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#12201 ivand911

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:43

If that were so, how do you explain that with a radical change in Tyres and car between 2010 and 2011, still;

Vettel is better than Webber
Hamilton is better than Button
Alonso is better than Massa
Rosberg is better than Scumacher
Etc.

Lots changed but stayed the same, better drivers prevailing or massive coincidence?

For some reason Nico is less better this year, but this is for different thread. About Lewis and Button not sure, it is still early.


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#12202 puxanando

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:45

I didn't hear Ross to have any problem with MS performance, even the opposite!

:stoned: And if he would have...he never would pronounce it!


#12203 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:47

I didn't hear Ross to have any problem with MS performance, even the opposite! There isn't story here. Team openly admit they failed the drivers(with their bad car). For GP2 testing Michael was 0,4 sec slower than the record there. And they were testing, not going for times. Maybe GP2 car suited Michael better?


So you proved my point, Michael didn't appear to have lost much ability if any. Ross and Michael must have been mightily surprised at how well rosberg as been performing. I think Michael coming to the team raised his game tenfold. The team as not performed and I'm sure Michael didn't expect this, but that's the risk you take. FairPlay to the man, he had the guts to risk his reputation, i don't think Senna or Prost would have done the same. I'm not buying the new relaxed Michael Schumacher though as I feel inside he is devastated

#12204 ivand911

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:48

:stoned: And if he would have...he never would pronounce it!

So, now we go in fantasy world? And we will read Ross thoughts?


#12205 ivand911

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:50

So you proved my point, Michael didn't appear to have lost much ability if any. Ross and Michael must have been mightily surprised at how well rosberg as been performing. I think Michael coming to the team raised his game tenfold. The team as not performed and I'm sure Michael didn't expect this, but that's the risk you take. FairPlay to the man, he had the guts to risk his reputation, i don't think Senna or Prost would have done the same. I'm not buying the new relaxed Michael Schumacher though as I feel inside he is devastated

They usually are. The bastards billionaires. :rotfl: I say let first the season to end, before making big decisions?


#12206 outofbounds

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:51

So, now we go in fantasy world? And we will read Ross thoughts?


I think he's right. After all the years and success together, do you really think Brawn would come out to the press and say Schumacher's lost it?

#12207 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:52

If that were so, how do you explain that with a radical change in Tyres and car between 2010 and 2011, still;

Vettel is better than Webber


You might need to have a second look at Webber's performance this year compared to last year.


#12208 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:52

That data would not have told him a single thing unless Rosberg drove the same car on the same day because there was no comparision to judge Michaels speed, plus even if there was it would have been reasonable to assume he just rusty after 3 years away. Ross took sa chance and thought Michael would be as good as before but he was wrong.



The fact that Rosberg, a zero time race winner, and someone who has never looked amazing in his whole career is able to thrash a 7 time world champion 91 race winner is all the evidence in the world, for a rational person.


Rosberg is of top quality, go look up his pre F1 career to confirm this, he's no average Joe who lucked his way into F1. You guys always bring up this Michael as 91 wins and Nico as none excuse up, when that doesn't prove a damn thing!

#12209 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:54

You might need to have a second look at Webber's performance this year compared to last year.


Look up lastyears performances up and it still proves vettel is the better of the two as he had more failures and still beat webber

#12210 ivand911

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:54

I think he's right. After all the years and success together, do you really think Brawn would come out to the press and say Schumacher's lost it?

OK, welcome in fantasy world. Lets discuss something that wasn't said? I prefer the opposite.


#12211 schuey100

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:55

So, If he's not upto speed after 2 years... then what the hell is he doing in F1 wasting Mercedes' time & money?? :confused:


Why is this so difficult to grasp for people? The man is one of the greatest drivers in F1 history. He is aging, he is 42 and obviously he's going to have lost some of that natural edge. This is why drivers (and other sportsmen) retire. If you could keep going without losing something then we'd have a lot of 80 year olds running about in professional sport.

