Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20758 replies to this topic

#12251 GerhardBerger

GerhardBerger
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:50

This is becoming a vicious circle now and quite boring tbh, Schumacher was the best of his era no doubt, even though I think if senna survived things would have been different. There is no evidence however to suggest he is far off ability wise from his peak and saying so is just simple assumptions


By the same token there's no evidence to suggest that he is as good as he was at his peak. Trying to categorically prove or disprove something like that is almost impossible because there are so many variables.

However, the fact that Schumacher hasn't achieved a single podium, let alone a race win since his comeback would suggest he is not as good as he used to be (i think Schumacher achieved at least one race win in every season from 92-06, and of course multiple podiums).

Advertisement

#12252 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 17,659 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:58

This is becoming a vicious circle now and quite boring tbh, Schumacher was the best of his era no doubt, even though I think if senna survived things would have been different. There is no evidence however to suggest he is far off ability wise from his peak and saying so is just simple assumptions

By the same token there's no evidence to suggest that he is as good as he was at his peak. Trying to categorically prove or disprove something like that is almost impossible because there are so many variables.

Don't these two pretty much sum up the last five pages?

edit; Although somewhat more politely.

#12253 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:10

However, the fact that Schumacher hasn't achieved a single podium, let alone a race win since his comeback would suggest he is not as good as he used to be (i think Schumacher achieved at least one race win in every season from 92-06, and of course multiple podiums).


How many podiums and wins were achieved by NR in the same car?
We do not know if Alonso or Hamilton would end up any better than Schumacher, and any claims to the contrary are just speculation.

Conclusion that Schumacher is not as good as he used to be based on his current record is rather bizzar logic under those circumstances.

#12254 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:17

By the same token there's no evidence to suggest that he is as good as he was at his peak. Trying to categorically prove or disprove something like that is almost impossible because there are so many variables.

However, the fact that Schumacher hasn't achieved a single podium, let alone a race win since his comeback would suggest he is not as good as he used to be (i think Schumacher achieved at least one race win in every season from 92-06, and of course multiple podiums).


There are two explanations for his poor performances these last two years, one is he is past his best or the other is the drivers of today are better than his competition when he was at his peak. I think it could be a mixture of both, the one thing nobody expected is him getting destroyed in qualifying the way he has been. I hope for his sake that he as a Stella weekend, with a strong qualifying and race. Sadly though I can't see it happening tbh

#12255 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:28

There are two explanations for his poor performances these last two years, one is he is past his best or the other is the drivers of today are better than his competition when he was at his peak. I think it could be a mixture of both, the one thing nobody expected is him getting destroyed in qualifying the way he has been. I hope for his sake that he as a Stella weekend, with a strong qualifying and race. Sadly though I can't see it happening tbh


Another quality post. Two reasons - better drivers today, and his decline. Car has nothing to do with it, or wait - could be that we have a third reason?

#12256 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:37

Another quality post. Two reasons - better drivers today, and his decline. Car has nothing to do with it, or wait - could be that we have a third reason?


What are you talking about? Plz explain. Nico is driving the same car and is doing a better job, he his not happy with the car just like Michael isn't

#12257 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:43

Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael

:lol: All credibility is lost.
Your first sentence is ridiculous he destroyed Irvine.
Why does rosberg beating an over the hill 42 year old who had a 3 year break out of formula 1, who clearly isnt the same driver he was prove that he would beat schumacher in his prime in 96.


#12258 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 4,539 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:50

What are you talking about? Plz explain. Nico is driving the same car and is doing a better job, he his not happy with the car just like Michael isn't

Guys, it's a difference of opinion. Really--you all seem to be trying to convince each other that the way you see it is better than the way somebody else sees it by using your own perceptions to support your argument. That almost never works, because you all obviously see things differently--and, to quote Reservoir Dogs, "Nobody knows each other so they never back down."

All we have to go on is that Schumacher won in the 90's and he's not winning now. End of story. Yes, I know it's not as simple as all that, and we all have our opinions as to why. That's great, but not when you have a problem with somebody else's opinion merely because you disagree with it. You think it would've been different in the 90's with today's competition? Fine. You think it would be different now if Schumacher had a better car? Fine. Somebody disagrees with you? Fine--agree to disagree and move on. It honestly doesn't seem to me like any form of stimulating discussion is happening in the thread at the moment because we've been beating the same dead horse for something like five pages now.

*ahem*

How many of you think Schumacher is going to finish out his contract with MGP? Any indications he might cut his contract short by a year, or even race past 2012? I thought the recent stir-up in the media about this was interesting.

#12259 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:54

:lol: All credibility is lost.
Your first sentence is ridiculous he destroyed Irvine.
Why does rosberg beating an over the hill 42 year old who had a 3 year break out of formula 1, who clearly isnt the same driver he was prove that he would beat schumacher in his prime in 96.


