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Michael Schumacher (merged)


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#11601 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 13:59

My take on it is this.
If Michael said he made a mistake then it was HIS mistake.
That is all we can go on unless the team corrects it themselves afterwards.
In the last race it was obviously not a problem with the car he just drove a little too wide and hit the wet AstroTurf.
The frustration for him must surely come from the fact that he does these mistakes. In this case finishing only finishes 10 seconds behind Nico at this GP. Sets a faster lap than Nico. Has better race pace overall.
But Nico beat him with steady smart driving and most importantly no mistakes!


Michael of today next to being a driver is also a politician, who accepts his seniority "I should know better what that greenhorn will do"; he is also probably tired of going through the same nonsence as exposure early in his career, and it doesn't matter what facts are or were. If the gallery decides its his fault, its his fault then, and we do not need forensics. Thought process (in broadcast booths) replaces gathering of facts. I am not on board with it, and neither is probably he, but that's life we live as one happy family, and if he thinks this is how he can enjoy he return, it's fine with me too.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 14:00.


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#11602 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 14:03

The mistakes I am talking about are things like going too wide before breaking for the chicane and spinning in germany, or misjudging the first DRS braking and hitting another car the race before.

In general driving accuracy he seems to have made huge strides. In race form its all looking very good.


Sure he misjudged one or two situtions, and I am not exactly certain why, but I am also noticing that they all do; no exceptions.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 14:03.


#11603 salamin

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 14:08

luring Petrov to the inside, then passing him from outside is epic

#11604 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 14:57

luring Petrov to the inside, then passing him from outside is epic


..and old trick thousand times repeated and possible if the following car has enough speed, and can stay glued to the exhaust. It merely shows that you can block (legit) faster car that is following only so many times before you are haunted into late braking into nearest turn where you cannot recover and come back, and that's precisely what Schumacher was counting on. Petrov did carry too much speed outwardly to block him again. Old fox did not forget his favorite passing move.

#11605 Frans

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:46

I simply think Petrov didn't move enough to the right then and there... He could easily go more to the right, bloking Michael completely. But he's still a beginner, he'll learn.

#11606 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:47

..and old trick thousand times repeated and possible if the following car has enough speed, and can stay glued to the exhaust. It merely shows that you can block (legit) faster car that is following only so many times before you are haunted into late braking into nearest turn where you cannot recover and come back, and that's precisely what Schumacher was counting on. Petrov did carry too much speed outwardly to block him again. Old fox did not forget his favorite passing move.

maybe he should get jos the lost to mentor him

#11607 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:51

I simply think Petrov didn't move enough to the right then and there... He could easily go more to the right, bloking Michael completely. But he's still a beginner, he'll learn.


He might be new to F1, but he is hardly a beginner, and racecraft like that is something he should be well practised in from the lower series.

#11608 TURU

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 15:56

He might be new to F1, but he is hardly a beginner, and racecraft like that is something he should be well practised in from the lower series.


You mean lower series like Lada racing on ice ?? :p In terms of experience in single-seaters, Petrov is the least experienced driver out there.

It was a great overtaking manoeuvre from Michael. BTW, I thought Petrov's defensive driving was very impressive in that race. Michael's move was just too good.

Edited by TURU, 27 July 2011 - 15:57.


#11609 Poep

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:12

From the oboard, can we conclude that this car does not alow Michael drive the way he wants?

I mean hearing the team radio in FP that he should not trial brake, and seeing now that he does not use the brake and throttle simultaniously (like he did for instance in Australia this year).

Is he being robbed of using his driving style?

#11610 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:16

You mean lower series like Lada racing on ice ?? :p In terms of experience in single-seaters, Petrov is the least experienced driver out there.

It was a great overtaking manoeuvre from Michael. BTW, I thought Petrov's defensive driving was very impressive in that race. Michael's move was just too good.


Well I was thinking more like Formula Renault, Euroseries and GP2. He may not be the most experienced, but no one who makes it to F1 is a beginner.

#11611 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:17

Car is simply not there; Michael had perfect machine beneath him at Ferrari, and that beast reacted he wanted. Now I think he is compromising his style, and it's not always a pretty picture at that.

#11612 spacekid

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:25

I really enjoyed that video, thanks for posting :up:

Yup he's certainly got some skills left in the bag. Its just a case of getting it all together for a few consecutive races.

