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#12451 sharo

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 10:48

Schumacher's back is to the wall. He over-compensates, he makes mistakes and we have seen the end results.

In the past, the critics were still there but he had the best car (or near enough) and he was much sharper and he could silence them with the victories.

Those days are gone I'm afraid and the media and critics alike are having a field day.

I'd use "~phobes" to summarize.

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#12452 Sakae

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 11:05

Schumacher's back is to the wall. He over-compensates, he makes mistakes and we have seen the end results.

In the past, the critics were still there but he had the best car (or near enough) and he was much sharper and he could silence them with the victories.

Those days are gone I'm afraid and the media and critics alike are having a field day.

There is a solution to your pain - walk away, or watch something or someone else.

#12453 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 11:11

There is a solution to your pain - walk away, or watch something or someone else.




Hahahah, what a dumb response. I wasn't criticising your uber-hero. Look at my posts, they're all in the Schumacher threads. I'm probably a bigger fan than you.

However, I'm also a realist. He isn't as good as he used to be and he won't recapture the same glory; not by making silly mistakes, not by failing to beat Rosberg consistently and not in this flawed car designed by a Mickey Mouse team.


Why should I walk away? I'm no glory supporter. Stop being so defensive.


Accept reality.


Be real man. :up:

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 19 August 2011 - 11:12.


#12454 puxanando

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 11:17

Schumacher's back is to the wall. He over-compensates, he makes mistakes and we have seen the end results.

In the past, the critics were still there but he had the best car (or near enough) and he was much sharper and he could silence them with the victories.

Those days are gone I'm afraid and the media and critics alike are having a field day.

:up:

#12455 fieraku

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 13:13

However, I'm also a realist. He isn't as good as he used to be and he won't recapture the same glory; not by making silly mistakes, not by failing to beat Rosberg consistently and not in this flawed car designed by a Mickey Mouse team.

Find me one post of even his biggest supporter that claims such.


#12456 Group B

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 13:36

Find me one post of even his biggest supporter that claims such.

Indeed. I can't begin to imagaine why anyone expects MS 2011 to be as fast as MS 2000, when A) he's 43 years old, B) he was already slowing down by the mid 2000s, C) he's returned from retirement to considerably different cars from those he most excelled in 15 years ago.

#12457 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 13:44

Find me one post of even his biggest supporter that claims such.


The biggest supporters are not the problem; it is the sychophants and the fanboys - some of their excuses can be read on here on virtually every page.



#12458 fieraku

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 13:52

The biggest supporters are not the problem; it is the sychophants and the fanboys - some of their excuses can be read on here on virtually every page.


Yes like his detractors wanting him to retire. You know why? Because deep inside they know that "god forbid" he gets a decent car,he'll be on the podium and possibly win. He was a few rain drizzles away in Canada.

#12459 sharo

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 16:00

The biggest supporters are not the problem; it is the sychophants and the fanboys - some of their excuses can be read on here on virtually every page.

People who have followed him for 20 years now can hardly be called fanboys :p
It's the schumiphobes who spoil the thread seeing a chance to take a bite at him, denying his achievements and neglecting the reality.
Real supporters, and I count myself as such, have a realistic view and simply enjoy his presence. Which BTW, at his age is an achievement by itself.

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#12460 Number62

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 16:26

People who have followed him for 20 years now can hardly be called fanboys :p
It's the schumiphobes who spoil the thread seeing a chance to take a bite at him, denying his achievements and neglecting the reality.
Real supporters, and I count myself as such, have a realistic view and simply enjoy his presence. Which BTW, at his age is an achievement by itself.


I guess what rankles with the detractors (I'm one) is that you can't have your cake and eat it too, or to put it another way you can't have any of these:

Schumi is head and shoulders the best we've ever had + he's only lost a tiny bit of speed + Rosberg is a journeyman. Or

Schumi could win in any car + the cars crap now + the cars too easy to drive + the tyres don't suit him. Or

Schumi needs a car that suits him + MGP should design the car aroung Schumi + Rosberg doesn't know how to develop a car. Or

Qualifying doesn't matter + if he wasn't near Petrov he'd have less accidents + he makes great starts and overtakes more than Rosberg.

Too many mutually exclusives.

If he was once the fastest, as most believe, then he has lost a lot of overall performance and it's valid to question whether he is in F1 on merit or lifetime achievement credits. It's also fine for those who have stated, honestly, that they just enjoy watching him regardless of how he does.

