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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#11201 VresiBerba

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 14:42

Please don't comment on a race you didnt watch.

So you refuse to back-up your statements on the belief that you think I didn't watch the race? Then don't make those statements.

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#11202 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 14:42

As for the British GP.

Nico did a great job on Saturday and a very very solid job Sunday reading the conditions and making a 2-stop race work and getting into 6th.
Michael did a very poor job on Saturday, made a mistake and worked the fresh tires as much as possible to a 9th..
MGP002 still not good enough and still too slow but with the wet track on Saturday and Sunday can't really tell if they made any progress..

Nothing more.. nothing less.

Edited by Paco, 10 July 2011 - 14:43.


#11203 Urawa

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 14:47

But another way to look at it... he did what he needed to get 6th... only 2 stopped so he ended up running on older tires for much longer thereby slowing his pace a bit as he had to look after them to make them work that long. Nico "may" have been able to get to 5th.. a bit of stretch ..

Michael on the other hand had fresh rubber more often and had to push much more just to get to 9th.


I think you´re mixing something here. Both were on 2-stop strategy and the same rythm (MS pitted 2-3 laps earlier at the first stop an 1-2 later on the 2nd)
And they even had the same amout of new soft tyres as Rosberg did his Q3 lap with used tyres yesterday.

#11204 BRK

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 14:51

Yep!

Which one?


What's blue, starts with a V, and doesn't watch races? :eek:

#11205 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 14:53

Michael on the other hand had fresh rubber more often and had to push much more just to get to 9th.

what? why did michael have fresh rubber more often?

#11206 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 14:59

I don't have the lap by lap tracking of when ms stopped vs. nico and took on rubber etc. Either way, it's a null point, at the end of the day Nico is qualifying and scoring better still 1.5 years on and Merc is still not a top 3 car as this entire weekend demonstrated.

Hopefully, MS can turns things around with the few races remaining this season.

#11207 EdwardCullen

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:08

Well, have fun! :cat:

yeah, on your face!
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#11208 topical

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:09

If he wasn't in his 40s MS would certainly be this year's Crash Kid award winner.
Good come back drive though,

#11209 Anssi

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:20

Oh my doG, official results! On my face! :rotfl:

#11210 VresiBerba

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:20

What's blue, starts with a V, and doesn't watch races? :eek:

So I'm a "troll" then, for saying that Shumi was due this penalty, and humbly asking what Lewis did that was "identical incident in the same race"? So can you then point me towards what Lewis did during this race that was identical to what Shumi did, because no-one else has been able, since I honestly missed that one.

#11211 spacekid

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:24

So I'm a "troll" then, for saying that Shumi was due this penalty, and humbly asking what Lewis did that was "identical incident in the same race"? So can you then point me towards what Lewis did during this race that was identical to what Shumi did, because no-one else has been able, since I honestly missed that one.


You are right. Schumi lost the rear of the car going into a corner in wet conditions. He wasn't trying to make a pass, he just made a mistake.

Lewis locked up going in to a turn to prevent an overtake, and pushed the overtaking car wide and was able to retain position.

So you're right, they were different.

The majority of your posts are a blatant wind up though.

#11212 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:25

But another way to look at it... he did what he needed to get 6th... only 2 stopped so he ended up running on older tires for much longer thereby slowing his pace a bit as he had to look after them to make them work that long. Nico "may" have been able to get to 5th.. a bit of stretch ..

Michael on the other hand had fresh rubber more often and had to push much more just to get to 9th.


How? They did the same amount of pit stops for tyres.

#11213 RedBaron

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:27

Penalty was a joke, Mansell's explanation doesn't sit well either. If Schumacher had bumped the Sauber off and continued without damage he should have received an penalty... but he lost his front wing and had to do a lap without it and non-racing speeds... that should have been his penalty. He made an mistake, he paid for it with a lost front wing and the resulting pit stop.

