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#12201 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:36

Barring his debut season he has dominated his teammates


His team mates being a pay driver and a decade long test driver. And that is enough to prove a driver is top quality to you seriously?

Michael Schumacher included. How do you expect him to shine with a car that's never been in the top 3 against the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and co?? Rosberg as proven his quality and if the Mercedes team don't improve I feel he will be a top team driver at some point


True top drivers always shine one way or another. Look what senna, schumacher, alonso did early in their careers in cars no better than rosbergs. He could not even get a single podium in 2009 despite having one of the original double diffuser cars which was seriously fast. A true top driver would have won races in that car.

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#12202 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:38

I can remember lastyear that Nico didn't like the feel of the car, so in cars that neither liked Rosberg still dominated


Moving the goal posts much?

#12203 slaveceru

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:39

If that were so, how do you explain that with a radical change in Tyres and car between 2010 and 2011, still;

Vettel is better than Webber
Hamilton is better than Button
Alonso is better than Massa
Rosberg is better than Scumacher
Etc.

Lots changed but stayed the same, better drivers prevailing or massive coincidence?


I was not talking about which driver is the best I was just replaying to mrmusicman statement that the best drivers easily adopt to new changes in rules and tires and this is not the case anymore because the rules about testing has changed. This is also a major problem for the rookies these days and it is also one of the reasons why older drivers still prevail.
Last year Vettel was not better than Weber at the same time this year. This year Hamilton performance is not so much better than Button in comparison to the last year standing so what is your point really. I agree with you that Alonso is better than Massa and Rosberg is better than Schumacher till now but other two pairs can be discussed.


#12204 Juan Kerr

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:45

Ahh I see this is still going around and around in circles getting nowhere, any of you care to sit back for a minute and think about what you've actually achieved from commenting in this thread ? where does the debate on Michael Schumacher stand now ??
You won't push him into retirement if that's what you want
You wont convince anyone that he's slower that Rosberg if that's what you want
You won't convince anyone that he has lost his skills if that's what you want
You won't get anyone outside of this thread taking any notice of anything you say in this thread if that's what you want
You all need to get out more honestly!

#12205 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 09:50

I was not talking about which driver is the best I was just replaying to mrmusicman statement that the best drivers easily adopt to new changes in rules and tires and this is not the case anymore because the rules about testing has changed. This is also a major problem for the rookies these days and it is also one of the reasons why older drivers still prevail.
Last year Vettel was not better than Weber at the same time this year. This year Hamilton performance is not so much better than Button in comparison to the last year standing so what is your point really. I agree with you that Alonso is better than Massa and Rosberg is better than Schumacher till now but other two pairs can be discussed.


Nothing has changed from last year. Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Rosberg hold the same domination of their team mates as last year under different tyre regulatons so that proves further more than the better drivers adapt. For 15 years Michael was blistering fast, in different teams, different cars,, tyres, regulations, and now you think that suddenly out of the blue the mercedes does not suit him, and so badly that he is rubbish?

#12206 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:06

So. At the end of the day Michael will still have 91 wins, 7 titles. I prefer to be in his shoes, not Nico's. And please visit MS vs Nico thread. Stop BS here.


If teams were made up of single drivers then it would be easy not to mention Nico, but seeing as though they are teammates and one of the drivers is not performing well enough it is rather difficult to do so

#12207 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:08

His team mates being a pay driver and a decade long test driver. And that is enough to prove a driver is top quality to you seriously?



True top drivers always shine one way or another. Look what senna, schumacher, alonso did early in their careers in cars no better than rosbergs. He could not even get a single podium in 2009 despite having one of the original double diffuser cars which was seriously fast. A true top driver would have won races in that car.


Schumacher as always been in good cars don't worry about that

#12208 slaveceru

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:15

Nothing has changed from last year. Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Rosberg hold the same domination of their team mates as last year under different tyre regulatons so that proves further more than the better drivers adapt. For 15 years Michael was blistering fast, in different teams, different cars,, tyres, regulations, and now you think that suddenly out of the blue the mercedes does not suit him, and so badly that he is rubbish?

You have to check first to say something like that as someone will check for you instead and prove how foolish you really are. Last year standing till Hungary Weber was ahead of Vettel by 10 points. Vettel had 151 and Weber 161 points. So he did not hold domination over Weber last year. Hamilton was better last year in comparison to Button but this is not the case this year we will see at the end. So once again what is your point really?