Edited by Number62, 19 August 2011 - 16:30.


#12461 Tardis40

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 16:39

People who have followed him for 20 years now can hardly be called fanboys :p
It's the schumiphobes who spoil the thread seeing a chance to take a bite at him, denying his achievements and neglecting the reality.
Real supporters, and I count myself as such, have a realistic view and simply enjoy his presence. Which BTW, at his age is an achievement by itself.


It's jealously, plain and simple. No other driver will ever be able to top Michael's lifetime achievements, so the only recourse is to try to deny them.


#12462 Afterburner

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 16:44

I guess what rankles with the detractors (I'm one) is that you can't have your cake and eat it too, or to put it another way you can't have any of these:

...

If he was once the fastest, as most believe, then he has lost a lot of overall performance and it's valid to question whether he is in F1 on merit or lifetime achievement credits. It's also fine for those who have stated, honestly, that they just enjoy watching him regardless of how he does.

Great post, and fair point. :up: You're probably the most balanced 'detractor' of a driver that I've ever seen--I didn't realise you didn't like Schumi until now. :p

#12463 ivand911

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 16:49

I'm probably a bigger fan than you.

And, I am probably bigger fan than both of you. :rotfl: :wave:
For the fans- just except what the great man give us.
For others- they know what to do. I just can't write it here. :p

Edited by ivand911, 19 August 2011 - 16:49.


#12464 Diablobb81

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 16:51

If he was once the fastest, as most believe, then he has lost a lot of overall performance and it's valid to question whether he is in F1 on merit or lifetime achievement credits. It's also fine for those who have stated, honestly, that they just enjoy watching him regardless of how he does.



But the question is : even if he lost speed, what he has now is it enough for him to be on merit in F1? So based on the last 1 and half seasons do you think he deserves to be in F1?

Edited by Diablobb81, 19 August 2011 - 16:52.


#12465 Number62

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 17:04

But the question is : even if he lost speed, what he has now is it enough for him to be on merit in F1? So based on the last 1 and half seasons do you think he deserves to be in F1?


No.

I believe MGP could hire cheaper drivers who would be faster than Schumi and push Rosberg harder.

If i'm proven wrong I will come here with humility but at some point everyone will reach their own point when it's time for him to go. For some it was after 2 or 3 races in 2010, for me it was at the end of 2010, others are still keeping the faith.

#12466 Diablobb81

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 17:09

No.

I believe MGP could hire cheaper drivers who would be faster than Schumi and push Rosberg harder.

If i'm proven wrong I will come here with humility but at some point everyone will reach their own point when it's time for him to go. For some it was after 2 or 3 races in 2010, for me it was at the end of 2010, others are still keeping the faith.


Who and why?

And this talk about needing a driver to push Rosberg is either a) nonsense or b) Rosberg is a poor driver.

Michael is accused of having weaker teammates. Did he need to be pushed? Same story for Alonso.

Edited by Diablobb81, 19 August 2011 - 17:10.


#12467 Number62

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 17:27

Who and why?

And this talk about needing a driver to push Rosberg is either a) nonsense or b) Rosberg is a poor driver.

Michael is accused of having weaker teammates. Did he need to be pushed? Same story for Alonso.


Yes.

From Alonso (stolen from the ALO vs HAM thread) - ""That year was good overall, both Lewis and I learned many things. When you share a team with a top driver you learn to grow together.

"You improve in terms of preparing for a race and even from his driving style, because you share telemetry, so it was a great experience," added Alonso.

I believe if Rosberg felt a greater threat he'd have to up his game again. It's standard sports performance management.

As for who, I'll do you a deal, you name a few who you think would be cheaper and faster than Schumi and i'll reciprocate.

#12468 Diablobb81

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 18:07

Learning from another driver is completely different than needing another driver so you can perform. So my point still stands : if Rosberg needs a strong teammate to perform at his best then he is a poor driver.

Why would i nominate other drivers? I don't believe there are available drivers that would be better for Merc than Michael.

#12469 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 18:40

Yes.

From Alonso (stolen from the ALO vs HAM thread) - ""That year was good overall, both Lewis and I learned many things. When you share a team with a top driver you learn to grow together.

"You improve in terms of preparing for a race and even from his driving style, because you share telemetry, so it was a great experience," added Alonso.

I believe if Rosberg felt a greater threat he'd have to up his game again. It's standard sports performance management.