When they both finished in the same races there finishing positions were not too far apart on the whole. I'm not answering your question as I've answered it a thousand times, can you prove he wouldn't beat the Schumacher of 96? I think we should all agree to disagree

Advertisement

#12260 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:10

There are two explanations for his poor performances these last two years, one is he is past his best or the other is the drivers of today are better than his competition when he was at his peak. I think it could be a mixture of both, the one thing nobody expected is him getting destroyed in qualifying the way he has been. I hope for his sake that he as a Stella weekend, with a strong qualifying and race. Sadly though I can't see it happening tbh

The drivers aren't better quantity has gone up not quality has not. The driver that is said to be the most complete driver aka alonso was in competition with schumacher in 06 for the drivers championship.
They can't be better some of them where there in 06.
alonso
button
trulli
heideld
barrichello
webber
kubica
Rosberg
Massa


#12261 EdwardCullen

EdwardCullen
  • Member

  • 763 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:16

Great article on www.formula1.com home page..... Michael Schumacher: HALL OF FAME
Posted Image
http://www.formula1....hall_of_fame/7/

World Championships 7
Grand Prix Entries 280
Grand Prix Wins 91
Pole Positions 68
Nationality German


History
Since the Formula One World Championship began in 1950 the title has been won by 32 different drivers, 14 of whom won more than one championship. Of the previous multiple champions the most prolific was Juan Manuel Fangio, whose record of five titles stood for five decades until it was eclipsed by the most dominant driver in the history of the sport. By the time he retired, still the man to beat after 16 seasons at the top, Michael Schumacher had seven driving titles and held nearly every record in the book by a considerable margin. Though his ethics were sometimes questionable, his sheer brilliance behind the wheel was never in dispute.

The most extraordinary driver's origins were most ordinary. He was born on 3 January, 1969, near Cologne, Germany, six years before his brother Ralf, who would also become a Formula One driver. Their father, a bricklayer, ran the local kart track, at Kerpen, where Mrs Schumacher operated the canteen. As a four-year old Michael enjoyed playing on a pedal kart, though when his father fitted it with a small motorcycle engine the future superstar promptly crashed into a lamppost. But Michael soon mastered his machine and won his first kart championship at six, following which his far from affluent parents arranged sponsorship from wealthy enthusiasts that enabled Michael to make rapid progress. By 1987 he was German and European kart champion and had left school to work as an apprentice car mechanic, a job that was soon replaced by full-time employment as a race driver. In 1990 he won the German F3 championship and was hired by Mercedes to drive sportscars. The next year he made a stunning Formula One debut, qualifying an astonishing seventh in a Jordan for the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa, whereupon he was immediately snapped up by Benetton, where in 1992 he won his first Formula One race, again at Spa, the most demanding circuit of them all.

Over the next four seasons with Benetton he won a further 18 races and two world championships. His first, in 1994, was somewhat tainted in that Benetton was suspected of technical irregularities and in their championship showdown race in Adelaide Schumacher collided (deliberately, some thought) with his closest challenger, the Williams of Damon Hill. But Germany's first world champion was unquestionably worthy of the 1995 driving title, following which he moved to Ferrari, then a team in disarray and without a champion since Jody Scheckter in 1979. The Schumacher-Ferrari combination began promisingly with three wins in 1996 and five more in 1997, though that season ended in infamy when in the final race, at Jerez in Spain, Schumacher tried unsuccessfully to ram the Williams of his title rival Jacques Villeneuve off the road. As punishment for his misdemeanour Schumacher's second place in the championship was stricken from the record books he would thereafter begin to rewrite.

After finishing second overall in 1998, Schumacher's 1999 season was interrupted by a broken leg (the only injury of his career) incurred in crash at the British Grand Prix. From then on there was no stopping 'Schumi' - who in 2000 became Ferrari's first champion in 21 years, then went on to win the driving title for the next four seasons in succession. In 2002 he won 11 times and finished on the podium in all 17 races. In 2003 he broke Fangio's record by winning his sixth driving title. In 2004 he won 13 of the 18 races to secure his seventh championship by a massive margin. Disadvantaged by an off-the-pace Ferrari in 2005 he still managed third overall in the standings. In 2006 he finished his career with a flourish (though at Monaco he was found guilty of deliberately parking his Ferrari to prevent anyone from beating his qualifying time): extending his pole position record to 68 (Ayrton Senna had 65), scoring seven victories to bring his total to 91 (40 more than his nearest rival, Alain Prost) and nearly winning yet another driving title.

Like all the great drivers Schumacher had exceptional ambition, confidence, intelligence, motivation, dedication and determination. What set him apart and helped account for his unprecedented length of time at the top of his profession was a pure passion for racing and an endless quest for improvement. Blessed with a supreme natural talent, he had a racing brain to match, possessing spare mental capacity that enabled him to make split-second decisions, adapt to changing circumstances and plan ahead while driving on the limit, which with his superb state of fitness (he trained harder than any driver) he was easily able to do for lap after lap. The smoothly swift and mechanically-aware driver operated with a keen sensitivity for the limits of his car and himself (he made comparatively few mistakes) and his feedback to his engineers (led by technical director Ross Brawn who worked with him throughout his career) was exceptionally astute.

