Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20789 replies to this topic

#12251 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,453 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:19

you guys do make me chuckle saying that qualifying is not important in the Mercedes nowadays because of it being a poor car. You same guys then are the ones who are making the point of Schumacher out qualifying Irvine in the 96 Ferrari which as you guys state was a dog of a car, just like this years Mercedes. So going by what you guys keep banging on about, qualifying behind Schumacher was no big deal in that hideous Ferrari of 96



Yeah. The only difference is 15 years, different manufacturer, different rules, different quali.

Great comparison. :lol:

And you again don't understand why the comparison of quali pace is more difficult in a Merc. It's not because it's a poor car.


I've stated my opinions and il stand by them, that Schumacher was a top level driver back in his heyday. But I do believe since then the elite of the current crop of drivers have taken the sport to another level and Michael is finding that out for himself. I'm sorry if I've upset you guys, no hard feelings


Or it could be that the crop of drivers was the same level as today and Schumacher was above them.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 13:21.


Advertisement

#12252 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,752 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:21

Schumacher in 2010 + 2011 is no different than the -90:ies Schumacher.
What I´ve seen in his "second career" confirms what I´ve always thought of him.
He´s a good driver, great car control, good racing skils, very tough racer,
a hard defender and a driver whom tries to intimidate his opponets.
But he lacks the ultimate pace, maybe because he wants the car to behave like
a oversteering gokart and he does stupid things when he´s under pressure and
when his teammate is faster than him. I fully understand today why he wanted/demanded
exclusive #1 status and an 1b teammate.

He would have looked great in 2010 and 2011 too if Rosberg was treated like Irvine.

#12253 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:27

Schumacher in 2010 + 2011 is no different than the -90:ies Schumacher.
What I´ve seen in his "second career" confirms what I´ve always thought of him.
He´s a good driver, great car control, good racing skils, very tough racer,
a hard defender and a driver whom tries to intimidate his opponets.

But he lacks the ultimate pace, maybe because he wants the car to behave like
a oversteering gokart and he does stupid things when he´s under pressure and
when his teammate is faster than him. I fully understand today why he wanted/demanded
exclusive #1 status and an 1b teammate.

He would have looked great in 2010 and 2011 too if Rosberg was treated like Irvine.


Comedy, how did he lack the "ultimate pace" in Hungary 98, or France 04... maybe we should say he lacked it in Brazil 06... oh wait, he caught up nearly 1minute after the puncture. Foolish statement, like saying Senna sucked in the rain cos he wiped out in Oz 89.

Your 2nd part could almost be applied to Lewis Hamilton......

Irvine once commented after Malaysia 99, where Schumacher basically had to park it every 5 laps to let everyone catch up.... "He's not only the best Number 1, he's the best number 2 driver as well". Given how much cash Irvine got from Ferrari, I'd guess he was quite happy to be behind MS the vast majority of the time.

#12254 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:29

Yeah. The only difference is 15 years, different manufacturer, different rules, different quali.

Great comparison. :lol:

And you again don't understand why the comparison of quali pace is more difficult in a Merc. It's not because it's a poor car.




Or it could be that the crop of drivers was the same level as today and Schumacher was above them.


Maybe you are right but lastyear and this year are telling me otherwise

#12255 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,453 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:37

Maybe you are right but lastyear and this year are telling me otherwise

Well, invent a time machine, put the current top on the grid in the 90's and we'll have an aswer.

But i see no reason to believe that in the 90's there was a sudden drop in driver quality.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 13:38.


#12256 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,752 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:45

Comedy, how did he lack the "ultimate pace" in Hungary 98, or France 04... maybe we should say he lacked it in Brazil 06... oh wait, he caught up nearly 1minute after the puncture. Foolish statement, like saying Senna sucked in the rain cos he wiped out in Oz 89.

Your 2nd part could almost be applied to Lewis Hamilton......

Irvine once commented after Malaysia 99, where Schumacher basically had to park it every 5 laps to let everyone catch up.... "He's not only the best Number 1, he's the best number 2 driver as well". Given how much cash Irvine got from Ferrari, I'd guess he was quite happy to be behind MS the vast majority of the time.


Fact is that Schumacher was always slow in Hungary, this year included. It was also proven that Schumachers race in -98 wasn´t that fast either.
Villeneuve and Ralf? was actually faster considering their equipment. Schumachers so called fast stint also included an spin which
costed him 5-10 seconds IIRC. ie it wasn´t so fast..

France -04, sorry but Im not impressed when 1 driver on the grid has a car like a RedBull 2010 while the others have STR on worse tires.

Brazil 2006 was the result of having the fastest car / tire combo. Massa was 1 second quicker than Alonso in qualifying and he was cruising
in the race. He even let MS past to unlap himself during one stage.

Eddie Irvine wasn´t among the best drivers and he became a winner in -99 when MS was absent. He was also outraced by Mika Salo
in Germany. Yes, by Mika Salo.