#12209 sharo

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:17

OT: This is a perfect example how a thread can become ugly thanks to the "efforts" of a single troll.

I see no reason for me to continue here until there is something worth commenting.
But the fact that this and the other thread involving MS are very active even during the summer break speaks volumes about the man and his personality.
Bye.

#12210 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:24

OT: This is a perfect example how a thread can become ugly thanks to the "efforts" of a single troll.

I see no reason for me to continue here until there is something worth commenting.
But the fact that this and the other thread involving MS are very active even during the summer break speaks volumes about the man and his personality.
Bye.


Michael is a 7x world champion, so it is of no surprise that after getting thrashed by a so called journeyman that there's a crazy amount of interest on this subject, mainly because a very few could expect it and even fewer can accept it.

#12211 GerhardBerger

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:28

If teams were made up of single drivers then it would be easy not to mention Nico, but seeing as though they are teammates and one of the drivers is not performing well enough it is rather difficult to do so


Indeed, the 96 Ferrari was amazing wasn't it?

#12212 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 10:56

You have to check first to say something like that as someone will check for you instead and prove how foolish you really are. Last year standing till Hungary Weber was ahead of Vettel by 10 points. Vettel had 151 and Weber 161 points. So he did not hold domination over Weber last year. Hamilton was better last year in comparison to Button but this is not the case this year we will see at the end. So once again what is your point really?



Sorry I should have been more specific considering your level of analysis does not extend past the points table and fails to consider all the massive points vettel lost last year because of mistakes, and car issues. Fundamentally the speed advantage he had over webber has stayed the same as last year. Hamilton and Button are basically idential to last year in terms of points, and qualifying. So is Roberg and Michael. You could change the rules and regulations 100 times and that would stay the same.

#12213 slaveceru

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:32

Sorry I should have been more specific considering your level of analysis does not extend past the points table and fails to consider all the massive points vettel lost last year because of mistakes, and car issues. Fundamentally the speed advantage he had over webber has stayed the same as last year. Hamilton and Button are basically idential to last year in terms of points, and qualifying. So is Roberg and Michael. You could change the rules and regulations 100 times and that would stay the same.

Once again you are wrong he had only one more retirement in comparison to Webber. Just stick to Schumacher and Rosberg comparison in this pair of drivers you cannot get it wrong all other statements from you are rubbish.

#12214 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 11:48

Indeed, the 96 Ferrari was amazing wasn't it?


No it wasn't amazing but it was at the front end of the grid was it not, I'd say it was better than the current Mercedes car

#12215 GerhardBerger

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:01

No it wasn't amazing but it was at the front end of the grid was it not, I'd say it was better than the current Mercedes car


I doubt you'll find any articles which describe it as anything like a "good car" as you put it.

Look at where Irvine finished in the championship and look at where he was qualifying in races.

#12216 Number62

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:07

I doubt you'll find any articles which describe it as anything like a "good car" as you put it.

Look at where Irvine finished in the championship and look at where he was qualifying in races.


"The F310 proved to be a front-running car, but without the outright pace or superb reliability which led to the Williams FW18s dominating 1996."

That didn't take long - http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ferrari_F310





#12217 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:09

I doubt you'll find any articles which describe it as anything like a "good car" as you put it.

Look at where Irvine finished in the championship and look at where he was qualifying in races.


It was capable of winning with any good driver, look at how many dnfs Irvine had compared to Schumacher, anyway who is Eddie Irvine??

#12218 FenderJaguar

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:11

It was capable of winning with any good driver, look at how many dnfs Irvine had compared to Schumacher, anyway who is Eddie Irvine??


Maybe not so fast but a guy who makes Lewis Hamilton look like a little baby who is crying for mommy.

#12219 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:16

Maybe not so fast but a guy who makes Lewis Hamilton look like a little baby who is crying for mommy.


Good joke that was :rotfl:

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#12220 GerhardBerger

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:34

It was capable of winning with any good driver, look at how many dnfs Irvine had compared to Schumacher, anyway who is Eddie Irvine??


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Eddie_Irvine

There's no evidence to suggest any good driver could win in the 96 Ferrari. Seeing as you're always telling us that you are providing us with "facts", where are the facts that prove this?

#12221 mrmusicman

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:43

Once again you are wrong he had only one more retirement in comparison to Webber. Just stick to Schumacher and Rosberg comparison in this pair of drivers you cannot get it wrong all other statements from you are rubbish.


I never said retirements, I said car failures, and thats a big difference which I doubt you will understand. I will help you out. One can be from mistakes, the other bad luck.

