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#12301 Jejking

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:04

Like I said when Irvine and Schumacher finished the same race together Irvine was generally only a few positions behind Schumacher in 1996, this is a FACT!

When have I called Michael a wanker??

I admit that this year michaels wheel to wheel racing as been much improved apart from a few silly errors but that's to be expected, but many of times lastyear and this year Michael as had a good start and I've been waiting for the old schumi magic to take over and see him fly through the field and nothing happens, he just drops further and further behind

You've got to admit that on the whole michaels qualifying pace as been dismal this last couple of years compared to Nico, I'm not having the excuse that Michael sets up the car for the race and nico more for qualifying. If that was the case where Is this blistering race pace compared to Nicos?

:clap: Calling for facts and then ignoring them when presented :clap: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So much for being in front, accidentally correcting yourself in the side of a Sauber in the middle of a wet corner, breaking a front wing, falling back, making a good tyre choice and then catching back up through traffic and even ending the race with less arrears than directly after the stop. And that's just Silverstone. So "we" have "not got" to admit anything. Slowly building more confidence up in him and I'm really curious if he's able to keep that more positive line drag on through the rest of the season and 2012 :up:

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#12302 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:08

You talk as though Schumacher was winning while Irvine was scrapping with the monkeys at the back, like I said look at the results in 96 where they both finished the same race and you'll find Irvine is normally only a few positions behind Michael with the exception of a couple of races

59-11 in points!
3rd vs 10th in the championship
what on earth are you on?!



#12303 zelpre

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:10

Great article on www.formula1.com home page..... Michael Schumacher: HALL OF FAME
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http://www.formula1....hall_of_fame/7/

World Championships 7
Grand Prix Entries 280
Grand Prix Wins 91
Pole Positions 68
Nationality German


History
Since the Formula One World Championship began in 1950 the title has been won by 32 different drivers, 14 of whom won more than one championship. Of the previous multiple champions the most prolific was Juan Manuel Fangio, whose record of five titles stood for five decades until it was eclipsed by the most dominant driver in the history of the sport. By the time he retired, still the man to beat after 16 seasons at the top, Michael Schumacher had seven driving titles and held nearly every record in the book by a considerable margin. Though his ethics were sometimes questionable, his sheer brilliance behind the wheel was never in dispute.

The most extraordinary driver's origins were most ordinary. He was born on 3 January, 1969, near Cologne, Germany, six years before his brother Ralf, who would also become a Formula One driver. Their father, a bricklayer, ran the local kart track, at Kerpen, where Mrs Schumacher operated the canteen. As a four-year old Michael enjoyed playing on a pedal kart, though when his father fitted it with a small motorcycle engine the future superstar promptly crashed into a lamppost. But Michael soon mastered his machine and won his first kart championship at six, following which his far from affluent parents arranged sponsorship from wealthy enthusiasts that enabled Michael to make rapid progress. By 1987 he was German and European kart champion and had left school to work as an apprentice car mechanic, a job that was soon replaced by full-time employment as a race driver. In 1990 he won the German F3 championship and was hired by Mercedes to drive sportscars. The next year he made a stunning Formula One debut, qualifying an astonishing seventh in a Jordan for the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa, whereupon he was immediately snapped up by Benetton, where in 1992 he won his first Formula One race, again at Spa, the most demanding circuit of them all.

Over the next four seasons with Benetton he won a further 18 races and two world championships. His first, in 1994, was somewhat tainted in that Benetton was suspected of technical irregularities and in their championship showdown race in Adelaide Schumacher collided (deliberately, some thought) with his closest challenger, the Williams of Damon Hill. But Germany's first world champion was unquestionably worthy of the 1995 driving title, following which he moved to Ferrari, then a team in disarray and without a champion since Jody Scheckter in 1979. The Schumacher-Ferrari combination began promisingly with three wins in 1996 and five more in 1997, though that season ended in infamy when in the final race, at Jerez in Spain, Schumacher tried unsuccessfully to ram the Williams of his title rival Jacques Villeneuve off the road. As punishment for his misdemeanour Schumacher's second place in the championship was stricken from the record books he would thereafter begin to rewrite.

After finishing second overall in 1998, Schumacher's 1999 season was interrupted by a broken leg (the only injury of his career) incurred in crash at the British Grand Prix. From then on there was no stopping 'Schumi' - who in 2000 became Ferrari's first champion in 21 years, then went on to win the driving title for the next four seasons in succession. In 2002 he won 11 times and finished on the podium in all 17 races. In 2003 he broke Fangio's record by winning his sixth driving title. In 2004 he won 13 of the 18 races to secure his seventh championship by a massive margin. Disadvantaged by an off-the-pace Ferrari in 2005 he still managed third overall in the standings. In 2006 he finished his career with a flourish (though at Monaco he was found guilty of deliberately parking his Ferrari to prevent anyone from beating his qualifying time): extending his pole position record to 68 (Ayrton Senna had 65), scoring seven victories to bring his total to 91 (40 more than his nearest rival, Alain Prost) and nearly winning yet another driving title.

