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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#11001 ivand911

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 18:31

Crap car or not, beating your teammate should be motivation enough. If it's not and your just going through the motions you shouldn't be in the car at all.

Yes, if you are talking about Buemi or Jaime or Koba or Sutil or Nico or, you get the picture? Some seven time WDC are off the limits.


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#11002 Clatter

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 18:35

Yes, if you are talking about Buemi or Jaime or Koba or Sutil or Nico or, you get the picture? Some seven time WDC are off the limits.


Personally I think thats nonsense. He cannot and nor should his fans use his past results as an excuse for not giving it all now. IMHO he is giving all he can, it's just that it's not enough.

#11003 Kubiccia

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 18:40

What to expect from 4th best car? Not much. Only if you are lucky. This is what happen with the guys who have 4th best car.

I am saying comparatively to Nico, who's not a special driver.

We have seen from both Merc drivers that, in qualifying at least, they're getting the most out of their cars. The car cannot be any faster and in reality there is very little to seperate the two.

you don't know that, nobody does.


In fact, one can know. In last qualifying, it was clear that there was more to come from the car. Nico made seemed to have extracted all he could from the car but Schumi's Q3 time was merely a tenth faster than his FP2 time. The track rubbering and car qualifying mode would alone give much more than a tenth. Not to mention the fact that we don't even know if he was on 3 laps fuel in the FP2 lap.

It's not a guess, Mercedes had potential for quite a lot more than Nico's time, Schumi's FP2 driving would put him much ahead of Nico in a qualifying condition.

#11004 Sakae

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 19:18

Crap car or not, beating your teammate should be motivation enough. If it's not and your just going through the motions you shouldn't be in the car at all.

I am not a mind-reader, but I would not be too suprised to learn, that Michael is racing against his own expectations, and could not give a second thought where Rosberg is. Nico is not his benchmark, and if you think he is, than you do not know probably much about Schumacher.


Another topic / other posters - I also think that to make a claim (as some seems to be suggesting) that he is not extracting all out of the car is rather a statement with big words, and potentially of very little substance. Margin between drivers is small, tire grip variability can overlap that, and only what we see is Michael not totally being comfortable with tires or with the car. For some reason Nico is happier with it and good for him, but things are too volatile to write Schumacher completely off.

I do agree with Ross, that Michael did not forget how to drive, he did not loose on race craft or the speed; the vehicle is simply like a shoe that doesn't fits him well. I think that Webber is experiencing similar thing in RBR. If the car gets stable, instead sliding in turns, and it shall go where you aim, that will be a day when we see him also back in full charge.

Edited by Sakae, 06 July 2011 - 19:22.


#11005 baddog

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 21:26

In an interesting comment in Canada (Which I cannot now find :( ), Michael gave some insight into a change in his thinking and approach to practice sessions and earlier qualifying sessions, and a change in those. Basically it read as he is going to be more aggressive rather than approaching them as a purely technical prep, in order to avoid being in a position where he seems to others, and maybe feels, behind the ball when the real stuff starts. i.e. he was losing a psychological edge by not worrying about ego and position before it should technically matter.

That ties in with what happened in both Canada and Valencia in the pre-race.. for once he seemed ahead not behind on 'whole weekend' pace.

This may however be bullshit, we shall see in coming weeks heh

#11006 as65p

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 21:50

I am not a mind-reader, but I would not be too suprised to learn, that Michael is racing against his own expectations, and could not give a second thought where Rosberg is. Nico is not his benchmark, and if you think he is, than you do not know probably much about Schumacher.


That's strange, I think the direct opposite. Anyone who believes MS doesn't care about being beaten by his teammate can't know that much about the man.

#11007 Clatter

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 22:00

I am not a mind-reader, but I would not be too suprised to learn, that Michael is racing against his own expectations, and could not give a second thought where Rosberg is. Nico is not his benchmark, and if you think he is, than you do not know probably much about Schumacher.


Another topic / other posters - I also think that to make a claim (as some seems to be suggesting) that he is not extracting all out of the car is rather a statement with big words, and potentially of very little substance. Margin between drivers is small, tire grip variability can overlap that, and only what we see is Michael not totally being comfortable with tires or with the car. For some reason Nico is happier with it and good for him, but things are too volatile to write Schumacher completely off.

I do agree with Ross, that Michael did not forget how to drive, he did not loose on race craft or the speed; the vehicle is simply like a shoe that doesn't fits him well. I think that Webber is experiencing similar thing in RBR. If the car gets stable, instead sliding in turns, and it shall go where you aim, that will be a day when we see him also back in full charge.


