had two below-average teammates until MS came.
I would love to see Rosberg next to Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, then we would have a clearer picture.

Edited by LiJu914, 29 June 2011 - 13:57.


#10905 as65p

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:13

But that just proves what I said earlier on right here, that he cannot be consistently quick and would lose a lot of time as a result. I've even used the phrase 'what you do lose a lot of ' there, or are you too blinded to read? :D

The only difference is that I -like many others- thought Schumacher could overcome even this deficit with time, this hasn't happened.


Only difference? :lol:

Some 14 months ago you wondered "What's all this Michael part I/II stuff?". Nowadays all you seem to do is propagating how different MS part I was to part II, seconds faster and all... :drunk:

Looks more like a U-turn of hamiltonesque proportions to me! :D

#10906 T-Mobile

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:22

Looks more like a U-turn of hamiltonesque proportions to me! :D


:clap:

Hamiltonesque, I am going to start using that word. Unfortunately my friends aren't into F1 and will have no clue.

To be on-topic a bit, I just saw a stat about total career GP laps led. Michael has well over 5,000, while Vettel apparently just eclipsed 1,000. Fernando Alonso has around 1,300. Michael however had more than 2,000 more laps led than the guy in second. Again, that's kind of ridiculous.

#10907 Jazza

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:35

Dear god. :rolleyes:

Point 1: Hakkinen was testing the car, the quotes and the fact that he did 80 laps prove this, no matter what it is that you believe inside your head.

Point 2: Hakkinen was 3 seconds off the pace despite having done so many laps and would have had to do at least some at racing speeds to achieve their intended aims (feedback & comparison of the cars)

Point 3: A large part of the 3 second gap was down to him having been out of action for five years because McLaren would not have wasted so much mileage and time continuing with the test had they not believed he would up his pace sooner rather than later.

Point 4: Schumacher would also have had to lose a similar amount of pace in five years and returning at 42, more in ten.

I'm done with this. If you still don't understand I'll know you're just trolling. :rolleyes:


For someone who tells other people they are making assumptions, you speak a lot of shit. Read your points again, and then count how many assumptions you make in them. "would have", "would not have", "had they not believed", "would also", "similar". All assumptions that lead to conclusions which are not known for sure.

If you think I'm a troll then by all means report me and let the moderator decide. I was genuinely trying to discuss this, but I could not see what you were trying to argue. You may see both the logic and relevancy of your argument, but I can not. You obviously see a strong connection between Mika's one day on track and Michael's age, I do not. Apparently Mika's one off test day answers how much speed Schumacher has lost in ten years (with out making any assumptions mind you), I don't see how. If that makes me a troll, again I say, so be it. If you think you have a case, hit the report button. If you want a forum where everyone sees everything the same way you do, hit the ignore button. Alternatively we can forget this exchange and look forward to the next race. Up to you.



#10908 man

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:45

I think this whole MS/Hakkinen/Coulthard/XZY-comparison basically leads to nothing.

Testing is´nt racing and "simulating" is even less.

We simply can´t measure Schumachers potential drop-off in performance between his "prime" and today.

All we can say is, that there is much likely a drop-off. You can notice it in every sport, even in more or less non-physical categories like chess.
But i think the more intersting question than "How much better was MS in his prime?" is "How good is he today?"
2010 was quite awful, if you look at the season as a whole. I think that was more due to his three-year break than his age. 2011 is much better (atm).

But still...How good or bad is his 2011-performance-level?
What kind of bugs me, is that Rosberg is still a little bit "unkown material".
He was ok against Webber in his rookie-season and than he had two below-average teammates until MS came.
I would love to see the Rosberg next to Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, than we would have a clearer picture.


Me too, however, I think the battering Rosberg would take could get ugly. Rosberg would be a decent number 2 driver to one of the top drivers I think. But in fairness, I do get the impression he does have a bit more performance in his pocket if only he had a more competitive teammate to push him.

#10909 ivand911

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 13:56

What the hell happen here?? :p Can we stop discussing what people said 5-10 years ago. We are here now and we discuss what happen now. And what we say. There isn't words to describe what MS did from 1991 to 2006. He come in 2010 and in first test he was 0,4sec from Massa in the first test. Jumping in the car and 0,4 sec. I would love to see all guys from now driving 1994 Benetton. Or 1996 Ferrari and after that to discuss how easy was for Michael to do what he did. Or 1991/1992/1993 Benetton. Or some of Williams cars from 1991 to 1997. Because Michael is on their territory now(I mean modern drivers). In their cars. Lewis drove Senna car and he say if I remember correctly, that he can't imagine doing full race distance with it. Michael not only have 91 wins, but he participate in many more GP where he also excel. Priceless stuff. Jazza we get what you think about MS, can you stop now? It is time for more praise. :wave:

man, funny as always. :rotfl:

Edited by ivand911, 29 June 2011 - 13:58.


