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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#11251 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:37

this



Paco, you are working as hard as you can to look stupid. Nico was so slow that was holding Perez the whole race, he never had chance to cruise and had to push all the time. If Schumacher didn't crash into Koba, he would have finished wayyy ahead. Take out the "Stop and Go" time and Michael is already ahead of Nico, not to mention the time he lost cruising with a broken fw car and all the 10 seconds his pit stop took. Then, take in consideration the amount of cars he had to pass on track and you see how much slower Nico was.

I don't know wheter if Schumacher race pace is good or if Nico's is just pathetic.


I never once said Michael wouldn't be ahead of Nico if.. he hadn't lost his front and if.. he hadn't the stop and go.. If all those things hadnt happened, then yeah, for sure Michael would have been ahead barring some other odd occurance transpring.

Nico ran a fine and conservative race and we won't ever know if he had some type of handicap i.e. issue with car, setup for a dry race whereas Michael was setup for wetter setup and cooler conditions etc. That info will always remain within the team. Michael may have even gambled on Saturday with his setup hoping the race would be wet and cool at some point. Hence why he looked off yesterday and on today in comparison to Nico.

So for any of us to say Nico was rubbish in comparison to Michael in my opinion is simply an oversimplication of the result. It may well be fact but I don't believe that is the case based on what I saw transpire.



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#11252 Disgrace

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:40

I don't know wheter if Schumacher race pace is good or if Nico's is just pathetic.


Or probably, somewhere in between. Rosberg usually gets what is expected of the car and that is to his credit. If you put him in a WDC-worthy car, a WDC could be delivered. He is still a top driver.

#11253 Paco

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 16:42

Paco, you are working as hard as you can to look stupid. Nico was so slow that was holding Perez the whole race, he never had chance to cruise and had to push all the time. If Schumacher didn't crash into Koba, he would have finished wayyy ahead. Take out the "Stop and Go" time and Michael is already ahead of Nico, not to mention the time he lost cruising with a broken fw car and all the 10 seconds his pit stop took. Then, take in consideration the amount of cars he had to pass on track and you see how much slower Nico was.

I don't know wheter if Schumacher race pace is good or if Nico's is just pathetic.


The one thing I find race in and race out is fans (fanatics) making excuses for Michael's points end positioning and always trying to make it look like he performed better then he did. Often times, he was really good out on track but tooo many bumps with others are hurting his finishing position. If he was a rookie, then yeah it would be easy to understand but he's not.

He's a multiple world champion, having driven some of the most awe inspiring races of all time and to try and put Nico down because Michael flub the race with a stupid move .. and it was stupid is just silly in my opinion. Nico is getting the job done better and more professionally at the track then Michael.

That said, I still feel Michael is way way more valuable to the Mercedes cause and bring them out of this situation and making them a top 3 team.

Edited by Paco, 10 July 2011 - 16:44.


#11254 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:13

Excuse me, but how is that related to what Shumi did and what Diablobb81 called "identical incident in the same race" :rolleyes: Do you call that "identical"?

Edit: This better not be what you Shumi-fans are referring to...

There is no point debating with you anyway: your clear aim on this thread is to disagree with MS fans.


#11255 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:14

Di Resta caused an avoidable collision that was identical to the Schumacher-Kobayashi incident.


The moment it happened I almost thought the Jerry and the Jap get unfair penalties while the Scot gets away scot-free but that would be a wrong thing to say, of course. :p


Pun inteded?
:rotfl: :clap:

#11256 VresiBerba

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:35

There is no point debating with you anyway: your clear aim on this thread is to disagree with MS fans.

I disagree with anyone I don't agree with, Shumi-fans or otherwise. Sorry, your droids are still the ones I'm looking for.

#11257 Boxerevo

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:42

No racing incident today should be penalised.

Stop and go... wtf.

And Schumacher still slower than rosberg on dry conditions in my opinion,is that he excells in dump and rain conditions and Nico sucks.

#11258 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 17:44

I disagree with anyone I don't agree with, Shumi-fans or otherwise. Sorry, your droids are still the ones I'm looking for.

As someone stated earlier: your posts are to wind people up.
:wave:

#11259 arknor

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 18:22

No racing incident today should be penalised.

Stop and go... wtf.

And Schumacher still slower than rosberg on dry conditions in my opinion,is that he excells in dump and rain conditions and Nico sucks.

silverstone wasnt damp all day and schumacher was faster all race
http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=5162896

if you go on the mclaren site and do the compare between schumacher and rosberg it shows what position each driver was in next to the laptimes and almost all the time when rosberg was faster than schumacher not long after schumacher had gained a place so was slowed down while overtaking

Edited by arknor, 10 July 2011 - 18:24.


