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#1051 pUs

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 16:17

What irritates me is how all the Schumacher fans use to say "he could win in a Minardi".


Find a quote where I've said so, or please modify that little statement of yours.


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#1052 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 16:17

I also think MS is too old to adapt at this stage of his career..

Jeff Gordon once said that adapting to a new car will always be easier for the new generation drivers who are just entering the sport than to the veterans. - they have less to unlearn..


Hunger is the key word. How hungry is he for success now as well? Does he long for that top step on the podium spraying the champagne? I miss seeing his famous jumps there. Or is he just happy to trundle around the circuits? Anyone got his mobile number so I can ask him? Wow so I am an MS fan after all..

#1053 pUs

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 16:18

China was a disaster for Michael. Still, I don't think the race gave a representative picture of his pace. He's not up to speed yet, but he's not that bad.

#1054 cheapracer

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 16:19

Well said Cheap Racer!



I did something right?

Holy shit, get a picture someone!

#1055 Trust

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 16:50

Kimi Raikkonen was performing really good at the beginning of the 2008 season but in the middle of the season all of a sudden Massa started to beat Raikkonen after a few updates were brought to the car. Which was not suiting Kimi's driving style. Does that mean Kimi lost all his talent midway that season and that to without retiring or taking a sabbatical? It's obviously no. The car was not suiting him and therefore he was not able to drive it to the optimum level.

In the same way Michael Schumacher does not like some of the characteristics of the car and therefore is not able to give his best shot! First let the car suit his style atleast!

A few updates that turned the car upside down. But no, wait, Schumi must lost his motivation already just like Kimi in 2008. :rotfl:

#1056 grunge

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 17:07

Kimi Raikkonen was performing really good at the beginning of the 2008 season but in the middle of the season all of a sudden Massa started to beat Raikkonen after a few updates were brought to the car. Which was not suiting Kimi's driving style. Does that mean Kimi lost all his talent midway that season and that to without retiring or taking a sabbatical? It's obviously no. The car was not suiting him and therefore he was not able to drive it to the optimum level.

In the same way Michael Schumacher does not like some of the characteristics of the car and therefore is not able to give his best shot! First let the car suit his style atleast!

the mid season suspension changes in 08 accounted for softer rear/front shock diff than before that further accounted raikkonen's understeer issues.his front tyre heating problems aggravated resultantly.he was so handicapped with it for the following weekends that he (source:AFCA) demanded at a team meeting that his suspension was reverted to the original version.

Schumacher has always preferred a neutral to oversteer setup.good front end grip,understandbly is essential for him.an understeery car will always have problems heating the fronts.u cant just expect him to jump in and start driving at his best



#1057 Messi10

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 17:10

oh please, please.. . .not the OS / US sermon again..;)

#1058 grunge

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 17:12

oh please, please.. . .not the OS / US sermon again..;)

:) its a reality.an amatuer karter who can fiddle around with the shocks/tire pressures will give u an explanation of how these things work

you cant have a meaningful comparison without considering these issues.

Edited by grunge, 21 April 2010 - 17:17.


#1059 Messi10

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 17:49

:) its a reality.an amatuer karter who can fiddle around with the shocks/tire pressures will give u an explanation of how these things work

you cant have a meaningful comparison without considering these issues.

we all know that .. but Kimi is not the only driver out there who has ever faced these issues..

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#1060 grunge

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 17:56

we all know that .. but Kimi is not the only driver out there who has ever faced these issues..

no theyre not,but u cant expect them to perform at their peak levels when the car hampers their respective styles.this is not a thread about raikkonen but he continued to show this real speed.his tyre heating meant he had qualifying issues was stuck behind slower cars.but whenever he had free air and the bridgestones started working after a no. of laps,he demonstrated his always superior race pace with the record equaling fastest laps.

Schumacher is coming back after a 3 year back straight into an understeery car.give him some time to adapt and the team to suit the car more to his liking.i just hope his issues are settled before belgium arrrives.i know he doesnt want to miss out on spa,the real drivers track.

#1061 Fortymark

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 18:13

I would also refer to people about Rosberg - in this case Senior.