#10910 LiJu914

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:09

We are here now and we discuss what happen now.
....
1991 to 2006.
...Or 1996
...Or 1991/1992/1993
...1991 to 1997.


I see. :rolleyes:

#10911 ivand911

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:20

I see. :rolleyes:

Do you see this happening? I don't.
Numbers mean nothing,it is my idea only. I don't claim anything.
1500,1600,1700,1996,1997,1998,1999,2000.
Some numbers for you to put in your next answer.

Edited by ivand911, 29 June 2011 - 14:22.


#10912 Jazza

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:22

What the hell happen here?? :p Can we stop discussing what people said 5-10 years ago. We are here now and we discuss what happen now. And what we say. There isn't words to describe what MS did from 1991 to 2006. He come in 2010 and in first test he was 0,4sec from Massa in the first test. Jumping in the car and 0,4 sec. I would love to see all guys from now driving 1994 Benetton. Or 1996 Ferrari and after that to discuss how easy was for Michael to do what he did. Or 1991/1992/1993 Benetton. Or some of Williams cars from 1991 to 1997. Because Michael is on their territory now(I mean modern drivers). In their cars. Lewis drove Senna car and he say if I remember correctly, that he can't imagine doing full race distance with it. Michael not only have 91 wins, but he participate in many more GP where he also excel. Priceless stuff. Jazza we get what you think about MS, can you stop now? It is time for more praise. :wave:

man, funny as always. :rotfl:


Yes because I am such a hater. My gosh, if only that dickhead didn't exist my life would be soooo much better. :rolleyes:

What is it that I think about MS? That he is possibly the greatest driver ever. That he was the best of his generation. That he is still today a very fast and good driver. That I am still cheering for his first win at Mercedes. What is it that I think about him that I should stop saying?

You go from thread to thread putting crap on other drivers, but then get taken back if anyone doesn't see your hero as wonderfully as you do. I wish I could call it funny, but it's just sad.

Edited by Jazza, 29 June 2011 - 14:24.


#10913 ivand911

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 14:33

Jazza we get what you think about MS, can you stop now? It is time for more praise. :wave:
You have to read it like this. If you don't have sense of humor..........
What other drivers?(OT) Last think I said about other driver was "Happy Birthday Nico Rosberg". How evil am I.

Edited by ivand911, 29 June 2011 - 14:34.


#10914 BRK

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 15:53

Only difference? :lol:

Some 14 months ago you wondered "What's all this Michael part I/II stuff?". Nowadays all you seem to do is propagating how different MS part I was to part II, seconds faster and all... :drunk:

Looks more like a U-turn of hamiltonesque proportions to me! :D


:rolleyes:

Again, what I said back then and what I've been arguing now are the same with one difference. I said age takes away some of the edge in that you'd lost the ability to do quick laps consistently.

However yes, I was wrong about one thing, I did think Schumacher would manage to close this deficit in time and sooner, it has taken longer than I expected, but as we have seen he has the immense talent to improve, adapt, and bridge even this gap at 42, he is performing better this year than in 2010 -the improvement is there for all to see. As Luca di said after Montreal, it has taken longer, but it has happened to a degree.

So yeah -I don't know what your point is other than to post out of spite. Which brings me to the next thing...

For someone who tells other people they are making assumptions, you speak a lot of shit. Read your points again, and then count how many assumptions you make in them. "would have", "would not have", "had they not believed", "would also", "similar". All assumptions that lead to conclusions which are not known for sure.

If you think I'm a troll then by all means report me and let the moderator decide. I was genuinely trying to discuss this, but I could not see what you were trying to argue. You may see both the logic and relevancy of your argument, but I can not. You obviously see a strong connection between Mika's one day on track and Michael's age, I do not. Apparently Mika's one off test day answers how much speed Schumacher has lost in ten years (with out making any assumptions mind you), I don't see how. If that makes me a troll, again I say, so be it. If you think you have a case, hit the report button. If you want a forum where everyone sees everything the same way you do, hit the ignore button. Alternatively we can forget this exchange and look forward to the next race. Up to you.


.........I see. These are Hakkinen's own words after the test:

“Although it was great fun today I also had to do some serious work for the team, as any feedback I could give them from today's experience will help them with their preparations for the 2007 season.

As a result I was really pushing to try and do the best job that I could to assist them in any way possible.”

“I spent the morning really acclimatising to the environment of the cockpit again and just getting to grips with driving a 2006 car, I didn't expect to be quick straight away, and Barcelona is of course a hard track on both the car and driver,” he said.

“It took several laps before I was up to speed, but we were all expecting this to be the case.

