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#11601 SeanValen

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:40

I think he is very much capable of getting the best out of the car. I think he is already doing that in terms of race pace. Rosberg is definitely managing qualifying better than MSC. No question there at all. However MSC has the better starts and first laps. He also takes more risks and you get the feeling he is racing. Somehow with Rosberg, with all due respect and he deserves that, it seems he is driving more than racing. But that does give Nico more points than MSC but is maybe not as exciting to watch. Watch his first lap move on Button a few days ago ! The old man still has it and I really believe that.

In 1996, the Ferrari wasn't as bad as the Mercedes 2011 in comparison to the cars ahead. Unable to make top 5 ? No. Unreliable ? Yes. Eddie has close to 10 retirements that year !! In 2011, it's reversed. Cars are generally much more reliable today and Merc struggles to make the Top 5. In Germany, the Merc's fastest lap was a second slower than the big three. That is a lot and both drivers need a good car first in order to fight the three teams in front.




Nico said his car wasn't handeling as well as qualifying, if it was, he'll be a podium man, but that has been the case this year, Nico's quali pace hasn't reflected the pace we expect to see in the race, but Michael is the opposite, Michael's race pace is perhaps the reason why his qualifying is slightly less, he has missed out on beating Nico in some sessions by thousanths of a second, not tenths! So he's been very close at times, and then backed up with stronger race pace, so i think Nicol's qualifying , or whatever he's doing with the car/driving with the car/set up is actually making him far more stronger sometimes in qualifying, but the opposite effect is, race pace is cut. This reminds me alot of Jarno Trulli a bit, but I would rate Rosberg higher then trulli, but the pattern I'm seeing is similar this year especially.

If you look at Spain/Monaco, in Spain Michael decided to not even run in Q3-smart move, although he outqualified Nico there in 2010, and Monaco in 2010/2011 Schumacher looked strong all weekend, his DNF at Monaco was a shame, while Rosberg didn't do much in comparison.

With DRS/Kiers, Michael has every right to concentrate on race set up, drivers can now overtake, qualifying means less, but I also do think Nico is actually flattering his race day expectations on everyone by always qualifying higher and losing positions alot of the time, it's not what the car should do, and maybe they need to look into that, and Michael might actually start to outqualify him more, not that it's the most important thing with these rules, but we've seen qualifying and race pace ratio is not always on song, if one is better, the other is slightly less, and that's what were seeing with Michael and Nico.


Maybe it's the set up and limited options they have to change things after qualifying, that not all f1 cars can be flexiable from qualifying to race, maybe Nico is risking race pace a bit for qualifying, because he knows Michael is going to attack race set up anyway, who knows, maybe it's the way they drive the car, the tyres, there's so many factors, on some tracks Nico will be strong all weekend regardness like at China/Valencia this year, clearly strong all sessions, but other weekends, inconsistent, China/Valencia are of alot of slow/tricky/micky mouse corners, this is Rosberg's advantage, as Michael can only try to equal slow corner pace, but faster corners is where Michael gets his laptimes in.


The overall picture is a mess of many sessions, but I can see the pattern developing, last year, I had doubts, but with f duct not working at times last year, and mercedes having general problems, it wasn't the ideal year for a returning driver like Michael, this year everything is in place more to learn, the only thing missing is a faster car ,and or more rain lol, and the FIA allowing drivers to go for it, Canada 2011 should of been a Mercedes 2nd place at least for Michael, and who knows maybe a win, vettel spun later in the race-less rain, for me that was the what if situation of the year, Michael Schumacher back on the attack in the rain, showing that Spa 98/95/97 grit, FIA let the track dry out too much, which isn't what teams like mercedes and drivers like MS need in the rain, they let it dry out so much, that wet tyres didn't need to be brought to the race lol That was horriable, I think clearly a 2nd place was robbed from Michael there, and the opportunity to keep Vettel honest at the end.