No Ferrari driver worked harder for the team, nor were any of them more appreciated than the German who led the famous Italian Scuderia to six successive Constructors' Championships. He led by example, frequently visiting the factory at Maranello, talking to the personnel, thanking them, encouraging them, never criticising and invariably inspiring everyone with his optimism, high energy level and huge work ethic. The team was totally devoted to the driver who often said he loved the Ferrari ‘family’.

Life with his own family - wife Corinna and their children Gina-Maria and Mick - was deliberately kept as normal as possible (the children never came to the races) and held sacred by the essentially shy and private man who reluctantly became one of the most famous sportsmen in the world. Rich beyond his wildest dreams (he reportedly earned as much as US$100 million a year), he generously supported charities, especially those for underprivileged children, and to help victims of the 2004 Asian tsunami disaster he made a personal donation of US$10 million.

In his last season the 37-year-old driver who had made Formula One racing his personal playground was still at the peak of his powers. No champion had been so excellent for so long, but Michael Schumacher finally grew tired of the effort necessary to continue to excel and decided to quit while he was still ahead - so far ahead that his achievements are unlikely to ever be surpassed.

Yet his retirement proved to be only temporary. In 2010, after a three-year hiatus as a consultant to Ferrari, 41-year-old Michael Schumacher succumbed to the lure of driving for the new Mercedes GP team headed by Ross Brawn.

Text - Gerald Donaldson

Edited by EdwardCullen, 11 August 2011 - 17:24.


#12262 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,599 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:30

I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly? It was just like in Turkey 2010, when Webber and Vettel clashed it opened up an opportunity for MS to grab the 3:rd spot. He had been cruising and holding up Rosberg for more than half the race, all of a sudden he upped the pace with 1 second
per lap. If he had driven at that pace from the beginning he would have grabbed that podium. Do you follow?

In Hungary 1998 he obviously had an very fast car but as I said, other drivers did an even more impressive race (like Villenueve, Hill etc)
but the get totally unnoticed and fausly an myth gets created by Mikas mech problems, Ross tactical skills and Michaels upped pace.

If we look at Brazil again, making up a 1 minute on FA, JB and Kimi isn´t really impressive if you have a car which is 1 second faster every lap now is it?



Hill and Villenueve more impressive in Hungry in 1998 than Schmacher. What planet are you on. :rotfl:

#12263 Andy865

Andy865
  • Member

  • 2,447 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:57

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11

#12264 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:12

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11


Interesting; do not know what to think of it. He might be tired of talking to technical staff, and getting no results. Lost of enthusiasm to continue in that mode might be different today for him than it was then in uncompetitive Ferrari.

#12265 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:15

When they both finished in the same races there finishing positions were not too far apart on the whole. I'm not answering your question as I've answered it a thousand times, can you prove he wouldn't beat the Schumacher of 96? I think we should all agree to disagree

On the whole no that's clearly not true.
When your teamate has missed six races then comes back and outqualifies you by 1 second, on the whole that means your far apart.

#12266 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 13,147 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:21

I have no doubts Schumacher knows he is the problem. Last year he was too slow due to the tyres. This year he is making mistakes in a majority of the races, three times resulting in damage. The net result is all the same, he is behind Britney over the course of two entire WDCs. Even one is unprecedented. Despite his calm attitude on the outside, I am sure he is severely hurting on the inside.

Then again, he is calling the shots. Mercedes are not going to fire him if he says no. If he leaves at the end of the year, it will be like Red Bull did with Coulthard, and let him announce his retirement first before announcing his replacement. If he fancies another go next year, he will get it, but all the evidence points towards that there is a fundamental trade-off between pace and mistakes.

#12267 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:25

On the whole no that's clearly not true.
When your teamate has missed six races then comes back and outqualifies you by 1 second, on the whole that means your far apart.


We was discussing the year of 1996 not 1999 which by then Irvine knew his place in the team

#12268 zelpre

zelpre
  • Member

  • 275 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:40

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11


Lol c'mon what's with this press?! wtf?! It was all bullshit and Schumi's manager denied that already...

The article from Corriere dello Sport was also deleted few days ago but the stupid media is still translating this bullshit...some people are really sick, they don't know what to do in life


#12269 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,145 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:43

We was discussing the year of 1996 not 1999 which by then Irvine knew his place in the team


Yeah, Malaysia 99 he knew he had a shot at the title and the best driver in the world returning to back him up...... only he didn't think by "backing up" would have meant MS needing a good reverse gear.

Seriously, you initiate a debate with an opinion that can't ever be proved one way or another - though common sense could/should come into play really. Then announce you're bored with it because your opinion can't be proved negatively either. In other words, you drop the stink bomb, hang around to make sure the windows are all shut, then (try) to slip out of the door.

We've got 1 poster claiming NR is the new Boutsen showing how far MS has fallen.... you're claiming MS wasn't all that special and would have been beaten by NR in his 96era heyday.....

#12270 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:47

We was discussing the year of 1996 not 1999 which by then Irvine knew his place in the team

Even in 1996 he done the same thing to irvine.

#12271 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:49

I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly? It was just like in Turkey 2010, when Webber and Vettel clashed it opened up an opportunity for MS to grab the 3:rd spot. He had been cruising and holding up Rosberg for more than half the race, all of a sudden he upped the pace with 1 second
per lap. If he had driven at that pace from the beginning he would have grabbed that podium. Do you follow?