When he went to McLaren he had a shit of a time all year but more because McLaren told him the car was perfect and he should change to suit - he didn't and Prost thrashed him.
McLaren finally relented for the last 2 races and gave him and his engineer a free hand - the results were stunning, Rosberg blew the entire field away leading by miles at the Oz GP until his puncture late in the race, a drive overshadowed by Mansell's famous tyre blowout and the 3 way fight for the WDC won by Prost.


This could have happened to other drivers as well, like Rubens as an exaple when he was
driving for Ferrari. Remember mid 2003 when the tires didn´t suit Michael but Rubens?
Rubens was clearly faster than Michael all of a sudden....

#1062 Messi10

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 18:17

. Remember mid 2003 when the tires didn´t suit Michael but Rubens?
Rubens was clearly faster than Michael all of a sudden....


Silverstone 2003 MS was nowhere and Rubens was slicing through the field followed by Montoya.


#1063 Yorkie

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 18:45

I would also refer to people about Rosberg - in this case Senior.

When he went to McLaren he had a shit of a time all year but more because McLaren told him the car was perfect and he should change to suit - he didn't and Prost thrashed him.
McLaren finally relented for the last 2 races and gave him and his engineer a free hand - the results were stunning, Rosberg blew the entire field away leading by miles at the Oz GP until his puncture late in the race, a drive overshadowed by Mansell's famous tyre blowout and the 3 way fight for the WDC won by Prost.

I think you made that up and in Australia in a fuel restricted era, Rosberg, who qualified behind Prost, had the turbo boost wound up to max and acted as the hare for Prost in the hope that Mansell and Piquet would follow in hot pursuit compromising their races, Rosberg was never going to see the chequered flag regardless

#1064 arknor

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 20:27

spa will be the tipping point for me if schumacher sucks at spa then imo hes lost it as spa was always a circuit he did well at

#1065 SeanValen

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 23:47

Silverstone 2003 MS was nowhere and Rubens was slicing through the field followed by Montoya.



Rubens on the soft tyre compound, Michael had a championship to defend, with Rubens at that point he could go for risks, you see in a tyre war there is no confirmed outlook for one tyre to do well, there were races where Michael was going conservative, with that points system, remember also as the championship leader, qualifying was designed to trip up the championship leader, qualifying 1 had Michael be the track sweeper, one lap qualifying, the most unfair qualifying system of all time that year designed to trip up MS and ferrari, for sure MS had to be calculating in parts, Rubens was nowhere until silverstone, and silverstone's performance doesn't let him off the hook from the races prior to it when MS was batteling the michelin runners on that france weekend where somehow he managed to get a podium, where was Rubens that weekend? That is Michael, and that is what Rubens is really about in the tough races. Look deeper at the races where ferrari and bridgestone lacked pace to michelin runners like monaco, france.


France weekend
2003

1 4 Ralf Schumacher Williams-BMW 70 1:30:49.213 1 10 the best cars/tyre package that weekend michelin
2 3 Juan Pablo Montoya Williams-BMW 70 +13.813 2 8
3 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 70 +19.568 3 6
4 6 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 70 +38.047 4 5
5 5 David Coulthard McLaren-Mercedes 70 +40.289 5 4
6 14 Mark Webber Jaguar-Cosworth 70 +1:06.380 9 3
7 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 69 +1 Lap 8 2 RUBENS, THE SILVERSTONE 2003 lets let him off the hook here, if he beat michael here, then yeah lets praise Ruby!!! :D
8 20 Olivier Panis Toyota 69 +1 Lap 10 1
9 16 Jacques Villeneuve BAR-Honda 69 +1 Lap 12
10 15 Antônio Pizzonia Jaguar-Cosworth 69 +1 Lap 11
11 21 Cristiano da Matta Toyota 69 +1 Lap 13
12 10 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Sauber-Petronas 68 +2 Laps 16
13 9 Nick Heidfeld Sauber-Petronas 68 +2 Laps 15


The French Grand Prix of 2003 was not one which will be remembered as a great battle of man and machine but it was a wake-up call for Bridgestone and Ferrari. The World Championship is up for grabs and right now you would not bet against Williams...