#11613 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:25

Car is simply not there; Michael had perfect machine beneath him at Ferrari, and that beast reacted he wanted. Now I think he is compromising his style, and it's not always a pretty picture at that.


He was always being praised for being able to drive around a cars problems, so is this a skill he has now lost?

#11614 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:28

You mean lower series like Lada racing on ice ?? :p In terms of experience in single-seaters, Petrov is the least experienced driver out there.

It was a great overtaking manoeuvre from Michael. BTW, I thought Petrov's defensive driving was very impressive in that race. Michael's move was just too good.

I noticed in the video MS used kers just as he crossed the start finish line (when it became available).
I think that's not an area to use your kers usually (the probably use it at lower speeds when they need good traction) but here he used it as an attack tool and it worked.

#11615 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 17:15

He was always being praised for being able to drive around a cars problems, so is this a skill he has now lost?

i think its more of the technology and aero advancements mean that aero grip is worth almost nothing and its not possible to outdrive a car anymore

#11616 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 17:19

i think its more of the technology and aero advancements mean that aero grip is worth almost nothing and its not possible to outdrive a car anymore


Same as it has ever been then.

#11617 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 17:38

Same as it has ever been then.

monster engines , wider cars , manual gears and more simpler aero and you would see some drivers make more of a difference, as aero becomes more and more of a factor a drivers skill becomes less needed imo, cars become easier to drive flat out etc

aero grip is boring and predictable , mechanical grip isnt and people can show how big their balls are

Edited by arknor, 27 July 2011 - 17:40.


#11618 Number62

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 18:06

monster engines , wider cars , manual gears and more simpler aero and you would see some drivers make more of a difference, as aero becomes more and more of a factor a drivers skill becomes less needed imo, cars become easier to drive flat out etc

aero grip is boring and predictable , mechanical grip isnt and people can show how big their balls are


No such thing as aero grip.

There's only grip (between tyres and tarmac). More grip or less grip.

#11619 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 18:49

He was always being praised for being able to drive around a cars problems, so is this a skill he has now lost?

I am with Michael since his Benneton days, but while it was said about him that he can get out of the car all what it has and a marging more, yet not even him can transfer a dog into a true blue contender. Put it differently, if the vehicle characteristics stay stable, he could probably work with it, but chasing light flick on the wall is not his forte, as we are witnessing. Having one set up in the in one FP, and other one in next FP must drive him crazy, I would guess.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 18:50.


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#11620 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 19:02

I am with Michael since his Benneton days, but while it was said about him that he can get out of the car all what it has and a marging more, yet not even him can transfer a dog into a true blue contender. Put it differently, if the vehicle characteristics stay stable, he could probably work with it, but chasing light flick on the wall is not his forte, as we are witnessing. Having one set up in the in one FP, and other one in next FP must drive him crazy, I would guess.


Sounds like excuses to me.

#11621 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 19:04

monster engines , wider cars , manual gears and more simpler aero and you would see some drivers make more of a difference, as aero becomes more and more of a factor a drivers skill becomes less needed imo, cars become easier to drive flat out etc

aero grip is boring and predictable , mechanical grip isnt and people can show how big their balls are


So are you saying he has a lack of skill or his balls are not big enough?

#11622 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 19:51

Sounds like excuses to me.

I am afraid that I am not comprehending what exactly you terming as "excuses", unless you wish to state, that his car is perfect, and Schumacher is simply an amateur who should never drive an F1 car, because he has no clue what he is doing.

#11623 jj2728

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:00

Car is simply not there; Michael had perfect machine beneath him at Ferrari, and that beast reacted he wanted.


The Ferrari of 1996 was far from perfect.

#11624 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:05

I am afraid that I am not comprehending what exactly you terming as "excuses", unless you wish to state, that his car is perfect, and Schumacher is simply an amateur who should never drive an F1 car, because he has no clue what he is doing.


The car is far from perfect, but Rosberg is getting more out of it. If MS cannot beat then the problem is with MS not the car. My personal opinion is that MS is way past his best, but many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..

#11625 arknor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:07

No such thing as aero grip.