In Hungary 1998 he obviously had an very fast car but as I said, other drivers did an even more impressive race (like Villenueve, Hill etc)
but the get totally unnoticed and fausly an myth gets created by Mikas mech problems, Ross tactical skills and Michaels upped pace.

If we look at Brazil again, making up a 1 minute on FA, JB and Kimi isn´t really impressive if you have a car which is 1 second faster every lap now is it?

Schumacher did not all of a sudden up his pace in turkey by a second, just look at the lap times that's not true.

Schumachers drive in brazil was brillaint, his pace was amazing, when your only lapping about 4 tenths slower than your teamates even though you have 23 more laps of fuel onboard than him that's is impressive.

Do you have any proof his teamates were given slower cars than him ?
Your not impressed by schumacher because you dont want to be, your ignorant.


#12272 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:52

Even in 1996 he done the same thing to irvine.


You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

#12273 merschu

merschu
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:57

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11




Interesting; do not know what to think of it. He might be tired of talking to technical staff, and getting no results. Lost of enthusiasm to continue in that mode might be different today for him than it was then in uncompetitive Ferrari.



Everybody is just copying what "Corriere dello Sport" article said! Which has now been deleted! And Michael schumacher's Manager has denied this reports and has said that Schumi did not speak to Corriere dello Sport people since his comeback!

Here is the article of Michael Schumacher Manager denying this report:

Italy's Corriere dello Sport this week quoted the Mercedes driver as admitting that despite his 2012 contract, "I do not know if my mindset is right for this team".

But Bild newspaper quotes the seven time world champion's manager Sabine Kehm as dismissing the quotes as "All nonsense."Since he returned to F1, Michael has not spoken to anyone from Corriere dello Sport," she insisted.

Kehm clarified that her 42-year-old boss is not about to quit.

"He is full of passion for the project and regards it as an exciting challenge to build something big together with Mercedes."That it is sometimes tough only encourages him more," she said. "Someone who will soon celebrate their 20th anniversary in formula one knows that perseverance is what makes the difference."




http://www.f1reports.../article/12010/

#12274 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:09

You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

A few postition is not close in formula 1.


#12275 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:21

A few postition is not close in formula 1.


Yes you are right, Schumacher must have been a lifetime away from rosberg lastyear :rotfl:

#12276 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,145 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:26

Yes you are right, Schumacher must have been a lifetime away from rosberg lastyear :rotfl:


Another good way to ignore the fact that what you posted is complete toss about Irvine being "close" in 96.

MS was a way off NR for the 1st half of 2010, since then he's been a lot closer, not in qualifying, but in general race pace. And yes, he sacrificed some of his races last year for the benefit of NR - but that derails your point, whatever that is intended to be - so we'll gloss over it for you shall we?

NR has done some good "bring it home" races - completely anonymous of course - since Canada...... MS has had a couple of poor races, a DNF and suddenly he's a wanker.... no-one was saying that after Canada.

Let's see what goes on between now & the end of the season, then we'll know all about 2011. But it won't change the facts of MS between 91-06, no matter how much you try to spin it.

#12277 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,633 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:40

Lol c'mon what's with this press?! wtf?! It was all bullshit and Schumi's manager denied that already...

The article from Corriere dello Sport was also deleted few days ago but the stupid media is still translating this bullshit...some people are really sick, they don't know what to do in life

Yes! I was wondering the same thing this morning, why would someone at the TG staff approve such an article as it already has been officially dismissed :down:

You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

Brazil -4. Argentine -8. San Marino -2. Portugal -2 in the races where they both finished. Not (even) talking about the difference in time in the race, in qualifying it was varying between 0.4 and 1.5s. Result list also proves the Ferrari was one unreliable m*********er :/ But nevertheless, Irvine's list with crash/spin is impressive there. So can you give me the address of your pharmacist please. Those meds you are using must be one hell of a drug :drunk:

I think Schumacher was one of the reasons the sport professionalized in no-time, he worked extremely hard and I'm absolutely convinced Alonso is trying to pull off exactly the same trick. The man from Oviedo I find him to have a really lot in common with Schumacher, finding the latter to have the upperhand in self-confidence and agression, also Alonso isn't a bad cookie at that last one either. Fernando is one hell of a complete driver, except in my opinion he whines too much for things happening around him instead of dealing with it. That is the reason why I rate MSC higher than him and I find it an awful shame both didn't race each other in their real prime. I suspect Schumacher would have gone up to a really hard fight then.

Edited by Jejking, 11 August 2011 - 19:46.


#12278 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:47

Another good way to ignore the fact that what you posted is complete toss about Irvine being "close" in 96.

MS was a way off NR for the 1st half of 2010, since then he's been a lot closer, not in qualifying, but in general race pace. And yes, he sacrificed some of his races last year for the benefit of NR - but that derails your point, whatever that is intended to be - so we'll gloss over it for you shall we?