Edited by SeanValen, 22 April 2010 - 00:01.


#1066 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 23:54

spa will be the tipping point for me if schumacher sucks at spa then imo hes lost it as spa was always a circuit he did well at


what about Montreal? he won that race 7 times.


#1067 angst

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 00:10

Rubens on the soft tyre compound, Michael had a championship to defend, with Rubens at that point he could go for risks, you see in a tyre war there is no confirmed outlook for one tyre to do well, there were races where Michael was going conservative, with that points system, remember also as the championship leader, qualifying was designed to trip up the championship leader, qualifying 1 had Michael be the track sweeper, one lap qualifying, the most unfair qualifying system of all time that year designed to trip up MS and ferrari, for sure MS had to be calculating in parts, Rubens was nowhere until silverstone, and silverstone's performance doesn't let him off the hook from the races prior to it when MS was batteling the michelin runners on that france weekend where somehow he managed to get a podium, where was Rubens that weekend? That is Michael, and that is what Rubens is really about in the tough races. Look deeper at the races where ferrari and bridgestone lacked pace to michelin runners like monaco, france.


France weekend
2003

1 4 Ralf Schumacher Williams-BMW 70 1:30:49.213 1 10 the best cars/tyre package that weekend michelin
2 3 Juan Pablo Montoya Williams-BMW 70 +13.813 2 8
3 1 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 70 +19.568 3 6
4 6 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 70 +38.047 4 5
5 5 David Coulthard McLaren-Mercedes 70 +40.289 5 4
6 14 Mark Webber Jaguar-Cosworth 70 +1:06.380 9 3
7 2 Rubens Barrichello Ferrari 69 +1 Lap 8 2 RUBENS, THE SILVERSTONE 2003 lets let him off the hook here, if he beat michael here, then yeah lets praise Ruby!!! :D
8 20 Olivier Panis Toyota 69 +1 Lap 10 1
9 16 Jacques Villeneuve BAR-Honda 69 +1 Lap 12
10 15 Antônio Pizzonia Jaguar-Cosworth 69 +1 Lap 11
11 21 Cristiano da Matta Toyota 69 +1 Lap 13
12 10 Heinz-Harald Frentzen Sauber-Petronas 68 +2 Laps 16
13 9 Nick Heidfeld Sauber-Petronas 68 +2 Laps 15



See. The minute somebody mentions that, perhaps...somebody might have been able to go quicker than Schumacher - out come the knives. Not possible, he was crap everywhere else..... failing to mention that Rubens had an off early on and ended up well down the field - seventh being the result of a fight-back through the field.


#1068 Muz Bee

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 00:20

I did something right?
Holy shit, get a picture someone!

:kiss: You got me onside with that excellent and appropriate observation. Keke's drive that day was not just a retiring champion's swansong, it was a reminder that class is permanent. He taught his son well with regard to conduct even if their driving styles are poles apart. Michael may recapture some of his earlier greatness but probably only if he draws the team's efforts in his direction to the likely detriment of his teammate. The longer he takes to fire and the more the younger Rosberg flourishes the less likely he will be to recapture the glory days. Some people need to remember that driving isn't all talent and opportunity but incorporates a wide range of factors. :wave:


#1069 SeanValen

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 00:43

See. The minute somebody mentions that, perhaps...somebody might have been able to go quicker than Schumacher - out come the knives. Not possible, he was crap everywhere else..... failing to mention that Rubens had an off early on and ended up well down the field - seventh being the result of a fight-back through the field.


SEE
Point being france Schumacher and Kimi own, Schumacher's won it like 8 times, and Kimi was just awesome there even when he retired in 2008, massa admitted he couldn't do anything about it, it showes where the really special drivers stand out, Rubens can win a occassional gp that was good, but so what, it's a few gps in a army full of not so great gps, it's easy to pick out a gp where schumacher didn't perform, it's natural, no ones perfect, but if you look at Rubens, never impressed at Spa and Monaco consistently, were talking about life long career consistency, not a few odd gps, any one can pick out silverstone 2003 and make rubens look better then everyone else. Alot of drivers in the current field have had a good day, and alot have had more worser days consistently/


Edited by SeanValen, 22 April 2010 - 00:46.