We need more raiin races, Michael was up for it at the nurburgring, it didn't come.

Edited by SeanValen, 26 July 2011 - 11:53.


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#11602 Group B

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:50

I'd like to know what people think and no I am NOT trying to stir things up.....far be it from me to do that ;), but my question or questions is/are this, is Schumacher capable still of ringing everything he can out of the car, overcoming it deficiencies and winning with it? Can he do with the Mercedes what he did with the Ferrari in 1996? I'm not trying to compare eras and we all know that technology has gained leaps and bounds over the years, but does he have the capabilities to cope with it and win? Honestly, I've seen flashes of the old MS and personally I do think he can do it, yet I was just wondering what everyone else thought on this without it hopefully turning into one giant slagging match.......

Is he as quick/consistent as in 1996? No. Is he quick/consistent enough to merit his seat? Recent race pace says cleary Yes.



#11603 Johnrambo

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 12:44

Is he as quick/consistent as in 1996? No. Is he quick/consistent enough to merit his seat? Recent race pace says cleary Yes.


MS is flattered being teamed with Nico Boutsen.

#11604 jav

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 12:59

MS is flattered being teamed with Nico Boutsen.


MS has lost something relative to his prime. I still think he's capable of extracting 100% out of the car. I think he's smarter than Nico and focuses his setup efforts towards heavier race weights and setups and Nico probably focuses more on light race weights and setups. This would explain the qualifying and lap one differences between them.

I don't believe MS (or Nico) can haul this car onto the podium on race craft alone....the car isn't good enough for that. If there's some attrition and luck, maybe- but not on pure merit. That is less an indictment of the drivers than the car in my view.

I believe MS knows this and takes greater risks than he would otherwise need to becuase that's the only way to advance this car beyond it's capabilies... but that's his only play with these cards. From there, we get what we see- the risks haven't always panned out and the reliable approach is effective at picking up crumbs.

#11605 JensonWDC

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 14:12

MS is flattered being teamed with Nico Boutsen.


Rather Nico Vettel. Really quick on saturdays but once there waits a tough job on sunday with overtaking, not running in clean air ... they fade.

#11606 arknor

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 16:37

I'd like to know what people think and no I am NOT trying to stir things up.....far be it from me to do that ;), but my question or questions is/are this, is Schumacher capable still of ringing everything he can out of the car, overcoming it deficiencies and winning with it?

i doubt anyone can these days when the tyres and fuel dont reward flat out driving for the whole race. also back in the day cars would suit some circuits and not others these days the top 3 teams are fast everywhere and people would retire, i think the reason we se less retirements is due to the fact the cars arent really put under stress for a full race they just drive around in fuel and tyre saving mode for so long


#11607 Group B

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 16:43

MS is flattered being teamed with Nico Boutsen.

:yawnface:

#11608 blager

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:10

If he could cut out the rookie mistakes...
Michael Schumacher onboard start

#11609 Diablobb81

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:17

Awesome move on Petrov.

#11610 Rikhart

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:46

If he could cut out the rookie mistakes...
Michael Schumacher onboard start


That´s absolutely top notch driving, can´t say how anyone keeps downplaying what he is doing, at his age. He is now much faster than his highly rated team mate every single race, too.

#11611 Scotracer

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:20

If he could cut out the rookie mistakes...
Michael Schumacher onboard start


Utterly fantastic stuff. He is the most aggressive driver from the start these days. Pity about his qualifying, though.

#11612 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:29

the move on petrov was great. it took button half a race to find a way (with DRS)

#11613 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:46

If he could cut out the rookie mistakes...
Michael Schumacher onboard start


What's your problem with Schumacher?

#11614 baddog

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 12:36

What's your problem with Schumacher?

I think his point (and its a good one) is that if he can drive like THAT, and not ruin it with silly mistakes and mad qualies then he would be bloody amazing!