Like all the great drivers Schumacher had exceptional ambition, confidence, intelligence, motivation, dedication and determination. What set him apart and helped account for his unprecedented length of time at the top of his profession was a pure passion for racing and an endless quest for improvement. Blessed with a supreme natural talent, he had a racing brain to match, possessing spare mental capacity that enabled him to make split-second decisions, adapt to changing circumstances and plan ahead while driving on the limit, which with his superb state of fitness (he trained harder than any driver) he was easily able to do for lap after lap. The smoothly swift and mechanically-aware driver operated with a keen sensitivity for the limits of his car and himself (he made comparatively few mistakes) and his feedback to his engineers (led by technical director Ross Brawn who worked with him throughout his career) was exceptionally astute.

No Ferrari driver worked harder for the team, nor were any of them more appreciated than the German who led the famous Italian Scuderia to six successive Constructors' Championships. He led by example, frequently visiting the factory at Maranello, talking to the personnel, thanking them, encouraging them, never criticising and invariably inspiring everyone with his optimism, high energy level and huge work ethic. The team was totally devoted to the driver who often said he loved the Ferrari ‘family’.

Life with his own family - wife Corinna and their children Gina-Maria and Mick - was deliberately kept as normal as possible (the children never came to the races) and held sacred by the essentially shy and private man who reluctantly became one of the most famous sportsmen in the world. Rich beyond his wildest dreams (he reportedly earned as much as US$100 million a year), he generously supported charities, especially those for underprivileged children, and to help victims of the 2004 Asian tsunami disaster he made a personal donation of US$10 million.

In his last season the 37-year-old driver who had made Formula One racing his personal playground was still at the peak of his powers. No champion had been so excellent for so long, but Michael Schumacher finally grew tired of the effort necessary to continue to excel and decided to quit while he was still ahead - so far ahead that his achievements are unlikely to ever be surpassed.

Yet his retirement proved to be only temporary. In 2010, after a three-year hiatus as a consultant to Ferrari, 41-year-old Michael Schumacher succumbed to the lure of driving for the new Mercedes GP team headed by Ross Brawn.

Text - Gerald Donaldson



Really great article! :up:
Schumi the king, a living legend and a true champion.


#12304 Jejking

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:12

I'm not going to take a reply seriously from a guy who makes race results up now am i? Please get your facts right, Schumacher didn't even finish in Argentina, and if he did he would have been at maximum only 3 places ahead of Irvine as Eddie finished 4th.

Ah, that's a bad one for me. I mistook qualifying results for race results there. To make up for it to you, I looked up a race report on video ().

What does it show? Schumacher running in a solid second place before DNF'ing with big reliability issues at about 60% of the race. Irvine wandering down in P8, before moving up to fifth (not FOURTH :wave: ) only three seconds ahead of the true miracle that day in sixth: Jos Verstappen in a do... Excuse me, Arrows. So, your point being?

Edited by Jejking, 11 August 2011 - 20:14.


#12305 jj2728

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:17

Guys, it's a difference of opinion. Really--you all seem to be trying to convince each other that the way you see it is better than the way somebody else sees it by using your own perceptions to support your argument. That almost never works, because you all obviously see things differently--and, to quote Reservoir Dogs, "Nobody knows each other so they never back down."

All we have to go on is that Schumacher won in the 90's and he's not winning now. End of story. Yes, I know it's not as simple as all that, and we all have our opinions as to why. That's great, but not when you have a problem with somebody else's opinion merely because you disagree with it. You think it would've been different in the 90's with today's competition? Fine. You think it would be different now if Schumacher had a better car? Fine. Somebody disagrees with you? Fine--agree to disagree and move on. It honestly doesn't seem to me like any form of stimulating discussion is happening in the thread at the moment because we've been beating the same dead horse for something like five pages now.

*ahem*

How many of you think Schumacher is going to finish out his contract with MGP? Any indications he might cut his contract short by a year, or even race past 2012? I thought the recent stir-up in the media about this was interesting.


A good post, but I notice that not much heed has been taken. Anyhew, Niki Lauda had an interesting take on it.

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/56388.html

I suppose one has to get into the mindset of a 7 time WDC. I'm sure, and I've said this before, that he still has the skill necessary to win, but does he have the 'drive'? I think he could finish out 2012, but beyond that? Anyone's guess.

#12306 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:25

Ah, that's a bad one for me. I mistook qualifying results for race results there. To make up for it to you, I looked up a race report on video ().

What does it show? Schumacher running in a solid second place before DNF'ing with big reliability issues at about 60% of the race. Irvine wandering down in P8, before moving up to fifth (not FOURTH :wave: ) only three seconds ahead of the true miracle that day in sixth: Jos Verstappen in a do... Excuse me, Arrows. So, your point being?


My point being that in 96 before Schumacher had full control of the team and car it was not the fairytale you guys imagine where Schumacher is dragging a dog of a car to the front whereas Irvine is at the back nowhere to be seen

#12307 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:28

My point being that in 96 before Schumacher had full control of the team and car it was not the fairytale you guys imagine where Schumacher is dragging a dog of a car to the front whereas Irvine is at the back nowhere to be seen

one could say the same things if comparing the first races between alonso and massa at ferrari

#12308 GerhardBerger

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 20:53

My point being that in 96 before Schumacher had full control of the team and car it was not the fairytale you guys imagine where Schumacher is dragging a dog of a car to the front whereas Irvine is at the back nowhere to be seen


actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.

