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#11401 Prost1997T

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 10:35

Hmm sorry I've mistakenly not added the point that those two occassions are when Hill was not taking it the fair way against Schumacher. My bad.


Bearing in mind that Schumacher did a chop on Frentzen while leaving the pits in that very same race, I find it a tad hypocritical to complain when he's on the receiving end :p

Don't get me wrong, Michael was a world class driver in his day, but he had his share of dodgy moves.

Edited by Prost1997T, 20 July 2011 - 10:36.


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#11402 MightyMoose

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:43

Don't get me wrong, Michael was a world class driver in his day, but he had his share of dodgy moves.


As did Senna, as did many drivers previously... I'm hardly going out on a limb when I make the suggestion of the possibility that Hamilton may well be remembered as a "dodgy mover" once his career ends, he's had so many issues already and I can't see him changing that much.

Sometimes to be at the ultimate top of the tree, you need that hard side, that says "here's the rule, but the line lies a little further away, so I'm pushing to that line and perhaps beyond". If the rules are changed after you've made your "move" then so much the better, because now your competitors can't do it to you!

Top level sport is often decided by such moments.... rightly or wrongly, that's generally how it is.

#11403 Prost1997T

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:50

As did Senna, as did many drivers previously... I'm hardly going out on a limb when I make the suggestion of the possibility that Hamilton may well be remembered as a "dodgy mover" once his career ends, he's had so many issues already and I can't see him changing that much.

Sometimes to be at the ultimate top of the tree, you need that hard side, that says "here's the rule, but the line lies a little further away, so I'm pushing to that line and perhaps beyond". If the rules are changed after you've made your "move" then so much the better, because now your competitors can't do it to you!

Top level sport is often decided by such moments.... rightly or wrongly, that's generally how it is.


Indeed. I didn't like the Senna/Prost crap at Japan either. As for Hamilton more recently, well thats 50:50. Schumacher (of all people) didn't turn into him when he made a lunge at Ste Devote but Maldonado did. The Massa incident was his fault though, so the penalty for that was deserved. Unfortunately he was too ambitious at Canada and paid the price.

#11404 Boing 2

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 13:29

You do. There aren't so many examples out there. Suzuka 1997 was one of them and Canada 98 the next and last. I think that about sums it all up.


Well in the end it was Mika annihilating himself by going off twice and all that matters is when you cross the line. Whether it's in the pits or on the track (winkwink).


As has been pointed out, Hill was racing at the time, not being lapped so had every right to fight.

Silverstone was an interesting race in the sense that schumacher won the race without taking his stop and go penalty. Unfortunately it was during the Mosley years when Ferrari went unpunished for most things so the win stood.

#11405 EdwardCullen

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 15:38

Silverstone was an interesting race in the sense that schumacher won the race without taking his stop and go penalty. Unfortunately it was during the Mosley years when Ferrari went unpunished for most things so the win stood.

I dont know why people still go on saying it went unpunished etc etc
and i have read about the loophole numerous times in this very forum

It is that back then there was no rule of taking the penalty within 3 laps ( this i have some doubt)
There was no rule of taking the penalty in the last lap
and nowadays the pit boxes SHOULD come after the start finish line, but back then this was not the case
No rule stating you cannot finish the race on track (these is rule now)

All these loopholes meant the old Brawn and Schumy pair exploited it

Frankly they didnot break any rule back then, it was after this very race did FIA stepped in to close these loopholes

Thats why now you cannot take a drive thru at the final 3 laps, and all the pit boxes comes after start finish line....see this pic http://www.motorspor.....0High Res.jpg you will understand how the pitboxes are placed

Well this being Schumacher incident people take the easy route and call them cheat, rather than understand what it is.

Edited by EdwardCullen, 20 July 2011 - 15:40.


#11406 Boing 2

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 17:11

I dont know why people still go on saying it went unpunished etc etc
and i have read about the loophole numerous times in this very forum

It is that back then there was no rule of taking the penalty within 3 laps ( this i have some doubt)
There was no rule of taking the penalty in the last lap
and nowadays the pit boxes SHOULD come after the start finish line, but back then this was not the case
No rule stating you cannot finish the race on track (these is rule now)

All these loopholes meant the old Brawn and Schumy pair exploited it

Frankly they didnot break any rule back then, it was after this very race did FIA stepped in to close these loopholes

Thats why now you cannot take a drive thru at the final 3 laps, and all the pit boxes comes after start finish line....see this pic http://www.motorspor.....0High Res.jpg you will understand how the pitboxes are placed


Well this being Schumacher incident people take the easy route and call them cheat, rather than understand what it is.