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#11260 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 18:43

I disagree with anyone I don't agree with, Shumi-fans or otherwise. Sorry, your droids are still the ones I'm looking for.


Sure, Ill believe that when I see it.
:drunk:


#11261 LiJu914

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 19:08

Long story short:

MSC had very good pace today.

He lost ~36-38sec due to the "crash-lap" and the S&G.

So MSC seemed to be faster today, if we neglect the traffic-situation for both MGP-drivers (i think both had traffic at times).

But in the end it doesn´t matter, if MSC continues to sabotage his own races....

#11262 SeanValen

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 19:34

Penalty was a joke, Mansell's explanation doesn't sit well either. If Schumacher had bumped the Sauber off and continued without damage he should have received an penalty... but he lost his front wing and had to do a lap without it and non-racing speeds... that should have been his penalty. He made an mistake, he paid for it with a lost front wing and the resulting pit stop.



Agreed, and Couthard and Brundle considered the penality harsh as well. With DRS and damp track, even in the races Schumacher and others have won in the past, including Alonso and other podium winners today, you don't have a wet race without having a moment in some corners, after Brundle said he didn't expect Schumacher to get a penality, I did start to wonder that at times this year, the FIA have just dropped the ball, it's just too costly to hand out a penality, especially if you've damaged your own wing, then you get comprimised on strategy, it's almost like 2-3 penalities in one.


But considering this is mercedes going for points and not wins, Rosberg has been showing weaker race performances compared to his qualifying, he will accept points, but Schumacher will take the risks in going for more positions, if Schumacher wanted to just stay ahead of Rosberg today, he could have, he's risking his own standings compared to Rosberg to go for higher rewards, like Canada this year, it could of been a 4th-5th place for MS rather then a 6th place by just doing enought o keep Rosberg behind, he's not willing to be content with just beating Nico, he's going for more, and that's where Nico's race shows up, I didn't get the impression at any point Nico had that bit extra.

Couthard and Brundle spot on today and Eddie Jordan a idiot. Schumacher strong recovery race, Nico way too quiet and conservative, yes Schumi did ruin himself, but he was also racing with the mindset of going for the ultimate race result par car performance, and I really think Michael had a 4th/5th place in him, definately 6th place ahead of Nico if he wanted a solid result and settle for it like Nico, but Michael was going for that extra 1-2 positions, and that's the difference between Nico and Michael in the race, it shows more promise if Mercedes get a better car later, Rosberg apart from that slow corners track Valancia, has had low key race performances compared to his qualifying sine Spain, while Michael let him off the hook at Turkey and Silverstone, Michael is fast, but Michael is not letting qualifying comprimise his race performance, maybe Nico is just qualifying higher to look better on Saturday like Trulli used to do, or maybe it's all he can do for the moment, it sometimes pay offs if Michael ends up tangeling with someone, and he's had a few of those, Nico collects, but like Hamilton, alot of what Schumacher has done this year, including Canada/Spain/and alot of Silverstone has been due to a strong race mindset from the start to finish,which is what you need if Mercedes is going to go up against Alonso/Vettel/Hamilton and from memory, Schumacher has actually raced Alonso/Hamilton at times/Canada and some other race where genuine pressure was applied by MS on them, Rosberg hasn't been involved in the gritty aspects of hard racing against the major players, and given the car MS has had, he's been able to do that, very promising indeed if merc gets a stronger car, MS is up for it, while Nico is happy to sit and collect points/not get stuck in, may make him look good points wise for rest of best losers this year, especially if MS gives away some points this year, but it don't look good if your preparing for major battles ahead, and that's MS's long term mindset, Nico is not a winner yet, nor is showing the mindset of a consistent future threat, especially with Schumacher showing improved overall speed since last year.


Edited by SeanValen, 10 July 2011 - 19:42.


#11263 spacekid

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 19:50

Longest. Sentence. Ever. :)

Edited by spacekid, 10 July 2011 - 19:52.


#11264 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:11

I'm sure one could find a longer sentence, but yeah, it would look better and be easier to read if you broke it down into several phrases Sean.

Other than that, it's a possible theory. But I just don't know whether being so frequently involved in avoidable accidents is to be deemed acceptable, even if MGP were battling for the top places. I am more or less content with the speed Michael has been showing during race weekends, even in qualifying where mere chance and a strategic error have placed him behind Nico in the last three races. It's just that all these front wing changes are not constructive and I don't really see how this approach can bring success in the long term. So you're battling it out for a race win and go so hard that you lose your FW and then need to plough through the field to get back in a reasonable position?