#12309 Jejking

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:00

actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.

Mwa, for the first part of your sentence something can be said. I simply cannot believe Todt only found out in late '96 he struck gold with Schumacher. That must have been a hell of a lot earlier, Ferrari tried to lure him away in 1994 if I recall correctly.

The Irvine part is (sadly) true.

#12310 spa08

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:01

one could say the same things if comparing the first races between alonso and massa at ferrari


I'm not disputing that claim at all, it must be extremely demoralising to know you are a clear no 2

#12311 George Costanza

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Posted 11 August 2011 - 21:10

actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.


In 1997, Ross and Rory came to Ferrari.

Edited by George Costanza, 12 August 2011 - 03:42.


#12312 Jazza

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:15

actually Schumacher only really got full control of the team in 97, or at the very earliest, late in 96 when Jean Todt realised just how good and how motivated he was.

Irvine finished 10th in the championship. He was usually running around in the midfield rather than battling with the front runners.


MS was on something like 50 million, and Eddie was on about 3! They were not supposed to be two equal drivers brought in to see who would get ahead. Ferrari brought in reigning and double WDC MS (The only WDC in the sport mind you) in to win, and paid big time for him. They already new just how good and motivated he was in 95, hence the insane and unprecedented pay check.

At the first week of testing they had something like 5 cars for only MS to drive, and not 1 for Eddie Irvine. It was no secret at the time that Eddie was just there to drive the second car, and got almost no testing whatsoever in 96. As years went on he got much more time in the car and started to perform much better (hence why he was right with MS in the championship points race in 99 when Schumacher broke his leg).

Michael was undisputed number 1 from day 1. This has never even been in debate. If anything he actually lost a bit of control as time went on. But it is not like Jean got to the start of 97 and said; "you know, this guy is better than I though. I think we should give him all of our support."




#12313 George Costanza

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:45

MS was on something like 50 million, and Eddie was on about 3! They were not supposed to be two equal drivers brought in to see who would get ahead. Ferrari brought in reigning and double WDC MS (The only WDC in the sport mind you) in to win, and paid big time for him. They already new just how good and motivated he was in 95, hence the insane and unprecedented pay check.

At the first week of testing they had something like 5 cars for only MS to drive, and not 1 for Eddie Irvine. It was no secret at the time that Eddie was just there to drive the second car, and got almost no testing whatsoever in 96. As years went on he got much more time in the car and started to perform much better (hence why he was right with MS in the championship points race in 99 when Schumacher broke his leg).

Michael was undisputed number 1 from day 1. This has never even been in debate. If anything he actually lost a bit of control as time went on. But it is not like Jean got to the start of 97 and said; "you know, this guy is better than I though. I think we should give him all of our support."



It was clear that when he signed with Ferrari at the 1995 season, that he was going to transform it, soon enough, Brawn and Byrne came over. Ross could have very well stayed at Benetton his whole time; but felt that he needed a new challenge with Ferrari.

Another thing about that season, if he went to Williams, which I don't recall if he gotten any offers (I am not sure if he ever did from Williams) then would Ross and Rory would have never went to Williams, since they had Newey and Head there with Schu; which would have been a dream team in its own right.... Possibly Renault would have stayed longer or Williams gets Mercedes engines or do they wait for BMW? Or he could have easily stayed wiith Benetton in 1996 and 1997 (winning titles in those seasons).

Many ideas....

Edited by George Costanza, 12 August 2011 - 03:54.


#12314 mrmusicman

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 07:44

Another quality post. Two reasons - better drivers today, and his decline. Car has nothing to do with it, or wait - could be that we have a third reason?


Many drivers of today raced when Michael was at his best, and they don't suddenly suck like Michael does.

#12315 mrmusicman

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 07:48

Another good way to ignore the fact that what you posted is complete toss about Irvine being "close" in 96.

MS was a way off NR for the 1st half of 2010, since then he's been a lot closer, not in qualifying, but in general race pace.


He was also quite close to nico's race pace in his first driver for mercedes at bahtain 2010. I don't think anything has ever changed between them in terms of pace, as it usually never does between team mates. He is sometimes close to nico and sometimes much slower. Speed never changes between drivers once its established no matter the excuses you hear.

#12316 GerhardBerger

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:38

MS was on something like 50 million, and Eddie was on about 3! They were not supposed to be two equal drivers brought in to see who would get ahead. Ferrari brought in reigning and double WDC MS (The only WDC in the sport mind you) in to win, and paid big time for him. They already new just how good and motivated he was in 95, hence the insane and unprecedented pay check.

At the first week of testing they had something like 5 cars for only MS to drive, and not 1 for Eddie Irvine. It was no secret at the time that Eddie was just there to drive the second car, and got almost no testing whatsoever in 96. As years went on he got much more time in the car and started to perform much better (hence why he was right with MS in the championship points race in 99 when Schumacher broke his leg).

Michael was undisputed number 1 from day 1. This has never even been in debate. If anything he actually lost a bit of control as time went on. But it is not like Jean got to the start of 97 and said; "you know, this guy is better than I though. I think we should give him all of our support."


Lovely post, but i wasn't talking about whether he was clear number 1 or not. Made little difference though since he was almost always faster than Irvine.