#12222 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:44

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Eddie_Irvine

There's no evidence to suggest any good driver could win in the 96 Ferrari. Seeing as you're always telling us that you are providing us with "facts", where are the facts that prove this?


Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael

#12223 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:47

Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael


Is that one of your facts?

You posts get more and more hilarious. And again, you are the wrong thread for teammste comparison.


I never said retirements, I said car failures, and thats a big difference which I doubt you will understand. I will help you out. One can be from mistakes, the other bad luck.


Just look at the results in qualifying.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 12:50.


#12224 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:52

Is that one of your facts?

You posts get more and more hilarious. And again, you are the wrong thread for teammste comparison.




Just look at the results in qualifying.


Like you schumi lovers keep saying, qualifying is not important :rotfl:

#12225 DutchCruijff

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:54

Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: What the hell? Take a look at the qualifying differences and take a good look at the race classfications - in San Marino he finished 45s ahead of Irvine.

#12226 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 12:57

Like you schumi lovers keep saying, qualifying is not important :rotfl:


Qualifing difference in the Merc is not that relevant because of the inherent flaws of the car. So your posts has no connection to what i actually said.


Do Vettel and Webber drive a Merc?

Wait, do you even watch F1? :rotfl:

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 12:58.


#12227 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:02

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: What the hell? Take a look at the qualifying differences and take a good look at the race classfications - in San Marino he finished 45s ahead of Irvine.


The first ever qualifying session Irvine beat Schumacher then after that it went down hill. Did you watch the Irvine interview when he said that when he was quicker than Michael strange things happened, very interesting indeed. What we no for a fact is that Irvine was a clear no 2, no questions about that

#12228 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:11

Qualifing difference in the Merc is not that relevant because of the inherent flaws of the car. So your posts has no connection to what i actually said.


Do Vettel and Webber drive a Merc?

Wait, do you even watch F1? :rotfl:


you guys do make me chuckle saying that qualifying is not important in the Mercedes nowadays because of it being a poor car. You same guys then are the ones who are making the point of Schumacher out qualifying Irvine in the 96 Ferrari which as you guys state was a dog of a car, just like this years Mercedes. So going by what you guys keep banging on about, qualifying behind Schumacher was no big deal in that hideous Ferrari of 96

#12229 Buttoneer

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:14

Please cut out the trolling in this thread. Personal attacks are not acceptable regardless of how uncomfortable a post might make you feel. If it breaks the rules, report it.

Please also keep on topic.

#12230 Nivra

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:16

....
And even if he were, you and I are not privy to what he offers in terms of value, sponsorship, motivation, etc etc etc.

Who knows, maybe he sits Nico on his lap at the end of every race, gives him a cuddle and a pep talk?

And maybe Nico retorts by saying fe@% off.... if you touch me again I'm calling the cops, old man!! I'm not your Massa, check the scorecard.

MS would have sold enough T-Shirts if Mercedes had hired him as their brand ambassador. But in reality, he was brought in to Mercedes as their no.1 assassin... unfortunately, he's been shooting blanks for the last two years.

Whats worse, Mercedes is paying him millions for practically getting thrashed by Nico Rosberg. MS can be perceived as a greedy for sure, pocketing all those $$$$ for driving slowly. Di Resta etc would be cursing him for blocking a good seat just to fulfill his personal ego.

Seriously, MS has been a big PR disaster for Mercedes. He's not their to sell clothes, he'd been hired to beat his Team-Mate atleast.

#12231 Jejking

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:17

its not how many you win its how you win ;]

Quite funny if you put this comment next to:

im sorry its points at the end of the year that decides who is the better driver, not how fiery someone is

They see me on the forum trying to turn facts around such as they suit me, they hatin. End of story bro.

#12232 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:18

I've stated my opinions and il stand by them, that Schumacher was a top level driver back in his heyday. But I do believe since then the elite of the current crop of drivers have taken the sport to another level and Michael is finding that out for himself. I'm sorry if I've upset you guys, no hard feelings

#12233 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:19

you guys do make me chuckle saying that qualifying is not important in the Mercedes nowadays because of it being a poor car. You same guys then are the ones who are making the point of Schumacher out qualifying Irvine in the 96 Ferrari which as you guys state was a dog of a car, just like this years Mercedes. So going by what you guys keep banging on about, qualifying behind Schumacher was no big deal in that hideous Ferrari of 96



Yeah. The only difference is 15 years, different manufacturer, different rules, different quali.

