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#1101 DaleCooper

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 06:15

As much as I liked Keke on and off track, there's no getting around that he was simply exposed by Prost to be not in the same class. Before he had built a reputation as "F1's fastest driver", probably the most marketable artificial label around, loved by the press and the public likewise. That bubble simply burst when he encountered Prost, same with Piquet against Mansell later or more recently Räikönnen against Massa.

Somehow I sense at the end of this season we can probably add another pairing to that list... ;)



It ain't over between Hamilton and Button, not by a longshot!

Cooper

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#1102 as65p

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 06:59

It ain't over between Hamilton and Button, not by a longshot!

Cooper


:up: :wave:

Certainly not. But who would have thought it would start so close and exciting?

#1103 Lifew12

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 07:40

In all seriousness put your thinking cap on - understand the publicity difference between Rosberg winning a
GP and MS winning one...

Which will Mercedes Benz benefit more from on the BIG scale of things...


I couldn't disagree more: Rosberg winning would be Mercedes Benz winning; Michael winning would be Michael winning. Besides, Brawn isn' going to be stupid enough to sacrifice Rosbergs performances for the sake of Schumacher, he'll want any changes to suit both.

#1104 cheapracer

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:08

I couldn't disagree more: Rosberg winning would be Mercedes Benz winning; Michael winning would be Michael winning. Besides, Brawn isn' going to be stupid enough to sacrifice Rosbergs performances for the sake of Schumacher, he'll want any changes to suit both.


Then I call you a narrow minded race fan.

Mercedes are in this to sell product, do you really think many millions of people know who Rosberg is? - They don't but most people in the civilised world have heard the name Michael Schumacher, many not even knowing what he does. I myself recognise names/faces of people and I don't know what they do.

Mercedes marketing department would in a nanaosecond have MS associated with a win over errr, what's'name again?

This is NOT about fair motor racing, never was, it is about brand recognition - get a clue, it's a big world out there and idealists get crushed every day in it.

http://en.wikipedia....Brand_awareness

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#1105 apoka

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:37

You are right, but I don't think that Rosberg will be completely ignored. *If* the Barcelona updates work, then Mercedes has a small chance to win the WDC. If it's Rosberg who can win it, then it would be a mistake to invest all resources towards building a car for Schumacher. After all, Rosberg is smart, young and on a three year contract. He could become a brand for Mercedes over the next years. He won't match Schumacher in this aspect, but it is reasonable to expect that Rosberg will become more popular in the next years. That said, I really hope that they can develop a car suiting both drivers.


#1106 FlashMaster

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:42

The only driver in F1 who ever could have won a race in a Minardi, was Jos Verstappen!

And Schumacher is two steps less than him in the talent scale.


:rotfl: The best joke ever

#1107 ivand911

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:43

For sure they develop the car to suit both drivers. I think they both will benefit from this updates. Nico is also very optimistic about updates and what he see and hear in factory. But this discussion Michael/Nico is for other thread?

#1108 BRK

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 08:59

Then I call you a narrow minded race fan.

Mercedes are in this to sell product, do you really think many millions of people know who Rosberg is? - They don't but most people in the civilised world have heard the name Michael Schumacher, many not even knowing what he does. I myself recognise names/faces of people and I don't know what they do.

Mercedes marketing department would in a nanaosecond have MS associated with a win over errr, what's'name again?

This is NOT about fair motor racing, never was, it is about brand recognition - get a clue, it's a big world out there and idealists get crushed every day in it.

http://en.wikipedia....Brand_awareness

.


Besides,Schumacher is the face of Formula One,especially in areas where motorsport is not as popular as it is in Europe. Schumacher's rise to dominance coincided with F1's global boom,thanks in part to the dot com bubble and Bernie's efforts. Despite having stayed away from the sport for three years,the name is still synonymous with racing: anyone that has travelled across Asia/Japan would know exactly what I'm talking about. Apart from Korea and Japan,China's a big market for Mercedes,and they already have a presence in SE Asia and Singapore. India isn't quite as lucrative to the luxury carmaker segments but with a rapidly escalating middle-class and with the likes of Audi and BMW already testing the waters,Mercedes cannot afford to lag behind: and Schumacher's a religion among the F1 fanbase in India. Then there's the middle-eastern Sheikhdoms: cash cow haven for Mercedes.