#12257 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:46

Well, invent a time machine, put the current top on the grid in the 90's and we'll have an aswer.

But i see no reason to believe that in the 90's there was a sudden drop in driver quality.


Time goes forward and things improve with time, it's called evolution. The path into formula one with the lower categories is more competitive than it ever as been. Michael has stated this before in an interview, il try to find it for you guys. I think it might be when Schumacher talks about hamilton

#12258 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,453 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:51

Time goes forward and things improve with time, it's called evolution. The path into formula one with the lower categories is more competitive than it ever as been. Michael has stated this before in an interview, il try to find it for you guys. I think it might be when Schumacher talks about hamilton


True. That's why you have to analyse things in context.

So why are you then comparing a 2011 Nico with a 1996 Michael?

It's a trap

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 13:53.


#12259 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:55

Fact is that Schumacher was always slow in Hungary, this year included. It was also proven that Schumachers race in -98 wasn´t that fast either.
Villeneuve and Ralf? was actually faster considering their equipment. Schumachers so called fast stint also included an spin which
costed him 5-10 seconds IIRC. ie it wasn´t so fast..

France -04, sorry but Im not impressed when 1 driver on the grid has a car like a RedBull 2010 while the others have STR on worse tires.

Brazil 2006 was the result of having the fastest car / tire combo. Massa was 1 second quicker than Alonso in qualifying and he was cruising
in the race. He even let MS past to unlap himself during one stage.

Eddie Irvine wasn´t among the best drivers and he became a winner in -99 when MS was absent. He was also outraced by Mika Salo
in Germany. Yes, by Mika Salo.


Hungary 98, Schumacher had to make up 20 seconds in 20 laps - approximately - even with the slide wide at the final corner, he still came out 3-4 secs ahead of the McLarens, granted DC was held behind Hakkinen for 2-3 laps, but even so... if you fail to appreciate that stint, then I wonder what does impress you?

MS sat behind FA in the Renault (not a STR by any stretch in 2004 - to suggest so indicates complete flamebaiting), again, they tried a strategy switch, could MS make up a stop in 15-20 laps.... yes, and he won. Hardly unimpressive even if the Ferrari did have a large advantage that season... after all, where was RB in this? Battling Trulli for 3rd... brilliant!

Brazil 06, yes of course he had the quickest car, but he still made up a minute on drivers such as JB, FA & Raikkonen..... none of whom were cruising!

Irvine got outdriven by Salo - cherry pick 1 race out of the 7 or so Salo drove that season.... and whilst Salo was far from top class, he was hardly Ricardo Rosset! Irvine by his own admission was a class below the top guys, but he got 4 wins - mainly through McLaren unreliability - nobody honestly believes MS wouldn't have been a better contender in 99 but for his crash in GB.

You can make your opinions but what you provided was just that, an opinion. Don't see real hard evidence for MS just being a good driver, but nothing special in the 1st part of his career though.

Advertisement

#12260 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 13:59

True. That's why you have to analyse things in context.

So why are you then comparing a 2011 Nico with a 1996 Michael?

It's a trap


It's you guys who say that the 96 Schumacher would wipe the floor with Rosberg of today, I don't think he would tbh. I think Nico would have the speed edge on him. I think Michael is the better racer of the two but he also makes more mistakes and is slower

#12261 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,453 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:04

It's you guys who say that the 96 Schumacher would wipe the floor with Rosberg of today, I don't think he would tbh. I think Nico would have the speed edge on him. I think Michael is the better racer of the two but he also makes more mistakes and is slower

Did Nico showed anything in his career (speed, race craft etc.) that warants your opinion that he would beat a prime Michael? And what mistakes are you talking about ? Remember who you are comparing. Michael in the 90 had brilliant speed and made rare mistakes.


You just said one post above that things change over time. So why insist that 2011 has any relevance to 1996.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 August 2011 - 14:08.


#12262 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:06

Did Nico showed anything in his career (speed, race craft etc.) that warants your opinion that he would beat a prime Michael? And what mistakes are you talking aboutx ? Remember who you are comparing.


Well to be fair in 96 he did stuff it in the 1st lap at Monaco.. undoubtedly his error.... 95 he stuffed it at Imola.... cant' recall many else from those 2 years though, probably the best 2 years I can recall, though 97 & 98 were damn good as well.

#12263 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,453 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:12

Well to be fair in 96 he did stuff it in the 1st lap at Monaco.. undoubtedly his error.... 95 he stuffed it at Imola.... cant' recall many else from those 2 years though, probably the best 2 years I can recall, though 97 & 98 were damn good as well.

Everyone makes mistakes. Was he more mistake prone than others, that's the question in reply to what spa said.