#11615 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 13:02

My problem is that I do not know how to determine what is a "mistake". These individuals do strive to drive on the limit, and it is conceiveable, that they may cross that limit and slide, go off, etc. To me it's part of racing, and hardly a mistake, especially when equipment reacts unpredictably. Take your commuter driving - you know what is your breaking zone for the car you drive daily; you "know" that vehicle, yet one day you bump into someone, because brakes let you down, or a road condition changed. Was that a mistake on your part? Maybe, but maybe not, because these issues are part of risk we take as soon as wheels start rolling.

I can imagine that Schumacher has the same issues with his car. In Ferrari his horse managed to stop in pits with millimeter accuracy. His mind and bulk of metal was one. Today what I see is a driver who aims at apex, and car has mind on its own; there is no symbiotic relationship - as yet, and it might never be in next 1.5 seasons. Point is, is it his mistake, or symptoms of vehicle which is not up to his level of performance he expects of it?

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 13:05.


#11616 blager

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 13:07

I think his point (and its a good one) is that if he can drive like THAT, and not ruin it with silly mistakes and mad qualies then he would be bloody amazing!

Exactly!
Watching this clip should make any fan of Schumacher very happy but highly frustrated. This is what he is capable of but silly mistakes have not been truly showing the results his starts, skill and race pace deserve.
They HAVE been rookie mistakes he shouldn't be making. His after race interview clearly showed he knew that as well.
The strange thing about his starts is that I don't remember him being famed for them in his early career. It was the complete opposite!

#11617 baddog

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 13:09

My problem is that I do not know how to determine what is a "mistake". These individuals do strive to drive on the limit, and it is conceiveable, that they may cross that limit and slide, go off, etc. To me it's part of racing, and hardly a mistake, especially when equipment reacts unpredictably. Take your commuter driving - you know what is your breaking zone for the car you drive daily; you "know" that vehicle, yet one day you bump into someone, because brakes let you down, or a road condition changed. Was that a mistake on your part? Maybe, but maybe not, because these issues are part of risk we take as soon as wheels start rolling.

I can imagine that Schumacher has the same issues with his car. In Ferrari his horse managed to stop in pits with millimeter accuracy. His mind and bulk of metal was one. Today what I see is a driver who aims at apex, and car has mind on its own; there is no symbiotic relationship - as yet, and it might never be in next 1.5 seasons. Point is, is it his mistake, or symptoms of vehicle which is not up to his level of performance he expects of it?

The mistakes I am talking about are things like going too wide before breaking for the chicane and spinning in germany, or misjudging the first DRS braking and hitting another car the race before.

In general driving accuracy he seems to have made huge strides. In race form its all looking very good.

#11618 blager

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 13:20

My problem is that I do not know how to determine what is a "mistake". These individuals do strive to drive on the limit, and it is conceiveable, that they may cross that limit and slide, go off, etc. To me it's part of racing, and hardly a mistake, especially when equipment reacts unpredictably. Take your commuter driving - you know what is your breaking zone for the car you drive daily; you "know" that vehicle, yet one day you bump into someone, because brakes let you down, or a road condition changed. Was that a mistake on your part? Maybe, but maybe not, because these issues are part of risk we take as soon as wheels start rolling.

I can imagine that Schumacher has the same issues with his car. In Ferrari his horse managed to stop in pits with millimeter accuracy. His mind and bulk of metal was one. Today what I see is a driver who aims at apex, and car has mind on its own; there is no symbiotic relationship - as yet, and it might never be in next 1.5 seasons. Point is, is it his mistake, or symptoms of vehicle which is not up to his level of performance he expects of it?

My take on it is this.
If Michael said he made a mistake then it was HIS mistake.
That is all we can go on unless the team corrects it themselves afterwards.
In the last race it was obviously not a problem with the car he just drove a little too wide and hit the wet AstroTurf.
The frustration for him must surely come from the fact that he does these mistakes. In this case finishing only finishes 10 seconds behind Nico at this GP. Sets a faster lap than Nico. Has better race pace overall.
But Nico beat him with steady smart driving and most importantly no mistakes!