I have no problem with taking the finish line in the pits actually, unless that's demonstrably quicker than doing it on track as it would be in the new layout this year. The problem was that a stop and go penalty entails entering the pits, driving to the box, holding and leaving the pits, the whole thing is the penalty. Schumacher crossed the line and finsihed his race before he even reached his box, the penalty simply wasn't taken within the race.

#11407 EdwardCullen

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 17:33

I have no problem with taking the finish line in the pits actually, unless that's demonstrably quicker than doing it on track as it would be in the new layout this year. The problem was that a stop and go penalty entails entering the pits, driving to the box, holding and leaving the pits, the whole thing is the penalty. Schumacher crossed the line and finsihed his race before he even reached his box, the penalty simply wasn't taken within the race.

lol, have you been paying attention? :drunk:

Back in 1998 the silverstone race track's first pit box was before the start finish line! ( which was moved forward after that race when FIA closed the loophole)
Which means that he took the penalty before finishing the race, so taking the penalty and then finishing the race.
What he gained was time taken to do the outlap! which was IMO exploiting a loophole

and moreover if i remember correctly the penalty handed to Schumacher was wrong and the Stewards admitted their mistakes

Edited by EdwardCullen, 20 July 2011 - 17:41.


#11408 Boing 2

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 18:20

lol, have you been paying attention? :drunk:

Back in 1998 the silverstone race track's first pit box was before the start finish line! ( which was moved forward after that race when FIA closed the loophole)
Which means that he took the penalty before finishing the race, so taking the penalty and then finishing the race.
What he gained was time taken to do the outlap! which was IMO exploiting a loophole

and moreover if i remember correctly the penalty handed to Schumacher was wrong and the Stewards admitted their mistakes



http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Listen to Brundle at 0.36 secs, Schumacher crossed the finish line before reaching his box.

#11409 Jomyboy

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 04:52

Did anyone catch SCHUMACHER REVEALED that was on CNN 11pm Indian time?

#11410 Jejking

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:05

Bearing in mind that Schumacher did a chop on Frentzen while leaving the pits in that very same race, I find it a tad hypocritical to complain when he's on the receiving end :p

Don't get me wrong, Michael was a world class driver in his day, but he had his share of dodgy moves.

Ha! Now that you mention it, that was actually the same race. In fact, that particular incident put him back behind Hill who made the triple defense move on Schumacher. He called it all upon himself :smoking:

On a serious note: I'd like to put MSC vs HHF in the category Button - Hamilton 13 years later, I think a good chunk of clumpsiness was going on there and he apologized for it, although at that time the move was reasonably good for his amount of WDC points. If it were Driver X vs Driver X, it would have probably been less discussed and called a newb moment, can you agree with that?

#11411 Jejking

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:16

As has been pointed out, Hill was racing at the time, not being lapped so had every right to fight.

Silverstone was an interesting race in the sense that schumacher won the race without taking his stop and go penalty. Unfortunately it was during the Mosley years when Ferrari went unpunished for most things so the win stood.

That doesn't acknowledge the point you are making. During both times Hill showed poor sportsmanship. If you're actively hindering a championship contender (Suzuka) for 3 seconds or blocking him in extreme ways (Canada), that tells you something. I don't want to go as far as calling Hill a bad driver because he wasn't. He was also not superduper either. But then again, you can say that Hill had not much opportunity to hinder MSC simply because after 1995 MSC was still consistently in the top while Hill dropped back due to bad cars. Thing is, nobody will ever know how far this would have gone but these two incidents are just not great to look at.

You might want to drag Suzuka 1998 here by its hairs to call Hill being in his right. And he was during that race. At that moment, although he was called aside in order to not hinder his own race (and Jordan's quest for P4 in the WCC) and Schumacher, he decided to take on the fight. That's his call and he handled it well so no harm done there.

Edited by Jejking, 21 July 2011 - 09:20.


#11412 FlashMaster

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:49

MS @ Norschleife :love:

http://www.facebook....5...e=1

Hopefully we'll see the video soon

#11413 Prost1997T

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 14:03

That doesn't acknowledge the point you are making. During both times Hill showed poor sportsmanship. If you're actively hindering a championship contender (Suzuka) for 3 seconds or blocking him in extreme ways (Canada), that tells you something. I don't want to go as far as calling Hill a bad driver because he wasn't. He was also not superduper either. But then again, you can say that Hill had not much opportunity to hinder MSC simply because after 1995 MSC was still consistently in the top while Hill dropped back due to bad cars. Thing is, nobody will ever know how far this would have gone but these two incidents are just not great to look at.