“We have done some good work today and got some great results and I am really grateful to the team for this opportunity and the mechanics for working so hard for me."

"Maybe with the fuel level down to a minimum, maybe then we could get down to a good lap time," he said.

"The plan was to run the same fuel level all the time, which are high enough to work on the race configuration.

"Maybe if we had a new set of tyres then maybe the lap time could have been 1.2 to two seconds faster. That (lap times) was not the issue."


There is enough in there for anybody but someone blind or stupidly obstinate to admit Hakkinen just lacked pace, no matter what the case. His early laps had been much slower than his later laps, that should tell you he got up to speed like any other driver would. He did push and he did set representative lap times, otherwise he would not have said the bits I've highlighted. He even goes on to say the maximum he could have done was a lap 1.2 seconds to two seconds quicker, which would still leave him over a second off the pace. Schumacher was not this slow when he similarly jumped into the Ferrari for testing, compared to the same Badoer. The difference is that MS was only a year into retirement while MH was five, that's what caused such a wide gulf, is my point.

Considering this it isn't at all unreasonable to think Schumacher would have lost just as much pace as Hakkinen himself did, which was perhaps in the area of a second at least. As you are not capable of making this simple connection or admit it may have been possible, I see no way of convincing someone so foolishly adamant, and there's no point to continuing this discussion. Ignore button it is. Not for the trolling but for the weird feeling I get that I'm basically replying to the same poster twice.



#10915 Jazza

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:13

Thank goodness that's over. The most ridicules discussion I have ever had in 12 years on this forum.

#10916 weston

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:28

"Ecclestone added that Vettel's recent dominance was even more impressive than Schumacher's.

'The competition Sebastian is facing is much bigger than that confronted by Michael. That makes Seb's wins even more noteworthy. I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be a Red Bull era just as Ferrari had theirs with Michael.'"

Source: http://en.espnf1.com...tory/52946.html

I guess it's a compliment from BE.


#10917 as65p

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:41

:rolleyes:

Again, what I said back then and what I've been arguing now are the same with one difference. I said age takes away some of the edge in that you'd lost the ability to do quick laps consistently.

However yes, I was wrong about one thing, I did think Schumacher would manage to close this deficit in time and sooner, it has taken longer than I expected, but as we have seen he has the immense talent to improve, adapt, and bridge even this gap at 42, he is performing better this year than in 2010 -the improvement is there for all to see. As Luca di said after Montreal, it has taken longer, but it has happened to a degree.

So yeah -I don't know what your point is other than to post out of spite. Which brings me to the next thing...


One difference that makes all the difference. You argued completely opposite positions then and now.

But it's an interesting line of thought from you, expecting time to overcome age (the bolded parts). Pretty original I have to say. :drunk: :up:

Just stop digging, for everyones sake. Please, with sugar on top.


#10918 Paco

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:48

"Ecclestone added that Vettel's recent dominance was even more impressive than Schumacher's.

'The competition Sebastian is facing is much bigger than that confronted by Michael. That makes Seb's wins even more noteworthy. I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be a Red Bull era just as Ferrari had theirs with Michael.'"

Source: http://en.espnf1.com...tory/52946.html

I guess it's a compliment from BE.


I'll agree with him. That being said, Vettel needs to keep this up for a few more years to come to truly challenge what Michael did for a decade.

#10919 BRK

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 16:50

One difference that makes all the difference. You argued completely opposite positions then and now.

But it's an interesting line of thought from you, expecting time to overcome age (the bolded parts). Pretty original I have to say. :drunk: :up:

Just stop digging, for everyones sake. Please, with sugar on top.


No it doesn't and no I'm not, although I did admit I was wrong about his being able to overcome the gap. When he was back in F1 and back in the groove I thought with time he would gradually go back to where he should have been at 42, still, in my opinion, very quick and certainly quicker than he is today. Though I admit I was wrong about that, you win, end of discussion.

"Ecclestone added that Vettel's recent dominance was even more impressive than Schumacher's.

'The competition Sebastian is facing is much bigger than that confronted by Michael. That makes Seb's wins even more noteworthy. I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be a Red Bull era just as Ferrari had theirs with Michael.'"

Source: http://en.espnf1.com...tory/52946.html

I guess it's a compliment from BE.


All that tells me is that Seb Vettel Bernie's new favoured son. As it should be, I think.

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#10920 Dino G

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 17:10

Considering I tried to get out of this ever heating discussion on the last page, and then tried again on this one, and yet again I got brought back into it by people like yourself, I wonder who the real troll is?

How about you let the thread simply move on without trying to add fuel to the fire. What was said has been said, everyone has had enough, let it rest with out useless troll accusations.