#12264 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,752 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:19

Hungary 98, Schumacher had to make up 20 seconds in 20 laps - approximately - even with the slide wide at the final corner, he still came out 3-4 secs ahead of the McLarens, granted DC was held behind Hakkinen for 2-3 laps, but even so... if you fail to appreciate that stint, then I wonder what does impress you?

MS sat behind FA in the Renault (not a STR by any stretch in 2004 - to suggest so indicates complete flamebaiting), again, they tried a strategy switch, could MS make up a stop in 15-20 laps.... yes, and he won. Hardly unimpressive even if the Ferrari did have a large advantage that season... after all, where was RB in this? Battling Trulli for 3rd... brilliant!

Brazil 06, yes of course he had the quickest car, but he still made up a minute on drivers such as JB, FA & Raikkonen..... none of whom were cruising!

Irvine got outdriven by Salo - cherry pick 1 race out of the 7 or so Salo drove that season.... and whilst Salo was far from top class, he was hardly Ricardo Rosset! Irvine by his own admission was a class below the top guys, but he got 4 wins - mainly through McLaren unreliability - nobody honestly believes MS wouldn't have been a better contender in 99 but for his crash in GB.

You can make your opinions but what you provided was just that, an opinion. Don't see real hard evidence for MS just being a good driver, but nothing special in the 1st part of his career though.


I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly? It was just like in Turkey 2010, when Webber and Vettel clashed it opened up an opportunity for MS to grab the 3:rd spot. He had been cruising and holding up Rosberg for more than half the race, all of a sudden he upped the pace with 1 second
per lap. If he had driven at that pace from the beginning he would have grabbed that podium. Do you follow?

In Hungary 1998 he obviously had an very fast car but as I said, other drivers did an even more impressive race (like Villenueve, Hill etc)
but the get totally unnoticed and fausly an myth gets created by Mikas mech problems, Ross tactical skills and Michaels upped pace.

If we look at Brazil again, making up a 1 minute on FA, JB and Kimi isn´t really impressive if you have a car which is 1 second faster every lap now is it?




#12265 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:21

Everyone makes mistakes. Was he more mistake prone than others, that's the question in reply to what spa said.


Well let's not forget the 2 mistakes he made at Adelaide 94 one of those did hand him the title though

#12266 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:26

For me it's great to watch Michael race because it won't last forever.Enjoy it while you can.

Yes,and most guys his age are in midlife crisis buying Lambos and Ferraris etc.....................he's driving F1 cars :wave:

Let it be!

#12267 Fortymark

Fortymark
  • Member

  • 5,752 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:32

For me it's great to watch Michael race because it won't last forever.Enjoy it while you can.

Yes,and most guys his age are in midlife crisis buying Lambos and Ferraris etc.....................he's driving F1 cars :wave:

Let it be!


I don´t complain!
2010, 2011 is a dream come true. I´ve always wanted to see what Schumacher
could do without all those extra bits. Now we have equal engines, same non tailor made tires
no gizmos and a field full of talented drivers. Can he hold up the myth? Is he "head n´shoulders"
above the other drivers?

#12268 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:32

[quote name='Fortymark' date='Aug 11 2011, 10:19' post='5225513']
I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly?

Quite possibly the lamest post I've read today - and I've read several on the LH/JB thread so you're in wonderful company!

I see you're a member of the Rubens fanclub - that's an epic whinge - and a huge stretch to say team mates were slowed down (maybe on 2 or 3 occasions - notably Austria 02) but an everyday occurence? You're fooling yourself.

Why didn't he do the quick laps all the time at Hungary 98.... well let's see... could it have been because he had his face up the arse of the McLarens exhausts???? Come on, surely you can't be making that your evidence for this. It's ridiculous. The whole reason for the strategy change was because passing was looking very difficult, if not impossible. So they swapped to a non-optional strategy and he pulled out 20 qualifying style laps - you know what they are right? It's where you take more chances to go quicker... in a race back then you'd rarely finish if you tried doing maximum pace all the time so it did have a possible negative, indeed as already mentioned MS dropped it on the final corner and got away with it.

I can see you're entrenched in your (questionable) position so I'll listen to those who advise me to avoid the trolls/flame baiters. I think it's a shame you can't pay credit where credit is clearly due.


#12269 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,216 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:46

Posts deleted.

Please stop trolling and please cut out the personal attacks.

If you're here stirring up the hornets next, please do not be surprised if you get stung. While a subjective view may have some merit, if you insist on pushing it without due consideration of either the facts or others views, you should not expect to retain your posting privileges.

If you decide to attack a poster rather than their arguments, you should not expect to retain your posting privileges. Instead you should report the posts. Calling someone a 'troll' or a 'fanboy' (or their various synonyms) with little further elaboration is a personal attack.

One sure way of avoiding having to see opposing views is to put posters on ignore.

#12270 GerhardBerger

GerhardBerger
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 14:59

Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael


They are far apart, and you shouldn't discount the reliability of the car - that is part of the reason why the car was not very good. Schumacher suffered i think 6 DNFs due to reliablity issues.