There's only grip (between tyres and tarmac). More grip or less grip.

sure there is grip thats mechanical comes from wide tyres , wide axels , suspension etc and its a finite amount cars will slide , power can be used to straighten them out or to increase the grip in a corner etc.

aero grip is pretty much makign the car heavier and s ticking it to the surface through pure force imo they are different things, one goads everyone into the same flat out through eua rouge etc the other leaves margin for error and lets a drivers courage and car control skill play a larger factor in laptime.

go back even 15 years the cars look alive they move about alot when a driver is pushing , modern cars have to much aero grip they they look as if they are suoer glued to the tarmac

Edited by arknor, 27 July 2011 - 20:09.


#11626 Anssi

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:32

many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..


It's a bit like when driver A was at Ferrari and driver B in the same team at the same time seemed to do very well, driver B was actually shit. But now that driver C is at Ferrari, driver B is excellent! :rotfl:

I perhaps don't dislike anything more than dishonesty, and some people in these kind of discussions do ring that bell often and loud. I respect people who can stay more consistent and not turn with the wind.


#11627 Scotracer

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:37

sure there is grip thats mechanical comes from wide tyres , wide axels , suspension etc and its a finite amount cars will slide , power can be used to straighten them out or to increase the grip in a corner etc.

aero grip is pretty much makign the car heavier and s ticking it to the surface through pure force imo they are different things, one goads everyone into the same flat out through eua rouge etc the other leaves margin for error and lets a drivers courage and car control skill play a larger factor in laptime.

go back even 15 years the cars look alive they move about alot when a driver is pushing , modern cars have to much aero grip they they look as if they are suoer glued to the tarmac


The aerodynamic forces still must go through the suspension and tyre. The car must be balanced. Mechanical Grip generally refers to how good the car is when there's no aero load applied. Things do change as you up the speed range, depending on how good your aerodynamicists are.

#11628 sharo

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:46

Sounds like excuses to me.

And like trolling to me ...

#11629 jav

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 21:04

The car is far from perfect, but Rosberg is getting more out of it. If MS cannot beat then the problem is with MS not the car. My personal opinion is that MS is way past his best, but many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..


Clatter-

some of what you say is technically correct- NR is getting better results out of an imperfect car. Last year, and for the begining of this year, I would agree that MS was NOT the equal of NR. However- at this point I feel the race results tell an incomplete story and I would argue that MS is now capable of getting more out of the car during the race than Nico is.

If you look at the last 2 races, while Nico did finish ahead of MS, remove a single incident or mistake from MS drive and he easily beats Nico. In silverstone, without the stop and go penalty - even leaving the contact- he would have beat Nico. In Germany- eliminate the spin- and he would have beat Nico.

Now - before you say it- Yes I conceded- I can't be sure that he would have finished "ahead" of Nico- but I am sure that he finshed closer behind Nico than the time he lost due to both incidents which suggest he drove the same distance in less time- in like equipment- (had it not been for the incidents).

Also- it's fair to say the incidents have to be factored in because caused or didn't avoid them. True enough BUT what I see now, which I haven't seen in quite some time, is MS pushing things. Nico is taking the conservative and safe route and getting more points (crumbs) and is seemingly content to score 6th place finishes. Schumi seems like he's made up his mind that 6th isn't good enough and he's either trying for better, or accepting the consequences of trying. That may mean that he won't beat Rosberg on points but Rosberg won't be in contention for any prizes at the rate he's going. At least Schumi's drives are exciting, and curageous and risky... but so far, he's had the best finish of the season and I would say if he's actually getting more out the car during the race than Nico is. The results don't show it- but I believe this to be true.

#11630 Clatter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 21:17

Clatter-

some of what you say is technically correct- NR is getting better results out of an imperfect car. Last year, and for the begining of this year, I would agree that MS was NOT the equal of NR. However- at this point I feel the race results tell an incomplete story and I would argue that MS is now capable of getting more out of the car during the race than Nico is.

If you look at the last 2 races, while Nico did finish ahead of MS, remove a single incident or mistake from MS drive and he easily beats Nico. In silverstone, without the stop and go penalty - even leaving the contact- he would have beat Nico. In Germany- eliminate the spin- and he would have beat Nico.

Now - before you say it- Yes I conceded- I can't be sure that he would have finished "ahead" of Nico- but I am sure that he finshed closer behind Nico than the time he lost due to both incidents which suggest he drove the same distance in less time- in like equipment- (had it not been for the incidents).