#11619 ramad

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 13:43

My problem is that I do not know how to determine what is a "mistake". These individuals do strive to drive on the limit, and it is conceiveable, that they may cross that limit and slide, go off, etc. To me it's part of racing, and hardly a mistake, especially when equipment reacts unpredictably. Take your commuter driving - you know what is your breaking zone for the car you drive daily; you "know" that vehicle, yet one day you bump into someone, because brakes let you down, or a road condition changed. Was that a mistake on your part? Maybe, but maybe not, because these issues are part of risk we take as soon as wheels start rolling.

I can imagine that Schumacher has the same issues with his car. In Ferrari his horse managed to stop in pits with millimeter accuracy. His mind and bulk of metal was one. Today what I see is a driver who aims at apex, and car has mind on its own; there is no symbiotic relationship - as yet, and it might never be in next 1.5 seasons. Point is, is it his mistake, or symptoms of vehicle which is not up to his level of performance he expects of it?

:up: :up:

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#11620 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 13:59

My take on it is this.
If Michael said he made a mistake then it was HIS mistake.
That is all we can go on unless the team corrects it themselves afterwards.
In the last race it was obviously not a problem with the car he just drove a little too wide and hit the wet AstroTurf.
The frustration for him must surely come from the fact that he does these mistakes. In this case finishing only finishes 10 seconds behind Nico at this GP. Sets a faster lap than Nico. Has better race pace overall.
But Nico beat him with steady smart driving and most importantly no mistakes!


Michael of today next to being a driver is also a politician, who accepts his seniority "I should know better what that greenhorn will do"; he is also probably tired of going through the same nonsence as exposure early in his career, and it doesn't matter what facts are or were. If the gallery decides its his fault, its his fault then, and we do not need forensics. Thought process (in broadcast booths) replaces gathering of facts. I am not on board with it, and neither is probably he, but that's life we live as one happy family, and if he thinks this is how he can enjoy he return, it's fine with me too.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 14:00.


#11621 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 14:03

The mistakes I am talking about are things like going too wide before breaking for the chicane and spinning in germany, or misjudging the first DRS braking and hitting another car the race before.

In general driving accuracy he seems to have made huge strides. In race form its all looking very good.


Sure he misjudged one or two situtions, and I am not exactly certain why, but I am also noticing that they all do; no exceptions.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 14:03.


#11622 salamin

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 14:08

luring Petrov to the inside, then passing him from outside is epic

#11623 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 14:57

luring Petrov to the inside, then passing him from outside is epic


..and old trick thousand times repeated and possible if the following car has enough speed, and can stay glued to the exhaust. It merely shows that you can block (legit) faster car that is following only so many times before you are haunted into late braking into nearest turn where you cannot recover and come back, and that's precisely what Schumacher was counting on. Petrov did carry too much speed outwardly to block him again. Old fox did not forget his favorite passing move.

#11624 Frans

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:46

I simply think Petrov didn't move enough to the right then and there... He could easily go more to the right, bloking Michael completely. But he's still a beginner, he'll learn.

#11625 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:47

..and old trick thousand times repeated and possible if the following car has enough speed, and can stay glued to the exhaust. It merely shows that you can block (legit) faster car that is following only so many times before you are haunted into late braking into nearest turn where you cannot recover and come back, and that's precisely what Schumacher was counting on. Petrov did carry too much speed outwardly to block him again. Old fox did not forget his favorite passing move.

maybe he should get jos the lost to mentor him

#11626 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:51

I simply think Petrov didn't move enough to the right then and there... He could easily go more to the right, bloking Michael completely. But he's still a beginner, he'll learn.


He might be new to F1, but he is hardly a beginner, and racecraft like that is something he should be well practised in from the lower series.