#11214 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:27

You are right. Schumi lost the rear of the car going into a corner in wet conditions. He wasn't trying to make a pass, he just made a mistake.

Lewis locked up going in to a turn to prevent an overtake, and pushed the overtaking car wide and was able to retain position.

So you're right, they were different.

The majority of your posts are a blatant wind up though.


of course its pretty obvious why hes here.


#11215 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:29

I don't have the lap by lap tracking of when ms stopped vs. nico and took on rubber etc. Either way, it's a null point, at the end of the day Nico is qualifying and scoring better still 1.5 years on and Merc is still not a top 3 car as this entire weekend demonstrated.

Hopefully, MS can turns things around with the few races remaining this season.


And at the end of the day, MS has better race pace and just needs to improve quali to show his true ability that he already has.

#11216 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:30

What lap did Michael serve his penality on???

Either way, based on that tear strip lap summary, look more like Nico and Michael were "swapping" fastest laps and pretty even.

MS 30 : NR 22 (57.7% of laps was faster)

If you subtract the 1st 10 laps of wet conditions and wing change (I think it goes without saying that Michael is a much better wet weather racer then Nico).. then the picture is

MS 24 : NR 19 (55.8%)

Considering Michael was consistently pushing to get into the points and passing "lesser" teams whereas Nico had to try and take on Ferrari, Redbull and McLaren .. so lapping a bit more conservatively .. I don't exactly think Michael put Nico to shame today.

Difference of opinion I guess to what the masses saw today.

#11217 vovelo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:40

whereas Nico had to try and take on Ferrari, Redbull and McLaren ..

what, are you serious ? :rotfl:


#11218 Disgrace

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:43

Penalty was a joke, Mansell's explanation doesn't sit well either. If Schumacher had bumped the Sauber off and continued without damage he should have received an penalty... but he lost his front wing and had to do a lap without it and non-racing speeds... that should have been his penalty. He made an mistake, he paid for it with a lost front wing and the resulting pit stop.


You are right, and I hope you've applied the same logic to di Resta in Canada, Monaco and Alonso in Malaysia in order to make your views consistent. The stewards are consistent, but they're consistently WRONG. That doesn't absolve them, or justifies "precedents" as far as I'm concerned.

#11219 Diablobb81

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:43

Considering Michael was consistently pushing to get into the points and passing "lesser" teams whereas Nico had to try and take on Ferrari, Redbull and McLaren .. so lapping a bit more conservatively .. I don't exactly think Michael put Nico to shame today.


What? This makes no sense.

He tried to catch the guys in front, he had clear air, so he goes slower. :stoned: :rotfl:


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#11220 VresiBerba

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:45

Lewis locked up going in to a turn to prevent an overtake, and pushed the overtaking car wide and was able to retain position.

Sorry because, again, I must have missed that one. When did this, identical thing to Shumi, happen :confused:

Penalty was a joke, Mansell's explanation doesn't sit well either. If Schumacher had bumped the Sauber off and continued without damage he should have received an penalty... but he lost his front wing and had to do a lap without it and non-racing speeds... that should have been his penalty. He made an mistake, he paid for it with a lost front wing and the resulting pit stop.

Then Alonso's penalty in Malaysia was even more of a joke, seeing that Lewis was then able to continue and score points whereas Kobayashi weren't today, perhaps as a direct result of Shumi ramming him. Added to that, Shumi has a tendancy to run into people ruining his own front wing and disrupting other drivers these days, three times in six races.

#11221 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:47

what, are you serious ? :rotfl:


Yes. :wave: He didn't have reason to push any hard then he did. The outcome would have most likely been the absolute same.

Michael on the other hand had cars ahead of him that were easier to pass and by pushing could have improved his positioning significantly.

#11222 sharo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:49

So I'm a "troll" then, for saying that Shumi was due this penalty, and humbly asking what Lewis did that was "identical incident in the same race"? So can you then point me towards what Lewis did during this race that was identical to what Shumi did, because no-one else has been able, since I honestly missed that one.