As for Rosberg achieving better results than Schumi in the 96 Ferrari, you're assuming that a drivers level of performance remains constant throughout their career. This is obviously not true.

So in conclusion i have to ask, where are the facts?

Edited by GerhardBerger, 11 August 2011 - 15:01.


#12271 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:33

They are far apart, and you shouldn't discount the reliability of the car - that is part of the reason why the car was not very good. Schumacher suffered i think 6 DNFs due to reliablity issues.

As for Rosberg achieving better results than Schumi in the 96 Ferrari, you're assuming that a drivers level of performance remains constant throughout their career. This is obviously not true.

So in conclusion i have to ask, where are the facts?


This is becoming a vicious circle now and quite boring tbh, Schumacher was the best of his era no doubt, even though I think if senna survived things would have been different. There is no evidence however to suggest he is far off ability wise from his peak and saying so is just simple assumptions

#12272 GerhardBerger

GerhardBerger
  • Member

  • 510 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:50

This is becoming a vicious circle now and quite boring tbh, Schumacher was the best of his era no doubt, even though I think if senna survived things would have been different. There is no evidence however to suggest he is far off ability wise from his peak and saying so is just simple assumptions


By the same token there's no evidence to suggest that he is as good as he was at his peak. Trying to categorically prove or disprove something like that is almost impossible because there are so many variables.

However, the fact that Schumacher hasn't achieved a single podium, let alone a race win since his comeback would suggest he is not as good as he used to be (i think Schumacher achieved at least one race win in every season from 92-06, and of course multiple podiums).

#12273 Buttoneer

Buttoneer
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 16,216 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 11 August 2011 - 15:58

This is becoming a vicious circle now and quite boring tbh, Schumacher was the best of his era no doubt, even though I think if senna survived things would have been different. There is no evidence however to suggest he is far off ability wise from his peak and saying so is just simple assumptions

By the same token there's no evidence to suggest that he is as good as he was at his peak. Trying to categorically prove or disprove something like that is almost impossible because there are so many variables.

Don't these two pretty much sum up the last five pages?

edit; Although somewhat more politely.

#12274 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:10

However, the fact that Schumacher hasn't achieved a single podium, let alone a race win since his comeback would suggest he is not as good as he used to be (i think Schumacher achieved at least one race win in every season from 92-06, and of course multiple podiums).


How many podiums and wins were achieved by NR in the same car?
We do not know if Alonso or Hamilton would end up any better than Schumacher, and any claims to the contrary are just speculation.

Conclusion that Schumacher is not as good as he used to be based on his current record is rather bizzar logic under those circumstances.

#12275 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:17

By the same token there's no evidence to suggest that he is as good as he was at his peak. Trying to categorically prove or disprove something like that is almost impossible because there are so many variables.

However, the fact that Schumacher hasn't achieved a single podium, let alone a race win since his comeback would suggest he is not as good as he used to be (i think Schumacher achieved at least one race win in every season from 92-06, and of course multiple podiums).


There are two explanations for his poor performances these last two years, one is he is past his best or the other is the drivers of today are better than his competition when he was at his peak. I think it could be a mixture of both, the one thing nobody expected is him getting destroyed in qualifying the way he has been. I hope for his sake that he as a Stella weekend, with a strong qualifying and race. Sadly though I can't see it happening tbh

#12276 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:28

There are two explanations for his poor performances these last two years, one is he is past his best or the other is the drivers of today are better than his competition when he was at his peak. I think it could be a mixture of both, the one thing nobody expected is him getting destroyed in qualifying the way he has been. I hope for his sake that he as a Stella weekend, with a strong qualifying and race. Sadly though I can't see it happening tbh


Another quality post. Two reasons - better drivers today, and his decline. Car has nothing to do with it, or wait - could be that we have a third reason?

#12277 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:37

Another quality post. Two reasons - better drivers today, and his decline. Car has nothing to do with it, or wait - could be that we have a third reason?


What are you talking about? Plz explain. Nico is driving the same car and is doing a better job, he his not happy with the car just like Michael isn't

#12278 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:43

Look at the results where both Schumacher and Irvine finished, they don't seem to be so far apart. Well the fact Is Rosberg is wiping the floor with Schumacher so I'd say with 99.9% certainty that if he drove that car in that era he would have achieved better results than Michael

:lol: All credibility is lost.
Your first sentence is ridiculous he destroyed Irvine.
Why does rosberg beating an over the hill 42 year old who had a 3 year break out of formula 1, who clearly isnt the same driver he was prove that he would beat schumacher in his prime in 96.


#12279 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • Member

  • 3,199 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:50

What are you talking about? Plz explain. Nico is driving the same car and is doing a better job, he his not happy with the car just like Michael isn't

Guys, it's a difference of opinion. Really--you all seem to be trying to convince each other that the way you see it is better than the way somebody else sees it by using your own perceptions to support your argument. That almost never works, because you all obviously see things differently--and, to quote Reservoir Dogs, "Nobody knows each other so they never back down."