#1070 Raelene

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 01:00

What irritates me is how all the Schumacher fans use to say "he could win in a Minardi". .......



what a bare faced lie...

#1071 armchair expert

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 01:09

Horner & Haug certainly are better than us! The arm-chair experts! Nor people would just go into any forum and choose an arm-chair expert and made them their team boss! :p


I could do the job, if I wanted to.

#1072 armchair expert

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 01:53

what a bare faced lie...


Too true, but doesn't stop people perpetuating myths. I think Frank Williams jokingly said Schumacher could win in a shopping trolley.

#1073 cheapracer

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 02:24

I think you made that up and in Australia in a fuel restricted era, Rosberg, who qualified behind Prost, had the turbo boost wound up to max and acted as the hare for Prost in the hope that Mansell and Piquet would follow in hot pursuit compromising their races, Rosberg was never going to see the chequered flag regardless


I made that UP??

:rotfl: :rotfl:

This is a new low in posting and unlike most drivers I haven't seen anybody before take a stand against Keke and unlike you I believe, I actually watched the entire '86 season. You simply don't know the whole story of that year nor do you know knobs about Keke.

Anyway, nothing to do with MS, just an example of sometimes drivers don't mesh instantly with a car sometimes. Also fair to say that some drivers instantly mesh with the car too and ironically Rosberg Junior is the most recent example of this, the Benz seems to suit him to a T, good for him.



#1074 Frans

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 08:22

The only driver in F1 who ever could have won a race in a Minardi, was Jos Verstappen!

And Schumacher is two steps less than him in the talent scale.

#1075 wati

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 08:32

Yeah, we saw that in 1994 already.

#1076 stillOrange

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:07

I was never fond of Michael and I couldn't believe when heard that a good team like MercedesGP will give him drivers seat. I still believe that that decision was based almost only on his publicity and marketing potential and its pity that Michael is taking away possibility of fresher younger driver making a breakthrough.

That was then, but now I hope he will radically improve. I really don't want his career to end on such low note.

I wish him all the best :up:
(Which really surprises me as 'I wasn't fond of him' is diplomatic way of saying I hate him :lol: )

#1077 Yorkie

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 09:34

I made that UP??

:rotfl: :rotfl:

This is a new low in posting and unlike most drivers I haven't seen anybody before take a stand against Keke and unlike you I believe, I actually watched the entire '86 season. You simply don't know the whole story of that year nor do you know knobs about Keke.

Anyway, nothing to do with MS, just an example of sometimes drivers don't mesh instantly with a car sometimes. Also fair to say that some drivers instantly mesh with the car too and ironically Rosberg Junior is the most recent example of this, the Benz seems to suit him to a T, good for him.

Its hard to recall from memory something that happened nearly 24 years ago, i know Keke struggled with the McLaren because it was designed with understeer and i also know that it was said at the time that Keke's pace in Australia was artificial, he had the turbo boost turned up and would have run out of fuel. He was merely assisting Prost against Piquet and Mansell trying to make them run faster than what was advisable.

As for the transformation in his performance in the last 2 races after he went his own way on set up, i had to google the results to find he was easily outqualified by Prost in the last 2 races, also only a few days ago a forumer posted what Prost had said about Rosberg trying to set the McLaren upto oversteer to suit his own driving style saying it was bit of a disaster

#1078 as65p

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 10:03

Its hard to recall from memory something that happened nearly 24 years ago, i know Keke struggled with the McLaren because it was designed with understeer and i also know that it was said at the time that Keke's pace in Australia was artificial, he had the turbo boost turned up and would have run out of fuel. He was merely assisting Prost against Piquet and Mansell trying to make them run faster than what was advisable.

As for the transformation in his performance in the last 2 races after he went his own way on set up, i had to google the results to find he was easily outqualified by Prost in the last 2 races, also only a few days ago a forumer posted what Prost had said about Rosberg trying to set the McLaren upto oversteer to suit his own driving style saying it was bit of a disaster


As much as I liked Keke on and off track, there's no getting around that he was simply exposed by Prost to be not in the same class. Before he had built a reputation as "F1's fastest driver", probably the most marketable artificial label around, loved by the press and the public likewise. That bubble simply burst when he encountered Prost, same with Piquet against Mansell later or more recently Räikönnen against Massa.