Also- it's fair to say the incidents have to be factored in because caused or didn't avoid them. True enough BUT what I see now, which I haven't seen in quite some time, is MS pushing things. Nico is taking the conservative and safe route and getting more points (crumbs) and is seemingly content to score 6th place finishes. Schumi seems like he's made up his mind that 6th isn't good enough and he's either trying for better, or accepting the consequences of trying. That may mean that he won't beat Rosberg on points but Rosberg won't be in contention for any prizes at the rate he's going. At least Schumi's drives are exciting, and curageous and risky... but so far, he's had the best finish of the season and I would say if he's actually getting more out the car during the race than Nico is. The results don't show it- but I believe this to be true.


That's fair enough, the results don't always tell the whole story, but I still think NR is doing better overall. I said a long time ago (probably last season now) that I thought MS was past his best and that I don't expect him to regain his form of old, he will have the occasional good race where he comes out ahead, but overall I expect him to be behind. So far I've really not seen anything to change my mind.


#11631 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 22:18

The car is far from perfect, but Rosberg is getting more out of it. If MS cannot beat then the problem is with MS not the car. My personal opinion is that MS is way past his best, but many are handing out excuses for him that they would never have accepted as valid for other drivers he was paired with and beating..

I read your post several times over, and I am not sure that I understand what you are alleging. Notwithstanding this seatback, let me attempt to answer this way - I am not making any excuses for Schumacher, because I would not know which specific action should be disputed and defended. I do however giving him all the time - quite silently - for he needs to make best of where he is and what resources he has, and I believe he will make best of it. I have no idea how he feels or what he is saying to his wife in privacy of his home, but I see his struggle with the equipment which has nothing to do with age; at least I do not think so.


Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 22:20.


#11632 Sakae

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 22:32

The Ferrari of 1996 was far from perfect.

Oh yes, and did he win with it? He struggled. There were some Williams's cars in his way. Previous (my) point was, if the car is tuned up, and he becomes comfortable with it, he will rise from ashes, and even people like Clatter will be suprised. However even mighty Schumacher cannot turn utter dog into a contender. Nico's races are uninspiring, nothing to go by; I dismiss those.

Edited by Sakae, 27 July 2011 - 22:33.


#11633 jj2728

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 23:48

Oh yes, and did he win with it? He struggled.


He won 3 races with it, Spain, Belgium, Italy.

#11634 Sakae

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:27

He won 3 races with it, Spain, Belgium, Italy.



Yes, of course - I meant he didn't win WDC that year. :D

This and next year he is not going to win WDC either, but he might take it on podium here and there, if possible at all. MGP is too far behind to close gap next year, unless miracle is in the offing, but that I doubt.

#11635 Frans

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:28

One can better compare t he Mercedes GP car with the 2000-2001 Arrows car.
Only... the Arrows did better ... (or the drivers?)

Could be the driver ... could be the car ... Touche.

Edited by Frans, 28 July 2011 - 09:30.


#11636 arknor

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:36

One can better compare t he Mercedes GP car with the 2000-2001 Arrows car.
Only... the Arrows did better ... (or the drivers?)

Could be the driver ... could be the car ... Touche.

so where did the arrows finish in the constructors championship ?

#11637 GerhardBerger

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:48

Oh yes, and did he win with it? He struggled. There were some Williams's cars in his way. Previous (my) point was, if the car is tuned up, and he becomes comfortable with it, he will rise from ashes, and even people like Clatter will be suprised. However even mighty Schumacher cannot turn utter dog into a contender. Nico's races are uninspiring, nothing to go by; I dismiss those.


He ws unable to challenge mainly because the car was so unreliable.

Anyway we saw him mount a serious challenge in 97 with a much inferior car to the Williams'.

#11638 mrmusicman

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 09:58

Oh yes, and did he win with it? He struggled.


He utterly dominated his team mate by a massive margin, won 3 races he shouldnt have and was universally regarded as the driver of the season. Sad to see him struggling so much these days, no speed, no race craft just crashing and being slow and then acting puzzled when its pretty clear the reasons for it. Hopefully he retires at the end of the year.

#11639 Augurk

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 10:02

One can better compare t he Mercedes GP car with the 2000-2001 Arrows car.
Only... the Arrows did better ... (or the drivers?)

Could be the driver ... could be the car ... Touche.