I'm not saying Damon was immune to errors in judgement, if anything letting MSc get to him mentally was what wrecked his 1995 season.

You might want to drag Suzuka 1998 here by its hairs to call Hill being in his right. And he was during that race. At that moment, although he was called aside in order to not hinder his own race (and Jordan's quest for P4 in the WCC) and Schumacher, he decided to take on the fight. That's his call and he handled it well so no harm done there.


He was stuck behind JV's Williams anyway (probably why he was pitted before Jacques and Michael).

#11414 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 17:28

Reading the press conference transcript, Schumacher seems a bit fed up with all the retirement questions:

Q. (Marc Ellerich – Sport1) Mr Schumacher, there are reports that maybe it's the last time that the Grand Prix will take place at the Nurburgring. What is your comment on that?

MS: It would be a shame.


However, he was having some fun there with Vettel and when asked about why there are so many German drivers in F1, Rosberg's answer was:

NR: Surely, Michael himself is also responsible for there being so many good Germans in racing, because he's the one who gave the sport such a boom in Germany, and then there's a knock-on effect from there, that more kids want to start racing, there's more money to support them and everything.

The rest was covered in the news reports, about how everyone is positive MGP is heading in the right direction.

#11415 arknor

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 18:32

MS @ Norschleife :love:

http://www.facebook....5...e=1

Hopefully we'll see the video soon

not just MSC
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#11416 Raelene

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:30

Bearing in mind that Schumacher did a chop on Frentzen while leaving the pits in that very same race, I find it a tad hypocritical to complain when he's on the receiving end :p

Don't get me wrong, Michael was a world class driver in his day, but he had his share of dodgy moves.



there was a little more to that "incident"...but I'm sure you will remember what happened at the end of the pit lanes with the lights...

Michael's made dirty moves, but that one.... himmmm, a bit more to do with the lights at the end of pit lane than "scaring a driver" off the track...

#11417 Prost1997T

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:32

there was a little more to that "incident"...but I'm sure you will remember what happened at the end of the pit lanes with the lights...

Michael's made dirty moves, but that one.... himmmm, a bit more to do with the lights at the end of pit lane than "scaring a driver" off the track...


So drivers leave the pits without even a glance in their mirrors? Or are you saying HHF was alongside before Michael could see him?

#11418 Raelene

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:33

??? where did I say anything of the sort - look at the video - MS would have seen him - but they didn't touch at all - HHF just got scared.

Do you remember the issue with the lights?

Edited by Raelene, 21 July 2011 - 21:34.


#11419 RudyO

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:35

Reading the press conference transcript, Schumacher seems a bit fed up with all the retirement questions:

Q. (Marc Ellerich – Sport1) Mr Schumacher, there are reports that maybe it's the last time that the Grand Prix will take place at the Nurburgring. What is your comment on that?

MS: It would be a shame.


Sorry but I got to correct you there. At first I also thought they were talking about never coming back to Nürburgring because of MSC retiring after 2012 (next year, it's Hockenheim's turn again).
But actually the reason is that the administration of the federal state is about to reduce their subsidies for the GP and, therefore, the race might be cancelled.



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#11420 Prost1997T

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:37

??? where did I say anything of the sort


You seem to be defending the move. Or at least that's how your post came across.

Do you remember the issue with the lights?


No. It's a good thing the pit exit was changed later though...having cars exit directly into 190mph traffic on the kink wasn't a great design.

#11421 fieraku

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:37

I'm a LH fan but wanted to say I've been supporting Schumi since his comeback,wasn't a big fan before.
So my wish for this GP is a MS podium,as has been for a while now. :)

#11422 Raelene

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:39

the lights ast the end of pit lane were supposed to show when another car was coming down - they didn

MS got a penalty - even though Patrick Head was going to do everything to get him thrown out of the race

re: the move - I don't think it was deliberate - he came out, he went next to HHF, he corrected, HHF got scared, they didn't touch, HHF went on the grass MS got a penalty.

here's the overhead - maybe you haven't really seen it properly if you didn't know about the lights at the end of pit lane.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related



#11423 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 21:41

Sorry but I got to correct you there. At first I also thought they were talking about never coming back to Nürburgring because of MSC retiring after 2012 (next year, it's Hockenheim's turn again).
But actually the reason is that the administration of the federal state is about to reduce their subsidies for the GP and, therefore, the race might be cancelled.


Ah, good to know. Any GP with Michael Schumacher S is good enough to stay on the F1 calendar in my book. :D


#11424 SCUDmissile

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 22:09

what car is MS driving? is it a lemans car or someting? :love:

#11425 ch103

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 22:47

I say this as a lifelong MSC fan.