As for who, I'll do you a deal, you name a few who you think would be cheaper and faster than Schumi and i'll reciprocate.


is massa upping his game since alonso joined? this standard performance management of yours is a bit of a piss take theory.

as for cheaper than schumi..i don't know. did you hear about exposure? he probably sells more merchandise to mercedes (and brings more media exposure) than any of those cheap drivers would

as for his knowledge.....you can't buy that off the shelf

#12470 Number62

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 18:59

Learning from another driver is completely different than needing another driver so you can perform. So my point still stands : if Rosberg needs a strong teammate to perform at his best then he is a poor driver.

Why would i nominate other drivers? I don't believe there are available drivers that would be better for Merc than Michael.


What, you think Alonso learned from Hamilton so he could be worse? It's bog standard performance stuff, I'm not sure it warrants discussion.

A performance level is achieved (personal or absolute i.e. 100m sprint), someone comes along and moves the game on and everyone steps up. Nothing new here.

You have changed the nuance of my question so as not to answer it. I didn't ask for 'available' drivers (assume all drivers are available) because drivers are fungible as witnessed at the end of 2007 (ALO and KOV) and 2009 (KIM and ALO), and what is your definition of better for Merc?

I asked cheaper and faster, which is my definition of better for MGP by the way. Nothing to do with selling caps. In no particular order and first pass;

Kobayashi
Petrov
Sutil
Di Resta
Kubica (if he regains function)

#12471 Number62

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 19:18

is massa upping his game since alonso joined? this standard performance management of yours is a bit of a piss take theory.

as for cheaper than schumi..i don't know. did you hear about exposure? he probably sells more merchandise to mercedes (and brings more media exposure) than any of those cheap drivers would

as for his knowledge.....you can't buy that off the shelf


It's not my theory, it's just normal. You don't think Tiger woods lifted the level of golf, or Sampras tennis, or Bolt sprinting, or Senna f1, or Rossi motoGp, or Ronaldo, or Muhammed Ali, or Bob Beamon. Just use google on something like "i had to raise my game". I'm amazed anyones contesting this.

Regarding Massa, if anything it backs up the theory; a new benchmark arrives, if you can't step up it could ruin you. Someone is always looking to raise the bar, you either go with them or you get left behind.

If it's about selling merchandise then so be it. That is not a success formula for MGP.

They don't need him in the cockpit to buy his knowledge.

#12472 Diablobb81

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 20:29

What, you think Alonso learned from Hamilton so he could be worse? It's bog standard performance stuff, I'm not sure it warrants discussion.

A performance level is achieved (personal or absolute i.e. 100m sprint), someone comes along and moves the game on and everyone steps up. Nothing new here.

You have changed the nuance of my question so as not to answer it. I didn't ask for 'available' drivers (assume all drivers are available) because drivers are fungible as witnessed at the end of 2007 (ALO and KOV) and 2009 (KIM and ALO), and what is your definition of better for Merc?

I asked cheaper and faster, which is my definition of better for MGP by the way. Nothing to do with selling caps. In no particular order and first pass;

Kobayashi
Petrov
Sutil
Di Resta
Kubica (if he regains function)


First : i just gave you the best counterexample : Schumacher. Weaker teammates and 7 titles.

You still confuse the two parts : performing at one's best and learning.

Rosberg shouldn't need someone else to perform at his best (his best at that moment). And if the idea is that he should learn so as to become a better driver than you think he could learn more from the guys you mentioned than from a 7 times WDC?

For the second part :

Of course i changed the nuance of your question because you don't define faster. Faster over lap lap, faster over a race, someone who scores more points? So i used better driver.

And i'm not interested in a theoretical question on who on the grid is better than Michael.

You said that Merc could hire other drivers. So of course we are talking only about those they could realistically hire.

And from your list (some of the drivers already have contracts for 2012) :
Koba is having quali problems and is still to inexperienced.
Petrov - seriously?
Sutil : very inconsistent. Had plenty of time to show his worth.
Di Resta : too inexperienced. Probably Schumacher replacement anyway.
Kubica : let him heal first.

Merc already have a young driver with 100 GP under his belt. So he should be the future. And why not pair him with an experienced driver from whom he can learn a lot.

Edited by Diablobb81, 19 August 2011 - 20:33.


#12473 Number62

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 21:15

First : i just gave you the best counterexample : Schumacher. Weaker teammates and 7 titles.

You still confuse the two parts : performing at one's best and learning.