What I was talking about was when he got full control of the team so that it could be built around him - this is when he was allowed to bring in his buddies from Benetton (Brawn, Byrne, Czapski, Tombazis etc.).

#12317 GerhardBerger

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:43

He was also quite close to nico's race pace in his first driver for mercedes at bahtain 2010. I don't think anything has ever changed between them in terms of pace, as it usually never does between team mates. He is sometimes close to nico and sometimes much slower. Speed never changes between drivers once its established no matter the excuses you hear.


Hakkinen/Coulthard? Massa/Raikonnen?

#12318 Jazza

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:49

Lovely post, but i wasn't talking about whether he was clear number 1 or not. Made little difference though since he was almost always faster than Irvine.

What I was talking about was when he got full control of the team so that it could be built around him - this is when he was allowed to bring in his buddies from Benetton (Brawn, Byrne, Czapski, Tombazis etc.).


Fair enough. I mistook your comment about Jean not realizing until 97 just how good and motivated Schumacher was as referring to his driving talent, when you meant his team work. My mistake.

#12319 GerhardBerger

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 08:54

Fair enough. I mistook your comment about Jean not realizing until 97 just how good and motivated Schumacher was as referring to his driving talent, when you meant his team work. My mistake.


No worries. You're right on the number 1/number 2 status.

From the archives:

"This year's Ferrari team will be an interesting one to watch. Irvine has always said that Schumacher is the best driver in the world. But, are his off-season comments about following team orders genuine? Will he not only let but also help Schumacher win? Perhaps."

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#12320 mrmusicman

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 09:31

Hakkinen/Coulthard? Massa/Raikonnen?


Massa and Kimi were always evenly matched in pace. It's true that mika did have some ups and down like the first half of 1997 when David dominated him, and in 2001, but these were short periods and I think exceptions to the rule.

#12321 Frans

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:30

In my eyes it's crystal clear.

Schumacher never was the greatest, and now he doesn't have moving over team mates (and other teams with the engine's of the team he drove for). He always already did it in plain sight, and one could chose to like it or dislike it. I chose the later, and saw for what he and it was. A fraud. A hoaxer and often cheated and got caught as well. Hmmmm

But hey, ... there are also people who liked Tyson eating an ear during a boxing match, right? Well, ... it's all a matter of perception. But in F1, the winner is NOT, I repeat, is not the "best" .

#12322 spacekid

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:45

If Carl Lewis turned up to the Olympics next year he wouldn't win a single medal.

Thats it then, 1984 was all just a big scam.

#12323 GerhardBerger

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 10:53


I'm sure Irvine and Barrichello were all actually faster than Schumacher but they always held back/let him through to make sure he won. Very smart tactics by Ferrari there, making the faster driver a number 2 driver.

Edited by GerhardBerger, 12 August 2011 - 10:54.


#12324 AirWebber

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:03

Schumacher never was the greatest, and now he doesn't have moving over team mates (and other teams with the engine's of the team he drove for). He always already did it in plain sight, and one could chose to like it or dislike it. I chose the later, and saw for what he and it was. A fraud. A hoaxer and often cheated and got caught as well. Hmmmm

Excluding the excess... what about Ross Brawn's hole in all this.

At Ferrari, Ross B guaranted that MS was always superior to Rubens B using all means available.

But at Mercedes, Ross B was the boss and invited MS to the team.
Possibly with the same handicaped conditions, isn't it?
We know that since MS came in, Ross B was demoted from full management of the team, because Ross B sold his shares to Mercedes.

So what went wrong ?
Is Mercedes interfering in favor of Nico ?
Avoiding special treatment to MS ?
Did Ross betray MS and exposed him ?

Edited by AirWebber, 12 August 2011 - 11:05.


#12325 zack1994

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:08

I'm sure Irvine and Barrichello were all actually faster than Schumacher but they always held back/let him through to make sure he won. Very smart tactics by Ferrari there, making the faster driver a number 2 driver.

:lol:

#12326 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:22

Well if Schumi does go it'll be interesting to see what affect it has on the driver's market, could be intriguing.

#12327 Johnrambo

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:25

Thats it then, 1984 was all just a big scam.


Well track&field in the 80's (and even today) could be said to have been one big scam. Just think of the records made during the time..One can only smile now. :)

#12328 zack1994

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:33

MS was on something like 50 million, and Eddie was on about 3! They were not supposed to be two equal drivers brought in to see who would get ahead. Ferrari brought in reigning and double WDC MS (The only WDC in the sport mind you) in to win, and paid big time for him. They already new just how good and motivated he was in 95, hence the insane and unprecedented pay check.

At the first week of testing they had something like 5 cars for only MS to drive, and not 1 for Eddie Irvine. It was no secret at the time that Eddie was just there to drive the second car, and got almost no testing whatsoever in 96. As years went on he got much more time in the car and started to perform much better (hence why he was right with MS in the championship points race in 99 when Schumacher broke his leg).

Michael was undisputed number 1 from day 1. This has never even been in debate. If anything he actually lost a bit of control as time went on. But it is not like Jean got to the start of 97 and said; "you know, this guy is better than I though. I think we should give him all of our support."