Well, I just read how you blew into this discussion and if you weren't trolling, you were being intellectually dishonest, at the very least and backtracked quite bit from your initial post. Whether to get a rise or you truly believe what you are typing is something that you can only answer. I think your later posts have more merit and rational thinking than the earlier gibberish about Michael of 10 years ago.

Fact of the matter is there is one big equation that you are missing. In 2010, he stepped into Jenson Button's car. Their styles couldn't be more different. The 2011 car is a continuation of that with his input. I am thinking that once he gets into "his" car, as he did at Benetton 1995 and Ferrari in 1998 and onwards he will be closer to the front and of course with RedBull's blown diffuser elimination losing as much as .5 a lap, as reported today. When he did that lap in 07 in the Ferrari, it was "his" car. He developed it in the last year didn't he?

Michael, at his age, cannot expect to run the team as he did at ferrari. I think he seems to be more diplomatic but I don't doubt for a second that he is pushing Brawn et al to listen to his demands over Rosberg.

#10921 Augurk

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:09

"Ecclestone added that Vettel's recent dominance was even more impressive than Schumacher's.

'The competition Sebastian is facing is much bigger than that confronted by Michael. That makes Seb's wins even more noteworthy. I don't see a reason why there shouldn't be a Red Bull era just as Ferrari had theirs with Michael.'"

Source: http://en.espnf1.com...tory/52946.html

I guess it's a compliment from BE.



I'll agree with him. That being said, Vettel needs to keep this up for a few more years to come to truly challenge what Michael did for a decade.



All that tells me is that Seb Vettel Bernie's new favoured son. As it should be, I think.

Let's not forget it's right up Bernies alley to claim the competition level right now is greater than in that period. It makes f1 now all the more interesting and special if that were true. I for one don't believe it.

#10922 DutchCruijff

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:57

When MSC dominated during the Ferrari years there was little doubt of him being the best pilot around due to his performances in his early Ferrari years and WC titles with Benetton. Wary of what Vettel has done to be labelled as the best now let alone be compared to Schumacher.

#10923 ivand911

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 20:18

I don't think we have many people here that will claim than MS didn't have the biggest impact in F1 in the time they followed F1.

#10924 jjpm

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 01:35

facts :
ROS Q1 1:39.266 Q2 1:38.373 Q3 1:38.231
SCH Q1 1:39.198 Q2 1:38.365 Q3 1:38.240

MSC +0.009 over ROS

1994 : MSC banned for 2 GP watch the Portugal GP from the stand yet on the day after he take Joe Verstappen's Benetton as is for some test laps and turn in +- 1 second faster than Jos did in qualifying...

Pole : BERGER Ferrari 1'20''608
10. VERSTAPPEN Benetton 1'22''000

Edited by jjpm, 30 June 2011 - 01:48.


#10925 Jazza

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 02:07

Well, I just read how you blew into this discussion and if you weren't trolling, you were being intellectually dishonest, at the very least and backtracked quite bit from your initial post. Whether to get a rise or you truly believe what you are typing is something that you can only answer. I think your later posts have more merit and rational thinking than the earlier gibberish about Michael of 10 years ago.

Fact of the matter is there is one big equation that you are missing. In 2010, he stepped into Jenson Button's car. Their styles couldn't be more different. The 2011 car is a continuation of that with his input. I am thinking that once he gets into "his" car, as he did at Benetton 1995 and Ferrari in 1998 and onwards he will be closer to the front and of course with RedBull's blown diffuser elimination losing as much as .5 a lap, as reported today. When he did that lap in 07 in the Ferrari, it was "his" car. He developed it in the last year didn't he?

Michael, at his age, cannot expect to run the team as he did at ferrari. I think he seems to be more diplomatic but I don't doubt for a second that he is pushing Brawn et al to listen to his demands over Rosberg.


I have never doubted that the Mercedes does not work with his style. Every driver wants the car to work for them, instead of having to fight it. It is obvious that this years Redbull fits Vettel more than Mark, and that Mark hasn't simply forgoten how to driver. That's all fine.

I also don't doubt that the 95 Benetton didn't work for Herbert, or the 2001 Ferrari with Rubens, for examples. Why didn't that excuse work then? It seems many fans have woken up to the fact that cars and driving styles need to gel, yet are unwilling to revaluate the 90's with this new knowledge. That's being intellectually dishonest, and that's what my fist post was about. The reasons given for MS problems now are 100% valid, but are not being applied to others. When he beat others it was all talent no excuses, while now when he gets beaten the excuses are valid. His reputation was built on the way he crushed his team mates, yet now that he is struggling against his there are reasons for it and the team mate comparisons don't count. It has to work both ways.

Whatever measuring stick was used to evaluate MS in his first career needs to be used now, or what ever stick we are currently using should be used to reevaluate his younger self. The arguments of; MS crushed his team mates equals all talent, and he won this race and his car is shit equals all talent, coupled with you need a car that fits your style, and no one can win in an uncompeative car, is a contradiction.