Great comparison. :lol:

And you again don't understand why the comparison of quali pace is more difficult in a Merc. It's not because it's a poor car.


I've stated my opinions and il stand by them, that Schumacher was a top level driver back in his heyday. But I do believe since then the elite of the current crop of drivers have taken the sport to another level and Michael is finding that out for himself. I'm sorry if I've upset you guys, no hard feelings


Or it could be that the crop of drivers was the same level as today and Schumacher was above them.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 13:21.


#12234 Fortymark

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:21

Schumacher in 2010 + 2011 is no different than the -90:ies Schumacher.
What I´ve seen in his "second career" confirms what I´ve always thought of him.
He´s a good driver, great car control, good racing skils, very tough racer,
a hard defender and a driver whom tries to intimidate his opponets.
But he lacks the ultimate pace, maybe because he wants the car to behave like
a oversteering gokart and he does stupid things when he´s under pressure and
when his teammate is faster than him. I fully understand today why he wanted/demanded
exclusive #1 status and an 1b teammate.

He would have looked great in 2010 and 2011 too if Rosberg was treated like Irvine.

#12235 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:27

Schumacher in 2010 + 2011 is no different than the -90:ies Schumacher.
What I´ve seen in his "second career" confirms what I´ve always thought of him.
He´s a good driver, great car control, good racing skils, very tough racer,
a hard defender and a driver whom tries to intimidate his opponets.

But he lacks the ultimate pace, maybe because he wants the car to behave like
a oversteering gokart and he does stupid things when he´s under pressure and
when his teammate is faster than him. I fully understand today why he wanted/demanded
exclusive #1 status and an 1b teammate.

He would have looked great in 2010 and 2011 too if Rosberg was treated like Irvine.


Comedy, how did he lack the "ultimate pace" in Hungary 98, or France 04... maybe we should say he lacked it in Brazil 06... oh wait, he caught up nearly 1minute after the puncture. Foolish statement, like saying Senna sucked in the rain cos he wiped out in Oz 89.

Your 2nd part could almost be applied to Lewis Hamilton......

Irvine once commented after Malaysia 99, where Schumacher basically had to park it every 5 laps to let everyone catch up.... "He's not only the best Number 1, he's the best number 2 driver as well". Given how much cash Irvine got from Ferrari, I'd guess he was quite happy to be behind MS the vast majority of the time.

#12236 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:29

Yeah. The only difference is 15 years, different manufacturer, different rules, different quali.

Great comparison. :lol:

And you again don't understand why the comparison of quali pace is more difficult in a Merc. It's not because it's a poor car.




Or it could be that the crop of drivers was the same level as today and Schumacher was above them.


Maybe you are right but lastyear and this year are telling me otherwise

#12237 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:37

Maybe you are right but lastyear and this year are telling me otherwise

Well, invent a time machine, put the current top on the grid in the 90's and we'll have an aswer.

But i see no reason to believe that in the 90's there was a sudden drop in driver quality.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 13:38.


#12238 Fortymark

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:45

Comedy, how did he lack the "ultimate pace" in Hungary 98, or France 04... maybe we should say he lacked it in Brazil 06... oh wait, he caught up nearly 1minute after the puncture. Foolish statement, like saying Senna sucked in the rain cos he wiped out in Oz 89.

Your 2nd part could almost be applied to Lewis Hamilton......

Irvine once commented after Malaysia 99, where Schumacher basically had to park it every 5 laps to let everyone catch up.... "He's not only the best Number 1, he's the best number 2 driver as well". Given how much cash Irvine got from Ferrari, I'd guess he was quite happy to be behind MS the vast majority of the time.


Fact is that Schumacher was always slow in Hungary, this year included. It was also proven that Schumachers race in -98 wasn´t that fast either.
Villeneuve and Ralf? was actually faster considering their equipment. Schumachers so called fast stint also included an spin which
costed him 5-10 seconds IIRC. ie it wasn´t so fast..

France -04, sorry but Im not impressed when 1 driver on the grid has a car like a RedBull 2010 while the others have STR on worse tires.

Brazil 2006 was the result of having the fastest car / tire combo. Massa was 1 second quicker than Alonso in qualifying and he was cruising
in the race. He even let MS past to unlap himself during one stage.

Eddie Irvine wasn´t among the best drivers and he became a winner in -99 when MS was absent. He was also outraced by Mika Salo
in Germany. Yes, by Mika Salo.