However, just because someone is getting to the end of their career doesn't mean they don't still have something to offer. Indeed Michael is keeping up with Nico, not just keeping up but beating him at various times. He could well finish the season ahead of him. So it's not like he's driving around in last place. And even if he were, you and I are not privy to what he offers in terms of value, sponsorship, motivation, etc etc etc.

Who knows, maybe he sits Nico on his lap at the end of every race, gives him a cuddle and a pep talk?

#12212 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 08:58

Look up lastyears performances up and it still proves vettel is the better of the two as he had more failures and still beat webber


Quali and race pace.

And you are utterly wrong about the difference between Michael and Rosberg in pace. Quali is pointless in the Merc. They were 5/100ths apart and they were 1 sec apart. Except the fact that Rosberg is a better qualifier you can not draw any conclusion on the pace difference between them.

#12213 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:03

Quali and race pace.

And you are utterly wrong about the difference between Michael and Rosberg in pace. Quali is pointless in the Merc. They were 5/100ths apart and they were 1 sec apart. Except the fact that Rosberg is a better qualifier you can not draw any conclusion on the pace difference between them.


Qualifying is pointless in the Mercedes? That is a good one lol. The facts are qualifying is part of the race weekend which contributes to the race results, Nicos race weekends have defiantly been more productive than michaels since his comeback

#12214 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:21

Rosberg is of top quality, go look up his pre F1 career to confirm this, he's no average Joe who lucked his way into F1. You guys always bring up this Michael as 91 wins and Nico as none excuse up, when that doesn't prove a damn thing!



You forgot to address my first point about the gp2 test. Most F1 drivers are top quality before F1, like Kovaleinen, but they only prove to be top quality in F1, and Rosberg has never really proven it, so to compare him to the most successful driver of all time is funny.

#12215 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:23

Qualifying is pointless in the Mercedes? That is a good one lol. The facts are qualifying is part of the race weekend which contributes to the race results, Nicos race weekends have defiantly been more productive than michaels since his comeback


Quali difference is pointless. You also should read everything.And no one denies Rosberg has had better results. It's obvious.



Also, someone asked for an example of the dependency between a driver and a car that suits him and the impact it can have.

I'll give you the best example : Fisichella in 09.

#12216 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:27

You forgot to address my first point about the gp2 test. Most F1 drivers are top quality before F1, like Kovaleinen, but they only prove to be top quality in F1, and Rosberg has never really proven it, so to compare him to the most successful driver of all time is funny.


Barring his debut season he has dominated his teammates, Michael Schumacher included. How do you expect him to shine with a car that's never been in the top 3 against the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and co?? Rosberg as proven his quality and if the Mercedes team don't improve I feel he will be a top team driver at some point

#12217 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:30

Quali difference is pointless. You also should read everything.And no one denies Rosberg has had better results. It's obvious.



Also, someone asked for an example of the dependency between a driver and a car that suits him and the impact it can have.

I'll give you the best example : Fisichella in 09.


I can remember lastyear that Nico didn't like the feel of the car, so in cars that neither liked Rosberg still dominated

#12218 ivand911

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:35

I can remember lastyear that Nico didn't like the feel of the car, so in cars that neither liked Rosberg still dominated

So. At the end of the day Michael will still have 91 wins, 7 titles. I prefer to be in his shoes, not Nico's. And please visit MS vs Nico thread. Stop BS here.


#12219 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:36

Barring his debut season he has dominated his teammates


His team mates being a pay driver and a decade long test driver. And that is enough to prove a driver is top quality to you seriously?

Michael Schumacher included. How do you expect him to shine with a car that's never been in the top 3 against the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and co?? Rosberg as proven his quality and if the Mercedes team don't improve I feel he will be a top team driver at some point


True top drivers always shine one way or another. Look what senna, schumacher, alonso did early in their careers in cars no better than rosbergs. He could not even get a single podium in 2009 despite having one of the original double diffuser cars which was seriously fast. A true top driver would have won races in that car.

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#12220 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:38

I can remember lastyear that Nico didn't like the feel of the car, so in cars that neither liked Rosberg still dominated


Moving the goal posts much?