NR has done some good "bring it home" races - completely anonymous of course - since Canada...... MS has had a couple of poor races, a DNF and suddenly he's a wanker.... no-one was saying that after Canada.

Let's see what goes on between now & the end of the season, then we'll know all about 2011. But it won't change the facts of MS between 91-06, no matter how much you try to spin it.


Like I said when Irvine and Schumacher finished the same race together Irvine was generally only a few positions behind Schumacher in 1996, this is a FACT!

When have I called Michael a wanker??

I admit that this year michaels wheel to wheel racing as been much improved apart from a few silly errors but that's to be expected, but many of times lastyear and this year Michael as had a good start and I've been waiting for the old schumi magic to take over and see him fly through the field and nothing happens, he just drops further and further behind

You've got to admit that on the whole michaels qualifying pace as been dismal this last couple of years compared to Nico, I'm not having the excuse that Michael sets up the car for the race and nico more for qualifying. If that was the case where Is this blistering race pace compared to Nicos?

#12279 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:00

Yes! I was wondering the same thing this morning, why would someone at the TG staff approve such an article as it already has been officially dismissed :down:


Brazil -4. Argentine -8. San Marino -2. Portugal -2 in the races where they both finished. Not (even) talking about the difference in time in the race, in qualifying it was varying between 0.4 and 1.5s. Result list also proves the Ferrari was one unreliable m*********er :/ But nevertheless, Irvine's list with crash/spin is impressive there. So can you give me the address of your pharmacist please. Those meds you are using must be one hell of a drug :drunk:

I think Schumacher was one of the reasons the sport professionalized in no-time, he worked extremely hard and I'm absolutely convinced Alonso is trying to pull off exactly the same trick. The man from Oviedo I find him to have a really lot in common with Schumacher, finding the latter to have the upperhand in self-confidence and agression, also Alonso isn't a bad cookie at that last one either. Fernando is one hell of a complete driver, except in my opinion he whines too much for things happening around him instead of dealing with it. That is the reason why I rate MSC higher than him and I find it an awful shame both didn't race each other in their real prime. I suspect Schumacher would have gone up to a really hard fight then.


I'm not going to take a reply seriously from a guy who makes race results up now am i? Please get your facts right, Schumacher didn't even finish in Argentina, and if he did he would have been at maximum only 3 places ahead of Irvine as Eddie finished 4th.

Advertisement

#12280 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,633 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:04

Like I said when Irvine and Schumacher finished the same race together Irvine was generally only a few positions behind Schumacher in 1996, this is a FACT!

When have I called Michael a wanker??

I admit that this year michaels wheel to wheel racing as been much improved apart from a few silly errors but that's to be expected, but many of times lastyear and this year Michael as had a good start and I've been waiting for the old schumi magic to take over and see him fly through the field and nothing happens, he just drops further and further behind

You've got to admit that on the whole michaels qualifying pace as been dismal this last couple of years compared to Nico, I'm not having the excuse that Michael sets up the car for the race and nico more for qualifying. If that was the case where Is this blistering race pace compared to Nicos?

:clap: Calling for facts and then ignoring them when presented :clap: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So much for being in front, accidentally correcting yourself in the side of a Sauber in the middle of a wet corner, breaking a front wing, falling back, making a good tyre choice and then catching back up through traffic and even ending the race with less arrears than directly after the stop. And that's just Silverstone. So "we" have "not got" to admit anything. Slowly building more confidence up in him and I'm really curious if he's able to keep that more positive line drag on through the rest of the season and 2012 :up:

#12281 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,828 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:08

You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

59-11 in points!
3rd vs 10th in the championship
what on earth are you on?!



#12282 zelpre

zelpre
  • Member

  • 275 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:10

Great article on www.formula1.com home page..... Michael Schumacher: HALL OF FAME
Posted Image
http://www.formula1....hall_of_fame/7/

World Championships 7
Grand Prix Entries 280
Grand Prix Wins 91
Pole Positions 68
Nationality German


History
Since the Formula One World Championship began in 1950 the title has been won by 32 different drivers, 14 of whom won more than one championship. Of the previous multiple champions the most prolific was Juan Manuel Fangio, whose record of five titles stood for five decades until it was eclipsed by the most dominant driver in the history of the sport. By the time he retired, still the man to beat after 16 seasons at the top, Michael Schumacher had seven driving titles and held nearly every record in the book by a considerable margin. Though his ethics were sometimes questionable, his sheer brilliance behind the wheel was never in dispute.

The most extraordinary driver's origins were most ordinary. He was born on 3 January, 1969, near Cologne, Germany, six years before his brother Ralf, who would also become a Formula One driver. Their father, a bricklayer, ran the local kart track, at Kerpen, where Mrs Schumacher operated the canteen. As a four-year old Michael enjoyed playing on a pedal kart, though when his father fitted it with a small motorcycle engine the future superstar promptly crashed into a lamppost. But Michael soon mastered his machine and won his first kart championship at six, following which his far from affluent parents arranged sponsorship from wealthy enthusiasts that enabled Michael to make rapid progress. By 1987 he was German and European kart champion and had left school to work as an apprentice car mechanic, a job that was soon replaced by full-time employment as a race driver. In 1990 he won the German F3 championship and was hired by Mercedes to drive sportscars. The next year he made a stunning Formula One debut, qualifying an astonishing seventh in a Jordan for the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa, whereupon he was immediately snapped up by Benetton, where in 1992 he won his first Formula One race, again at Spa, the most demanding circuit of them all.