#12239 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:46

Well, invent a time machine, put the current top on the grid in the 90's and we'll have an aswer.

But i see no reason to believe that in the 90's there was a sudden drop in driver quality.


Time goes forward and things improve with time, it's called evolution. The path into formula one with the lower categories is more competitive than it ever as been. Michael has stated this before in an interview, il try to find it for you guys. I think it might be when Schumacher talks about hamilton

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#12240 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:51

Time goes forward and things improve with time, it's called evolution. The path into formula one with the lower categories is more competitive than it ever as been. Michael has stated this before in an interview, il try to find it for you guys. I think it might be when Schumacher talks about hamilton


True. That's why you have to analyse things in context.

So why are you then comparing a 2011 Nico with a 1996 Michael?

It's a trap

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 13:53.


#12241 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:55

Fact is that Schumacher was always slow in Hungary, this year included. It was also proven that Schumachers race in -98 wasn´t that fast either.
Villeneuve and Ralf? was actually faster considering their equipment. Schumachers so called fast stint also included an spin which
costed him 5-10 seconds IIRC. ie it wasn´t so fast..

France -04, sorry but Im not impressed when 1 driver on the grid has a car like a RedBull 2010 while the others have STR on worse tires.

Brazil 2006 was the result of having the fastest car / tire combo. Massa was 1 second quicker than Alonso in qualifying and he was cruising
in the race. He even let MS past to unlap himself during one stage.

Eddie Irvine wasn´t among the best drivers and he became a winner in -99 when MS was absent. He was also outraced by Mika Salo
in Germany. Yes, by Mika Salo.


Hungary 98, Schumacher had to make up 20 seconds in 20 laps - approximately - even with the slide wide at the final corner, he still came out 3-4 secs ahead of the McLarens, granted DC was held behind Hakkinen for 2-3 laps, but even so... if you fail to appreciate that stint, then I wonder what does impress you?

MS sat behind FA in the Renault (not a STR by any stretch in 2004 - to suggest so indicates complete flamebaiting), again, they tried a strategy switch, could MS make up a stop in 15-20 laps.... yes, and he won. Hardly unimpressive even if the Ferrari did have a large advantage that season... after all, where was RB in this? Battling Trulli for 3rd... brilliant!

Brazil 06, yes of course he had the quickest car, but he still made up a minute on drivers such as JB, FA & Raikkonen..... none of whom were cruising!

Irvine got outdriven by Salo - cherry pick 1 race out of the 7 or so Salo drove that season.... and whilst Salo was far from top class, he was hardly Ricardo Rosset! Irvine by his own admission was a class below the top guys, but he got 4 wins - mainly through McLaren unreliability - nobody honestly believes MS wouldn't have been a better contender in 99 but for his crash in GB.

You can make your opinions but what you provided was just that, an opinion. Don't see real hard evidence for MS just being a good driver, but nothing special in the 1st part of his career though.

#12242 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:59

True. That's why you have to analyse things in context.

So why are you then comparing a 2011 Nico with a 1996 Michael?

It's a trap


It's you guys who say that the 96 Schumacher would wipe the floor with Rosberg of today, I don't think he would tbh. I think Nico would have the speed edge on him. I think Michael is the better racer of the two but he also makes more mistakes and is slower

#12243 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:04

It's you guys who say that the 96 Schumacher would wipe the floor with Rosberg of today, I don't think he would tbh. I think Nico would have the speed edge on him. I think Michael is the better racer of the two but he also makes more mistakes and is slower

Did Nico showed anything in his career (speed, race craft etc.) that warants your opinion that he would beat a prime Michael? And what mistakes are you talking about ? Remember who you are comparing. Michael in the 90 had brilliant speed and made rare mistakes.


You just said one post above that things change over time. So why insist that 2011 has any relevance to 1996.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 14:08.


#12244 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:06

Did Nico showed anything in his career (speed, race craft etc.) that warants your opinion that he would beat a prime Michael? And what mistakes are you talking aboutx ? Remember who you are comparing.


Well to be fair in 96 he did stuff it in the 1st lap at Monaco.. undoubtedly his error.... 95 he stuffed it at Imola.... cant' recall many else from those 2 years though, probably the best 2 years I can recall, though 97 & 98 were damn good as well.

#12245 Diablobb81

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:12

Well to be fair in 96 he did stuff it in the 1st lap at Monaco.. undoubtedly his error.... 95 he stuffed it at Imola.... cant' recall many else from those 2 years though, probably the best 2 years I can recall, though 97 & 98 were damn good as well.