Somehow I sense at the end of this season we can probably add another pairing to that list...  ;)

#1079 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 10:37

First of all, I am not a big Schumacher fan. But there is something interesting about his struggles in the first 4 GPs. It is very similar to Kimis problems in 2008. They both like a very strong front end with minimal or no understeer. And people who laugh off the OS/US issue and dismiss its importance have no clue what they are talking about. When you race at such high levels and on the limit, its everything.

It would have been better if he had come back last year because then the front tires were wider. The fact that they have narrowed them for 2010 has only made the understeer issue worse for Schumacher. Basically, he couldnt have picked a worse time to get back into F1 again. And its going to be hard to work around that issue no matter what Mercedes do. Im sure they can limit the problems but I think Schumacher has to make big changes to his driving style to completely work around them.

I believe its a darn shame the way the rules and restrictions are on the cars now. It completely punishes drivers with a preference to oversteer. And in my personal opinion, those with that driving style have always been among the most spectacular to watch and it takes more skill as well. You need to have an incredible feel of the car and incredibly quick reflexes as the car is less forgiving compared to a car with a strong rear.
However, this also raises the question - is his reflexes and car feel not what they have been at 41? Does that play a part too? Maybe. But I am completely convinced that if he had a car without the current US problems then he would be right up to Nicos pace. All the critique he is getting is a bit unfair.

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#1080 angst

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 10:55

SEE
Point being france Schumacher and Kimi own, Schumacher's won it like 8 times, and Kimi was just awesome there even when he retired in 2008, massa admitted he couldn't do anything about it, it showes where the really special drivers stand out, Rubens can win a occassional gp that was good, but so what, it's a few gps in a army full of not so great gps, it's easy to pick out a gp where schumacher didn't perform, it's natural, no ones perfect, but if you look at Rubens, never impressed at Spa and Monaco consistently, were talking about life long career consistency, not a few odd gps, any one can pick out silverstone 2003 and make rubens look better then everyone else. Alot of drivers in the current field have had a good day, and alot have had more worser days consistently/


That wasn't what anyone was trying to do, though. It was simply to point out that, perhaps, the tyres hadn't suited Barrichello prior to this event and so that would have made his pace seem a little..... slower than he actually could be. It seems its ok to suggest that the car not suiting Schumacher is a reasonable argument, but that a car might not suit his teammate isn't. Exactly as I predicted. And, again, Barrichallo's result here compared to Schumacher's is meaningless - as his seventh was a result of a fight-back through the field.


#1081 Umpire

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:07

It was a self-induced fightback though...Rubens spun on the final corner, entirely on his own. From then on he had to fight from the back.

#1082 dde

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:15

That wasn't what anyone was trying to do, though. It was simply to point out that, perhaps, the tyres hadn't suited Barrichello prior to this event and so that would have made his pace seem a little..... slower than he actually could be. It seems its ok to suggest that the car not suiting Schumacher is a reasonable argument, but that a car might not suit his teammate isn't. Exactly as I predicted. And, again, Barrichallo's result here compared to Schumacher's is meaningless - as his seventh was a result of a fight-back through the field.


First, Silverstone and Germany 2003 are not about tyres suiting Barrichello and not Schumacher, it is about different specs, as explained before.

Second, the F2002, F2003 and F2004 suited Barrichello's driving style much more than they suited Schumacher's driving style, as mentionned by Ferrari test driver Marc Gene. And indeed, the gap between Schumacher and Barrichelo was less in those years than it was in 2000 or 2001 when the Ferrari tended to oversteer and be very unstable from the rear.

#1083 angst

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:27

First, Silverstone and Germany 2003 are not about tyres suiting Barrichello and not Schumacher, it is about different specs, as explained before.


Well, I was responding to (a response to) this; "Remember mid 2003 when the tires didn´t suit Michael but Rubens?
Rubens was clearly faster than Michael all of a sudden...."