I disagree. Your teammate is very much your benchmark. If your slow in comparison then questions will be asked because it means your not getting the best from the car.

#11008 Sakae

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 02:10

I am not convinced that MS needs NR for him to know whether his car and his own technique is best as it can under any conditions. On the contrary, I think he is using his own experience and instinct to identify causes for his less than perfect lap times, or race performance, because he knows after many years in competitive racing which elements are slowing him down on the track. Once he realizes that his own senses let him down, and he cannot read the situation, then he will probably quit, because age caught up with him, but I think he is not at that point yet.

If my theory is wrong, than as soon as he will clock faster lap times than Nico, than he would lean back, relaxed, yet we all know it's not true. He will never relax, even if he leads RBR by several seconds on the first lap, because that's the true Schumacher for you.

Nico Rosberg is not good enough benchmark for him, inconsequential bystander to his effort, because NR's performance is not why he came back out of retirement, and as long there are another eight people ahead of him, only P1 is his benchmark, and free air in the front of him when lights go off; that's what drives him, and not where on the track is his garage co-habitant.

(Anyway, IMHO).

Edited by Sakae, 07 July 2011 - 02:14.


#11009 Muz Bee

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 05:20

So much rubbish gets written in Michael's defence here, it's like getting objectivity from the Spanish fans on Alonso or Jorge Lorenzo.

Clearly Michael found something to his liking in the car, the conditions at Canada and he drove well, very well in fact. No longer being a fan of his doesn't mean I can't acknowledge what is clearly true but his fans drone on about how being beaten by Nico is somehow irrelevant and that the car and the tactics and the.... dadedadeda. Really embarassing, same old s#^*&!

Michael's fortunes may be on a genuine upswing or it could be normal transmission at Silverstone, we'll have to wait and see. Time stands still for no man, it's nothing like "he suddenly forgot how to be quick" that we are arguing (in his defence what's more!).

#11010 BRK

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 06:41

So much rubbish gets written in Michael's defence here, it's like getting objectivity from the Spanish fans on Alonso or Jorge Lorenzo.


Or from your average Schumacher bashing hater, people that go to ridiculous lengths to play down his achievements and post rubbish.

#11011 ivand911

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:00

Schumacher Ranch Switzerland 02/07/11
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Edited by ivand911, 07 July 2011 - 13:29.


#11012 Chezrome

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:36

Frankly I think MS was already losing some speed back in 2005 or 2006; another 5 years has seen him lose a bit more. I'd be amazed if he's not at least ½ second slower than 10 years ago, and probably nearer a second off his 1993-2002 peak decade.

That spell in Canada was wonderful, just like old times, but as you say I think it won't happen too often.


A second slower than 10 years ago? That means that the 'normal' old Schumacher would beat Rosberg with more than a second every qualifying?

I don't believe it. You?







#11013 swiniodzik

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:53

It's funny how the roles have reversed with the Schumacher fans and detractors since the first stint of his career. Back in the Benetton and Ferrari days the fans were very vocal about how important the driver is in the overall scheme of things, with the detractors trying to point out how important the car and other external circumstances are. Now in the Mercedes era the car and circumstances have suddenly become very important for the fans while the human factor has icreased greatly for the detractors.

I think the truth about Michael, as it often does, probably lies somewhere in the middle. He probably never was a driver as great as his first stint stats suggest and many of his fans would like us to believe he was, but neither was his success inflated by things other than the man's own talent and abilities to such a degree we're being said it was by some of the detractors.

#11014 Sakae

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 11:03

We do not have a situation yet on the track that car will win on its own, or inversely, driver will win on his own in normal conditions on the track. I do question the notion some had expressed in here that in equal cars a driver that is ahead of his teammate is the one who committed less amount of mistakes. Equipment is never he same, regardless of name and color, and on the track where 0.001 sec can make difference, machinery inequality between cars can play a decisive role. Schumacher's frame of mind,competitiveness, and focus on the target has been legendary over the years, and I do not think that has changed three years after he returned. Mature fans can (or should?) understand that. Focus is to win, not just to beat the junior teammate.

Edited by Sakae, 07 July 2011 - 11:05.


#11015 SparkPlug

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 11:13

That's strange, I think the direct opposite. Anyone who believes MS doesn't care about being beaten by his teammate can't know that much about the man.

+1.