It's off topic but just FYI
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And it's not a mistake, it's deliberate action.

Edited by sharo, 10 July 2011 - 15:51.


#11223 Jazza

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:54

It's off topic but just FYI
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How the hell is that identical?

MS lost the rear of his car and slid into another, sending that car into a spin. LH entered a different corner in front of another car, and that car went around the outside of him which resulted in some contact on the exit (both cars kept going). Identical?

#11224 Disgrace

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:56

What a blatantly misleading picture. It's the same as taking a picture of someone in the middle of a blink and suggesting they're mentally ill because of it.

#11225 sharo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 15:57

You're right they are not identical, this one is even worse :)
and repeated at the next corner too.
But I guess this thread is not the right place, so I stop here.

#11226 VresiBerba

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:03

It's off topic but just FYI
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And it's not a mistake, it's deliberate action.

Excuse me, but how is that related to what Shumi did and what Diablobb81 called "identical incident in the same race" :rolleyes: Do you call that "identical"?

Edit: This better not be what you Shumi-fans are referring to...

Edited by VresiBerba, 10 July 2011 - 16:04.


#11227 BRK

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:04

Di Resta caused an avoidable collision that was identical to the Schumacher-Kobayashi incident.


The moment it happened I almost thought the Jerry and the Jap get unfair penalties while the Scot gets away scot-free but that would be a wrong thing to say, of course. :p

#11228 arknor

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:09

Excuse me, but how is that related to what Shumi did and what Diablobb81 called "identical incident in the same race" :rolleyes: Do you call that "identical"?

Edit: This better not be what you Shumi-fans are referring to...

that photo doesnt show much watch the race hamiltons clearly slides into the side of massa and forced massas ferrari to slide wider than it otherwise would have but because massa didnt happen to spin he got away with it.
to me its just a racing incident things like this will happen and it doesnt warrant a penalty at all its good we want to see real racing.

i dont think anyone is suggesting lewis deserved a penalty more of that schumachers collision with kobayashi wasnt intentional , he obviously had less grip than he had anticipated it was just a racing incident and the penalty was going to far lewis has done worse and been given a reprimand and thats all imo that schumacher deserved

#11229 Kubiccia

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:18

Schumacher is faster than Rosberg this year, open your eyes..

this

But another way to look at it... he did what he needed to get 6th... only 2 stopped so he ended up running on older tires for much longer thereby slowing his pace a bit as he had to look after them to make them work that long. Nico "may" have been able to get to 5th.. a bit of stretch ..

Michael on the other hand had fresh rubber more often and had to push much more just to get to 9th.

What lap did Michael serve his penality on???

Either way, based on that tear strip lap summary, look more like Nico and Michael were "swapping" fastest laps and pretty even.

MS 30 : NR 22 (57.7% of laps was faster)

If you subtract the 1st 10 laps of wet conditions and wing change (I think it goes without saying that Michael is a much better wet weather racer then Nico).. then the picture is

MS 24 : NR 19 (55.8%)

Considering Michael was consistently pushing to get into the points and passing "lesser" teams whereas Nico had to try and take on Ferrari, Redbull and McLaren .. so lapping a bit more conservatively .. I don't exactly think Michael put Nico to shame today.

Difference of opinion I guess to what the masses saw today.

Paco, you are working as hard as you can to look stupid. Nico was so slow that was holding Perez the whole race, he never had chance to cruise and had to push all the time. If Schumacher didn't crash into Koba, he would have finished wayyy ahead. Take out the "Stop and Go" time and Michael is already ahead of Nico, not to mention the time he lost cruising with a broken fw car and all the 10 seconds his pit stop took. Then, take in consideration the amount of cars he had to pass on track and you see how much slower Nico was.

I don't know wheter if Schumacher race pace is good or if Nico's is just pathetic.

#11230 Math89

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:19

EJ bashing is a disgrace! Who does this guy think he is?