I do feel that he's regained a positive attitude after Turkey and particularly Canada, even when things were going so-so, but consistency should not be ignored - with a good car, it might just be enough to gift you a WDC.

#11265 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:38

Longest. Sentence. Ever. :)


Lol who cares, as long as we can make out what hes trying to convey.

#11266 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:55

I agree with Sean.

Schumacher is showing more of a racer attitude this year; willing to mix it up, over-taking, being gritty, determined and showing some of the old fire.

In contrast, Nico has generally maintained his qualifying position, kept his nose clean and head down and been content to hold position.

It shows a clearly different approach between the two drivers. I dare say, if Schumacher gets ahead of Nico in qualifying, we'd see a more determined Schumacher altogether.

Here's hoping!

#11267 differential

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 20:58

I agree with Sean.

Schumacher is showing more of a racer attitude this year; willing to mix it up, over-taking, being gritty, determined and showing some of the old fire.

In contrast, Nico has generally maintained his qualifying position, kept his nose clean and head down and been content to hold position.

It shows a clearly different approach between the two drivers. I dare say, if Schumacher gets ahead of Nico in qualifying, we'd see a more determined Schumacher altogether.

Here's hoping!

:up:

#11268 ivand911

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 22:31

First Michael ,please ,please, stop losing the faxxing FW!!!! Penalty was little harder. I think they use this penalty only one time before in this year? Other than that ,good race. They usually didn't get in top 10 after big mistake and crazy penalty. I can live without this driver steward from now on. Michael lost more time in the penalty stop than in first pitstop. We can start to bet in which lap he will lose his FW in next race. :rolleyes:

Edited by ivand911, 11 July 2011 - 09:15.


#11269 exmayol

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 22:33

Pretty solid showing by MS today sans that costly mistake. The penalty was a loke. I mean I can see the drive-through being applied since the incident involves MS and we all know when MS is in the incident he's guilty by definition. But the 10 secnds stop-and-go was way over the line. Anyway, looking forward to strong showing at the Nurburgring!

#11270 Dunder

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 00:28

Pretty solid showing by MS today sans that costly mistake. The penalty was a loke. I mean I can see the drive-through being applied since the incident involves MS and we all know when MS is in the incident he's guilty by definition. But the 10 secnds stop-and-go was way over the line. Anyway, looking forward to strong showing at the Nurburgring!


The drivers were told on Thursday that all penalties would be stop and go's because the net time loss for a drive thru would only be 9 seconds.

Looked at in isolation (as the stewards, of course, should) I thought the penalty was harsh. With that said I do think it would be overly lenient for him to have gone without a singly penalty for the incidents with Petrov (Turkey and Valencia) as well the collision with Koba at Silverstone.


#11271 Spa95

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 03:35

With that said I do think it would be overly lenient for him to have gone without a singly penalty for the incidents with Petrov (Turkey and Valencia) as well the collision with Koba at Silverstone.

Oh, retrospective penaltys now. Fine, I hope di Resta and Hamilton get pulled in for a 10 second Stop&Go at the Nurburgring "because of what happened at Silverstone". :up:

#11272 baddog

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 04:02

Looked at in isolation (as the stewards, of course, should) I thought the penalty was harsh. With that said I do think it would be overly lenient for him to have gone without a singly penalty for the incidents with Petrov (Turkey and Valencia) as well the collision with Koba at Silverstone.

There is a mechanism for that, and it was not used..

#11273 steveninthematrix

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 05:56

its very simple

which country has the highest percentage of fans which dislike Michael Schumacher?

the UK

where was the race held?

the UK

where did the stewards for the race come from?

enough said

the penalty was ridiculous, because it makes the statement that a driver at 150mph in a corner shouldn't dare make a mistake on a wet track, and if he loses his wing or ever crashes into another car, he will also be penalized

that being said, MS did a great fight-back drive, Nico seemed a bit asleep today..... onward to the next race

#11274 black magic

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:49

no question if the team wanted a racer then michael is their man. if they wanted an accumulator of points then maybe Nico.

unfortunately the other teams will be watching and seeing nico rel consistantly now being outpaced by michael regardless of finishing position mean his place in the pecking order will be sliding.

generally teams want someone who will give it a go rather than safety first.

and the trend sare becoming increasingly clear. nico has a slight adbvanteg come qual, but michael is quicker on race day, frequently nabbing his teammate as he did again last night a the start. yes his mistakes have cost him but for good portions of the gp michael was matching the leaders or at least those from 3 downwards.