#1109 Lifew12

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:27

Then I call you a narrow minded race fan.


You can call me what you like!

Do you actually believe that if Michael continues to underperform as he is Mercedes will keep him on simply because he's Michael Schumacher? Here's another trick to try: ask the next person who passes you by on the street what car manufacturer they associate Michael Schumacher with, and I'll bet you any money it's not Mercedes Benz.

Granted, brand recognition is a great part of F1 these days - it is, after all, a corporate game - but the overall aim of Mercedes is to win, to be seen as the best; sure, they'd love Michael Schumacher to do it, but if it becomes every more clear he isn't going to, they aren't going to go on paying him for his name. They can't exactly use 'Michael Schumacher - 10th again in a Mercedes' as an advertising tagline, can they? They can, however, use 'Mercedes Benz takes Nico Rosberg to his first win - the first of many'.

A name is worth nothing unless it achieves its aim.



#1110 Number62

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:32

Then I call you a narrow minded race fan.

Mercedes are in this to sell product, do you really think many millions of people know who Rosberg is? - They don't but most people in the civilised world have heard the name Michael Schumacher, many not even knowing what he does. I myself recognise names/faces of people and I don't know what they do.

Mercedes marketing department would in a nanaosecond have MS associated with a win over errr, what's'name again?

This is NOT about fair motor racing, never was, it is about brand recognition - get a clue, it's a big world out there and idealists get crushed every day in it.

http://en.wikipedia....Brand_awareness

.


I think Life12's point is, among the people who read the back pages Schumacher is a bigger brand than Mercedes is a bigger brand than Rosberg so the headlines are:

"Shumacher wins again" or
"Mercedes first GP win with Rosberg"

#1111 merschu

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 09:58

Michael Schumacher might not be winning in F1 right now, but his son Mick has won a race in Kerpen about two weeks ago. :)

Edited by merschu, 23 April 2010 - 10:18.


#1112 Lifew12

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:29

Michael Schumacher might not be winning in F1 right now, but his son Mick has won a race in Kerpen about two weeks ago. :)


Really? Excellent, didn't know that!

#1113 One

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 10:51

I think Life12's point is, among the people who read the back pages Schumacher is a bigger brand than Mercedes is a bigger brand than Rosberg so the headlines are:

"Shumacher wins again" or
"Mercedes first GP win with Rosberg"


This is a reasonable assumption on Media behavior.

I do suspect, tho, that the day Rosberg win leaving Micheal in cold, media will never the less focus on what Michael think and does more than what has happened to Rosberg's winning and his emotion...

#1114 steferrari

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 13:59



#1115 derstatic

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 14:29

:rotfl: The best joke ever


It's true... Jos could have won Brazil 2003 (You know when Fisichella won in a PoS Jordan). Verstappen was running ahead of Fisichella on the same strategy in that race.

About Schumacher. Well his pace hasn't been great at all, but there's nothing wrong with the man's racing instincts. I loved the way he kept a 1.5 second and 10kph quicker Hamilton behind him for several laps with brilliant car placement skills and accurate braking off line in extremely difficult conditions in a car he didn't like at all. If Merc can sort that US Schu could win a race this season IMO.

#1116 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 15:08

Besides,Schumacher is the face of Formula One,especially in areas where motorsport is not as popular as it is in Europe.


A rather sad and downcast face, that is.
Certainly not the face of F1 2010.
Maybe the face of F1 first half of the Naughties.


#1117 rog

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 16:27



What was that? It has been deleted.

#1118 BRK

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 16:33

A rather sad and downcast face, that is.
Certainly not the face of F1 2010.
Maybe the face of F1 first half of the Naughties.


From a business and marketability standpoint,he's always going to be the face of Formula One. I've seen more posters and adverts featuring Schumacher than any other current driver.

I realize it hurts a bit to have to go through this for the haters,but that's life. Winners get placed on the pedestal because it's big money. Suck it up.

#1119 steferrari

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 16:33

What was that? It has been deleted.


Yeah i know. :|
It was some highlights of Michael during the Chinese GP, a quite sad video actually, with all the overtakes he received.