Second, the F2002, F2003 and F2004 suited Barrichello's driving style much more than they suited Schumacher's driving style, as mentionned by Ferrari test driver Marc Gene. And indeed, the gap between Schumacher and Barrichelo was less in those years than it was in 2000 or 2001 when the Ferrari tended to oversteer and be very unstable from the rear.


Ok, right :rolleyes:

So, in other words the design moved a little closer to suiting Barrichello. Not the same as saying it suited Barrichello better. Do you really think that the team - being built around Schumacher (and after all, this is oft-referred to as one of his great skills) and developed around him, built a car that wasn't suited to him? Look at what Mercedes are talking about.... changing key design elements of the car to suit Schumacher.

#1084 Yorkie

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:40

First of all, I am not a big Schumacher fan. But there is something interesting about his struggles in the first 4 GPs. It is very similar to Kimis problems in 2008. They both like a very strong front end with minimal or no understeer. And people who laugh off the OS/US issue and dismiss its importance have no clue what they are talking about. When you race at such high levels and on the limit, its everything.

It would have been better if he had come back last year because then the front tires were wider. The fact that they have narrowed them for 2010 has only made the understeer issue worse for Schumacher. Basically, he couldnt have picked a worse time to get back into F1 again. And its going to be hard to work around that issue no matter what Mercedes do. Im sure they can limit the problems but I think Schumacher has to make big changes to his driving style to completely work around them.

I believe its a darn shame the way the rules and restrictions are on the cars now. It completely punishes drivers with a preference to oversteer. And in my personal opinion, those with that driving style have always been among the most spectacular to watch and it takes more skill as well. You need to have an incredible feel of the car and incredibly quick reflexes as the car is less forgiving compared to a car with a strong rear.
However, this also raises the question - is his reflexes and car feel not what they have been at 41? Does that play a part too? Maybe. But I am completely convinced that if he had a car without the current US problems then he would be right up to Nicos pace. All the critique he is getting is a bit unfair.

Is the McLaren an understeering car then because of the narrow front tyres?

Well, I was responding to (a response to) this; "Remember mid 2003 when the tires didn´t suit Michael but Rubens?
Rubens was clearly faster than Michael all of a sudden...."




Ok, right :rolleyes:

So, in other words the design moved a little closer to suiting Barrichello. Not the same as saying it suited Barrichello better. Do you really think that the team - being built around Schumacher (and after all, this is oft-referred to as one of his great skills) and developed around him, built a car that wasn't suited to him? Look at what Mercedes are talking about.... changing key design elements of the car to suit Schumacher.

You should also realise that the Bridgestone tyres were designed around MS

#1085 Szoelloe

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:42

Look at what Mercedes are talking about.... changing key design elements of the car to suit Schumacher.


Not exactly. They are using the same type of setup, they reportedly have the same preferences. NR has coped with the handicaps of the car better. But the chnges to the car will suit both of them, so no, you are not entirely right, but the planned upgrades to the car MAY sbring more performance for MS than NR, because of the lost 3 three years.

#1086 Massa_f1

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:53

The only driver in F1 who ever could have won a race in a Minardi, was Jos Verstappen!

And Schumacher is two steps less than him in the talent scale.



If you really think that and are not just joking i worry for you.

#1087 dde

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:12

Well, I was responding to (a response to) this; "Remember mid 2003 when the tires didn´t suit Michael but Rubens?
Rubens was clearly faster than Michael all of a sudden...."




Ok, right :rolleyes:

So, in other words the design moved a little closer to suiting Barrichello. Not the same as saying it suited Barrichello better. Do you really think that the team - being built around Schumacher (and after all, this is oft-referred to as one of his great skills) and developed around him, built a car that wasn't suited to him? Look at what Mercedes are talking about.... changing key design elements of the car to suit Schumacher.


Nop, the design was what it was, and its first purpose was to counter attack the massive superiority of max speed of the Williams in 2001. That is why the F2002 and next were so fast in straight, while the F2000 and the F2001 lacked of it. But what made that characteristic also made the handling of the car better suited to Barrichello's style, as Gene, who I guess knows what he is talking about a little bit better than you and me, said on that matter.

Edited by dde, 22 April 2010 - 12:12.