#11275 Massa_f1

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 11:01

I thought the Penalty was so stupid to be honest. I as very unhappy about it. Of course to make it worse it was a stop go. I think if you damage your own car with a mistake there is no need to be punished. You already have been. I am not saying Schumacher was at fault he was he yet again lost if front wing :mad: The stop go was not needed though.

#11276 ivand911

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 12:20

DIR and Lewis also hit other cars. Did they get stop and go?

#11277 arknor

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 13:35

DIR and Lewis also hit other cars. Did they get stop and go?

did button in canada for knocking alonso off?

#11278 BRK

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 16:29

DIR and Lewis also hit other cars. Did they get stop and go?


That's what was asked yesterday but no answer was forthcoming, they camped on the Schumacher-Rosberg thread instead.

#11279 Sakae

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 17:12

To be frank, I was expecting that from the day one upon his return, that rules will be applied to his persona more frequently in full, and more severe than with others. One poster summarized that point actually quite well earlier on.

Edited by Sakae, 11 July 2011 - 17:14.


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#11280 Concorde

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 17:25

where did the stewards for the race come from?

France, Sweden and only Mansell from the island so I don't think that contributed to Michael receiving a penalty.

I like Michael and he had a very interesting drive yesterday but that penalty was not unfair. Maybe not necessary because he had to go in for repairs himself but nothing outrageous imo.

#11281 sharo

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 18:39

DIR and Lewis also hit other cars. Did they get stop and go?

On the same question I was told here that those have nothing in common with MS-KOBA. Can't see why, maybe because MS is involved, but thought not worth arguing. While HAM for the second time after Monaco uses Massa's car as a moving support to make the corner, but in Monaco the stewards thought different than in GB.

#11282 hansmann

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 18:56

I think the penalty was as much of a racing incident as the crash itsself - it's racing, it happens .

Seems to me, as soon as Michael manages to keep his front wing on, the results will mirror his capabilities .;)

#11283 Afterburner

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 19:23

Seems to me, as soon as Michael manages to keep his front wing on, the results will mirror his capabilities .;)

Now that I think about it, he hasn't had too much luck with front wings on the W02, has he? :rotfl:

#11284 arknor

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 07:10

Now that I think about it, he hasn't had too much luck with front wings on the W02, has he? :rotfl:

you know what else is strange theres probbaly not a single race where someone doesnt lose a nose trying to overtake kobayashi

#11285 BRK

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 07:30

Still nothing on the di Resta incident.

Fact is that it was a simple mistake, the penalty was far too harsh. In fact both penalties that were handed out were stupid, the pitlane argument was silly and they should have handed out drive-throughs instead.

Nevertheless: Michael is pushing hard in a car that is nowhere near as good as those of the front runners, mistakes are bound to happen, if anything it's an indication he is pushing. It's of little consequence when the team clearly have no way of challenging for wins of podiums yet.

#11286 ivand911

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 07:38

Now that I think about it, he hasn't had too much luck with front wings on the W02, has he? :rotfl:

I start to think it is not MS fault ,it is design defect. Look at McL FW, they never lose it. Lewis hit Massa twice strongly in the last lap and he only lost small end part. :p

Edited by ivand911, 12 July 2011 - 08:52.


#11287 differential

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 08:17

Still nothing on the di Resta incident.

Fact is that it was a simple mistake, the penalty was far too harsh. In fact both penalties that were handed out were stupid, the pitlane argument was silly and they should have handed out drive-throughs instead.

Nevertheless: Michael is pushing hard in a car that is nowhere near as good as those of the front runners, mistakes are bound to happen, if anything it's an indication he is pushing. It's of little consequence when the team clearly have no way of challenging for wins of podiums yet.

:up:
Im sure the team knows this :cool:

#11288 arknor

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 09:15

Still nothing on the di Resta incident.

Fact is that it was a simple mistake, the penalty was far too harsh. In fact both penalties that were handed out were stupid, the pitlane argument was silly and they should have handed out drive-throughs instead.