Funny you should compare Jos to Michael. I believe they have driven head to head in the same team during some year.. memory a bit lacking though, could you remind me who got out on top when they did?

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#11640 slaveceru

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 10:30

My last comment about Schumacher driving was at the beginning of this year and I said to my self that I will not comment until I will see some progress in case of his driving skills and in comparison to his team mate. There are still some problems in one quick lap, but races are stronger. So is there still someone who actually believes that Nick would still be a better solution for Mercedes F1 team as several of you have mentioned last year and at the beginning of this year?

#11641 sharo

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 10:37

My last comment about Schumacher driving was at the beginning of this year and I said to my self that I will not comment until I will see some progress in case of his driving skills and in comparison to his team mate. There are still some problems in one quick lap, but races are stronger. So is there still someone who actually believes that Nick would still be a better solution for Mercedes F1 team as several of you have mentioned last year and at the beginning of this year?

I guess as65 does :)

#11642 Frans

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:10

Funny you should compare Jos to Michael. I believe they have driven head to head in the same team during some year.. memory a bit lacking though, could you remind me who got out on top when they did?


Let's not go there. But he and Jos did kart a lot with each other, and I mean for years, and a LOT! And well.... Jos could overtake Schumi backwards in karts, it's no F1, no I know, but same material and stuff, little power compared to F1 of course, but karting is a bit close to racing and is loved by all f1 drivers, once was the only way to come into f1.

#11643 MightyMoose

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:17

...snip (to protect those who have you on ignore).


Arrows 2001 vs Merc 2011.... lol, not even a comparable case in any shape or form.
Thanks for bringing us up to speed on karting though. Now back to reality.

Edited by ForeverF1, 28 July 2011 - 12:30.
If you think a member is trolling, use the report function. Removed "In reality you were just trolling and had no basis for your latest rant against MS."


#11644 Clatter

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:20

Let's not go there. But he and Jos did kart a lot with each other, and I mean for years, and a LOT! And well.... Jos could overtake Schumi backwards in karts, it's no F1, no I know, but same material and stuff, little power compared to F1 of course, but karting is a bit close to racing and is loved by all f1 drivers, once was the only way to come into f1.


That has never been true, but karting is the way the majority of drivers probably start their racing careers, no matter what the series.

#11645 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 14:00

The difference between a young, prime Rosberg and an old, shot, over-the-hill Schumacher is smaller than the difference between Vettel-Webber, Button-Hamilton and Alonso-Massa IMO.

If Rosberg is still rated so highly, then surely Schumacher cannot be too far off either.

#11646 ivand911

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 16:53

Posted Image
What will be this time Michael? Spin or Front Wing?

#11647 Frans

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 16:57

"Night Immer aber Immer ofter..."

"P11"

:drunk:

#11648 Diablobb81

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 17:09

P10 is the new P11. :rolleyes: :p

He should focus more on quali setup like his teamate. :rotfl:

Edited by Diablobb81, 28 July 2011 - 17:10.


#11649 Sakae

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 19:36

Posted Image
What will be this time Michael? Spin or Front Wing?


Give it a rest, Ivan. If you are loosing interest in this driver, than there is Petrov thread or whatever, please.

Edited by Sakae, 28 July 2011 - 19:37.


#11650 ivand911

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 20:05

Give it a rest, Ivan. If you are loosing interest in this driver, than there is Petrov thread or whatever, please.

You can take this things less seriously! ;) If I want to make joke with Michael I would make a joke.

He should focus more on quali setup like his teamate. :rotfl:

No he just need to use the same car configuration. On Saturday they both use very different cars. You can find by Saturday pictures:
Nico:big holes at the back for cooling , no chimneys on the sidepod:
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/254.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/511.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/656.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/251.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/264.jpg
http://www.gpupdate..../181684/#181684

Michael: chimneys on sidepods, gils,three holes for cooling on top of the sidepods.
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/268.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/282.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...y-23jul/357.jpg
This is where Qualy difference came from. Maybe there was inside(car) difference too. For the race they both drive the car in Michael configuration, so I guess they have both different strategy for the Qualy and race. Michael use race configuration in Qualy and Nico used Qualy configuration in Qualy, if he use also race configuration they would be pretty close in Qualy.

"Schumacher only needs good car to win again - Alonso "
http://motorsport.ne...extgen-Auto.com

Edited by ivand911, 28 July 2011 - 20:45.