Could be i'm misreading your post, but what did EJ say about Michael? Missed it apparently...

#11231 arknor

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:35

Could be i'm misreading your post, but what did EJ say about Michael? Missed it apparently...

he was doing his usual "be controversial for the sake of beeing a troll" and saying schumacher deserved the penalty bla bla bla, coulthard was suggesting schumacher didnt deserve a penalty after hearing schumachers comments ej was back with his "ra ra ra schumach penalty ra ra" rubbish

#11232 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:37

this



Paco, you are working as hard as you can to look stupid. Nico was so slow that was holding Perez the whole race, he never had chance to cruise and had to push all the time. If Schumacher didn't crash into Koba, he would have finished wayyy ahead. Take out the "Stop and Go" time and Michael is already ahead of Nico, not to mention the time he lost cruising with a broken fw car and all the 10 seconds his pit stop took. Then, take in consideration the amount of cars he had to pass on track and you see how much slower Nico was.

I don't know wheter if Schumacher race pace is good or if Nico's is just pathetic.


I never once said Michael wouldn't be ahead of Nico if.. he hadn't lost his front and if.. he hadn't the stop and go.. If all those things hadnt happened, then yeah, for sure Michael would have been ahead barring some other odd occurance transpring.

Nico ran a fine and conservative race and we won't ever know if he had some type of handicap i.e. issue with car, setup for a dry race whereas Michael was setup for wetter setup and cooler conditions etc. That info will always remain within the team. Michael may have even gambled on Saturday with his setup hoping the race would be wet and cool at some point. Hence why he looked off yesterday and on today in comparison to Nico.

So for any of us to say Nico was rubbish in comparison to Michael in my opinion is simply an oversimplication of the result. It may well be fact but I don't believe that is the case based on what I saw transpire.



#11233 Disgrace

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:40

I don't know wheter if Schumacher race pace is good or if Nico's is just pathetic.


Or probably, somewhere in between. Rosberg usually gets what is expected of the car and that is to his credit. If you put him in a WDC-worthy car, a WDC could be delivered. He is still a top driver.

#11234 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:42

Paco, you are working as hard as you can to look stupid. Nico was so slow that was holding Perez the whole race, he never had chance to cruise and had to push all the time. If Schumacher didn't crash into Koba, he would have finished wayyy ahead. Take out the "Stop and Go" time and Michael is already ahead of Nico, not to mention the time he lost cruising with a broken fw car and all the 10 seconds his pit stop took. Then, take in consideration the amount of cars he had to pass on track and you see how much slower Nico was.

I don't know wheter if Schumacher race pace is good or if Nico's is just pathetic.


The one thing I find race in and race out is fans (fanatics) making excuses for Michael's points end positioning and always trying to make it look like he performed better then he did. Often times, he was really good out on track but tooo many bumps with others are hurting his finishing position. If he was a rookie, then yeah it would be easy to understand but he's not.

He's a multiple world champion, having driven some of the most awe inspiring races of all time and to try and put Nico down because Michael flub the race with a stupid move .. and it was stupid is just silly in my opinion. Nico is getting the job done better and more professionally at the track then Michael.

That said, I still feel Michael is way way more valuable to the Mercedes cause and bring them out of this situation and making them a top 3 team.

Edited by Paco, 10 July 2011 - 16:44.


#11235 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:13

Excuse me, but how is that related to what Shumi did and what Diablobb81 called "identical incident in the same race" :rolleyes: Do you call that "identical"?

Edit: This better not be what you Shumi-fans are referring to...

There is no point debating with you anyway: your clear aim on this thread is to disagree with MS fans.


#11236 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:14

Di Resta caused an avoidable collision that was identical to the Schumacher-Kobayashi incident.