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#1120 labarte

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 19:24

Schumi's lack of pace puzzles me, I was very keen to see him re-enter the sport so it is a huge disappointment to me that he appears to be so uncompetitive. There's a great deal of talk on here about how the current cars are a disadvantage to him, and I think all that maybe true. It's also true that having less pit stops (in theory, we've had some crazy races so far though) denies him the chance to show the mastery he had of pulling off a stint of -- what were effectively -- back to back qualifying laps to maximise the advantages of the refuelling era. So many of his wins came that way, remember when he stopped four times to Alonso's three and still won in France 2004? In 2005 we never really got to see how Michael would have coped when he wasn't allowed to change his tyres because Bridgestone were so far behind Michelin it was ridiculous. I suspect it wouldn't have suited him though.

There is one major other factor to consider though, a massive difference between this season and the last time we saw the seven time world champion in F1. When I read that Michael is burning up his rears, I think back to the mid 90s and the controversy of Benetton hiding banned electronic driver aids in their software, which were activated by the driver making a particular series of inputs before the start of the race in the cockpit. This leads me to ask: has Schumacher ever won a world championship without traction control?

Schumacher is a 'take it to the apex as quick as possible then sort it out afterwards' kind of guy. Sure, the new rules for this season don't help him but maybe the most pertinent change occurred the season after he left F1 for the first time: the removal of driver aids.

TC, or not TC: that is the question.


#1121 Disgrace

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 19:28

I used to hate Schumacher with his 1994/1997 antics being unforgivable, but his current lack of performance is awkward, even for me to watch.

Edited by Disgrace, 23 April 2010 - 19:28.


#1122 LoviePants

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 20:59

Considering what a missile their car is in a straight line, doesn't matter how much amusement they had at the question, Lewis certainly was made to work hard to overtake a much slower car.


Not much cause for celebration when the only silver lining from the last race is the fantastic resistance to being passed shown by the champ as he fell down the field, all while his young gun teammate held station.
I guess all those years at Ferrari it really was mostly the car and the team orders and Ross B and not so much the talent of Schumacher. It makes me a bit sad to see Schumacher embarrass himself to this extent. I predict he will not complete the season. As soon as a reasonable excuse for his leaving can be dreamed up by the PR folks at MB then he will be gone. Perhaps a sudden relapse of his neck injury may be in store in the not to distant future. I never really liked Michael Schumacher much in his championship winning years but it brings me no joy to see the old man running around in the mi pack getting his but kicked by the young guns.

#1123 eoin

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:04

There is one major other factor to consider though, a massive difference between this season and the last time we saw the seven time world champion in F1. When I read that Michael is burning up his rears, I think back to the mid 90s and the controversy of Benetton hiding banned electronic driver aids in their software, which were activated by the driver making a particular series of inputs before the start of the race in the cockpit. This leads me to ask: has Schumacher ever won a world championship without traction control?

Schumacher is a 'take it to the apex as quick as possible then sort it out afterwards' kind of guy. Sure, the new rules for this season don't help him but maybe the most pertinent change occurred the season after he left F1 for the first time: the removal of driver aids.

TC, or not TC: that is the question.


Traction control only does so much. If Schumacher had TC on his car in china he would still of been slow- maybe a tenth or two faster, but still way off the pace. Now even if I accept the theory that he never won a WDC without TC(assuming that electronics/mappings were so advanced by 2000 that they were nearly TC and that 1995 never happened...) then he certainly challenged for dozens of wins without it between 96-99. Also: has any driver really struggled since the banning of TC? So are we saying that the only driver in F1 that can't drive without TC is the most successful F1 driver of all time?!

Edited by eoin, 23 April 2010 - 21:05.


#1124 labarte

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:24

So are we saying that the only driver in F1 that can't drive without TC is the most successful F1 driver of all time?!


That's putting it a bit strongly, I just think it could be exacerbating Schumi's problems and no one else seems to have brought it up.

#1125 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:31

There is one major other factor to consider though, a massive difference between this season and the last time we saw the seven time world champion in F1. When I read that Michael is burning up his rears, I think back to the mid 90s and the controversy of Benetton hiding banned electronic driver aids in their software, which were activated by the driver making a particular series of inputs before the start of the race in the cockpit. This leads me to ask: has Schumacher ever won a world championship without traction control?


TC, or not TC: that is the question.


A topic that is now being discussed in various places and by people in the know as well. Schumi and his need for TC, legal or illegal.
Looking at the way he struggles now with his 2010 car without TC, it does not bode so well for him....