#12221 slaveceru

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:39

If that were so, how do you explain that with a radical change in Tyres and car between 2010 and 2011, still;

Vettel is better than Webber
Hamilton is better than Button
Alonso is better than Massa
Rosberg is better than Scumacher
Etc.

Lots changed but stayed the same, better drivers prevailing or massive coincidence?


I was not talking about which driver is the best I was just replaying to mrmusicman statement that the best drivers easily adopt to new changes in rules and tires and this is not the case anymore because the rules about testing has changed. This is also a major problem for the rookies these days and it is also one of the reasons why older drivers still prevail.
Last year Vettel was not better than Weber at the same time this year. This year Hamilton performance is not so much better than Button in comparison to the last year standing so what is your point really. I agree with you that Alonso is better than Massa and Rosberg is better than Schumacher till now but other two pairs can be discussed.


#12222 Juan Kerr

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:45

Ahh I see this is still going around and around in circles getting nowhere, any of you care to sit back for a minute and think about what you've actually achieved from commenting in this thread ? where does the debate on Michael Schumacher stand now ??
You won't push him into retirement if that's what you want
You wont convince anyone that he's slower that Rosberg if that's what you want
You won't convince anyone that he has lost his skills if that's what you want
You won't get anyone outside of this thread taking any notice of anything you say in this thread if that's what you want
You all need to get out more honestly!

#12223 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:50

I was not talking about which driver is the best I was just replaying to mrmusicman statement that the best drivers easily adopt to new changes in rules and tires and this is not the case anymore because the rules about testing has changed. This is also a major problem for the rookies these days and it is also one of the reasons why older drivers still prevail.
Last year Vettel was not better than Weber at the same time this year. This year Hamilton performance is not so much better than Button in comparison to the last year standing so what is your point really. I agree with you that Alonso is better than Massa and Rosberg is better than Schumacher till now but other two pairs can be discussed.


Nothing has changed from last year. Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Rosberg hold the same domination of their team mates as last year under different tyre regulatons so that proves further more than the better drivers adapt. For 15 years Michael was blistering fast, in different teams, different cars,, tyres, regulations, and now you think that suddenly out of the blue the mercedes does not suit him, and so badly that he is rubbish?

#12224 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:06

So. At the end of the day Michael will still have 91 wins, 7 titles. I prefer to be in his shoes, not Nico's. And please visit MS vs Nico thread. Stop BS here.


If teams were made up of single drivers then it would be easy not to mention Nico, but seeing as though they are teammates and one of the drivers is not performing well enough it is rather difficult to do so

#12225 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:08

His team mates being a pay driver and a decade long test driver. And that is enough to prove a driver is top quality to you seriously?



True top drivers always shine one way or another. Look what senna, schumacher, alonso did early in their careers in cars no better than rosbergs. He could not even get a single podium in 2009 despite having one of the original double diffuser cars which was seriously fast. A true top driver would have won races in that car.


Schumacher as always been in good cars don't worry about that

#12226 slaveceru

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:15

Nothing has changed from last year. Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Rosberg hold the same domination of their team mates as last year under different tyre regulatons so that proves further more than the better drivers adapt. For 15 years Michael was blistering fast, in different teams, different cars,, tyres, regulations, and now you think that suddenly out of the blue the mercedes does not suit him, and so badly that he is rubbish?

You have to check first to say something like that as someone will check for you instead and prove how foolish you really are. Last year standing till Hungary Weber was ahead of Vettel by 10 points. Vettel had 151 and Weber 161 points. So he did not hold domination over Weber last year. Hamilton was better last year in comparison to Button but this is not the case this year we will see at the end. So once again what is your point really?

#12227 sharo

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:17

OT: This is a perfect example how a thread can become ugly thanks to the "efforts" of a single troll.

I see no reason for me to continue here until there is something worth commenting.
But the fact that this and the other thread involving MS are very active even during the summer break speaks volumes about the man and his personality.
Bye.

#12228 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:24

OT: This is a perfect example how a thread can become ugly thanks to the "efforts" of a single troll.