When people refer to MSC's strength's as a driver they reference his ability to develop a car. Some even say it makes up for his weaknesses in his talent.

So does that fact that this year, Mercedes is so far off proof of just how bad the car is? Because with MSC developing the car, and still being this far back, it just shows how slim but significant that mechanical know how of RBR, Ferrari and McLaren have over the German Giant.

Or can we say that MSC's in ability to move the Benz to the front of the grid is consequence of no testing?

anyway, just some thoughts....

I really really hope for rain on Sunday - give the Germans, and all MSC fans a chance to see him race in the rain again!



#11426 scheivlak

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 22:51

what car is MS driving? is it a lemans car or someting? :love:

It's the streamlined version of the 1954 F1 car, the W196 http://www.ddavid.co...la1/merc196.htm

F1 cars were allowed to have a streamlined bodywork like that at the time.

#11427 Raelene

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 23:19

I say this as a lifelong MSC fan.

When people refer to MSC's strength's as a driver they reference his ability to develop a car. Some even say it makes up for his weaknesses in his talent.

So does that fact that this year, Mercedes is so far off proof of just how bad the car is? Because with MSC developing the car, and still being this far back, it just shows how slim but significant that mechanical know how of RBR, Ferrari and McLaren have over the German Giant.

Or can we say that MSC's in ability to move the Benz to the front of the grid is consequence of no testing?

anyway, just some thoughts....

I really really hope for rain on Sunday - give the Germans, and all MSC fans a chance to see him race in the rain again!



No testing

#11428 ch103

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 23:22

No testing


that would imply, to me, that the Mercedes Benz engineers lack some sort of necessecary creativity to bring "risky" concepts into production.

#11429 SeanValen

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 23:37

that would imply, to me, that the Mercedes Benz engineers lack some sort of necessecary creativity to bring "risky" concepts into production.





Basically forget 2010, 2011 is the first year for the team with the budget they should of had in 2010 but didn't, they were looking to make a big jump straight away, but all the time lost in 2010 is not easy to catch up with. Mercedes the brand, implies a big budget team like ferrari, but redbull for a while now, have more people working for them, something is wrong there, ferrari are ferrari, been there, structures in place, so too mclaren, that's big competition with their simulators and all, important with no testing, and mercedes is working towards getting what those teams have in place in basic structure. You can see fruits of potential, but the bar of redbull/mclaren/ferrari/3 teams is probabley masking the improvements were seeing from mercedes, as Schumacher commented on recently, he's beginning to see things work, but with 3 teams stealing alot of points, they will always look behind in actual results this year, but if they can stamp out some progression to not just getting 4th place team, but showing strong performances, threatening the podium more often, that'll show some building blocks.

It's interesting, with possible testing return being discussed, maybe this winter maybe a better one for mercedes, because I think they lack in house simulator technology compared to redbull/ferrari/mclaren, they could do with testing and Michael on track, I prefer some winter action myself, the small teams and teams building up like mercedes could do with testing, I'm sure the big teams now will want to avoid testing, typical, but I think testing/at least some is important and kinda a ritual for the winter months. I would rather have teams prepared and thing working, the kers/drs issues this year, in the first few races for mercedes, really bad, I'm sure testing would of ironed that out, and the other teams could probably test that better then mercedes.

Edited by SeanValen, 21 July 2011 - 23:42.


#11430 SCUDmissile

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 07:05

It's the streamlined version of the 1954 F1 car, the W196 http://www.ddavid.co...la1/merc196.htm

F1 cars were allowed to have a streamlined bodywork like that at the time.

oh right. interesting. well, the streamlined version looks better than the normal!

very nice car.

#11431 arknor

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 07:16

I say this as a lifelong MSC fan.

When people refer to MSC's strength's as a driver they reference his ability to develop a car. Some even say it makes up for his weaknesses in his talent.

So does that fact that this year, Mercedes is so far off proof of just how bad the car is? Because with MSC developing the car, and still being this far back, it just shows how slim but significant that mechanical know how of RBR, Ferrari and McLaren have over the German Giant.

Or can we say that MSC's in ability to move the Benz to the front of the grid is consequence of no testing?

anyway, just some thoughts....

I really really hope for rain on Sunday - give the Germans, and all MSC fans a chance to see him race in the rain again!

barrichello did more testing miles at ferrari than schumacher did for some of the years they were team mates , i think irvine was the oposite and just wanted to race

#11432 nOfe4r

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:40

Schumacher is told not to trialbrake. So he must not do what his driving made unique.