Sadly it was this TC topic that also put an untimely end to Senna's career.

Karma, being what it is, a universal law, may finally make it visible for all: who Schumacher is without TC.


Schumacher is a 'take it to the apex as quick as possible then sort it out afterwards' kind of guy. Sure, the new rules for this season don't help him but maybe the most pertinent change occurred the season after he left F1 for the first time: the removal of driver aids.


Just look at the way his car struggles when he comes out of the corner...
He simply can't "take it to the apex as quick as possible" anymore.

Edited by aditya-now, 23 April 2010 - 21:34.


#1126 baddog

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:40

This leads me to ask: has Schumacher ever won a world championship without traction control?


If you dont know the answer to that question, or worse do know but refuse to accept the answer because you dont like it, then you perhaps should go away and do a lot of reading before burdening the rest of us with your opinions.

#1127 eoin

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:51

That's putting it a bit strongly, I just think it could be exacerbating Schumi's problems and no one else seems to have brought it up.


It has been 'discussed'(mostly by trolls, as you can see already) a number of times since the last race- hence why I am snappy and dismissed it!

#1128 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 21:56

If you dont know the answer to that question, or worse do know but refuse to accept the answer because you dont like it, then you perhaps should go away and do a lot of reading before burdening the rest of us with your opinions.




It has been 'discussed'(mostly by trolls, as you can see already) a number of times since the last race- hence why I am snappy and dismissed it!


Aha, very cautious statements by the Schumacher protagonists - they know well that this is a sticking point.
Let's see how Michael gets it sorted out in 2010 and what Ross Brawn will come up with to help him save his ass as usual.


#1129 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 22:00

--------------------
"Let's be honest about it, if every team was asked what driver they most wanted they would say Michael Schumacher"
Patrick Head.

Regarding your signature, eoin, this is way old. A has been commenting on another has been.
We are living in 2010!


The intriguing thing for me is that we have one man that could probably answer every question: Ross Brawn. Of course he would never go public, but by now I expect him to have a pretty good idea what it's all about, is MS simply a mere shadow of his former self or is Rosberg truly exceptional? Personally I'd go for the first option right now.


I really wonder if we will hear the full truth from Ross Brawn concerning Michael Schumacher. It would be very telling.

#1130 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 22:12

--------------------
"Let's be honest about it, if every team was asked what driver they most wanted they would say Michael Schumacher"
Patrick Head.

Regarding your signature, eoin, this is way old. A has been commenting on another has been.
We are living in 2010!


The intriguing thing for me is that we have one man that could probably answer every question: Ross Brawn. Of course he would never go public, but by now I expect him to have a pretty good idea what it's all about, is MS simply a mere shadow of his former self or is Rosberg truly exceptional? Personally I'd go for the first option right now.




I really wonder if we will hear the full truth from Ross Brawn concerning Michael Schumacher. It would be very telling.



or is this casting a dark shadow on Brawn as well as Schumacher. maybe those glory years at Ferrari had less to do with the dynamic duo of Brawn/Schumacher and more to do with the Ferrari team as assembled by Todt.

Brawn will be very supportive of Schumi.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 24 April 2010 - 03:17.


#1131 JensonWDC

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 22:12

:rotfl: to the TC discussion.
Almost as funny as back in 07 when all the armchair experts wanted to tell how much Massa will fade in 08 without TC :lol:

Edited by JensonWDC, 23 April 2010 - 22:13.


#1132 black magic

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 23:18

the role of TC and any drivers speed has never been understood by many it would seem

all TC ever did was raise the cornering ability of all the cars, increasing the speed required through corners to remain competitive. it also explained why mistakes were more common - in that with TC and the tyres there was no gradual loss of traction - you either had it or you didnt.

what TC never did was make someone slow fast. none of us could drive an F1 car at gp speed through a corner no matter how good the TC

a bigger change is not the loss of TC but the tyres

while it seemed logical to improve the mechanical grip offered by tyres the subsequant change to smaller front tyres, the allowance of double diffusers made no sense

that michael is struggling is clear and concerning. that this years performance explains the "hollowness" of past years success does not though the discussion by the nay sayers will be unstoppable.

fact is that schumacher was quick in whatever car he drove until this year. fact. fact was he out performed his teamamte consisatntly whatever their bleats - no one really believes they were even close to his match.