Over the next four seasons with Benetton he won a further 18 races and two world championships. His first, in 1994, was somewhat tainted in that Benetton was suspected of technical irregularities and in their championship showdown race in Adelaide Schumacher collided (deliberately, some thought) with his closest challenger, the Williams of Damon Hill. But Germany's first world champion was unquestionably worthy of the 1995 driving title, following which he moved to Ferrari, then a team in disarray and without a champion since Jody Scheckter in 1979. The Schumacher-Ferrari combination began promisingly with three wins in 1996 and five more in 1997, though that season ended in infamy when in the final race, at Jerez in Spain, Schumacher tried unsuccessfully to ram the Williams of his title rival Jacques Villeneuve off the road. As punishment for his misdemeanour Schumacher's second place in the championship was stricken from the record books he would thereafter begin to rewrite.

After finishing second overall in 1998, Schumacher's 1999 season was interrupted by a broken leg (the only injury of his career) incurred in crash at the British Grand Prix. From then on there was no stopping 'Schumi' - who in 2000 became Ferrari's first champion in 21 years, then went on to win the driving title for the next four seasons in succession. In 2002 he won 11 times and finished on the podium in all 17 races. In 2003 he broke Fangio's record by winning his sixth driving title. In 2004 he won 13 of the 18 races to secure his seventh championship by a massive margin. Disadvantaged by an off-the-pace Ferrari in 2005 he still managed third overall in the standings. In 2006 he finished his career with a flourish (though at Monaco he was found guilty of deliberately parking his Ferrari to prevent anyone from beating his qualifying time): extending his pole position record to 68 (Ayrton Senna had 65), scoring seven victories to bring his total to 91 (40 more than his nearest rival, Alain Prost) and nearly winning yet another driving title.

Like all the great drivers Schumacher had exceptional ambition, confidence, intelligence, motivation, dedication and determination. What set him apart and helped account for his unprecedented length of time at the top of his profession was a pure passion for racing and an endless quest for improvement. Blessed with a supreme natural talent, he had a racing brain to match, possessing spare mental capacity that enabled him to make split-second decisions, adapt to changing circumstances and plan ahead while driving on the limit, which with his superb state of fitness (he trained harder than any driver) he was easily able to do for lap after lap. The smoothly swift and mechanically-aware driver operated with a keen sensitivity for the limits of his car and himself (he made comparatively few mistakes) and his feedback to his engineers (led by technical director Ross Brawn who worked with him throughout his career) was exceptionally astute.

No Ferrari driver worked harder for the team, nor were any of them more appreciated than the German who led the famous Italian Scuderia to six successive Constructors' Championships. He led by example, frequently visiting the factory at Maranello, talking to the personnel, thanking them, encouraging them, never criticising and invariably inspiring everyone with his optimism, high energy level and huge work ethic. The team was totally devoted to the driver who often said he loved the Ferrari ‘family’.

Life with his own family - wife Corinna and their children Gina-Maria and Mick - was deliberately kept as normal as possible (the children never came to the races) and held sacred by the essentially shy and private man who reluctantly became one of the most famous sportsmen in the world. Rich beyond his wildest dreams (he reportedly earned as much as US$100 million a year), he generously supported charities, especially those for underprivileged children, and to help victims of the 2004 Asian tsunami disaster he made a personal donation of US$10 million.

In his last season the 37-year-old driver who had made Formula One racing his personal playground was still at the peak of his powers. No champion had been so excellent for so long, but Michael Schumacher finally grew tired of the effort necessary to continue to excel and decided to quit while he was still ahead - so far ahead that his achievements are unlikely to ever be surpassed.

Yet his retirement proved to be only temporary. In 2010, after a three-year hiatus as a consultant to Ferrari, 41-year-old Michael Schumacher succumbed to the lure of driving for the new Mercedes GP team headed by Ross Brawn.

Text - Gerald Donaldson



Really great article! :up:
Schumi the king, a living legend and a true champion.


#12283 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,633 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:12

I'm not going to take a reply seriously from a guy who makes race results up now am i? Please get your facts right, Schumacher didn't even finish in Argentina, and if he did he would have been at maximum only 3 places ahead of Irvine as Eddie finished 4th.

Ah, that's a bad one for me. I mistook qualifying results for race results there. To make up for it to you, I looked up a race report on video ().

What does it show? Schumacher running in a solid second place before DNF'ing with big reliability issues at about 60% of the race. Irvine wandering down in P8, before moving up to fifth (not FOURTH :wave: ) only three seconds ahead of the true miracle that day in sixth: Jos Verstappen in a do... Excuse me, Arrows. So, your point being?

Edited by Jejking, 11 August 2011 - 20:14.