All we have to go on is that Schumacher won in the 90's and he's not winning now. End of story. Yes, I know it's not as simple as all that, and we all have our opinions as to why. That's great, but not when you have a problem with somebody else's opinion merely because you disagree with it. You think it would've been different in the 90's with today's competition? Fine. You think it would be different now if Schumacher had a better car? Fine. Somebody disagrees with you? Fine--agree to disagree and move on. It honestly doesn't seem to me like any form of stimulating discussion is happening in the thread at the moment because we've been beating the same dead horse for something like five pages now.

*ahem*

How many of you think Schumacher is going to finish out his contract with MGP? Any indications he might cut his contract short by a year, or even race past 2012? I thought the recent stir-up in the media about this was interesting.

Advertisement

#12280 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 16:54

:lol: All credibility is lost.
Your first sentence is ridiculous he destroyed Irvine.
Why does rosberg beating an over the hill 42 year old who had a 3 year break out of formula 1, who clearly isnt the same driver he was prove that he would beat schumacher in his prime in 96.


When they both finished in the same races there finishing positions were not too far apart on the whole. I'm not answering your question as I've answered it a thousand times, can you prove he wouldn't beat the Schumacher of 96? I think we should all agree to disagree

#12281 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:10

There are two explanations for his poor performances these last two years, one is he is past his best or the other is the drivers of today are better than his competition when he was at his peak. I think it could be a mixture of both, the one thing nobody expected is him getting destroyed in qualifying the way he has been. I hope for his sake that he as a Stella weekend, with a strong qualifying and race. Sadly though I can't see it happening tbh

The drivers aren't better quantity has gone up not quality has not. The driver that is said to be the most complete driver aka alonso was in competition with schumacher in 06 for the drivers championship.
They can't be better some of them where there in 06.
alonso
button
trulli
heideld
barrichello
webber
kubica
Rosberg
Massa


#12282 EdwardCullen

EdwardCullen
  • Member

  • 763 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:16

Great article on www.formula1.com home page..... Michael Schumacher: HALL OF FAME
Posted Image
http://www.formula1....hall_of_fame/7/

World Championships 7
Grand Prix Entries 280
Grand Prix Wins 91
Pole Positions 68
Nationality German


History
Since the Formula One World Championship began in 1950 the title has been won by 32 different drivers, 14 of whom won more than one championship. Of the previous multiple champions the most prolific was Juan Manuel Fangio, whose record of five titles stood for five decades until it was eclipsed by the most dominant driver in the history of the sport. By the time he retired, still the man to beat after 16 seasons at the top, Michael Schumacher had seven driving titles and held nearly every record in the book by a considerable margin. Though his ethics were sometimes questionable, his sheer brilliance behind the wheel was never in dispute.

The most extraordinary driver's origins were most ordinary. He was born on 3 January, 1969, near Cologne, Germany, six years before his brother Ralf, who would also become a Formula One driver. Their father, a bricklayer, ran the local kart track, at Kerpen, where Mrs Schumacher operated the canteen. As a four-year old Michael enjoyed playing on a pedal kart, though when his father fitted it with a small motorcycle engine the future superstar promptly crashed into a lamppost. But Michael soon mastered his machine and won his first kart championship at six, following which his far from affluent parents arranged sponsorship from wealthy enthusiasts that enabled Michael to make rapid progress. By 1987 he was German and European kart champion and had left school to work as an apprentice car mechanic, a job that was soon replaced by full-time employment as a race driver. In 1990 he won the German F3 championship and was hired by Mercedes to drive sportscars. The next year he made a stunning Formula One debut, qualifying an astonishing seventh in a Jordan for the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa, whereupon he was immediately snapped up by Benetton, where in 1992 he won his first Formula One race, again at Spa, the most demanding circuit of them all.

Over the next four seasons with Benetton he won a further 18 races and two world championships. His first, in 1994, was somewhat tainted in that Benetton was suspected of technical irregularities and in their championship showdown race in Adelaide Schumacher collided (deliberately, some thought) with his closest challenger, the Williams of Damon Hill. But Germany's first world champion was unquestionably worthy of the 1995 driving title, following which he moved to Ferrari, then a team in disarray and without a champion since Jody Scheckter in 1979. The Schumacher-Ferrari combination began promisingly with three wins in 1996 and five more in 1997, though that season ended in infamy when in the final race, at Jerez in Spain, Schumacher tried unsuccessfully to ram the Williams of his title rival Jacques Villeneuve off the road. As punishment for his misdemeanour Schumacher's second place in the championship was stricken from the record books he would thereafter begin to rewrite.