#11627 TURU

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:56

He might be new to F1, but he is hardly a beginner, and racecraft like that is something he should be well practised in from the lower series.


You mean lower series like Lada racing on ice ?? :p In terms of experience in single-seaters, Petrov is the least experienced driver out there.

It was a great overtaking manoeuvre from Michael. BTW, I thought Petrov's defensive driving was very impressive in that race. Michael's move was just too good.

Edited by TURU, 27 July 2011 - 15:57.


#11628 Poep

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:12

From the oboard, can we conclude that this car does not alow Michael drive the way he wants?

I mean hearing the team radio in FP that he should not trial brake, and seeing now that he does not use the brake and throttle simultaniously (like he did for instance in Australia this year).

Is he being robbed of using his driving style?

#11629 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:16

You mean lower series like Lada racing on ice ?? :p In terms of experience in single-seaters, Petrov is the least experienced driver out there.

It was a great overtaking manoeuvre from Michael. BTW, I thought Petrov's defensive driving was very impressive in that race. Michael's move was just too good.


Well I was thinking more like Formula Renault, Euroseries and GP2. He may not be the most experienced, but no one who makes it to F1 is a beginner.

#11630 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:17

Car is simply not there; Michael had perfect machine beneath him at Ferrari, and that beast reacted he wanted. Now I think he is compromising his style, and it's not always a pretty picture at that.

#11631 spacekid

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:25

I really enjoyed that video, thanks for posting :up:

Yup he's certainly got some skills left in the bag. Its just a case of getting it all together for a few consecutive races.

#11632 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:25

Car is simply not there; Michael had perfect machine beneath him at Ferrari, and that beast reacted he wanted. Now I think he is compromising his style, and it's not always a pretty picture at that.


He was always being praised for being able to drive around a cars problems, so is this a skill he has now lost?

#11633 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:28

You mean lower series like Lada racing on ice ?? :p In terms of experience in single-seaters, Petrov is the least experienced driver out there.

It was a great overtaking manoeuvre from Michael. BTW, I thought Petrov's defensive driving was very impressive in that race. Michael's move was just too good.

I noticed in the video MS used kers just as he crossed the start finish line (when it became available).
I think that's not an area to use your kers usually (the probably use it at lower speeds when they need good traction) but here he used it as an attack tool and it worked.

#11634 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 17:15

He was always being praised for being able to drive around a cars problems, so is this a skill he has now lost?

i think its more of the technology and aero advancements mean that aero grip is worth almost nothing and its not possible to outdrive a car anymore

#11635 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 17:19

i think its more of the technology and aero advancements mean that aero grip is worth almost nothing and its not possible to outdrive a car anymore


Same as it has ever been then.

#11636 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 17:38

Same as it has ever been then.

monster engines , wider cars , manual gears and more simpler aero and you would see some drivers make more of a difference, as aero becomes more and more of a factor a drivers skill becomes less needed imo, cars become easier to drive flat out etc

aero grip is boring and predictable , mechanical grip isnt and people can show how big their balls are

Edited by arknor, 27 July 2011 - 17:40.


#11637 Number62

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 18:06

monster engines , wider cars , manual gears and more simpler aero and you would see some drivers make more of a difference, as aero becomes more and more of a factor a drivers skill becomes less needed imo, cars become easier to drive flat out etc

aero grip is boring and predictable , mechanical grip isnt and people can show how big their balls are


No such thing as aero grip.

There's only grip (between tyres and tarmac). More grip or less grip.

#11638 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 18:49

He was always being praised for being able to drive around a cars problems, so is this a skill he has now lost?

I am with Michael since his Benneton days, but while it was said about him that he can get out of the car all what it has and a marging more, yet not even him can transfer a dog into a true blue contender. Put it differently, if the vehicle characteristics stay stable, he could probably work with it, but chasing light flick on the wall is not his forte, as we are witnessing. Having one set up in the in one FP, and other one in next FP must drive him crazy, I would guess.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 18:50.