He was 6 points behind schumacher before the british gp but that was not on pace at all.
Eddie having more testing changed nothing, as after schumachers return he outqualified irvine by a second then outqualified irvine by 1.5 in japan and then finished ahead of him in the race by 1 minute and 35 seconds, so nothing changed.

#12329 baddog

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:34

With Michael's teammates it was amazing how according to people here they either had no testing or were forced to endlessly test tyres etc for Michael. Often at the same time.

#12330 Sakae

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 11:58

:lol:

Freedom of speech is a b***h sometimes.

#12331 GerhardBerger

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 12:33

Excluding the excess... what about Ross Brawn's hole in all this.

At Ferrari, Ross B guaranted that MS was always superior to Rubens B using all means available.

But at Mercedes, Ross B was the boss and invited MS to the team.
Possibly with the same handicaped conditions, isn't it?
We know that since MS came in, Ross B was demoted from full management of the team, because Ross B sold his shares to Mercedes.

So what went wrong ?
Is Mercedes interfering in favor of Nico ?
Avoiding special treatment to MS ?
Did Ross betray MS and exposed him ?


At Ferrari Schumacher was almost always quicker than Barrichello. It made sense to put him as number 1, even though they took the team orders a bit too far on occasion.

At Mercedes, Schumacher is slower than Rosberg, so it would make no sense to put him as number 1. Ross Brawn may have a great working relationship with Schumacher, but he's not stupid.


#12332 spa08

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 12:38

He was 6 points behind schumacher before the british gp but that was not on pace at all.
Eddie having more testing changed nothing, as after schumachers return he outqualified irvine by a second then outqualified irvine by 1.5 in japan and then finished ahead of him in the race by 1 minute and 35 seconds, so nothing changed.


Did you watch the Irvine interview on the B.B.C forum, Irvine was on the verge of winning Ferrari there first title in donkeys years, to say Schumacher would want this to happen is crazy.

#12333 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 13:14

With Michael's teammates it was amazing how according to people here they either had no testing or were forced to endlessly test tyres etc for Michael. Often at the same time.

Yeah that tickles. Sadly, Forix doesn't go back to 1996, but I wanted to check the 1996 version of events pasted earlier. The earliest I could go was 1999. Irvine was top by a long way in km's driven (having fixed legs help).

#12334 Spa95

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 13:19

Everybody is just copying what "Corriere dello Sport" article said! Which has now been deleted! And Michael schumacher's Manager has denied this reports and has said that Schumi did not speak to Corriere dello Sport people since his comeback!


http://www.google.co.....i-sul-ritiro/ <- Someone from Corriere dello Sport explains (not really) how the news ended up on their website. :drunk:

Edited by Spa95, 12 August 2011 - 13:20.


#12335 Nivra

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 13:42

Excluding the excess... what about Ross Brawn's hole in all this.

At Ferrari, Ross B guaranted that MS was always superior to Rubens B using all means available.

But at Mercedes, Ross B was the boss and invited MS to the team.
Possibly with the same handicaped conditions, isn't it?
We know that since MS came in, Ross B was demoted from full management of the team, because Ross B sold his shares to Mercedes.

So what went wrong ?
Is Mercedes interfering in favor of Nico ?
Avoiding special treatment to MS ?
Did Ross betray MS and exposed him ?

Simple!! Mercedes got a shock that with or without preferential treatment in MS favour.... Nico Rosberg still consistently gave him a thrashing on track. Merc & Shcumi got a reality check.

I think they realized it mid-way through 2010 when Merc & Brawn listened to MS and changed the cars design to suit him.... and that car turned out to be a disaster. In the process, they managed to screw Rosberg as well who had gotten Mercedes podium and great finishes until then.

For Mercedes, MS went from No.1 to Dud. Now all they have left is a 42 year old man with past glories. Nothing more.

Edited by Nivra, 12 August 2011 - 13:46.


#12336 Jazza

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 13:47

He was 6 points behind schumacher before the british gp but that was not on pace at all.
Eddie having more testing changed nothing, as after schumachers return he outqualified irvine by a second then outqualified irvine by 1.5 in japan and then finished ahead of him in the race by 1 minute and 35 seconds, so nothing changed.


Irvine was getting closer to Schumacher every year. By 99 and the few races before silverstone he was nearly at Schumachers speed. This lead to questions at the time about Schuamcher's state of mind. Many thought that he was perhaps burnt out from challenging at the front for so many years, and was no longer going as fast as he could. Irvine was also upsetting the cart that year, saying that he was going to race for the championship, and that he will not accept a number two contract in 2000 (this was all before silverstone). Certainly after he broke his leg and came back many considered the time out to be a refresher period for him, and that he was back to his best. Whatever the case, when Schumacher did come back, Irvine was now not at his best. He had been getting slower every race, making silly mistakes, and just seemed to be cracking under the championship pressure.

The obvious speed difference between Schumacher and Irvine after Michael's return was certainly not there before Silverstone. Maybe Schuamcher regained his old form or Eddie lost his (or maybe a combination of both). But certainly something changed.

#12337 EdwardCullen

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 13:49


I think they realized it mid-way through 2010 when Merc & Brawn listened to MS and changed the cars design to suit him.... and that car turned out to be a disaster. In the process, they managed to screw Rosberg as well who had gotten Mercedes podium and great finishes until then.

You got any source or link for the above claim?
or are you just making it up ?