Many of his fans finally get it, that a drivers results have a whole list of factors and is not just raw speed, yet at the same time still want to hold to the idea that raw speed is what separated MS from everyone else 10 years ago. It was clearly more than that, hence why I said his drives ten years ago need to be reevaluated. It was not some troll post of "MS today proves how shit he always was" or something like that.

Edited by Jazza, 30 June 2011 - 02:11.


#10926 Afterburner

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:16

But it's an interesting line of thought from you, expecting time to overcome age (the bolded parts). Pretty original I have to say. :drunk: :up:

It can if Schumacher can improve at a rate faster than age is deteriorating his skills, which is difficult but not impossible.

I have never doubted that the Mercedes does not work with his style. Every driver wants the car to work for them, instead of having to fight it. It is obvious that this years Redbull fits Vettel more than Mark, and that Mark hasn't simply forgoten how to driver. That's all fine.

I also don't doubt that the 95 Benetton didn't work for Herbert, or the 2001 Ferrari with Rubens, for examples. Why didn't that excuse work then? It seems many fans have woken up to the fact that cars and driving styles need to gel, yet are unwilling to revaluate the 90's with this new knowledge. That's being intellectually dishonest, and that's what my fist post was about. The reasons given for MS problems now are 100% valid, but are not being applied to others. When he beat others it was all talent no excuses, while now when he gets beaten the excuses are valid. His reputation was built on the way he crushed his team mates, yet now that he is struggling against his there are reasons for it and the team mate comparisons don't count. It has to work both ways.

Whatever measuring stick was used to evaluate MS in his first career needs to be used now, or what ever stick we are currently using should be used to reevaluate his younger self. The arguments of; MS crushed his team mates equals all talent, and he won this race and his car is shit equals all talent, coupled with you need a car that fits your style, and no one can win in an uncompeative car, is a contradiction.

Many of his fans finally get it, that a drivers results have a whole list of factors and is not just raw speed, yet at the same time still want to hold to the idea that raw speed is what separated MS from everyone else 10 years ago. It was clearly more than that, hence why I said his drives ten years ago need to be reevaluated. It was not some troll post of "MS today proves how shit he always was" or something like that.

Oddly, I agree with most of your post. MS is a special talent, in my opinion, but he also had great cars--I'd have to say that anyone who thinks otherwise would be slightly delusional. The difference between the MS of then and the MS of now is the fact that in his heyday he had the ability to spend day upon day testing a car to hone its speed and develop it to become a super-machine. Today's regulations don't allow for that. I've always thought that MS's real talent is in his developmental skills rather than his speed--his ability to feel what's going on with the car at any individual moment and react to it in a way that would make the car quicker. Back in the unlimited-testing days, this allowed him to essentially work towards building cars that did exactly what he wanted--cars he felt confident in and could drive quickly.

Nowadays, testing is different. In my opinion, car development is more in the hands of the engineers these days than the drivers. With less testing available to the teams, they can't really develop the basic form of the cars on track, with the drivers' input. They more or less get the package they're dealt, and if it's trash, then there's not much that any driver can do to improve it before the season is well underway. When Merc develops a car that is quite frankly slow in relation to its target competition, the drivers can't do much to change that--especially if the car is fundamentally flawed. Back to the drawing board, let's hope it's quick next year.

MS had some special races, but he also had a special team behind him--something he wasn't ever hesitant to remind everybody with every victory. I can't remember a time that Schumacher didn't thank his team for one of his wins. What I think most don't get is that Schumacher knows that you can't win on your own talent alone--the idea that the car helps you achieve success is something I think he's had figured out since the early 2000's, and that's why he's often placed an emphasis on winning being a team effort. The issue with his second career isn't so much that he's "lost it" in comparison to his teammate, in my opinion (though I do believe that his hiatus has sapped a good amount of his speed), but that he can't get a team to work together the way he did in the Ferrari years--especially when his teammate is putting up a very convincing fight on track. Until the team gets its act together, I don't think we'll see the MS of old make a return.

Edited by Afterburner, 30 June 2011 - 04:19.


#10927 zack1994

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 04:39


Michael skills are already gone and they wont be coming back im afraid.
Just think of it like this if david coulthard got back into the car next year would he be the same driver he was i dont think so.

#10928 BRK

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 05:11

It can if Schumacher can improve at a rate faster than age is deteriorating his skills, which is difficult but not impossible.


Correct. I don't know what was so wrong with thinking a part of the edge that's lost to age comes back with time, time spent racing cars, not spent reminiscing by a fireplace. My belief was that as you spend time back in the groove, following the same fitness regime and so forth, a lot of the speed begins to return. I was wrong in that I thought it would come back completely and would happen sooner. Still, there has been an improvement between 2010 and 2011, IMO he hasn't got the edge back but he is better now.