Everyone makes mistakes. Was he more mistake prone than others, that's the question in reply to what spa said.

#12246 Fortymark

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:19

Hungary 98, Schumacher had to make up 20 seconds in 20 laps - approximately - even with the slide wide at the final corner, he still came out 3-4 secs ahead of the McLarens, granted DC was held behind Hakkinen for 2-3 laps, but even so... if you fail to appreciate that stint, then I wonder what does impress you?

MS sat behind FA in the Renault (not a STR by any stretch in 2004 - to suggest so indicates complete flamebaiting), again, they tried a strategy switch, could MS make up a stop in 15-20 laps.... yes, and he won. Hardly unimpressive even if the Ferrari did have a large advantage that season... after all, where was RB in this? Battling Trulli for 3rd... brilliant!

Brazil 06, yes of course he had the quickest car, but he still made up a minute on drivers such as JB, FA & Raikkonen..... none of whom were cruising!

Irvine got outdriven by Salo - cherry pick 1 race out of the 7 or so Salo drove that season.... and whilst Salo was far from top class, he was hardly Ricardo Rosset! Irvine by his own admission was a class below the top guys, but he got 4 wins - mainly through McLaren unreliability - nobody honestly believes MS wouldn't have been a better contender in 99 but for his crash in GB.

You can make your opinions but what you provided was just that, an opinion. Don't see real hard evidence for MS just being a good driver, but nothing special in the 1st part of his career though.


I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly? It was just like in Turkey 2010, when Webber and Vettel clashed it opened up an opportunity for MS to grab the 3:rd spot. He had been cruising and holding up Rosberg for more than half the race, all of a sudden he upped the pace with 1 second
per lap. If he had driven at that pace from the beginning he would have grabbed that podium. Do you follow?

In Hungary 1998 he obviously had an very fast car but as I said, other drivers did an even more impressive race (like Villenueve, Hill etc)
but the get totally unnoticed and fausly an myth gets created by Mikas mech problems, Ross tactical skills and Michaels upped pace.

If we look at Brazil again, making up a 1 minute on FA, JB and Kimi isn´t really impressive if you have a car which is 1 second faster every lap now is it?




#12247 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:21

Everyone makes mistakes. Was he more mistake prone than others, that's the question in reply to what spa said.


Well let's not forget the 2 mistakes he made at Adelaide 94 one of those did hand him the title though

#12248 fieraku

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:26

For me it's great to watch Michael race because it won't last forever.Enjoy it while you can.

Yes,and most guys his age are in midlife crisis buying Lambos and Ferraris etc.....................he's driving F1 cars :wave:

Let it be!

#12249 Fortymark

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:32

For me it's great to watch Michael race because it won't last forever.Enjoy it while you can.

Yes,and most guys his age are in midlife crisis buying Lambos and Ferraris etc.....................he's driving F1 cars :wave:

Let it be!


I don´t complain!
2010, 2011 is a dream come true. I´ve always wanted to see what Schumacher
could do without all those extra bits. Now we have equal engines, same non tailor made tires
no gizmos and a field full of talented drivers. Can he hold up the myth? Is he "head n´shoulders"
above the other drivers?

#12250 MightyMoose

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:32

[quote name='Fortymark' date='Aug 11 2011, 10:19' post='5225513']
I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly?

Quite possibly the lamest post I've read today - and I've read several on the LH/JB thread so you're in wonderful company!

I see you're a member of the Rubens fanclub - that's an epic whinge - and a huge stretch to say team mates were slowed down (maybe on 2 or 3 occasions - notably Austria 02) but an everyday occurence? You're fooling yourself.

Why didn't he do the quick laps all the time at Hungary 98.... well let's see... could it have been because he had his face up the arse of the McLarens exhausts???? Come on, surely you can't be making that your evidence for this. It's ridiculous. The whole reason for the strategy change was because passing was looking very difficult, if not impossible. So they swapped to a non-optional strategy and he pulled out 20 qualifying style laps - you know what they are right? It's where you take more chances to go quicker... in a race back then you'd rarely finish if you tried doing maximum pace all the time so it did have a possible negative, indeed as already mentioned MS dropped it on the final corner and got away with it.

I can see you're entrenched in your (questionable) position so I'll listen to those who advise me to avoid the trolls/flame baiters. I think it's a shame you can't pay credit where credit is clearly due.