Making that statement (that Schumacher is not bothered with where Nico is in comparison) is simply trying to downplay the fact that Rosberg has simply been better than Schumacher in the past 2 seasons. Anyone with even a sole championship, forget 7 will have a very close watch on his teammate, because its a matter of pride more than anything else. Its simply wrong to state that Schumacher doesnt care about beating Rosberg. He quite simply has to (care).



#11016 Tardis40

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 11:15

Schumacher Ranch Switzerland 02/07/11
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Hey, that horse is the wrong color !!!

#11017 george1981

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 11:42

I always thought that Schumacher was sometimes .1s-.2s slower than the fastest driver in the field over 1 lap in a car straight out of the box. Someone like Hakkinen or Montoya could always edge him. But what Schumacher may have lacked in absolute speed he made up for with car development and set up together with consistancy in the races.

#11018 differential

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 13:35

I always thought that Schumacher was sometimes .1s-.2s slower than the fastest driver in the field over 1 lap in a car straight out of the box. Someone like Hakkinen or Montoya could always edge him. But what Schumacher may have lacked in absolute speed he made up for with car development and set up together with consistancy in the races.

I don't agree with the Hakkinen comparison: there are countless amount of times where schumacher in an inferior car was faster than the superior mclaren of Hakk.

#11019 Sakae

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 15:47

+1.

Making that statement (that Schumacher is not bothered with where Nico is in comparison) is simply trying to downplay the fact that Rosberg has simply been better than Schumacher in the past 2 seasons. Anyone with even a sole championship, forget 7 will have a very close watch on his teammate, because its a matter of pride more than anything else. Its simply wrong to state that Schumacher doesnt care about beating Rosberg. He quite simply has to (care).

One opinion against other, but your view is not even close to the image I have of a man that I watch from the distance since 1991.

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#11020 Clatter

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 17:55

I am not convinced that MS needs NR for him to know whether his car and his own technique is best as it can under any conditions. On the contrary, I think he is using his own experience and instinct to identify causes for his less than perfect lap times, or race performance, because he knows after many years in competitive racing which elements are slowing him down on the track. Once he realizes that his own senses let him down, and he cannot read the situation, then he will probably quit, because age caught up with him, but I think he is not at that point yet.

If my theory is wrong, than as soon as he will clock faster lap times than Nico, than he would lean back, relaxed, yet we all know it's not true. He will never relax, even if he leads RBR by several seconds on the first lap, because that's the true Schumacher for you.

Nico Rosberg is not good enough benchmark for him, inconsequential bystander to his effort, because NR's performance is not why he came back out of retirement, and as long there are another eight people ahead of him, only P1 is his benchmark, and free air in the front of him when lights go off; that's what drives him, and not where on the track is his garage co-habitant.

(Anyway, IMHO).


P1 is the target, but not the benchmark because they are not using the same machinery. You can only sensible benchmark someone who is using the same kit as you are.

#11021 Juan Kerr

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 18:12

I seems to me that Schumacher is getting a little stronger every race. Which isn't strange after a long sabatical he's had. He has worked himself up to an equal level as Rosberg, which he wasn't last year. I feel there is still more to come from Schumacher, but the car has got to improve a lot.

Its just car setup and equipment, its got nothing to do with the drivers pace.

#11022 Sakae

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 18:18

Performance benchmark is whatever you select as best practice. I do not wish to play semantics, but within F1 racing (industry), currently best is duo Vettel/RBR, and therefore suitable choice how Schumacher evaluates his position. (I guess). He could select NR, but I doubt that, honestly.

#11023 DutchCruijff

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 18:42

"I always had the option to stop at any time I wanted. But I aim for an achievement and a fixed time. I have always said it's a three-year programme and that's what it is."

I hope that doesn't mean he won't take up the 2013 offer.

#11024 glorius&victorius

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 19:02

Time for a change of helmet scheme!

there is too much "Ferrari" on his current helmet... he needs to go back to his original scheme when he came into F1.
That will bring his mojo back!

Edited by glorius&victorius, 07 July 2011 - 19:03.


#11025 differential

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 19:29

"I always had the option to stop at any time I wanted. But I aim for an achievement and a fixed time. I have always said it's a three-year programme and that's what it is."

I hope that doesn't mean he won't take up the 2013 offer.


"But I aim for an achievement.." pretty sure that means he'll be back next year.

#11026 Tardis40

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 19:43

Schumacher Ranch Switzerland 02/07/11
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Where's your six-shooter, Mike.


#11027 Boing 2

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 20:03

Performance benchmark is whatever you select as best practice. I do not wish to play semantics, but within F1 racing (industry), currently best is duo Vettel/RBR, and therefore suitable choice how Schumacher evaluates his position. (I guess). He could select NR, but I doubt that, honestly.


your first target is to get 100% from the car, the second target is to get the car up to race winning speed. If you are going consistently slower than your team mate you are failing at the first target.