#12338 spa08

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 14:31

Irvine was getting closer to Schumacher every year. By 99 and the few races before silverstone he was nearly at Schumachers speed. This lead to questions at the time about Schuamcher's state of mind. Many thought that he was perhaps burnt out from challenging at the front for so many years, and was no longer going as fast as he could. Irvine was also upsetting the cart that year, saying that he was going to race for the championship, and that he will not accept a number two contract in 2000 (this was all before silverstone). Certainly after he broke his leg and came back many considered the time out to be a refresher period for him, and that he was back to his best. Whatever the case, when Schumacher did come back, Irvine was now not at his best. He had been getting slower every race, making silly mistakes, and just seemed to be cracking under the championship pressure.

The obvious speed difference between Schumacher and Irvine after Michael's return was certainly not there before Silverstone. Maybe Schuamcher regained his old form or Eddie lost his (or maybe a combination of both). But certainly something changed.


In Japan 99 Eddie said he was 2 secs off the pace which was bizarre, I don't believe like Eddie Jordan said, that Ferrari gave Irvine all the support he needed to win the championship. Call me a conspiracy theorist, I do believe they purposely jeopardised his title bid as there's not a chance in the world that Irvine was that much slower than Michael on pace.

#12339 GerhardBerger

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 14:35

In Japan 99 Eddie said he was 2 secs off the pace which was bizarre, I don't believe like Eddie Jordan said, that Ferrari gave Irvine all the support he needed to win the championship. Call me a conspiracy theorist, I do believe they purposely jeopardised his title bid as there's not a chance in the world that Irvine was that much slower than Michael on pace.


This comment is quite strange coming from someone who supposedly only posts "facts".

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#12340 Nivra

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 14:45

You got any source or link for the above claim?
or are you just making it up ?

Mercedes changed their car's design midway through the 2010 season. If you followed the 2010 season, You don't need any source to confirm that. You have to go through the major upgrades that Mercedes did to understand that they indeed changed for the worse mid-season.

But anyways, since some people's IQ cannot be all great.... here's a source that will recall your 'hidden memory'-

Mercedes changing 2010 car to suit Schumi http://www.yallaf1.c...to-suit-schumi/
Apr.27 (GMM) Team boss Ross Brawn has confirmed that Michael Schumacher will race a different Mercedes chassis at next weekend’s Spanish grand prix.

“Michael needs to be able to lean heavily on the front of the car to make his driving style work,” Brawn added.

The Mercedes MGP W01 has not suited Schumi's style and the front end is set for some major mods
The front of the car has therefore been the focus of Mercedes’ big upgrade for Barcelona, featuring a longer wheelbase.
“We’ve got a modification of the car coming for Barcelona which puts us into a better range for the weight distribution we can achieve,” Brawn confirmed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Logically, MS had the most input for the said modification... so the blame for the design's disastrous results since it's introduction would naturally lie with MS.
Since the introduction of these new parts, the Mercedes results at the hands of Nico Rosberg turned for the worse... although he still continued to thrash MS in that very car. MS was anyways not doing any better... he just compounded Mercedes' problems.

He has so far failed Mercedes in all department.... Race Pace, Set-up, Technical Input & Design ideas. All he's doing is selling more T-shirts for Mercedes....
....in other words, a multi-million dollar Salesman.;)

Edited by Nivra, 12 August 2011 - 15:03.


#12341 Diablobb81

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:06

You do know that all the talk about the car being changed to suit Michael was BS? Everyone acknowledged that. You might need to search Rosberg quotes on that.

But all the crap that is said here...

Edited by Diablobb81, 12 August 2011 - 15:10.


#12342 MightyMoose

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:07

Did you watch the Irvine interview on the B.B.C forum, Irvine was on the verge of winning Ferrari there first title in donkeys years, to say Schumacher would want this to happen is crazy.


Yeah he didn't want him to win at all.... I mean he KNEW the Ferrari's were "illegal" in Malaysia so he pissed about all race allowing Irvine to catch him, hold up Mika, go fast, slow down, go fast, slow down. That way not only does he show that he could play a supporting role he also didn't actually ever have to concede the victory as the FIA were sure to disqualify Ferarri anyway.... oh......

I can just picture MS's reaction.... you mean we're legal? I lost a victory to Irvine? Plus I have to help him again in Japan.... not a chance.... I'll make him crash in Practice, the spare car is mine - damn no it's not..... oh well, he sucks balls anyway. Mika will win, and next year I'll do it and then I'll hog ALL the titles till the FIA change the rules. That'll show Irvine.

#12343 MightyMoose

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:10

The Mercedes MGP W01 has not suited Schumi's style and the front end is set for some major mods
The front of the car has therefore been the focus of Mercedes’ big upgrade for Barcelona, featuring a longer wheelbase.
“We’ve got a modification of the car coming for Barcelona which puts us into a better range for the weight distribution we can achieve,” Brawn confirmed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nice flame baiting, I assume you edited/left out the part where NR said he liked the new longer wheelbase, it was a necessary fix to the MERCs issues.

At least post something close to the truth and not an edited part where you can then have your dig.

#12344 Buttoneer

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:11

Logically, MS had the most input for the said modification... so the blame for the design's disastrous results since it's introduction would naturally lie with MS.