Rosberg shouldn't need someone else to perform at his best (his best at that moment). And if the idea is that he should learn so as to become a better driver than you think he could learn more from the guys you mentioned than from a 7 times WDC?

For the second part :

Of course i changed the nuance of your question because you don't define faster. Faster over lap lap, faster over a race, someone who scores more points? So i used better driver.

And i'm not interested in a theoretical question on who on the grid is better than Michael.

You said that Merc could hire other drivers. So of course we are talking only about those they could realistically hire.

And from your list (some of the drivers already have contracts for 2012) :
Koba is having quali problems and is still to inexperienced.
Petrov - seriously?
Sutil : very inconsistent. Had plenty of time to show his worth.
Di Resta : too inexperienced. Probably Schumacher replacement anyway.
Kubica : let him heal first.

Merc already have a young driver with 100 GP under his belt. So he should be the future. And why not pair him with an experienced driver from whom he can learn a lot.


First; I'm not in the least confused. One's best is a snapshot in time, only with hindsight will you know which of your bests is the career peak. When Schumi won his first WDC, he was, at that time at his best. He still got better though. It doesn't exclude using others as motivation to improve. In fact I believe Schumi has made it known that Hakkinen spurred him on to greater things. These are competitve animals, intra and/or inter team rivalries are good for them.

Of course he can learn from Michael, plenty. But a competitive threat from a faster team mate would invoke a more visceral response as is well known.

I'm not making this stuff up. At my last employer we had an elite performance adviser who was a world cup winning international coach. He was unequivocal about this stuff. You hire the best you can, then you keep trying to hire better people to bring everyone's level up. Those who aren't performing should be considered, with human kindness, for other roles within the 'team'.

Second; yes fair enough i did say that.

If Michael is the best they can get at the moment then so be it. However;

1. I don't believe he is (for 2012 at least)
2. that's not the same sentiment as our starting point earlier which is Brawn and Haug's stance that Schumi can drive as long as he wants.

And of the drivers mentioned (i'm sure they could buy any of these contracts for 8m Euro:

Koba is having quali problems and is still to inexperienced. - Same as Schumi then, extremely highly regarded, only 5 pts behind in a Sauber!
Petrov - seriously? - Yes, ahead of Schumi in a Renault!
Sutil : very inconsistent. Had plenty of time to show his worth. Beating his team mate, see below.
Di Resta : too inexperienced. Probably Schumacher replacement anyway. - Get him in then, Rosberg is the experienced one now
Kubica : let him heal first. - Of course.

Edited by Number62, 19 August 2011 - 21:16.


#12474 Paco

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 21:48

I agree that it doesn't matter who's in the sister car for a driver to push himself so irregardless who's driving the 2nd MGP, Nico should be performing at the top of his game.

Where I do have an issue is with a team that refuses to implement a No. 1 driver or preceived No. 1 driver. Giving equal status to both team mates I believe handicaps the team tremendously. Each driver has his own driving style which could affect the direction and development of a car.

Personally I feel that having a clear No. 1 is the way to go.

Ferrari's dominance during the Schumi No. 1 era. Ferrari regaining now with Fernando No. 1.
McLaren top performance years were during Mika's No. 1. I feel they are bit behind right now having 2 strong drivers with different styles.
BAR behind Button won.
RedBull behind Seb are winning.

When a team tries and cater to 2 No. 1s, they inevitable dont win as it affects design direction of the car, strategy etc. It minimizes their performance.

I think it`s high time Merc decide where they are headed and put full resources in that direction so they don`t waste another year. I`m not convinced that Nico is necessarily that guy.. if MS is thinking of just one more year. If Michael is thinking of 3-4 more year program, I wouldn`t be surprised if Nico moves on to RedBull behind Seb after next season. If MS isn`t in longer term then next season, and if they don`t intended on going after a proven race winner... then better start having Nico be the flagship guy

#12475 arknor

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 21:56

Learning from another driver is completely different than needing another driver so you can perform. So my point still stands : if Rosberg needs a strong teammate to perform at his best then he is a poor driver.