#11028 Number62

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 20:39

Performance benchmark is whatever you select as best practice. I do not wish to play semantics, but within F1 racing (industry), currently best is duo Vettel/RBR, and therefore suitable choice how Schumacher evaluates his position. (I guess). He could select NR, but I doubt that, honestly.


In that case he's currently the tenth best racing driver in formula one.

#11029 Sakae

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 22:06

By definition, in the industry you select for benchmarking leaders in your given field, not people who have the same resources like numbers of employees, budget, staplers, etc. I think Michael knows what he is doing.

Edited by Sakae, 07 July 2011 - 22:07.


#11030 Kubiccia

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 23:20

I always thought that Schumacher was sometimes .1s-.2s slower than the fastest driver in the field over 1 lap in a car straight out of the box. Someone like Hakkinen or Montoya could always edge him. But what Schumacher may have lacked in absolute speed he made up for with car development and set up together with consistancy in the races.

I don't agree with the Hakkinen comparison: there are countless amount of times where schumacher in an inferior car was faster than the superior mclaren of Hakk.


MOntoya was oftenly slower than Ralf and Kimi(the one slower than Massa). George's post is ridicolous. Schumi could beat Senna many times in qualifying despite having inferior car.
The raw pace of the guy was amazing, maybe you follow F1 for a shorter time and the Michelin qualy tires made you think Schumi was not that fast in qualifying.

#11031 Sakae

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 10:54

Silverstone, FP1 - Michael on his return never been in P2. He must be scratching his head. (Guys probably saving tires again).

#11032 Frans

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 11:00

call it .... G-L-O-R-Y r-u-n ..... because that's what it was. no fuel, new tires ... pfffft. I hope he is happy with his P2. Jos Verstappen became P1 in an Minardi once, so come ON schu, can you do?

Edited by Frans, 08 July 2011 - 11:01.


#11033 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 11:14

no fuel? wow :)

btw, how's Jos? :))

#11034 arknor

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 11:16

call it .... G-L-O-R-Y r-u-n ..... because that's what it was. no fuel, new tires ... pfffft. I hope he is happy with his P2. Jos Verstappen became P1 in an Minardi once, so come ON schu, can you do?

i heard jos the boss once won a formula one race and then he woke up on his bed :wave:

btw the jos thread is here http://forums.autosp...showtopic=26370 quietly waiting for you

Edited by arknor, 08 July 2011 - 11:27.


#11035 FlashMaster

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 11:41

call it .... G-L-O-R-Y r-u-n ..... because that's what it was. no fuel, new tires ... pfffft. I hope he is happy with his P2. Jos Verstappen became P1 in an Minardi once, so come ON schu, can you do?


Is Jos the toss still standing in the gravel pit or did he do a Vercrasheren today? Poor guy

#11036 BRK

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 11:51

call it .... G-L-O-R-Y r-u-n ..... because that's what it was. no fuel, new tires ... pfffft. I hope he is happy with his P2. Jos Verstappen became P1 in an Minardi once, so come ON schu, can you do?


Wrong again. Though you seem to be more concerned with Friday running that most of the rest of us in here.

BTW, life has an odd way of letting you know when you're badly wrong: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=150621

 ;)



#11037 FlashMaster

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 12:21

Wrong again. Though you seem to be more concerned with Friday running that most of the rest of us in here.

BTW, life has an odd way of letting you know when you're badly wrong: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=150621

;)


Karma :cool:

#11038 Augurk

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 14:17

Too bad Michael didn't try the inters. He was good on the wets though!

#11039 EdwardCullen

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 14:32

He was on par with the superior Redbulls on wets :up:
good form

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#11040 spacekid

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 14:46

Michael looks decent enough in wet conditions this year, pre season testing included, and I think is faster than Rosberg in the wet.

Which gives me a question - why is Schumi faster in the wet, but Rosberg faster in the dry? It must be a characteristic of the 2011 cars that favours one driving style in the wet and another in the dry. Can Michael learn from this how to improve his dry weather pace?

#11041 George Costanza

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 14:56

Michael looks decent enough in wet conditions this year, pre season testing included, and I think is faster than Rosberg in the wet.

Which gives me a question - why is Schumi faster in the wet, but Rosberg faster in the dry? It must be a characteristic of the 2011 cars that favours one driving style in the wet and another in the dry. Can Michael learn from this how to improve his dry weather pace?