No, Rosberg has stated that he has a similar driving style to Schumie so they had to change the car to better suit both drivers.

#12345 EdwardCullen

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:17

Mercedes changed their car's design midway through the 2010 season. If you followed the 2010 season, You don't need any source to confirm that. You have to go through the major upgrades that Mercedes did to understand that they indeed changed for the worse mid-season.

But anyways, since some people's IQ cannot be all great.... here's a source that will recall your 'hidden memory'-

Mercedes changing 2010 car to suit Schumi http://www.yallaf1.c...to-suit-schumi/
Apr.27 (GMM) Team boss Ross Brawn has confirmed that Michael Schumacher will race a different Mercedes chassis at next weekend’s Spanish grand prix.

“Michael needs to be able to lean heavily on the front of the car to make his driving style work,” Brawn added.

The Mercedes MGP W01 has not suited Schumi's style and the front end is set for some major mods
The front of the car has therefore been the focus of Mercedes’ big upgrade for Barcelona, featuring a longer wheelbase.
“We’ve got a modification of the car coming for Barcelona which puts us into a better range for the weight distribution we can achieve,” Brawn confirmed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Logically, MS had the most input for the said modification... so the blame for the design's disastrous results since it's introduction would naturally lie with MS.
Since the introduction of these new parts, the Mercedes results at the hands of Nico Rosberg turned for the worse... although he still continued to thrash MS in that very car. MS was anyways not doing any better... he just compounded Mercedes' problems.

He has so far failed Mercedes in all department.... Race Pace, Set-up, Technical Input & Design ideas. All he's doing is selling more T-shirts for Mercedes....
....in other words, a multi-million dollar Salesman.;)

Well nice try, to twist the truth
But here is a real source of the upgrades from SCRABSF1 and not from a yallaf1.com garbage!
http://scarbsf1.word...te-predictions/

Even from the cars early days in testing, Mercedes have had problems with the MGP W01 and Ross Brawn himself has been candid with the cars problems. Fundamentally the car has the wrong weight\aero bias, with it being too far to the front. Last year one of Brawns strengths was its extreme forward weight bias, typified by the large slab of ballast in the front splitter, when the wider front slicks rewarded a +49% bias towards the front. This year the tyres changed, the front tyres being 25mm narrower with a 20mm narrower tread, the rear tyres were also stiffened to cope with the heavy fuel loads. Most teams perceived the loss of grip from the rear tyre change would not offset to loss in front end grip from the narrower front tyre. Perhaps Mercedes (nee Brawn) felt the tyres would still favour a high percentage of weight towards the front, indeed the car still sports a significant slab of ballast in the front splitter. At the last race the cars inherent weaknesses were exhibited by Michael Schumacher, who had both understeer and a chronic lack of rear grip, leading to poor traction in the wet and overwork rear tyres in the dry. In Schumacher’s case his driving style tends to favour oversteer, while Rosberg is able to better cope with lack of turn-in and understeer the Bridgestone’s provide. This trait of the Bridgestone front tyres has been present since the shift to a single tyre supply, which has only worsened with the move to slicks and now narrower slicks.

Tyres work within a window of ideal vertical load. This load comes from weight distribution and downforce, simplistically the former affects low speed grip and the latter higher speed grip. Teams need to balance the static weight distribution and downforce front to rear to suit the tyres. A graph of load versus grip for a tyre will see significant drops either end of the scale as the tyre fails to work when either over or under loaded. It seem that Mercedes have too much load on the front tyres which will see them give up grip as the tyres gets too heavily loaded, this induces understeer. Conversely they have too little load at the rear which will compromise traction off the line and out of slow turns, but also induce oversteer. Having both ends of the car with incorrectly loaded tyres loads, will produce a car lacking in balance. The team could reduce grip at the rear to balance the car, but will then have a car lacking in grip.

Although drivers favour certain degrees of understeer or oversteer depending on their driving style, both prefer this to with consistent balance and grip. The differences in car set up between drivers are very subtle, its unlikely that one driver will have a significantly different weight\aero balance front to rear compared to another, certainly not to the level where one driver runs a different layout or wheelbase. the changes will be in small differences to; suspension, wing angle and\or ballast placement.

In Mercedes case, they have tried to shift weight rearwards; this is limited by the team’s ability to find areas to house the slabs of tungsten\densamet within the tight confines of the gearbox. An area now compromised due to the packaging of the double diffuser. To shift weight distribution 1% needs a shift of 10Kg from one axle to the other, obviously space at the axle line is limited, and so potential a greater weight within the wheelbase may be needed to achieve the same effect.

If ballast placement is not going to do the trick, which appears to be the case with the W01. Then the team are facing a layout change. Which means the front and\or rear axles will need to be shifted forwards relative to the chassis. Something that could be done either by new front suspension moving the front wheels forward, or the same at the rear. The rear option could also be achieved with a shorter gearbox. Gearbox lengths have extended in previous years to push weight forwards, thus there is scope to reduce their length without having to resort to all new gear and internals.

According to the informed rumours, Mercedes will opt for a blend of front suspension changes mated to a shorter gearbox. In the process extending the wheelbase. Many in the media have highlighted the changes as a wheelbase change as the solution to the balance problem, but the extended wheel base is largely a function of the shifting the axles. It is not in itself the primary solution to their problems.