I guess even his diehards like me are being confronted with the fact that the sport does change and that he is not superman and that our desire to see performances like china, like spa etc etc over ruled our doubts that a 41 yr old really could past muster given that this years talent seems remarkably strong for such a relatively young group of drivers.

#1133 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 23:46

:rotfl: to the TC discussion.
Almost as funny as back in 07 when all the armchair experts wanted to tell how much Massa will fade in 08 without TC :lol:


Laughing about this discussion is of course a convenient way to avoid the issue.

From 2007 to 2008 everyone had to make the transition, so Massa and others were all confronted with the same task at hand, this is why there have not been such marked differences among the drivers. Plus Massa is not such a "bad" driver as many might believe.

Yet Schumacher was caught out with a "sudden" transition from TC to non-TC, from 2006 technology to 2010 technology, and obviously he is struggling.


the role of TC and any drivers speed has never been understood by many it would seem

all TC ever did was raise the cornering ability of all the cars, increasing the speed required through corners to remain competitive. it also explained why mistakes were more common - in that with TC and the tyres there was no gradual loss of traction - you either had it or you didnt.

what TC never did was make someone slow fast. none of us could drive an F1 car at gp speed through a corner no matter how good the TC


The TC managed the behavior of the car while cornering, allowing it to accelerate out of the corner in a smooth way. Here is exactly the weakness of Michael in 2010.
I give it to him that it might be indeed the chassis he is driving (also Lauda and some other greats were driving such chassis with difficult characteristics and could do nothing about it). Note that Nico and Michael never exchanged the chassis amongst each other, so there is no way of comparison.

If it is not some deeper issue with the chassis, though, then the problem lies indeed with Michael, the driver who used to be hailed with the ability to "drive around" any problems with the car....
Already Spain shall give us a clearer picture, and Michael some more time to adapt.



a bigger change is not the loss of TC but the tyres

while it seemed logical to improve the mechanical grip offered by tyres the subsequant change to smaller front tyres, the allowance of double diffusers made no sense


This argument fails, as everyone is driving the same tyres. If anything, Michael should be at an advantage here, as he has more experience with different tyre types and tyre dimensions over all those years than anyone else in the field....

Edited by aditya-now, 23 April 2010 - 23:50.


#1134 SeanValen

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 23:47

Yup primarily speaking the brigdestones were his achilles heels...but the tyres and the car are a package.the ferrari was ultra soft on tyres,in part due to its understeery nature..the OS liking driver needs ample front heat to have the confidence to try liftoversteer or lfbraking to induce OS in an inherently US car (the ferraris 07,08).he has no where to go when he doesnt have enough front tyre heat.thats the problem kimi had.

Brawn mentioned they had problems with both car development(underestimated the impact of the narrower fronts) and weight distribution.drivers like schumacher,raikkonen induce rear slides thru both fast and slow corners due to heir oversteery entry.but these slides are ''controlled'' slides..what happened with schumacher was the weight distribution was put more too much to the front to help him warm up his fronts.this resulted in too little grip at the rear,too much sliding around,high rear tyre wear and no grip.



The way Brawn was speaking is they had llearned very little in February, but learned more in the flyaway races, their testing really was the races, it was going to happen to some teams, I'm surprised redbull, ferrari and mclaren have all looked competitive in gps at points, Mclaren's f duct system, redbull's wow downforce especially in quali, 3 teams have done a very good job, mercedes were biorn as well, of the current top 3, so their catchup will be a mighty one given the competition. Now had Brawn had gotten Schumacher much earlier before christmas, and testing was as usual in jan/feb and there was no testing ban, I'm sure everyone would of been more prepared. If your car isn't as born as well as the others, the last thing you need is 4 fly away races, and 2 races being wet where you don't learn much as in the dry for car, if they can made a decent leap and sort the issues out even at spain, that would be good job.


This argument fails, as everyone is driving the same tyres. Indeed, Michael should be at an advantage here, as he has more experience with different tyre types and tyre dimensions over all those years than anyone else in the field....