After finishing second overall in 1998, Schumacher's 1999 season was interrupted by a broken leg (the only injury of his career) incurred in crash at the British Grand Prix. From then on there was no stopping 'Schumi' - who in 2000 became Ferrari's first champion in 21 years, then went on to win the driving title for the next four seasons in succession. In 2002 he won 11 times and finished on the podium in all 17 races. In 2003 he broke Fangio's record by winning his sixth driving title. In 2004 he won 13 of the 18 races to secure his seventh championship by a massive margin. Disadvantaged by an off-the-pace Ferrari in 2005 he still managed third overall in the standings. In 2006 he finished his career with a flourish (though at Monaco he was found guilty of deliberately parking his Ferrari to prevent anyone from beating his qualifying time): extending his pole position record to 68 (Ayrton Senna had 65), scoring seven victories to bring his total to 91 (40 more than his nearest rival, Alain Prost) and nearly winning yet another driving title.

Like all the great drivers Schumacher had exceptional ambition, confidence, intelligence, motivation, dedication and determination. What set him apart and helped account for his unprecedented length of time at the top of his profession was a pure passion for racing and an endless quest for improvement. Blessed with a supreme natural talent, he had a racing brain to match, possessing spare mental capacity that enabled him to make split-second decisions, adapt to changing circumstances and plan ahead while driving on the limit, which with his superb state of fitness (he trained harder than any driver) he was easily able to do for lap after lap. The smoothly swift and mechanically-aware driver operated with a keen sensitivity for the limits of his car and himself (he made comparatively few mistakes) and his feedback to his engineers (led by technical director Ross Brawn who worked with him throughout his career) was exceptionally astute.

No Ferrari driver worked harder for the team, nor were any of them more appreciated than the German who led the famous Italian Scuderia to six successive Constructors' Championships. He led by example, frequently visiting the factory at Maranello, talking to the personnel, thanking them, encouraging them, never criticising and invariably inspiring everyone with his optimism, high energy level and huge work ethic. The team was totally devoted to the driver who often said he loved the Ferrari ‘family’.

Life with his own family - wife Corinna and their children Gina-Maria and Mick - was deliberately kept as normal as possible (the children never came to the races) and held sacred by the essentially shy and private man who reluctantly became one of the most famous sportsmen in the world. Rich beyond his wildest dreams (he reportedly earned as much as US$100 million a year), he generously supported charities, especially those for underprivileged children, and to help victims of the 2004 Asian tsunami disaster he made a personal donation of US$10 million.

In his last season the 37-year-old driver who had made Formula One racing his personal playground was still at the peak of his powers. No champion had been so excellent for so long, but Michael Schumacher finally grew tired of the effort necessary to continue to excel and decided to quit while he was still ahead - so far ahead that his achievements are unlikely to ever be surpassed.

Yet his retirement proved to be only temporary. In 2010, after a three-year hiatus as a consultant to Ferrari, 41-year-old Michael Schumacher succumbed to the lure of driving for the new Mercedes GP team headed by Ross Brawn.

Text - Gerald Donaldson

Edited by EdwardCullen, 11 August 2011 - 17:24.


#12283 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,298 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:30

I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly? It was just like in Turkey 2010, when Webber and Vettel clashed it opened up an opportunity for MS to grab the 3:rd spot. He had been cruising and holding up Rosberg for more than half the race, all of a sudden he upped the pace with 1 second
per lap. If he had driven at that pace from the beginning he would have grabbed that podium. Do you follow?

In Hungary 1998 he obviously had an very fast car but as I said, other drivers did an even more impressive race (like Villenueve, Hill etc)
but the get totally unnoticed and fausly an myth gets created by Mikas mech problems, Ross tactical skills and Michaels upped pace.

If we look at Brazil again, making up a 1 minute on FA, JB and Kimi isn´t really impressive if you have a car which is 1 second faster every lap now is it?



Hill and Villenueve more impressive in Hungry in 1998 than Schmacher. What planet are you on. :rotfl:

#12284 Andy865

Andy865
  • Member

  • 2,447 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 17:57

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11

#12285 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:12

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11


Interesting; do not know what to think of it. He might be tired of talking to technical staff, and getting no results. Lost of enthusiasm to continue in that mode might be different today for him than it was then in uncompetitive Ferrari.

#12286 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:15

When they both finished in the same races there finishing positions were not too far apart on the whole. I'm not answering your question as I've answered it a thousand times, can you prove he wouldn't beat the Schumacher of 96? I think we should all agree to disagree

On the whole no that's clearly not true.
When your teamate has missed six races then comes back and outqualifies you by 1 second, on the whole that means your far apart.

#12287 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,542 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:21

I have no doubts Schumacher knows he is the problem. Last year he was too slow due to the tyres. This year he is making mistakes in a majority of the races, three times resulting in damage. The net result is all the same, he is behind Britney over the course of two entire WDCs. Even one is unprecedented. Despite his calm attitude on the outside, I am sure he is severely hurting on the inside.