#10929 Dino G

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 16:29

I have never doubted that the Mercedes does not work with his style. Every driver wants the car to work for them, instead of having to fight it. It is obvious that this years Redbull fits Vettel more than Mark, and that Mark hasn't simply forgoten how to driver. That's all fine.

I also don't doubt that the 95 Benetton didn't work for Herbert, or the 2001 Ferrari with Rubens, for examples. Why didn't that excuse work then? It seems many fans have woken up to the fact that cars and driving styles need to gel, yet are unwilling to revaluate the 90's with this new knowledge. That's being intellectually dishonest, and that's what my fist post was about. The reasons given for MS problems now are 100% valid, but are not being applied to others. When he beat others it was all talent no excuses, while now when he gets beaten the excuses are valid. His reputation was built on the way he crushed his team mates, yet now that he is struggling against his there are reasons for it and the team mate comparisons don't count. It has to work both ways.

Whatever measuring stick was used to evaluate MS in his first career needs to be used now, or what ever stick we are currently using should be used to reevaluate his younger self. The arguments of; MS crushed his team mates equals all talent, and he won this race and his car is shit equals all talent, coupled with you need a car that fits your style, and no one can win in an uncompeative car, is a contradiction.

Many of his fans finally get it, that a drivers results have a whole list of factors and is not just raw speed, yet at the same time still want to hold to the idea that raw speed is what separated MS from everyone else 10 years ago. It was clearly more than that, hence why I said his drives ten years ago need to be reevaluated. It was not some troll post of "MS today proves how shit he always was" or something like that.



The excuse did work then. It was common knowledge that drivers that shared the car with Schumacher were driving, essentially, short of wing and other minor changes, HIS car. They all had their opportunities to impress and when Schumi wiped the floor with them, the team centrerd their car design on what he likes, which is a cra built around oversteer. I think it was Herbert who had to take a double look at telemetry that showed Schumi 20km/hr faster in some corners while testing. Either him or Brundle.

I think you choose to believe that the excuses did not hold any merit with the fanboys. I, for one, remember clearly that these drivers had to adapt to his setup and it made the gaps more difficult. This car, right now, is not his car and while he is doing much better than last year, I am banking on him improveing even more next year as they work on the 2012 car. I think extremists will always exist, whether they are Lewis fans, Schumi fans, or the ever popular Jacques fans who will only see things one way (I am a Jacques guy, don't get me started!) but I think most reasonable, balanced F1 fans understand what happened then and what is happening now. I fyou want to beat down on the Uber Schumi fan...it ain't gonna work!

#10930 Sakae

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 16:52

I think you choose to believe that the excuses did not hold any merit with the fanboys. I, for one, remember clearly that these drivers had to adapt to his setup and it made the gaps more difficult.



I do follow Michael since his Bennetton days, and it never fails to be pointed out by his detractors, that not a single team, including Ferrari, will build a car around you, unless they understand benefits of choosing that direction. Schumacher had shown convincing talent, he has demonstrated speed, and Ferrari would have been pretty dimwitted to kill it, rather than explore it. Herbert, as others, had every chance to destroy Schumacher in real or potential terms on the track, and then he could walk into JT's office and demand a design change!

History suggest that he has never reached a level that he could actully convert this thought about it into some realistic opportunity.

Edited by Sakae, 30 June 2011 - 16:53.


#10931 Dino G

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 17:40

I do follow Michael since his Bennetton days, and it never fails to be pointed out by his detractors, that not a single team, including Ferrari, will build a car around you, unless they understand benefits of choosing that direction. Schumacher had shown convincing talent, he has demonstrated speed, and Ferrari would have been pretty dimwitted to kill it, rather than explore it. Herbert, as others, had every chance to destroy Schumacher in real or potential terms on the track, and then he could walk into JT's office and demand a design change!

History suggest that he has never reached a level that he could actully convert this thought about it into some realistic opportunity.



Exactly. I think most of his teammates preferred an understeering car while he was the opposit and his way was by and large way faster. So his input carried more weight against more experienced scrubs like Brundle and Herbert.

#10932 Math89

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 17:54

Not really on-topic...

Internet couldn't really help me out but does anyone know if any of Schumacher's children are into motor racing competition? His children would be 14 and 12 about now so maybe they would like to follow in their father's footsteps. Me and a friend were talking about various F1 riders who also had kids that started Formula 1 racing so that got me wondering. :)



#10933 exmayol

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 18:42

I think his boy does some karting but uses his mom's last name instead of dad's. MS does a very good job of not exposing his kids.