#1088 Trust

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:16

First of all, I am not a big Schumacher fan. But there is something interesting about his struggles in the first 4 GPs. It is very similar to Kimis problems in 2008. They both like a very strong front end with minimal or no understeer. And people who laugh off the OS/US issue and dismiss its importance have no clue what they are talking about. When you race at such high levels and on the limit, its everything.

It would have been better if he had come back last year because then the front tires were wider. The fact that they have narrowed them for 2010 has only made the understeer issue worse for Schumacher. Basically, he couldnt have picked a worse time to get back into F1 again. And its going to be hard to work around that issue no matter what Mercedes do. Im sure they can limit the problems but I think Schumacher has to make big changes to his driving style to completely work around them.

I believe its a darn shame the way the rules and restrictions are on the cars now. It completely punishes drivers with a preference to oversteer. And in my personal opinion, those with that driving style have always been among the most spectacular to watch and it takes more skill as well. You need to have an incredible feel of the car and incredibly quick reflexes as the car is less forgiving compared to a car with a strong rear.
However, this also raises the question - is his reflexes and car feel not what they have been at 41? Does that play a part too? Maybe. But I am completely convinced that if he had a car without the current US problems then he would be right up to Nicos pace. All the critique he is getting is a bit unfair.

Kimi's problem was warming those front tyres, and those hurted him in qualifying inducing understeer. That's why in race he was superior but by then he already have lost the race due to being held by slower cars. But I think Schumi has big balance issues, which are hurting him. Of course his hope is Barcelona upgrades to cut that understeer.

#1089 grunge

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 13:23

Kimi's problem was warming those front tyres, and those hurted him in qualifying inducing understeer. That's why in race he was superior but by then he already have lost the race due to being held by slower cars. But I think Schumi has big balance issues, which are hurting him. Of course his hope is Barcelona upgrades to cut that understeer.

Yup primarily speaking the brigdestones were his achilles heels...but the tyres and the car are a package.the ferrari was ultra soft on tyres,in part due to its understeery nature..the OS liking driver needs ample front heat to have the confidence to try liftoversteer or lfbraking to induce OS in an inherently US car (the ferraris 07,08).he has no where to go when he doesnt have enough front tyre heat.thats the problem kimi had.

Brawn mentioned they had problems with both car development(underestimated the impact of the narrower fronts) and weight distribution.drivers like schumacher,raikkonen induce rear slides thru both fast and slow corners due to heir oversteery entry.but these slides are ''controlled'' slides..what happened with schumacher was the weight distribution was put more too much to the front to help him warm up his fronts.this resulted in too little grip at the rear,too much sliding around,high rear tyre wear and no grip.

Edited by grunge, 22 April 2010 - 13:24.


#1090 angst

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 13:25

Nop, the design was what it was, and its first purpose was to counter attack the massive superiority of max speed of the Williams in 2001. That is why the F2002 and next were so fast in straight, while the F2000 and the F2001 lacked of it. But what made that characteristic also made the handling of the car better suited to Barrichello's style, as Gene, who I guess knows what he is talking about a little bit better than you and me, said on that matter.


Hmmm..., but what I'm saying is, what is Gené actually saying here? Isn't he, in effect, saying that the previous Ferraris didn't particularly suit Barrichello's style and that the F2002 more suited it? I don't think he's suggesting that it didn't suit Schumacher's style. In other words, its a relative statement. And, again, this goes back to the main point of discussion here; that, as I predicted, while (a certain section of)Schumacher fans are ready to grasp this 'car doesn't suit him' argument when he is slower than Rosberg, the obvious implication that the reverse might also have been true can, in no way, be accepted.


#1091 cheapracer

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 13:25

Look at what Mercedes are talking about.... changing key design elements of the car to suit Schumacher.


In all seriousness put your thinking cap on - understand the publicity difference between Rosberg winning a
GP and MS winning one...

Which will Mercedes Benz benefit more from on the BIG scale of things...

#1092 angst

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 13:26

In all seriousness put your thinking cap on - understand the publicity difference between Rosberg winning a
GP and MS winning one...

Which will Mercedes Benz benefit more from on the BIG scale of things...