Different tyre types the biggest underestimation in your thinking if you thinked long enough.
Same tyres on different cars designed by different designers who have not all gone the same route means the tyres won't be the same once they are on a different car. The cars are always changing, and how they work with tyres is well perhaps more cpmplicated then you and I can appreciate. That's the point, if you don't have the benefit of testing, cannot test tyres and changes to the car, and your design is not the quickest out of the box, then you won't be quick.

Why don't you become a mercedes engineer, looks like you understand more then the mercedes team does.

Edited by SeanValen, 23 April 2010 - 23:57.


#1135 aditya-now

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Posted 23 April 2010 - 23:52

If your car isn't as born as well as the others, the last thing you need is 4 fly away races, and 2 races being wet where you don't learn much as in the dry for car, if they can made a decent leap and sort the issues out even at spain, that would be good job.


If your car is not as good as the others (the other three top teams with six drivers), then it is indeed a miracle that Nico Rosberg with as little (or even less) time to test as Michael manages to be at 50 points in the WDC, only bettered by Button (60).


#1136 SeanValen

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 00:12

If your car is not as good as the others (the other three top teams with six drivers), then it is indeed a miracle that Nico Rosberg with as little (or even less) time to test as Michael manages to be at 50 points in the WDC, only bettered by Button (60).



I'm sure MS's dnf in sepang and broken wing in sepang flatters things even worser. But MS has had 3 years of virtually no testing, that's another point, racing is testing this season, especially at the start, Nico is gelling with the car in ways in which Jarno Trulli was gelling with his renault against Alonso in 2004, putting Alonso under pressure, even at his home race, Trulli's best season before he left I think, Rosberg is doing a good job, so was Trulli in 2004, but long term thinking is what the smart f1 fans are about, not jjumping to conclusions without understanding what can't be understood from the outside. Where's Trulli now...Rosberg has not achieved anything in f1 apart from podiums, he's doing well, but so was trulli in 2004. No one gave a toss about jenson button many years ago, maybe they won't again if he drives slow if he gets another bad car. long term f1 consistency through the years is what it is about, not half season wonders or 1 season wonders like HHF in 1999 in the Jordan, he had the best season of his career, Ralf Schumacher was challenging Michael in 2001, Ralf was a hot ticket in 2001, the perception of the car/tyre war made him look mighty, where is he now......

Is Rosberg having the best strint of his f1 career in 4 races or a few more or is Michael having a delayed kickstart to his comeback for many reasons ,we must also remember rossberg like massa, rubens and irvine, always will look better when someone like MS is having a bad time, especially if he's been away and coming back,, if Michael had been a second off or half a second off rosberg's pace in bahrain, then I would of signed off michael's come back as a failure there and then,it's a good time to kick Michael when he's down, but many have done that in the past, rosberg as good as he's looked so far, hasn't won anything monumental yet apart from being schuey's teamate in a bad stint of flyaway races for MS, that's all it is at the moment. :smoking: :stoned:

Edited by SeanValen, 24 April 2010 - 00:23.


#1137 Nonesuch

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 01:02

There is one major other factor to consider though, a massive difference between this season and the last time we saw the seven time world champion in F1. When I read that Michael is burning up his rears, I think back to the mid 90s and the controversy of Benetton hiding banned electronic driver aids in their software, which were activated by the driver making a particular series of inputs before the start of the race in the cockpit.

This leads me to ask: has Schumacher ever won a world championship without traction control?


Michael Schumacher won the world championships of 1994, 1995 and 2000 without traction control. In 2001, traction control was re-introduced at the fifth of seventeen Grand Prix (in Spain), and Michael Schumacher also won the championship that year (in Hungary, the thirteenth race of the season).

Michael Schumacher was a contender for the championship up to the last race in 1997 (against Villeneuve for Williams) and 1998 (against Hakkinen for McLaren).

TC, or not TC: that is the question.

From Brazil 1994 up to, but not including, Spain 2001, during which traction control was banned, the following short lists can be made:

F1 Championships: 1) Michael Schumacher, 3. 2) Mika Hakkinen, 2. 3) Damon Hill, 1 / Jacques Villeneuve, 1.
Grand Prix wins: 1) Michael Schumacher, 44. 2) Damon Hill, 19. 3) Mika Hakkinen, 18.
Points: 1) Michael Schumacher, 595. 2) Mika Hakkinen, 370. 3) David Coulthard, 320.
Pole positions: 1) Michael Schumacher, 35. 2) Mika Hakkinen, 26. 3) Damon Hill, 18.
Fastest laps: 1) Michael Schumacher, 35. 2) Mika Hakkinen, 23. 3) Damon Hill, 15.