It's rather easy because Michael Schumacher is likely the greatest rain driver of all time, except for possibly Ayrton Senna, and he can adapt to the wet conditions well.

#11042 EdwardCullen

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 14:59

Michael looks decent enough in wet conditions this year, pre season testing included, and I think is faster than Rosberg in the wet.

Which gives me a question - why is Schumi faster in the wet, but Rosberg faster in the dry? It must be a characteristic of the 2011 cars that favours one driving style in the wet and another in the dry. Can Michael learn from this how to improve his dry weather pace?

Schumy has always been good in wet weather, and conditions where there is always uncertainty
Thats not coz the car favors a driving style in wet.

In wet the ability to feel the road and play with throttle and driver input matters alot

In short in modern era
In Wet condition driver 70% car 30%

In dry condition Driver 30% car 70%

#11043 spacekid

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 15:06

Hmmm. Thanks guys but I think there's more to it. Whether wet or dry the driver has an input, if driver input is more in the wet and Michael shows a clear advantage over Nico there, then why not in the dry? If Michaels not as fast as he used to be then that should be exagerated in the wet, but thats not what we're seeing.

Maybe Nico just isn't much cop in the wet. Because he has tended to have the edge on pace in dry weather conditions.

#11044 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 15:12

Michael has recently looked as fast in dry also...
remember the qualy gaps are getting close to 0 and the trend is clear

#11045 EdwardCullen

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 18:18

Hmmm. Thanks guys but I think there's more to it. Whether wet or dry the driver has an input, if driver input is more in the wet and Michael shows a clear advantage over Nico there, then why not in the dry? If Michaels not as fast as he used to be then that should be exagerated in the wet, but thats not what we're seeing.

Maybe Nico just isn't much cop in the wet. Because he has tended to have the edge on pace in dry weather conditions.

maybe you should search on internet about the difference of driving in wet and dry and the impact of too much electronics in modern f1

#11046 spacekid

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 18:38

maybe you should search on internet about the difference of driving in wet and dry and the impact of too much electronics in modern f1


I hope it wasn't meant to be, but your reply comes across as a little rude Edward. I've been watching F1 for many decades and Schumi watching his whole career. I know how wet and dry driving works. I know about modern F1, and older F1 too. Its interesting that F1 arguably technically peaked in 1992 in terms of too many electronics, but never mind.

Ok here's what I was getting at, and its about traction. Martin Brundle was recently talking about driving the 2011 cars and he noted that they have the least traction coming out of the corners of F1 cars that he has driven. Schumis driving style always used to be about being able to carry maximum speed through the whole corner, holding the line with the throttle and then driving away. In his interview Ross Brawn said that Nico and Michael have similar apex speeds, but that Nico is making up the hundreths of a second elsewhere in the corner and it all adds up to a couple of tenths a second. So that got me thinking. Perhaps Michaels driving style isn't working quite so well with these cars because the engines power band isn't where he needs it to be to make his driving style work? And rainy conditions place the car back into an operational zone that allows him to extract a greater % of performance.

It was a half formed idea I admit, just something I have been mulling over. I hoped some of you guys might have had similar thoughts about why Michael is a shade off Nico in the dry but able to do better in the wet. If its all just modern cars and driving aids that doesn't really explain Nicos pace advantage. Maybe I should just go 'check on the internet'. But y'know, this being a Schumi thread on an F1 site it seemed like the place to start.

#11047 Disgrace

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 19:45

Don't know about you guys, but aside from the Saubers, Schumacher seemed to be in the least amount of control of anyone out there. Great to watch, nonetheless.

Edited by Disgrace, 08 July 2011 - 19:45.


#11048 iakhtar

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 19:54

Whenever I see him driving like that I just figure he's exploring the limits, esp in the wet, usually pays off for him too.

#11049 spacekid

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 19:59

Don't know about you guys, but aside from the Saubers, Schumacher seemed to be in the least amount of control of anyone out there. Great to watch, nonetheless.


Its hard to tell. I know what you mean, Schumi had a few twitches on track, but in the FP2 coverage I saw everyone had moments. It could be that the coverage and cameramen focused om the cars that were sliding. I didn't really see any extended footage of Schumi. The times were good, but obviously meaningless, I have no idea who was pushing or just collecting data, but Schumi has been pretty good on the wet Pirellis.

#11050 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 20:45

I hope it will be a wet/semi-wet race on Sunday. I'm working (bah humbug!) and usually when it's raining I get very little customers through the door; this means I'll be able to watch the race in its entirety :D