The ECU won't switch to "overrun" and the downforce drops. I never thought this driving style could be a disadvantage but just driving "ordinary" can only be bad for someone who always did it the other way. I wonder if he is really enjoying that.

#11433 KiloWatt

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:55

Schumacher is told not to trialbrake. So he must not do what his driving made unique.

The ECU won't switch to "overrun" and the downforce drops. I never thought this driving style could be a disadvantage but just driving "ordinary" can only be bad for someone who always did it the other way. I wonder if he is really enjoying that.


Interesting. Unless they changed their ECU map, this can't be a new phenomenon, yet first I've heard of it.

#11434 arknor

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 16:24

Interesting. Unless they changed their ECU map, this can't be a new phenomenon, yet first I've heard of it.

he was warned alot last year in practice sessions aswell (not just today) that he was braking with the throttle on, it was one of the ways he used to carry so much speed through the corners using the brake to balance the car

Edited by arknor, 22 July 2011 - 16:24.


#11435 spacekid

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 16:28

he was warned alot last year in practice sessions aswell (not just today) that he was braking with the throttle on, it was one of the ways he used to carry so much speed through the corners using the brake to balance the car


I get told off for this every time I go karting :p

Seriously though, its an interesting point. Theres an excellent youtube vid with other drivers discussing this aspect of Schumi's driving in the 90s. Explains much.

#11436 puxanando

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 16:59

Schumi can be happy that Alonso is a intelligent racer! :cat:

#11437 salamin

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 17:11

Schumi can be happy that Alonso is a intelligent racer! :cat:


nothing special here...
Schumacher was driving his line, while Alonso made a clumsy attempt to overtake him

#11438 arknor

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 17:42

Schumi can be happy that Alonso is a intelligent racer! :cat:

thats how what the bbc commentary team said, they praised schumacher for his late breaking which caught alonsos clumsy overtaking manouver out.

they also made note that you arent obliged to get out of the way if a faster car comes behind you in a practice session and that doing so could comprimise your program

#11439 banesi

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 17:47

well, they also said that they think Michael didn't saw Alonso coming at all :D
I hope for a podium finish on sunday!

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#11440 puxanando

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 18:12

I hope for a podium finish on sunday!

:cat: forget it!

#11441 BiH

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 18:12

Schumacher is told not to trialbrake. So he must not do what his driving made unique.

The ECU won't switch to "overrun" and the downforce drops. I never thought this driving style could be a disadvantage but just driving "ordinary" can only be bad for someone who always did it the other way. I wonder if he is really enjoying that.



was that during practice 2 team radio?



#11442 EdwardCullen

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 18:17

Schumi can be happy that Alonso is a intelligent driver clumpsy / incompetent overtaker! :cat:

corrected  ;)

:cat: forget it!

Thank you for enlightening us with ur superior wisdom
Now plz crawl back to ur Alonso thread

Edited by EdwardCullen, 22 July 2011 - 18:24.


#11443 arknor

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 18:49

:cat: forget it!

did alonso ever find those 6 tenths he promised mclaren all those years ago?

#11444 Afterburner

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 18:53

did alonso ever find those 6 tenths he promised mclaren all those years ago?

"Obvious troll is obvious". Move on, guys.

Positive times from MS in FP2 today, hoping he can continue this form over the weekend. Fingers crossed for a podium if it rains. :)

Edited by Afterburner, 22 July 2011 - 18:54.


#11445 EdwardCullen

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 18:56

has anyone got any good high res pictures of Michael Schumacher on the Michael Schumacher 'S' ? :)

Edited by EdwardCullen, 22 July 2011 - 18:58.


#11446 puxanando

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 21:09

corrected ;)
Now plz crawl back to ur Alonso thread

:well: here are "frontiers" and silly things like this?

#11447 as65p

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 22:13

well, they also said that they think Michael didn't saw Alonso coming at all :D


Yeah, the oldest excuse in racing. Funnily enough with MS at this stage of his career it might even be true. Lots of cars either beside, in front or behind him go unnoticed these days...

#11448 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 23:42

yes, completely ignoring his first laps and successful wheel to wheel moves
but heck, let's not stop the losers from posting. internet is free...

#11449 Sakae

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 00:37

First race at Indy; right hander+S, wheel to wheel with DC - thin piece of paper between them but no contact, fans screaming with delight, Murray gasping for air, unforgetable racing of those two, Michael coming on top.

Edited by Sakae, 23 July 2011 - 00:39.


#11450 spacekid

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 11:02

Horrible FP3 after an encouraging FP2. Not sure how much to expect from Qualifying. 7th would be great.