#10934 Unbiased

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 20:14

Anyone who believes that if Schumacher had been in a RBR/Mclaren/Ferrari last season and not been in the hunt for not only victories, but the championship, has a lot to learn about F1, I am afraid.

You need the car first and foremost. Mercedes has not delivered. They are still Honda, even though they changed so many things (everything it seems), but they still perform in exactly the same way as Honda did.

What is left to change, no one knows.

#10935 ali.unal

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 20:25

FA - Alonso cart - it reads :drunk:

#10936 schuey100

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 21:17

You have been around this forum as long as I have. You must have read the claims that if you want to see the true speed of the cars Schumahcer has driven, look at his team mate.


But isn't this how every elite driver is rated within F1 and relative to others? I mean wouldn't it be fair to say that the true pace of the Ferrari is where Massa puts it and that little bit extra is where Alonso's skill comes into play?

The difference back then of course was that there was a much bigger gap between drivers, the cars and perhaps the skill of the driver was somewhat more important relative to the the machinery compared to today.

You're always going to get mad fans, or should we say 'enthusiastic' fans who believe that Vettel would win the WDC in an HRT but in general most would agree that apart from other elite drivers, Vettel is simply faster, put the majority of the grid in the second Red Bull and they will get soundly beaten. The same was the case in Schumacher's time. Again I suppose the difference would be that today the machinery is a little more dominant and as such there are many drivers that are closer together. Therefore a driver couldn't put a car 1 second ahead of his team mate which was possible in past decades.

#10937 black magic

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 22:12

agreed and yet the difference across the grid is massive this yr. we have had some cars starting despite not being inside the 107% rule. we have the 4th best car qualifying outside a sec per lap of the pole setter which was unusual during the 90s,2000s as I recall. even the gap from red bull to second best has at times being trending towards a sec/lap

#10938 Boing 2

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 09:59

The excuse did work then. It was common knowledge that drivers that shared the car with Schumacher were driving, essentially, short of wing and other minor changes, HIS car. They all had their opportunities to impress and when Schumi wiped the floor with them, the team centrerd their car design on what he likes, which is a cra built around oversteer.


This is self contradictory, if his team mates shared HIS car designed around him, then they never had a fair chance to impress did they? If we look at how badly MS struggled with tyres and handling last year we can say that if he was an unknown driver he would have been labelled as useless and dumped. The ream stuck with him because he was a proven talent. If MS's teammates came in, struggled with a car they didn't like and under performed, they didn't have that luxury, they were simply dumped.

Schumacher had shown convincing talent, he has demonstrated speed, and Ferrari would have been pretty dimwitted to kill it, rather than explore it. Herbert, as others, had every chance to destroy Schumacher in real or potential terms on the track, and then he could walk into JT's office and demand a design change!


The logic of focusing on the faster driver is fine but you can't say that a driver who enters a team which is already focused on the other guy is ever getting a fair crack at it. From day one he's stuck with a car who's handling he may not like and as we've seen from Schumacher himself, that can rob you of enough speed to make anyone look average.


#10939 Gold

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:13

Isn't it true what some people say that driving today is more like a computer game with the almost non-existant torque of the engines? It's almost like a button bashing left to right at the maximum grip level and the perfect track line to within a centimeter. Like repetitive surgery.

Back whenever 85-91 with the massive torque and 1400hp it was more about managing the brutality and violence of wrestling with the car and manual gears at the same limit.

Maybe Schumacher is better at driving in the classical sense rather than the surgery type precision.

Didn't he beat Vettel at the 2010 ROC?

Edited by Gold, 01 July 2011 - 12:14.


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#10940 karlth

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:16

Maybe Schumacher is better at driving in the classical sense rather than the surgery type precision.


Michael said at RoC that he needs to see the front tires. He isn't suited to touring cars for example as his record proved.


#10941 Augurk

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:21

Isn't it true what some people say that driving today is more like a computer game with the almost non-existant torque of the engines? It's almost like a button bashing left to right at the maximum grip level and the perfect track line to within a centimeter. Like repetitive surgery.

Back whenever 85-91 with the massive torque and 1400hp it was more about managing the brutality and violence of wrestling with the car and manual gears at the same limit.

Maybe Schumacher is better at driving in the classical sense rather than the surgery type precision.

Didn't he beat Vettel at the 2010 ROC?

I am quite sure this is something that works against him. Back when driving was actually driving, he was master.

Vettel just beat him in the semi finals at the 2010 ROC I believe.

#10942 differential

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:24

I am quite sure this is something that works against him. Back when driving was actually driving, he was master.

Vettel just beat him in the semi finals at the 2010 ROC I believe.


He lost to Vet in quarters, Vet lost in Semis.