Though I've checked the numbers, I cannot guarantee they are 100% correct, but the overall picture shouldn't change too much if I've missed one or two details.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Nonesuch, 24 April 2010 - 01:07.


#1138 Frans

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 12:58

no it doesn't..

Michael Schumacher won the world championships of 1994, 1995 and 2000 without traction control.


Is simply an untrue statement.

but I'm asked not to discuss TC in this thread of the TC-Meister of it. So I won't.

#1139 cheapracer

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 13:47

Sadly it was this TC topic that also put an untimely end to Senna's career.

Karma, being what it is, a universal law, may finally make it visible for all: who Schumacher is without TC.


Yeah it had nothing to do with a steering shaft snapping did it? If one didn't get into trouble for calling people names the word idiot would come up here.

The thing about TC or not or electronic suspension or turbos or slick tyres or wing changes or any other change is that the same pecking order tends to stay in place year after rule change year.

Your karma is due soon with your constant hate infestation at Atlas.



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#1140 FenderJaguar

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 13:50

Schumacher is a 'take it to the apex as quick as possible then sort it out afterwards' kind of guy. Sure, the new rules for this season don't help him but maybe the most pertinent change occurred the season after he left F1 for the first time: the removal of driver aids.

TC, or not TC: that is the question.


His drivingstyle was never that way. He is (or was) really good at keeping the speed as high as possible into the corner but more importantly - his aim was to keep the speed as high as possible through the corner and gaining time on the straight afterwards. I guess he would probably break earlier but smoother than some drivers in order to keep the speed as high as possible. Difficult to explain but if you look at this and go to where they compare him and Johnny Herbert it shows what I am trying to say.



#1141 cheapracer

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 14:20

Is simply an untrue statement.

but I'm asked not to discuss TC in this thread of the TC-Meister of it. So I won't.


Have you ever heard a car with TC Frans or you other accusers? Thought not. Distinctively different sound when in use regardless of which method you use.

There wasn't TC in use, teams can easily detect it with sound equipment let alone their own ears but they didn't and didn't protest.

Or

Prove it other than a threatened "no body can possibly be as fast as me so they must be cheating" Senna mouthing off about it.

Senna opted to stand and watch the cars complete the race to see if he could hear any noises that suggested traction control was being used illegally in the other cars. Senna returned to the Williams pit area after the race suspicious that the Benetton car was illegal.

Gee Mr Senna, was that the car/driver that was beating you?

Furthermore Frans/Accusers - lets pretend for a moment that there was TC for the first 3 races - what's the (cheating) excuse for the next 13 races after the FIA went through the computers of Ferrari McLaren and Benetton after race 3, San Marino??

#1142 grunge

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 15:11

Sadly it was this TC topic that also put an untimely end to Senna's career.

Karma, being what it is, a universal law, may finally make it visible for all: who Schumacher is without TC.

dear dear me...im not taking any sides here but thats one very stupid statement.

#1143 Messi10

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 15:11

"F1: Schumacher Has Doubters At Home
Most of the respondents to a survey in Michael Schumacher's native Germany say he shouldn't have returned to F1..."

http://formula-one.s...ubters-at-home/

#1144 grunge

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 15:17

This argument fails, as everyone is driving the same tyres. If anything, Michael should be at an advantage here, as he has more experience with different tyre types and tyre dimensions over all those years than anyone else in the field....

again,do u even realize the impact an under/oversteery car has on tire heating??..do u think an understeery car warms its fronts the same way a neutral/oversteery car does.?.have u ever driven a kart ,let alone fiddled with the setup?

ths statement that ''all drivers have the same tyres'' is simply too naive.each tyre set will behave differently depending on indivisual characteristics of the car.

#1145 aditya-now

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 15:19

"F1: Schumacher Has Doubters At Home
Most of the respondents to a survey in Michael Schumacher's native Germany say he shouldn't have returned to F1..."

http://formula-one.s...ubters-at-home/


"Maybe he has lost his feeling for driving during the three years of his retirement," Schumacher's Benetton teammate Jos Verstappen wrote in his latest column in the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf.