The moment it happened I almost thought the Jerry and the Jap get unfair penalties while the Scot gets away scot-free but that would be a wrong thing to say, of course. :p


Pun inteded?
:rotfl: :clap:

#11237 VresiBerba

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:35

There is no point debating with you anyway: your clear aim on this thread is to disagree with MS fans.

I disagree with anyone I don't agree with, Shumi-fans or otherwise. Sorry, your droids are still the ones I'm looking for.

#11238 Boxerevo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:42

No racing incident today should be penalised.

Stop and go... wtf.

And Schumacher still slower than rosberg on dry conditions in my opinion,is that he excells in dump and rain conditions and Nico sucks.

#11239 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:44

I disagree with anyone I don't agree with, Shumi-fans or otherwise. Sorry, your droids are still the ones I'm looking for.

As someone stated earlier: your posts are to wind people up.
:wave:

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#11240 arknor

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 18:22

No racing incident today should be penalised.

Stop and go... wtf.

And Schumacher still slower than rosberg on dry conditions in my opinion,is that he excells in dump and rain conditions and Nico sucks.

silverstone wasnt damp all day and schumacher was faster all race
http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5162896

if you go on the mclaren site and do the compare between schumacher and rosberg it shows what position each driver was in next to the laptimes and almost all the time when rosberg was faster than schumacher not long after schumacher had gained a place so was slowed down while overtaking

Edited by arknor, 10 July 2011 - 18:24.


#11241 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 18:43

I disagree with anyone I don't agree with, Shumi-fans or otherwise. Sorry, your droids are still the ones I'm looking for.


Sure, Ill believe that when I see it.
:drunk:


#11242 LiJu914

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 19:08

Long story short:

MSC had very good pace today.

He lost ~36-38sec due to the "crash-lap" and the S&G.

So MSC seemed to be faster today, if we neglect the traffic-situation for both MGP-drivers (i think both had traffic at times).

But in the end it doesn´t matter, if MSC continues to sabotage his own races....

#11243 SeanValen

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 19:34

Penalty was a joke, Mansell's explanation doesn't sit well either. If Schumacher had bumped the Sauber off and continued without damage he should have received an penalty... but he lost his front wing and had to do a lap without it and non-racing speeds... that should have been his penalty. He made an mistake, he paid for it with a lost front wing and the resulting pit stop.



Agreed, and Couthard and Brundle considered the penality harsh as well. With DRS and damp track, even in the races Schumacher and others have won in the past, including Alonso and other podium winners today, you don't have a wet race without having a moment in some corners, after Brundle said he didn't expect Schumacher to get a penality, I did start to wonder that at times this year, the FIA have just dropped the ball, it's just too costly to hand out a penality, especially if you've damaged your own wing, then you get comprimised on strategy, it's almost like 2-3 penalities in one.


But considering this is mercedes going for points and not wins, Rosberg has been showing weaker race performances compared to his qualifying, he will accept points, but Schumacher will take the risks in going for more positions, if Schumacher wanted to just stay ahead of Rosberg today, he could have, he's risking his own standings compared to Rosberg to go for higher rewards, like Canada this year, it could of been a 4th-5th place for MS rather then a 6th place by just doing enought o keep Rosberg behind, he's not willing to be content with just beating Nico, he's going for more, and that's where Nico's race shows up, I didn't get the impression at any point Nico had that bit extra.