#11639 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 19:02

I am with Michael since his Benneton days, but while it was said about him that he can get out of the car all what it has and a marging more, yet not even him can transfer a dog into a true blue contender. Put it differently, if the vehicle characteristics stay stable, he could probably work with it, but chasing light flick on the wall is not his forte, as we are witnessing. Having one set up in the in one FP, and other one in next FP must drive him crazy, I would guess.


Sounds like excuses to me.

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#11640 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 19:04

monster engines , wider cars , manual gears and more simpler aero and you would see some drivers make more of a difference, as aero becomes more and more of a factor a drivers skill becomes less needed imo, cars become easier to drive flat out etc

aero grip is boring and predictable , mechanical grip isnt and people can show how big their balls are


So are you saying he has a lack of skill or his balls are not big enough?

#11641 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 19:51

Sounds like excuses to me.

I am afraid that I am not comprehending what exactly you terming as "excuses", unless you wish to state, that his car is perfect, and Schumacher is simply an amateur who should never drive an F1 car, because he has no clue what he is doing.

#11642 jj2728

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:00

Car is simply not there; Michael had perfect machine beneath him at Ferrari, and that beast reacted he wanted.


The Ferrari of 1996 was far from perfect.

#11643 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:05

I am afraid that I am not comprehending what exactly you terming as "excuses", unless you wish to state, that his car is perfect, and Schumacher is simply an amateur who should never drive an F1 car, because he has no clue what he is doing.


The car is far from perfect, but Rosberg is getting more out of it. If MS cannot beat then the problem is with MS not the car. My personal opinion is that MS is way past his best, but many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..

#11644 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:07

No such thing as aero grip.

There's only grip (between tyres and tarmac). More grip or less grip.

sure there is grip thats mechanical comes from wide tyres , wide axels , suspension etc and its a finite amount cars will slide , power can be used to straighten them out or to increase the grip in a corner etc.

aero grip is pretty much makign the car heavier and s ticking it to the surface through pure force imo they are different things, one goads everyone into the same flat out through eua rouge etc the other leaves margin for error and lets a drivers courage and car control skill play a larger factor in laptime.

go back even 15 years the cars look alive they move about alot when a driver is pushing , modern cars have to much aero grip they they look as if they are suoer glued to the tarmac

Edited by arknor, 27 July 2011 - 20:09.


#11645 Anssi

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:32

many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..


It's a bit like when driver A was at Ferrari and driver B in the same team at the same time seemed to do very well, driver B was actually shit. But now that driver C is at Ferrari, driver B is excellent! :rotfl:

I perhaps don't dislike anything more than dishonesty, and some people in these kind of discussions do ring that bell often and loud. I respect people who can stay more consistent and not turn with the wind.


#11646 Scotracer

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:37

sure there is grip thats mechanical comes from wide tyres , wide axels , suspension etc and its a finite amount cars will slide , power can be used to straighten them out or to increase the grip in a corner etc.

aero grip is pretty much makign the car heavier and s ticking it to the surface through pure force imo they are different things, one goads everyone into the same flat out through eua rouge etc the other leaves margin for error and lets a drivers courage and car control skill play a larger factor in laptime.

go back even 15 years the cars look alive they move about alot when a driver is pushing , modern cars have to much aero grip they they look as if they are suoer glued to the tarmac


The aerodynamic forces still must go through the suspension and tyre. The car must be balanced. Mechanical Grip generally refers to how good the car is when there's no aero load applied. Things do change as you up the speed range, depending on how good your aerodynamicists are.

#11647 sharo

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:46

Sounds like excuses to me.

And like trolling to me ...

#11648 jav

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 21:04

The car is far from perfect, but Rosberg is getting more out of it. If MS cannot beat then the problem is with MS not the car. My personal opinion is that MS is way past his best, but many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..