Then again, he is calling the shots. Mercedes are not going to fire him if he says no. If he leaves at the end of the year, it will be like Red Bull did with Coulthard, and let him announce his retirement first before announcing his replacement. If he fancies another go next year, he will get it, but all the evidence points towards that there is a fundamental trade-off between pace and mistakes.

#12288 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:25

On the whole no that's clearly not true.
When your teamate has missed six races then comes back and outqualifies you by 1 second, on the whole that means your far apart.


We was discussing the year of 1996 not 1999 which by then Irvine knew his place in the team

#12289 zelpre

zelpre
  • Member

  • 275 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:40

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11


Lol c'mon what's with this press?! wtf?! It was all bullshit and Schumi's manager denied that already...

The article from Corriere dello Sport was also deleted few days ago but the stupid media is still translating this bullshit...some people are really sick, they don't know what to do in life


#12290 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:43

We was discussing the year of 1996 not 1999 which by then Irvine knew his place in the team


Yeah, Malaysia 99 he knew he had a shot at the title and the best driver in the world returning to back him up...... only he didn't think by "backing up" would have meant MS needing a good reverse gear.

Seriously, you initiate a debate with an opinion that can't ever be proved one way or another - though common sense could/should come into play really. Then announce you're bored with it because your opinion can't be proved negatively either. In other words, you drop the stink bomb, hang around to make sure the windows are all shut, then (try) to slip out of the door.

We've got 1 poster claiming NR is the new Boutsen showing how far MS has fallen.... you're claiming MS wasn't all that special and would have been beaten by NR in his 96era heyday.....

#12291 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:47

We was discussing the year of 1996 not 1999 which by then Irvine knew his place in the team

Even in 1996 he done the same thing to irvine.

#12292 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:49

I´ve never been impressed with Schumacher because I knew he had exclusive #1 status and that his teammate was slowed down. If he had an car which could
have been driven as quick as was the case in Hungary -98, how come he didn´t do it more regularly? It was just like in Turkey 2010, when Webber and Vettel clashed it opened up an opportunity for MS to grab the 3:rd spot. He had been cruising and holding up Rosberg for more than half the race, all of a sudden he upped the pace with 1 second
per lap. If he had driven at that pace from the beginning he would have grabbed that podium. Do you follow?

In Hungary 1998 he obviously had an very fast car but as I said, other drivers did an even more impressive race (like Villenueve, Hill etc)
but the get totally unnoticed and fausly an myth gets created by Mikas mech problems, Ross tactical skills and Michaels upped pace.

If we look at Brazil again, making up a 1 minute on FA, JB and Kimi isn´t really impressive if you have a car which is 1 second faster every lap now is it?

Schumacher did not all of a sudden up his pace in turkey by a second, just look at the lap times that's not true.

Schumachers drive in brazil was brillaint, his pace was amazing, when your only lapping about 4 tenths slower than your teamates even though you have 23 more laps of fuel onboard than him that's is impressive.

Do you have any proof his teamates were given slower cars than him ?
Your not impressed by schumacher because you dont want to be, your ignorant.


#12293 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:52

Even in 1996 he done the same thing to irvine.


You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

#12294 merschu

merschu
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 11 August 2011 - 18:57

Quite a negative sounding interview, Im unsure of the leading context.

http://www.topgear.c...ting-2011-08-11




Interesting; do not know what to think of it. He might be tired of talking to technical staff, and getting no results. Lost of enthusiasm to continue in that mode might be different today for him than it was then in uncompetitive Ferrari.



Everybody is just copying what "Corriere dello Sport" article said! Which has now been deleted! And Michael schumacher's Manager has denied this reports and has said that Schumi did not speak to Corriere dello Sport people since his comeback!

Here is the article of Michael Schumacher Manager denying this report:

Italy's Corriere dello Sport this week quoted the Mercedes driver as admitting that despite his 2012 contract, "I do not know if my mindset is right for this team".

But Bild newspaper quotes the seven time world champion's manager Sabine Kehm as dismissing the quotes as "All nonsense."Since he returned to F1, Michael has not spoken to anyone from Corriere dello Sport," she insisted.

Kehm clarified that her 42-year-old boss is not about to quit.

"He is full of passion for the project and regards it as an exciting challenge to build something big together with Mercedes."That it is sometimes tough only encourages him more," she said. "Someone who will soon celebrate their 20th anniversary in formula one knows that perseverance is what makes the difference."




http://www.f1reports.../article/12010/

#12295 zack1994

zack1994
  • Member

  • 2,368 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:09

You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

A few postition is not close in formula 1.


#12296 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:21

A few postition is not close in formula 1.


Yes you are right, Schumacher must have been a lifetime away from rosberg lastyear :rotfl:

#12297 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:26

Yes you are right, Schumacher must have been a lifetime away from rosberg lastyear :rotfl:


Another good way to ignore the fact that what you posted is complete toss about Irvine being "close" in 96.