Shifting weight also demands a shift in aero balance, for Mercedes this means more rear downforce. this cannot come purely from more rear wing angle as the drag that produces will slow straight lien speeds. So ideally greater diffuser development is needed. the team have been quick to get a passive F-duct running, this will certainly aid the ability to run more rear end downforce, but they must be careful its benefit is not eaten up by the need to run more rear wing or sales they will lose the advantage it gives other teams.

It now transpires that the F-duct rear wing on the W01 in China was passive device. There remains the development of the ducting towards the cockpit and a tip-off suggests this is tied to a reshape of the roll structure. How the ducting then reaches the rear wing may be either via a shark fin or up through the rear wing support. Although Brawn tested a sharkfin briefly in 2009 on the BGP001, the team have yet to race a version of it, making them somewhat behind the times and lacking experience in how the taller bodywork reacts on track.

At least one area not a concern for the team will be their mirrors, which are already cockpit mounted and not subject to the repositioning facing some of their rivals (RBR & Ferrari).

We can expect a very different W01 to appear for the next race, we will cover the developments as soon as the car breaks cover in the days preceding the race.


Read the entire post from a technical genius

#12346 spa08

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:31

This comment is quite strange coming from someone who supposedly only posts "facts".


Have I made this up out of thin air? I'm telling you what Irvine said. Why would he lie? He had already admitted that most of the time Schumacher was quicker. If it was false don't you think Ross Brawn, Jean Todt and Michael Schumacher would comment on it to save face?

#12347 spa08

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:40

Yeah he didn't want him to win at all.... I mean he KNEW the Ferrari's were "illegal" in Malaysia so he pissed about all race allowing Irvine to catch him, hold up Mika, go fast, slow down, go fast, slow down. That way not only does he show that he could play a supporting role he also didn't actually ever have to concede the victory as the FIA were sure to disqualify Ferarri anyway.... oh......

I can just picture MS's reaction.... you mean we're legal? I lost a victory to Irvine? Plus I have to help him again in Japan.... not a chance.... I'll make him crash in Practice, the spare car is mine - damn no it's not..... oh well, he sucks balls anyway. Mika will win, and next year I'll do it and then I'll hog ALL the titles till the FIA change the rules. That'll show Irvine.


With or without Michaels help in Japan, Eddie wouldn't have won the title as he was strangely 2 secs of the pace. If you believe that Irvine was 2 secs a lap slower than Michael in equal equipment you'll believe anything. Like Eddie stated it's very strange when he's in a Ferrari he was 2 secs off Michael and when he was in a shitty jaguar he was only 7 tenths off, bizarre don't you think?

#12348 EdwardCullen

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:43

With or without Michaels help in Japan, Eddie wouldn't have won the title as he was strangely 2 secs of the pace. If you believe that Irvine was 2 secs a lap slower than Michael in equal equipment you'll believe anything. Like Eddie stated it's very strange when he's in a Ferrari he was 2 secs off Michael and when he was in a shitty jaguar he was only 7 tenths off, bizarre don't you think?

again where do you get this 2 sec off comment, and where do you get teh 0.7 sec off comment
plz post the link here

#12349 Nivra

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:47

No, Rosberg has stated that he has a similar driving style to Schumie so they had to change the car to better suit both drivers.

Fundamentally, the MGP01 had definite flaws for sure. I do know that it was changed because of a lot of issues related to the car for both drivers.

MS did have more input in the design and changes over Rosberg, as Mercedes has openly mentioned his experience, technical input & race pace were primary reasons for hiring a 42 year old retired driver. If he didn't have more say in how the new parts must behave, MS experience would then be redundant. It's hard to believe otherwise.

So the question really stands as to why Rosberg was able to get better results in that Mercedes over MS, pre-&-post upgrade?

It is hard to imagine that Rosberg isn't a better, fitter & faster driver of the two currently since they came together in 2010. Rosberg doesn't need any credit, his results in both cars + 2011 contains ample evidence that MS is hanging on because of his Name & past glories.

That's not to say MS couldn't have beaten Rosberg pre-2006. It's just in the present, Mercedes are having to answer negative questions regarding MS since the start of 2010, which isn't the right focus for the whole team for sure. It's a weird distraction at the moment for the team. More a burden than the second coming.

Edited by Nivra, 12 August 2011 - 15:47.


#12350 fieraku

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 15:57

In my eyes it's crystal clear.

Schumacher never was the greatest, and now he doesn't have moving over team mates (and other teams with the engine's of the team he drove for). He always already did it in plain sight, and one could chose to like it or dislike it. I chose the later, and saw for what he and it was. A fraud. A hoaxer and often cheated and got caught as well. Hmmmm

But hey, ... there are also people who liked Tyson eating an ear during a boxing match, right? Well, ... it's all a matter of perception. But in F1, the winner is NOT, I repeat, is not the "best" .

:lol:

Another analogy...............
Tiger Woods never was a great,and now that he doesn't b@ng 12 exotic kittens his true talent is showing.He always already did it in plain sight, and one could chose to like it or dislike it. I chose the later, and saw for what he and it was. A fraud. A hoaxer and often cheated and got caught as well. Hmmmm

Peace ;)