I see no reason for me to continue here until there is something worth commenting.
But the fact that this and the other thread involving MS are very active even during the summer break speaks volumes about the man and his personality.
Bye.


Michael is a 7x world champion, so it is of no surprise that after getting thrashed by a so called journeyman that there's a crazy amount of interest on this subject, mainly because a very few could expect it and even fewer can accept it.

#12229 GerhardBerger

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:28

If teams were made up of single drivers then it would be easy not to mention Nico, but seeing as though they are teammates and one of the drivers is not performing well enough it is rather difficult to do so


Indeed, the 96 Ferrari was amazing wasn't it?

#12230 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:56

You have to check first to say something like that as someone will check for you instead and prove how foolish you really are. Last year standing till Hungary Weber was ahead of Vettel by 10 points. Vettel had 151 and Weber 161 points. So he did not hold domination over Weber last year. Hamilton was better last year in comparison to Button but this is not the case this year we will see at the end. So once again what is your point really?



Sorry I should have been more specific considering your level of analysis does not extend past the points table and fails to consider all the massive points vettel lost last year because of mistakes, and car issues. Fundamentally the speed advantage he had over webber has stayed the same as last year. Hamilton and Button are basically idential to last year in terms of points, and qualifying. So is Roberg and Michael. You could change the rules and regulations 100 times and that would stay the same.

#12231 slaveceru

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:32

Sorry I should have been more specific considering your level of analysis does not extend past the points table and fails to consider all the massive points vettel lost last year because of mistakes, and car issues. Fundamentally the speed advantage he had over webber has stayed the same as last year. Hamilton and Button are basically idential to last year in terms of points, and qualifying. So is Roberg and Michael. You could change the rules and regulations 100 times and that would stay the same.

Once again you are wrong he had only one more retirement in comparison to Webber. Just stick to Schumacher and Rosberg comparison in this pair of drivers you cannot get it wrong all other statements from you are rubbish.

#12232 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:48

Indeed, the 96 Ferrari was amazing wasn't it?


No it wasn't amazing but it was at the front end of the grid was it not, I'd say it was better than the current Mercedes car

#12233 GerhardBerger

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:01

No it wasn't amazing but it was at the front end of the grid was it not, I'd say it was better than the current Mercedes car


I doubt you'll find any articles which describe it as anything like a "good car" as you put it.

Look at where Irvine finished in the championship and look at where he was qualifying in races.

#12234 Number62

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:07

I doubt you'll find any articles which describe it as anything like a "good car" as you put it.

Look at where Irvine finished in the championship and look at where he was qualifying in races.


"The F310 proved to be a front-running car, but without the outright pace or superb reliability which led to the Williams FW18s dominating 1996."

That didn't take long - http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ferrari_F310





#12235 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:09

I doubt you'll find any articles which describe it as anything like a "good car" as you put it.

Look at where Irvine finished in the championship and look at where he was qualifying in races.


It was capable of winning with any good driver, look at how many dnfs Irvine had compared to Schumacher, anyway who is Eddie Irvine??

#12236 FenderJaguar

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:11

It was capable of winning with any good driver, look at how many dnfs Irvine had compared to Schumacher, anyway who is Eddie Irvine??


Maybe not so fast but a guy who makes Lewis Hamilton look like a little baby who is crying for mommy.

#12237 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:16

Maybe not so fast but a guy who makes Lewis Hamilton look like a little baby who is crying for mommy.


Good joke that was :rotfl:

#12238 GerhardBerger

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:34

It was capable of winning with any good driver, look at how many dnfs Irvine had compared to Schumacher, anyway who is Eddie Irvine??


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Eddie_Irvine

There's no evidence to suggest any good driver could win in the 96 Ferrari. Seeing as you're always telling us that you are providing us with "facts", where are the facts that prove this?

#12239 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:43

Once again you are wrong he had only one more retirement in comparison to Webber. Just stick to Schumacher and Rosberg comparison in this pair of drivers you cannot get it wrong all other statements from you are rubbish.


I never said retirements, I said car failures, and thats a big difference which I doubt you will understand. I will help you out. One can be from mistakes, the other bad luck.