Which refutes my point.., how?


#1093 grunge

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 14:08

Is the McLaren an understeering car then because of the narrow front tyres?

no.thats because they corrrectly estimated the impact the narrower fronts would have and compensated for it in their wing,suspension development.Brawn himself admitted they undercompensated and produced an understeery car.same with renault.the car at the last testing session was understeering like a boat.theyve lessened that effect considerably now.

#1094 grunge

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 14:25

or more recently Räikönnen against Massa.


maybe acc to your personal uneducated views,affected by a definite agenda but thats certainly not the case with the people ''in the know''...people running racing teams,having access a lot more data..like whitmarsh who commented last year that ''kimi is probably the greatest talent ever'' of haug who said hed be a 3 time champion now if their engines hadnt blown up so much in 03,05.or redbull that were reportedly in negotiations with him last year.

or mercedes that offered him a contract even when he had publicly taken a sabbatical.so all of the 3 top teams offered him seats after he was fired...talk about bursting a bubble.

Somehow I sense at the end of this season we can probably add another pairing to that list... ;)

ahem..how can u possibly ''reveal'' a 7 time champion?..or burst his bubble?..do u mean to say if he doesnt match/beat rosberg this season,his 7 championships become a fluke?.

#1095 as65p

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 15:40

maybe acc to your personal uneducated views,affected by a definite agenda but thats certainly not the case with the people ''in the know''...people running racing teams,having access a lot more data..like whitmarsh who commented last year that ''kimi is probably the greatest talent ever'' of haug who said hed be a 3 time champion now if their engines hadnt blown up so much in 03,05.or redbull that were reportedly in negotiations with him last year.

or mercedes that offered him a contract even when he had publicly taken a sabbatical.so all of the 3 top teams offered him seats after he was fired...talk about bursting a bubble.


Yeah, yeah. Räikönnen is (was) my second favourite driver and when he joined Ferrari I expected him to be in front of Massa 8 out of 10 times. Hasn't happened, simple as that.

ahem..how can u possibly ''reveal'' a 7 time champion?..or burst his bubble?..do u mean to say if he doesnt match/beat rosberg this season,his 7 championships become a fluke?.


You have two tries left. MS/NR wasn't the pairing I had in mind. That one looks rather simplistic to me, I believe it's mainly down to MS' sabbatical and especially his age. As much as I always disliked him, I wouldn't draw any conclusions about his earlier career from what happens now.


#1096 grunge

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 15:54

You have two tries left. MS/NR wasn't the pairing I had in mind.

firstly spare me the smartass one liners...and secondly your posting on a thread named MS, u have a definite anti MS reputation,u comment about someone's image being tarnished..how can one possibly assume you were referring to anyone other than MS.

#1097 as65p

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 16:00

firstly spare me the smartass one liners...and secondly your posting on a thread named MS, u have a definite anti MS reputation,u comment about someone's image being tarnished..how can one possibly assume you were referring to anyone other than MS.


By being more sharp and less prejudiced?

Oh sh... that was a one-liner. Fixed.

#1098 kar

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 18:14

A couple of positive articles, from I would ay _very_ unlikely sources praising Michael's defensive driving on Sunday.

Darren Heath (of how's the neck infamy) http://www.darrenhea...mpressive-stuff

And Stuart Codling of (Michael's return is awful for the sport fame) http://www.stuartcod...ael-schumacher/

#1099 Sakae

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 20:54

A couple of positive articles, from I would ay _very_ unlikely sources praising Michael's defensive driving on Sunday.

Darren Heath (of how's the neck infamy) http://www.darrenhea...mpressive-stuff

And Stuart Codling of (Michael's return is awful for the sport fame) http://www.stuartcod...ael-schumacher/



One wonders then what was the other article (I can't remember source), which refers to an interview with JB and LH, in which both drivers were asked if it was difficult to overtake MS, and in response they just smiled... Sounded to me as a snub. (Wasn't it during the post race interview)?

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#1100 kar

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 21:53

Considering what a missile their car is in a straight line, doesn't matter how much amusement they had at the question, Lewis certainly was made to work hard to overtake a much slower car.