#10943 Clatter

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:31

agreed and yet the difference across the grid is massive this yr. we have had some cars starting despite not being inside the 107% rule. we have the 4th best car qualifying outside a sec per lap of the pole setter which was unusual during the 90s,2000s as I recall. even the gap from red bull to second best has at times being trending towards a sec/lap


The don't think the gaps are that unusual from the past. They only really became close when they changed to having to qualify with race fuel on-board.

#10944 Gold

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:59

The don't think the gaps are that unusual from the past. They only really became close when they changed to having to qualify with race fuel on-board.


No the quali gaps are insane now.

Like

5th. 1:18.735
6th. 1:18.752

That is literally a gap that is almost of no measurable conscious driving input. A consequent half a tenth gap was unheard of back in the 80's and 90's.

Back then the difference between 1st and 2nd was on the order of 0.2 or 0.3 secs usually, bar expectional circumstances like Senna's 1.5s gaps in qualy to everone else.

Or that massive fluke in Jerez 1997 where 3 people set the identical pole position down to the thousanth of a second.

EDIT: They qualify on race fuel capacity now?? I didn't know that. That's so dumb!
Why do they do that?

Edited by Gold, 01 July 2011 - 13:03.


#10945 differential

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 13:00

No the quali gaps are insane now.

Like

5th. 1:18.735
6th. 1:18.752

That is literally a gap that is almost of no measurable conscious driving input. A consequent half a tenth gap was unheard of back in the 80's and 90's.

Back then the difference between 1st and 2nd was on the order of 0.2 or 0.3 secs usually, bar expectional circumstances like Senna's 1.5s gaps in qualy to everone else.

Or that massive fluke in Jerez 1997 where 3 people set the identical pole position down to the thousanth of a second.


Wouldnt call it a fluke lol... abit dodgy.

#10946 Gold

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 13:04

Wouldnt call it a fluke lol... abit dodgy.


You think Tag Heuer or Logines or whoever it was f*cked up?

Could be I guess.

#10947 differential

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 13:14

You think Tag Heuer or Logines or whoever it was f*cked up?

Could be I guess.


Perhaps, but don't want to go off-topic here since this topic has been discussed to death XD.

#10948 race addicted

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 13:34

EDIT: They qualify on race fuel capacity now?? I didn't know that. That's so dumb!
Why do they do that?


They don't now. They used to, from 2003 to and including 2009.

#10949 arknor

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 22:07

The claims and evidence used to support the schumacher myth back then were at time so outlandish it would not be possible to exaggerate them. Friction circle anyone?

You have been around this forum as long as I have. You must have read the claims that if you want to see the true speed of the cars Schumahcer has driven, look at his team mate. When Irvine was in 11th on the grid, wasn't it said that this is where the other Ferrari would be in anyone else hands but Schumacher? Wasn't this how cars where rated back then, and therefore how Schumacher was rated? If he got 6 wins and his team mate got none, this was an indicator of him doing his magic in a slower car.

If Rosberg was qualifying in 15th in each race, I have no doubt the same fans would be saying that this is proof that Schumacher is doing miracles by dragging that Mercedes up to 7th place. That it is only the 8th best car and that it is Michael that is making the difference. Unfortunately, Rosberg is giving the game away by not underperforming in the same car as so many of schumacher's team mates did before him.

what was schumachers average qualifying gap to massa during the seasons they raced together? what is the average between massa and alonso? massa and raikkonen? i bet it says schumacher is atleast on par with them and not some average tard who got lucky

#10950 Poep

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 11:47

what was schumachers average qualifying gap to massa during the seasons they raced together? what is the average between massa and alonso? massa and raikkonen? i bet it says schumacher is atleast on par with them and not some average tard who got lucky

According to Ferrari engineers (quoted in Italian newspaper back then) Schumacher was always half a second faster than Massa in his testing comback in 2007 (same fuel load and aero configuration etc.).

Looking at the gap between Massa and Alonso this season, you can hardly say the same applies. And this is Alonso in his prime!
I think you can compare Massa - Alosno vs Massa - Raikkonnnen. MS is (or was) in a league of his own.

BTW: I don't know how people get the perception that Massa made life diffiult for MS in 2006 and was geting closer to him. Are people forgetting the strategy they were using in 2006 (connfirmed by MS and Todt)?
MS had to finish in front of Alonso every race to still have a chance for the championship back then. But they needed someone between them. Massa had to finish in front of Alonso too. So they decided to qualify Massa lighter so that he starts in font of MS. That way MS could buffer Massa to stay in front during the first stints in the race. Massa always had slow starts and was almost passed by Alonso at the starts. They knew MS would eventually get Massa anyway once te pistops came along by putting those famous fastest laps before pitting. It was the only strategy to play so that MS could catch up faster in the Championship.

Edited by Poep, 02 July 2011 - 11:47.