Couthard and Brundle spot on today and Eddie Jordan a idiot. Schumacher strong recovery race, Nico way too quiet and conservative, yes Schumi did ruin himself, but he was also racing with the mindset of going for the ultimate race result par car performance, and I really think Michael had a 4th/5th place in him, definately 6th place ahead of Nico if he wanted a solid result and settle for it like Nico, but Michael was going for that extra 1-2 positions, and that's the difference between Nico and Michael in the race, it shows more promise if Mercedes get a better car later, Rosberg apart from that slow corners track Valancia, has had low key race performances compared to his qualifying sine Spain, while Michael let him off the hook at Turkey and Silverstone, Michael is fast, but Michael is not letting qualifying comprimise his race performance, maybe Nico is just qualifying higher to look better on Saturday like Trulli used to do, or maybe it's all he can do for the moment, it sometimes pay offs if Michael ends up tangeling with someone, and he's had a few of those, Nico collects, but like Hamilton, alot of what Schumacher has done this year, including Canada/Spain/and alot of Silverstone has been due to a strong race mindset from the start to finish,which is what you need if Mercedes is going to go up against Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton and from memory, Schumacher has actually raced Alonso/Hamilton at times/Canada and some other race where genuine pressure was applied by MS on them, Rosberg hasn't been involved in the gritty aspects of hard racing against the major players, and given the car MS has had, he's been able to do that, very promising indeed if merc gets a stronger car, MS is up for it, while Nico is happy to sit and collect points/not get stuck in, may make him look good points wise for rest of best losers this year, especially if MS gives away some points this year, but it don't look good if your preparing for major battles ahead, and that's MS's long term mindset, Nico is not a winner yet, nor is showing the mindset of a consistent future threat, especially with Schumacher showing improved overall speed since last year.


Edited by SeanValen, 10 July 2011 - 19:42.


#11244 spacekid

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 19:50

Longest. Sentence. Ever. :)

Edited by spacekid, 10 July 2011 - 19:52.


#11245 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:11

I'm sure one could find a longer sentence, but yeah, it would look better and be easier to read if you broke it down into several phrases Sean.

Other than that, it's a possible theory. But I just don't know whether being so frequently involved in avoidable accidents is to be deemed acceptable, even if MGP were battling for the top places. I am more or less content with the speed Michael has been showing during race weekends, even in qualifying where mere chance and a strategic error have placed him behind Nico in the last three races. It's just that all these front wing changes are not constructive and I don't really see how this approach can bring success in the long term. So you're battling it out for a race win and go so hard that you lose your FW and then need to plough through the field to get back in a reasonable position?

I do feel that he's regained a positive attitude after Turkey and particularly Canada, even when things were going so-so, but consistency should not be ignored - with a good car, it might just be enough to gift you a WDC.

#11246 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:38

Longest. Sentence. Ever. :)


Lol who cares, as long as we can make out what hes trying to convey.

#11247 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:55

I agree with Sean.

Schumacher is showing more of a racer attitude this year; willing to mix it up, over-taking, being gritty, determined and showing some of the old fire.

In contrast, Nico has generally maintained his qualifying position, kept his nose clean and head down and been content to hold position.

It shows a clearly different approach between the two drivers. I dare say, if Schumacher gets ahead of Nico in qualifying, we'd see a more determined Schumacher altogether.

Here's hoping!

#11248 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:58

I agree with Sean.

Schumacher is showing more of a racer attitude this year; willing to mix it up, over-taking, being gritty, determined and showing some of the old fire.

In contrast, Nico has generally maintained his qualifying position, kept his nose clean and head down and been content to hold position.

It shows a clearly different approach between the two drivers. I dare say, if Schumacher gets ahead of Nico in qualifying, we'd see a more determined Schumacher altogether.

Here's hoping!

:up:

#11249 ivand911

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 22:31

First Michael ,please ,please, stop losing the faxxing FW!!!! Penalty was little harder. I think they use this penalty only one time before in this year? Other than that ,good race. They usually didn't get in top 10 after big mistake and crazy penalty. I can live without this driver steward from now on. Michael lost more time in the penalty stop than in first pitstop. We can start to bet in which lap he will lose his FW in next race. :rolleyes:

Edited by ivand911, 11 July 2011 - 09:15.


#11250 exmayol

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 22:33

Pretty solid showing by MS today sans that costly mistake. The penalty was a loke. I mean I can see the drive-through being applied since the incident involves MS and we all know when MS is in the incident he's guilty by definition. But the 10 secnds stop-and-go was way over the line. Anyway, looking forward to strong showing at the Nurburgring!