#12284 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,877 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:17

Guys, it's a difference of opinion. Really--you all seem to be trying to convince each other that the way you see it is better than the way somebody else sees it by using your own perceptions to support your argument. That almost never works, because you all obviously see things differently--and, to quote Reservoir Dogs, "Nobody knows each other so they never back down."

All we have to go on is that Schumacher won in the 90's and he's not winning now. End of story. Yes, I know it's not as simple as all that, and we all have our opinions as to why. That's great, but not when you have a problem with somebody else's opinion merely because you disagree with it. You think it would've been different in the 90's with today's competition? Fine. You think it would be different now if Schumacher had a better car? Fine. Somebody disagrees with you? Fine--agree to disagree and move on. It honestly doesn't seem to me like any form of stimulating discussion is happening in the thread at the moment because we've been beating the same dead horse for something like five pages now.

*ahem*

How many of you think Schumacher is going to finish out his contract with MGP? Any indications he might cut his contract short by a year, or even race past 2012? I thought the recent stir-up in the media about this was interesting.


A good post, but I notice that not much heed has been taken. Anyhew, Niki Lauda had an interesting take on it.

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/56388.html

I suppose one has to get into the mindset of a 7 time WDC. I'm sure, and I've said this before, that he still has the skill necessary to win, but does he have the 'drive'? I think he could finish out 2012, but beyond that? Anyone's guess.

#12285 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:25

Ah, that's a bad one for me. I mistook qualifying results for race results there. To make up for it to you, I looked up a race report on video ().

What does it show? Schumacher running in a solid second place before DNF'ing with big reliability issues at about 60% of the race. Irvine wandering down in P8, before moving up to fifth (not FOURTH :wave: ) only three seconds ahead of the true miracle that day in sixth: Jos Verstappen in a do... Excuse me, Arrows. So, your point being?


My point being that in 96 before Schumacher had full control of the team and car it was not the fairytale you guys imagine where Schumacher is dragging a dog of a car to the front whereas Irvine is at the back nowhere to be seen

#12286 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,828 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:28

My point being that in 96 before Schumacher had full control of the team and car it was not the fairytale you guys imagine where Schumacher is dragging a dog of a car to the front whereas Irvine is at the back nowhere to be seen

one could say the same things if comparing the first races between alonso and massa at ferrari

#12287 GerhardBerger

GerhardBerger
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:53

My point being that in 96 before Schumacher had full control of the team and car it was not the fairytale you guys imagine where Schumacher is dragging a dog of a car to the front whereas Irvine is at the back nowhere to be seen


actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.

#12288 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,633 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:00

actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.

Mwa, for the first part of your sentence something can be said. I simply cannot believe Todt only found out in late '96 he struck gold with Schumacher. That must have been a hell of a lot earlier, Ferrari tried to lure him away in 1994 if I recall correctly.

The Irvine part is (sadly) true.

#12289 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:01

one could say the same things if comparing the first races between alonso and massa at ferrari


I'm not disputing that claim at all, it must be extremely demoralising to know you are a clear no 2

#12290 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,975 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:10

actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.


In 1997, Ross and Rory came to Ferrari.

Edited by George Costanza, 12 August 2011 - 03:42.


#12291 Jazza

Jazza
  • Member

  • 1,104 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:15

actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.


MS was on something like 50 million, and Eddie was on about 3! They were not supposed to be two equal drivers brought in to see who would get ahead. Ferrari brought in reigning and double WDC MS (The only WDC in the sport mind you) in to win, and paid big time for him. They already new just how good and motivated he was in 95, hence the insane and unprecedented pay check.

At the first week of testing they had something like 5 cars for only MS to drive, and not 1 for Eddie Irvine. It was no secret at the time that Eddie was just there to drive the second car, and got almost no testing whatsoever in 96. As years went on he got much more time in the car and started to perform much better (hence why he was right with MS in the championship points race in 99 when Schumacher broke his leg).

Michael was undisputed number 1 from day 1. This has never even been in debate. If anything he actually lost a bit of control as time went on. But it is not like Jean got to the start of 97 and said; "you know, this guy is better than I though. I think we should give him all of our support."




#12292 George Costanza

George Costanza
  • Member

  • 2,975 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:45

MS was on something like 50 million, and Eddie was on about 3! They were not supposed to be two equal drivers brought in to see who would get ahead. Ferrari brought in reigning and double WDC MS (The only WDC in the sport mind you) in to win, and paid big time for him. They already new just how good and motivated he was in 95, hence the insane and unprecedented pay check.

At the first week of testing they had something like 5 cars for only MS to drive, and not 1 for Eddie Irvine. It was no secret at the time that Eddie was just there to drive the second car, and got almost no testing whatsoever in 96. As years went on he got much more time in the car and started to perform much better (hence why he was right with MS in the championship points race in 99 when Schumacher broke his leg).

Michael was undisputed number 1 from day 1. This has never even been in debate. If anything he actually lost a bit of control as time went on. But it is not like Jean got to the start of 97 and said; "you know, this guy is better than I though. I think we should give him all of our support."