MS was a way off NR for the 1st half of 2010, since then he's been a lot closer, not in qualifying, but in general race pace. And yes, he sacrificed some of his races last year for the benefit of NR - but that derails your point, whatever that is intended to be - so we'll gloss over it for you shall we?

NR has done some good "bring it home" races - completely anonymous of course - since Canada...... MS has had a couple of poor races, a DNF and suddenly he's a wanker.... no-one was saying that after Canada.

Let's see what goes on between now & the end of the season, then we'll know all about 2011. But it won't change the facts of MS between 91-06, no matter how much you try to spin it.

#12298 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,303 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:40

Lol c'mon what's with this press?! wtf?! It was all bullshit and Schumi's manager denied that already...

The article from Corriere dello Sport was also deleted few days ago but the stupid media is still translating this bullshit...some people are really sick, they don't know what to do in life

Yes! I was wondering the same thing this morning, why would someone at the TG staff approve such an article as it already has been officially dismissed :down:

You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

Brazil -4. Argentine -8. San Marino -2. Portugal -2 in the races where they both finished. Not (even) talking about the difference in time in the race, in qualifying it was varying between 0.4 and 1.5s. Result list also proves the Ferrari was one unreliable m*********er :/ But nevertheless, Irvine's list with crash/spin is impressive there. So can you give me the address of your pharmacist please. Those meds you are using must be one hell of a drug :drunk:

I think Schumacher was one of the reasons the sport professionalized in no-time, he worked extremely hard and I'm absolutely convinced Alonso is trying to pull off exactly the same trick. The man from Oviedo I find him to have a really lot in common with Schumacher, finding the latter to have the upperhand in self-confidence and agression, also Alonso isn't a bad cookie at that last one either. Fernando is one hell of a complete driver, except in my opinion he whines too much for things happening around him instead of dealing with it. That is the reason why I rate MSC higher than him and I find it an awful shame both didn't race each other in their real prime. I suspect Schumacher would have gone up to a really hard fight then.

Edited by Jejking, 11 August 2011 - 19:46.


#12299 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 19:47

Another good way to ignore the fact that what you posted is complete toss about Irvine being "close" in 96.

MS was a way off NR for the 1st half of 2010, since then he's been a lot closer, not in qualifying, but in general race pace. And yes, he sacrificed some of his races last year for the benefit of NR - but that derails your point, whatever that is intended to be - so we'll gloss over it for you shall we?

NR has done some good "bring it home" races - completely anonymous of course - since Canada...... MS has had a couple of poor races, a DNF and suddenly he's a wanker.... no-one was saying that after Canada.

Let's see what goes on between now & the end of the season, then we'll know all about 2011. But it won't change the facts of MS between 91-06, no matter how much you try to spin it.


Like I said when Irvine and Schumacher finished the same race together Irvine was generally only a few positions behind Schumacher in 1996, this is a FACT!

When have I called Michael a wanker??

I admit that this year michaels wheel to wheel racing as been much improved apart from a few silly errors but that's to be expected, but many of times lastyear and this year Michael as had a good start and I've been waiting for the old schumi magic to take over and see him fly through the field and nothing happens, he just drops further and further behind

You've got to admit that on the whole michaels qualifying pace as been dismal this last couple of years compared to Nico, I'm not having the excuse that Michael sets up the car for the race and nico more for qualifying. If that was the case where Is this blistering race pace compared to Nicos?

Advertisement

#12300 spa08

spa08
  • Member

  • 615 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:00

Yes! I was wondering the same thing this morning, why would someone at the TG staff approve such an article as it already has been officially dismissed :down:


Brazil -4. Argentine -8. San Marino -2. Portugal -2 in the races where they both finished. Not (even) talking about the difference in time in the race, in qualifying it was varying between 0.4 and 1.5s. Result list also proves the Ferrari was one unreliable m*********er :/ But nevertheless, Irvine's list with crash/spin is impressive there. So can you give me the address of your pharmacist please. Those meds you are using must be one hell of a drug :drunk:

I think Schumacher was one of the reasons the sport professionalized in no-time, he worked extremely hard and I'm absolutely convinced Alonso is trying to pull off exactly the same trick. The man from Oviedo I find him to have a really lot in common with Schumacher, finding the latter to have the upperhand in self-confidence and agression, also Alonso isn't a bad cookie at that last one either. Fernando is one hell of a complete driver, except in my opinion he whines too much for things happening around him instead of dealing with it. That is the reason why I rate MSC higher than him and I find it an awful shame both didn't race each other in their real prime. I suspect Schumacher would have gone up to a really hard fight then.


I'm not going to take a reply seriously from a guy who makes race results up now am i? Please get your facts right, Schumacher didn't even finish in Argentina, and if he did he would have been at maximum only 3 places ahead of Irvine as Eddie finished 4th.