Clatter-

some of what you say is technically correct- NR is getting better results out of an imperfect car. Last year, and for the begining of this year, I would agree that MS was NOT the equal of NR. However- at this point I feel the race results tell an incomplete story and I would argue that MS is now capable of getting more out of the car during the race than Nico is.

If you look at the last 2 races, while Nico did finish ahead of MS, remove a single incident or mistake from MS drive and he easily beats Nico. In silverstone, without the stop and go penalty - even leaving the contact- he would have beat Nico. In Germany- eliminate the spin- and he would have beat Nico.

Now - before you say it- Yes I conceded- I can't be sure that he would have finished "ahead" of Nico- but I am sure that he finshed closer behind Nico than the time he lost due to both incidents which suggest he drove the same distance in less time- in like equipment- (had it not been for the incidents).

Also- it's fair to say the incidents have to be factored in because caused or didn't avoid them. True enough BUT what I see now, which I haven't seen in quite some time, is MS pushing things. Nico is taking the conservative and safe route and getting more points (crumbs) and is seemingly content to score 6th place finishes. Schumi seems like he's made up his mind that 6th isn't good enough and he's either trying for better, or accepting the consequences of trying. That may mean that he won't beat Rosberg on points but Rosberg won't be in contention for any prizes at the rate he's going. At least Schumi's drives are exciting, and curageous and risky... but so far, he's had the best finish of the season and I would say if he's actually getting more out the car during the race than Nico is. The results don't show it- but I believe this to be true.

#11649 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 21:17

Clatter-

some of what you say is technically correct- NR is getting better results out of an imperfect car. Last year, and for the begining of this year, I would agree that MS was NOT the equal of NR. However- at this point I feel the race results tell an incomplete story and I would argue that MS is now capable of getting more out of the car during the race than Nico is.

If you look at the last 2 races, while Nico did finish ahead of MS, remove a single incident or mistake from MS drive and he easily beats Nico. In silverstone, without the stop and go penalty - even leaving the contact- he would have beat Nico. In Germany- eliminate the spin- and he would have beat Nico.

Now - before you say it- Yes I conceded- I can't be sure that he would have finished "ahead" of Nico- but I am sure that he finshed closer behind Nico than the time he lost due to both incidents which suggest he drove the same distance in less time- in like equipment- (had it not been for the incidents).

Also- it's fair to say the incidents have to be factored in because caused or didn't avoid them. True enough BUT what I see now, which I haven't seen in quite some time, is MS pushing things. Nico is taking the conservative and safe route and getting more points (crumbs) and is seemingly content to score 6th place finishes. Schumi seems like he's made up his mind that 6th isn't good enough and he's either trying for better, or accepting the consequences of trying. That may mean that he won't beat Rosberg on points but Rosberg won't be in contention for any prizes at the rate he's going. At least Schumi's drives are exciting, and curageous and risky... but so far, he's had the best finish of the season and I would say if he's actually getting more out the car during the race than Nico is. The results don't show it- but I believe this to be true.


That's fair enough, the results don't always tell the whole story, but I still think NR is doing better overall. I said a long time ago (probably last season now) that I thought MS was past his best and that I don't expect him to regain his form of old, he will have the occasional good race where he comes out ahead, but overall I expect him to be behind. So far I've really not seen anything to change my mind.


#11650 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 22:18

The car is far from perfect, but Rosberg is getting more out of it. If MS cannot beat then the problem is with MS not the car. My personal opinion is that MS is way past his best, but many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..

I read your post several times over, and I am not sure that I understand what you are alleging. Notwithstanding this seatback, let me attempt to answer this way - I am not making any excuses for Schumacher, because I would not know which specific action should be disputed and defended. I do however giving him all the time - quite silently - for he needs to make best of where he is and what resources he has, and I believe he will make best of it. I have no idea how he feels or what he is saying to his wife in privacy of his home, but I see his struggle with the equipment which has nothing to do with age; at least I do not think so.


Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 22:20.