It was clear that when he signed with Ferrari at the 1995 season, that he was going to transform it, soon enough, Brawn and Byrne came over. Ross could have very well stayed at Benetton his whole time; but felt that he needed a new challenge with Ferrari.

Another thing about that season, if he went to Williams, which I don't recall if he gotten any offers (I am not sure if he ever did from Williams) then would Ross and Rory would have never went to Williams, since they had Newey and Head there with Schu; which would have been a dream team in its own right.... Possibly Renault would have stayed longer or Williams gets Mercedes engines or do they wait for BMW? Or he could have easily stayed wiith Benetton in 1996 and 1997 (winning titles in those seasons).

Many ideas....

Edited by George Costanza, 12 August 2011 - 03:54.


#12293 mrmusicman

mrmusicman
  • Member

  • 276 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 12 August 2011 - 07:44

Another quality post. Two reasons - better drivers today, and his decline. Car has nothing to do with it, or wait - could be that we have a third reason?


Many drivers of today raced when Michael was at his best, and they don't suddenly suck like Michael does.

#12294 mrmusicman

mrmusicman
  • Member

  • 276 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 12 August 2011 - 07:48

Another good way to ignore the fact that what you posted is complete toss about Irvine being "close" in 96.

MS was a way off NR for the 1st half of 2010, since then he's been a lot closer, not in qualifying, but in general race pace.


He was also quite close to nico's race pace in his first driver for mercedes at bahtain 2010. I don't think anything has ever changed between them in terms of pace, as it usually never does between team mates. He is sometimes close to nico and sometimes much slower. Speed never changes between drivers once its established no matter the excuses you hear.

#12295 GerhardBerger

GerhardBerger
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:38

MS was on something like 50 million, and Eddie was on about 3! They were not supposed to be two equal drivers brought in to see who would get ahead. Ferrari brought in reigning and double WDC MS (The only WDC in the sport mind you) in to win, and paid big time for him. They already new just how good and motivated he was in 95, hence the insane and unprecedented pay check.

At the first week of testing they had something like 5 cars for only MS to drive, and not 1 for Eddie Irvine. It was no secret at the time that Eddie was just there to drive the second car, and got almost no testing whatsoever in 96. As years went on he got much more time in the car and started to perform much better (hence why he was right with MS in the championship points race in 99 when Schumacher broke his leg).

Michael was undisputed number 1 from day 1. This has never even been in debate. If anything he actually lost a bit of control as time went on. But it is not like Jean got to the start of 97 and said; "you know, this guy is better than I though. I think we should give him all of our support."


Lovely post, but i wasn't talking about whether he was clear number 1 or not. Made little difference though since he was almost always faster than Irvine.

What I was talking about was when he got full control of the team so that it could be built around him - this is when he was allowed to bring in his buddies from Benetton (Brawn, Byrne, Czapski, Tombazis etc.).

#12296 GerhardBerger

GerhardBerger
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:43

He was also quite close to nico's race pace in his first driver for mercedes at bahtain 2010. I don't think anything has ever changed between them in terms of pace, as it usually never does between team mates. He is sometimes close to nico and sometimes much slower. Speed never changes between drivers once its established no matter the excuses you hear.


Hakkinen/Coulthard? Massa/Raikonnen?

#12297 Jazza

Jazza
  • Member

  • 1,104 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:49

Lovely post, but i wasn't talking about whether he was clear number 1 or not. Made little difference though since he was almost always faster than Irvine.

What I was talking about was when he got full control of the team so that it could be built around him - this is when he was allowed to bring in his buddies from Benetton (Brawn, Byrne, Czapski, Tombazis etc.).


Fair enough. I mistook your comment about Jean not realizing until 97 just how good and motivated Schumacher was as referring to his driving talent, when you meant his team work. My mistake.

#12298 GerhardBerger

GerhardBerger
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:54

Fair enough. I mistook your comment about Jean not realizing until 97 just how good and motivated Schumacher was as referring to his driving talent, when you meant his team work. My mistake.


No worries. You're right on the number 1/number 2 status.

From the archives:

"This year's Ferrari team will be an interesting one to watch. Irvine has always said that Schumacher is the best driver in the world. But, are his off-season comments about following team orders genuine? Will he not only let but also help Schumacher win? Perhaps."

#12299 mrmusicman

mrmusicman
  • Member

  • 276 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 12 August 2011 - 09:31

Hakkinen/Coulthard? Massa/Raikonnen?


Massa and Kimi were always evenly matched in pace. It's true that mika did have some ups and down like the first half of 1997 when David dominated him, and in 2001, but these were short periods and I think exceptions to the rule.

Advertisement

#12300 Frans

Frans
  • Member

  • 7,701 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:30

In my eyes it's crystal clear.

Schumacher never was the greatest, and now he doesn't have moving over team mates (and other teams with the engine's of the team he drove for). He always already did it in plain sight, and one could chose to like it or dislike it. I chose the later, and saw for what he and it was. A fraud. A hoaxer and often cheated and got caught as well. Hmmmm

But hey, ... there are also people who liked Tyson eating an ear during a boxing match, right? Well, ... it's all a matter of perception. But in F1, the winner is NOT, I repeat, is not the "best" .