"What we are now seeing is that Schumacher is an ordinary man of flesh and blood and that even he cannot conduct magic," he added.



#1146 aditya-now

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 15:23

again,do u even realize the impact an under/oversteery car has on tire heating??..do u think an understeery car warms its fronts the same way a neutral/oversteery car does.?.have u ever driven a kart ,let alone fiddled with the setup?

ths statement that ''all drivers have the same tyres'' is simply too naive.each tyre set will behave differently depending on indivisual characteristics of the car.


I copy that.
I simply wonder how Nico Rosberg can handle that situation so much better than Michael, who was allegedly able to "drive around" anything.

My take on that remains: either Michael has an evil chassis (he and Nico never switched cars, so it´s a possibilty) and there has been no one in the history of the sport who could drive around that. Or Michael has simply lost his magic.

All these excuses about tyre, understeer etc - it should not apply to a driver of Michael´s stature stronger than to any other, more "ordinary" 2010 driver.


#1147 Messi10

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 15:28

I think Shumi needs a team that is specifically tailored to his needs, I was always one who believe that he was not that great as a driver and that if he would have gone to another team and faced off against as established top driver he wouldn't have dominated in the same fashion as he did in Ferrari. He never beat a strong opponent in the same car and that is something that will always stand out from his record..

With the limited testing now, a tailored team appears to be impossible to accomplish in the current f1. It takes him longer to adapt since he is older but his fitness should not be an issue because look at Barichello.

#1148 grunge

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 15:52

I copy that.
I simply wonder how Nico Rosberg can handle that situation so much better than Michael, who was allegedly able to "drive around" anything.

My take on that remains: either Michael has an evil chassis (he and Nico never switched cars, so it´s a possibilty) and there has been no one in the history of the sport who could drive around that. Or Michael has simply lost his magic.

All these excuses about tyre, understeer etc - it should not apply to a driver of Michael´s stature stronger than to any other, more "ordinary" 2010 driver.

nobody can ''drive around'' everything..a driver will always be faster in a car that suits his style as compared to a car that doesnt,no matter how much he adapts.as brawn mentioned to give the car a more responsive front,they shifted the weight too much to the front.that made the car have very little rear grip schumacher lost control on his trademark rear slides.theyre planning updates to settle the issue.

again im personally not sure whether we will ever see the schumacher of old return.but im keeping my opinion in check at the moment because the season's just started.if one could just wait for things to unfold further,see if the updates cause any improvement,see if he can get the confidence to get on the throttle earlier as his rear slide become less exaggerated.yes one could actually do that instead of being the ''naive beings'' that many here are and writing him off.

the TC discussion as well..u cant sit here in your armchairs and say hes lost it because there no TC anymore.u cannot form that opinion unless u have 1)the telemetry traces of his ornering and 2)engineers to explain them to you.and 3)after uve ruled out defective rear grip as the cause of his imbalance on his exit...as no one here has access to any of that data,the resulting opinions are uneducated and ignorant.

Edited by grunge, 24 April 2010 - 15:55.


#1149 Dragonfly

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 16:34

I copy that.
I simply wonder how Nico Rosberg can handle that situation so much better than Michael, who was allegedly able to "drive around" anything.


- Nico has no driving experience with cars back in time, which can have an effect in both directions
- Nico has followed the evolution of the cars and tyres after 2006, which marks significant changes in handling and behavior
- Nico has built his driving skills and style on Williams, which while not a bad car, never has been a contender. For him Brawn-Mercedes is an improvement.




#1150 min12

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Posted 24 April 2010 - 17:19

- Nico has no driving experience with cars back in time, which can have an effect in both directions
- Nico has followed the evolution of the cars and tyres after 2006, which marks significant changes in handling and behavior
- Nico has built his driving skills and style on Williams, which while not a bad car, never has been a contender. For him Brawn-Mercedes is an improvement.

I thought we were talking about MS, the One and Only :)

- who can drive around anything
- who would leave no stone unturned in preparation for the 2010 season
- who will be the best mentally, physically, tehnically
- who could jump in a Ferrari last summer, win Spa and another race and totally embarrass Badoer, Fisichella, Raikkonen
- who will beat Barbie, Britney, whatever, into a pulp
etc.

Obviously that must be a different guy, not the one that emerged from the eulogies of kar, sean, dale, and the rest of his fanbase.