Nevertheless: Michael is pushing hard in a car that is nowhere near as good as those of the front runners, mistakes are bound to happen, if anything it's an indication he is pushing. It's of little consequence when the team clearly have no way of challenging for wins of podiums yet.

at times i think hes pushing to hard because he wants results so bad a bit like how hamilton is , maybe its because they both got used to having a car that can challenge for wins and its frustrating for them having to battle for 6 position and other poor results.

or maybe hes just clumsy and im biased

#11289 Boing 2

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 09:48

you know what else is strange theres probbaly not a single race where someone doesnt lose a nose trying to overtake kobayashi


you're implying that it was Kobi's fault that Michael locked up and ran up his arse? :drunk:

#11290 arknor

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:31

you're implying that it was Kobi's fault that Michael locked up and ran up his arse? :drunk:

not this time as it was obvious schumacher carried to much speed for the grip levels but you must admit kobayashi does seem to slow down on the apex of a corner or accelerate out of a corner slower than other drivers expct which causes them to lose a nose cone.

has there been a n actual race where someone hasnt lose a nose or part of it to the rear of kobayashis car? in canada it was nicos turn ;)

in the kobayashi thread theres some people suggesting kobyashi is doing a form of break testing with how he uses the corners

Edited by arknor, 12 July 2011 - 10:32.


#11291 Muz Bee

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:40

I start to think it is not MS fault ,it is design defect. Look at McL FW, they never lose it. Lewis hit Massa twice strongly in the last lap and he only lost small end part. :p

:lol:

#11292 Boing 2

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:42

not this time as it was obvious schumacher carried to much speed for the grip levels but you must admit kobayashi does seem to slow down on the apex of a corner or accelerate out of a corner slower than other drivers expct which causes them to lose a nose cone.

has there been a n actual race where someone hasnt lose a nose or part of it to the rear of kobayashis car? in canada it was nicos turn ;)

in the kobayashi thread theres some people suggesting kobyashi is doing a form of break testing with how he uses the corners



I would imagine if he was wrecking peoples races by brake testing he would be brought before the beak and asked to show his telemetry. I think it's more likely that he has accidents because he fights a corner much longer than most, you saw that with maldonado, Kobi just wouldn't let the place go. Maybe that puts him wheel to wheel in the middle of corners where most drivers would already be clearly behind at that point, thus exposing him to the chance of collisions.

#11293 Clatter

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:52

Strange that the stewards report for the MS incident hasn't been published. Or have they hidden it away somewhere?

#11294 Boing 2

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 11:10

I notice the FIA website has gone 'members only'




#11295 ivand911

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 11:14

not this time as it was obvious schumacher carried to much speed for the grip levels but you must admit kobayashi does seem to slow down on the apex of a corner or accelerate out of a corner slower than other drivers expct which causes them to lose a nose cone.

has there been a n actual race where someone hasnt lose a nose or part of it to the rear of kobayashis car? in canada it was nicos turn ;)

in the kobayashi thread theres some people suggesting kobyashi is doing a form of break testing with how he uses the corners

Heidfeld also lost his FW in Koba's rear end in Canada. This guy brake strangely.
Lewis miss the corner twice(flew out of the track) ,but he was lucky there wasn't somebody like Koba ahead of him.

Edited by ivand911, 12 July 2011 - 11:14.


#11296 Jejking

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 12:33

not this time as it was obvious schumacher carried to much speed for the grip levels but you must admit kobayashi does seem to slow down on the apex of a corner or accelerate out of a corner slower than other drivers expct which causes them to lose a nose cone.

has there been a n actual race where someone hasnt lose a nose or part of it to the rear of kobayashis car? in canada it was nicos turn ;)

in the kobayashi thread theres some people suggesting kobyashi is doing a form of break testing with how he uses the corners

Agreed with that one. It looked like clumpsy but I'm sure Kobayashi was very slow in the corner, outside the apex. In the wet that shouldn't have to be an issue but I think he would have hit the pedal earlier to get back up to speed. Schumacher just slid in him with that correction, racing incident. The penalty was pretty much 'way too' harsh, like David and Martin already admitted.

#11297 sharo

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 13:09

............................
The penalty was pretty much 'way too' harsh, like David and Martin already admitted.

It seems to me there is a pattern since Michael's return - they first punish him and after that admit the punishment has been harder than necessary or even not quite fair (Monaco 2010).

#11298 Jejking

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 13:11

Too bad it's forbidden to protest against decisions on steward level.

#11299 BRK

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 13:13

It seems to me there is a pattern since Michael's return - they first punish him and after that admit the punishment has been harder than necessary or even not quite fair (Monaco 2010).


Along with the incidents MS gets unfortunately involved in, this will disappear once he has a car that performs to his liking.

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#11300 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,683 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 12 July 2011 - 13:15

I notice the FIA website has gone 'members only'


No it hasn't.