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#12240 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:44

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Eddie_Irvine

There's no evidence to suggest any good driver could win in the 96 Ferrari. Seeing as you're always telling us that you are providing us with "facts", where are the facts that prove this?


Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael

#12241 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:47

Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael


Is that one of your facts?

You posts get more and more hilarious. And again, you are the wrong thread for teammste comparison.


I never said retirements, I said car failures, and thats a big difference which I doubt you will understand. I will help you out. One can be from mistakes, the other bad luck.


Just look at the results in qualifying.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 12:50.


#12242 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:52

Is that one of your facts?

You posts get more and more hilarious. And again, you are the wrong thread for teammste comparison.




Just look at the results in qualifying.


Like you schumi lovers keep saying, qualifying is not important :rotfl:

#12243 DutchCruijff

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:54

Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: What the hell? Take a look at the qualifying differences and take a good look at the race classfications - in San Marino he finished 45s ahead of Irvine.

#12244 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:57

Like you schumi lovers keep saying, qualifying is not important :rotfl:


Qualifing difference in the Merc is not that relevant because of the inherent flaws of the car. So your posts has no connection to what i actually said.


Do Vettel and Webber drive a Merc?

Wait, do you even watch F1? :rotfl:

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 12:58.


#12245 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:02

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: What the hell? Take a look at the qualifying differences and take a good look at the race classfications - in San Marino he finished 45s ahead of Irvine.


The first ever qualifying session Irvine beat Schumacher then after that it went down hill. Did you watch the Irvine interview when he said that when he was quicker than Michael strange things happened, very interesting indeed. What we no for a fact is that Irvine was a clear no 2, no questions about that

#12246 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:11

Qualifing difference in the Merc is not that relevant because of the inherent flaws of the car. So your posts has no connection to what i actually said.


Do Vettel and Webber drive a Merc?

Wait, do you even watch F1? :rotfl:


you guys do make me chuckle saying that qualifying is not important in the Mercedes nowadays because of it being a poor car. You same guys then are the ones who are making the point of Schumacher out qualifying Irvine in the 96 Ferrari which as you guys state was a dog of a car, just like this years Mercedes. So going by what you guys keep banging on about, qualifying behind Schumacher was no big deal in that hideous Ferrari of 96

#12247 Buttoneer

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:14

Please cut out the trolling in this thread. Personal attacks are not acceptable regardless of how uncomfortable a post might make you feel. If it breaks the rules, report it.

Please also keep on topic.

#12248 Nivra

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:16

....
And even if he were, you and I are not privy to what he offers in terms of value, sponsorship, motivation, etc etc etc.

Who knows, maybe he sits Nico on his lap at the end of every race, gives him a cuddle and a pep talk?

And maybe Nico retorts by saying fe@% off.... if you touch me again I'm calling the cops, old man!! I'm not your Massa, check the scorecard.

MS would have sold enough T-Shirts if Mercedes had hired him as their brand ambassador. But in reality, he was brought in to Mercedes as their no.1 assassin... unfortunately, he's been shooting blanks for the last two years.

Whats worse, Mercedes is paying him millions for practically getting thrashed by Nico Rosberg. MS can be perceived as a greedy for sure, pocketing all those $$$$ for driving slowly. Di Resta etc would be cursing him for blocking a good seat just to fulfill his personal ego.

Seriously, MS has been a big PR disaster for Mercedes. He's not their to sell clothes, he'd been hired to beat his Team-Mate atleast.

#12249 Jejking

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:17

its not how many you win its how you win ;]

Quite funny if you put this comment next to:

im sorry its points at the end of the year that decides who is the better driver, not how fiery someone is

They see me on the forum trying to turn facts around such as they suit me, they hatin. End of story bro.

#12250 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:18

I've stated my opinions and il stand by them, that Schumacher was a top level driver back in his heyday. But I do believe since then the elite of the current crop of drivers have taken the sport to another level and Michael is finding that out for himself. I'm sorry if I've upset you guys, no hard feelings