Why would i nominate other drivers? I don't believe there are available drivers that would be better for Merc than Michael.

its complete rubbish... most of the top drivers have had weaker teammates and most #2s never raised any game...

from the last few races we can see schumacher stints in races are much more competitive than rosberg surely this should be enough to make rosberg raise his game if he can , or maybe he enjoys beeing 0.1-0.5 seconds a lap slower than his team mate in races over a whole stint ? hes never going to be considered a top driver by the top teams for aslong as his race pace is rubbish and his racecraft invisible.

even if alonso joined mercedes as nicos teamate it wouldnt make nico raise his game its just a bullshirt argument people use to call for schumachers retirement people like number62 whos only posts in scumacher related threads dating back to the 2010 season are all negative comments that completely ignore any race stint times

Edited by arknor, 19 August 2011 - 21:58.


#12476 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 06:51

its complete rubbish... most of the top drivers have had weaker teammates and most #2s never raised any game...

from the last few races we can see schumacher stints in races are much more competitive than rosberg surely this should be enough to make rosberg raise his game if he can , or maybe he enjoys beeing 0.1-0.5 seconds a lap slower than his team mate in races over a whole stint ? hes never going to be considered a top driver by the top teams for aslong as his race pace is rubbish and his racecraft invisible.

even if alonso joined mercedes as nicos teamate it wouldnt make nico raise his game its just a bullshirt argument people use to call for schumachers retirement people like number62 whos only posts in scumacher related threads dating back to the 2010 season are all negative comments that completely ignore any race stint times


I don't really feel the need to continue this in the face of such underwhelming knowledge of sports psychology and indeed human nature. Enjoy;

"Michael Schumacher said he must "raise his game" after Mercedes team-mate Nico Rosberg beat him in Friday practice at the season's opening grand prix.

The German legend, returning to F1 after three years in retirement, was nearly 0.5 seconds slower than Rosberg in both practice sessions in Bahrain.

"That is a bit too much for my standards. I've got to raise my game a bit and I'm sure I'm able to," he said.

"It's not a problem. It's just that for one lap I saw that Nico was four-tenths up and that is a bit too much for my standards. I've got to raise my game a bit and I'm sure I'm able to."

Jenson Button will have to dig deep and raise his game in F1 2010 if he is to successfully get on terms with McLaren-Mercedes team-mate Lewis Hamilton and have a chance of beating his title-winning predecessor over the balance of the campaign, argues the reigning world champion's former team chief Nick Fry.

Lewis Hamilton on Sunday vowed to raise his game after finishing more than half a minute behind his teammate Fernando Alonso in Britain

Valentino Rossi - who currently holds a 30-point lead in this year's championship race - said the emergence of Casey Stoner, Dani Pedrosa and Jorge Lorenzo had forced him to raise his game.

"It is a great, great motivation for trying to improve," said Rossi.

"And this year it is the same with Lorenzo. He is also my team-mate, with the same bike, so it means more concentration, more time dedicated to try and win. It is difficult, it is bad when you lose, but it is a lot, lot more exciting when you are able to win."

Edited by Number62, 20 August 2011 - 07:41.


#12477 Jazza

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 07:15

its complete rubbish... most of the top drivers have had weaker teammates and most #2s never raised any game...

from the last few races we can see schumacher stints in races are much more competitive than rosberg surely this should be enough to make rosberg raise his game if he can , or maybe he enjoys beeing 0.1-0.5 seconds a lap slower than his team mate in races over a whole stint ? hes never going to be considered a top driver by the top teams for aslong as his race pace is rubbish and his racecraft invisible.

even if alonso joined mercedes as nicos teamate it wouldnt make nico raise his game its just a bullshirt argument people use to call for schumachers retirement people like number62 whos only posts in scumacher related threads dating back to the 2010 season are all negative comments that completely ignore any race stint times


The theory that drivers raise their game depending on their team mate is well established. This is not some new idea that has been made up in the last year.

For example; It was said about NH when RK replaced JV at BMW. It was said about RS when JPM joined Williams, and again about KR when JPM moved to McLaren. it was said about JV when JB joined BAR. And it was even said about MS when RB joined Ferrari.

This is not a new theory. However, whether this theory is a fact is another question. Just because it gets said a lot does not make it true. But it is not a new concept that has been made up to push MS into retirement.

Now, a faster driver being slower than his team mate because his car is too easy to drive... That is a new idea! It is also a theory that will undoubtedly win the race to the bullshit basket before the idea above.

#12478 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 07:30

And after so much talk , can somebody explain how they will get something better than 7th(if all other(faster) six car finish)? Because everything else is BS, you know it and team and drivers know it. But, you still talk BS. I hate to say it but, you focus here on non problem!!!! The problem is parked in Brakley now. But, you can go ahead with the nonsense.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 07:34.


#12479 Sakae

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:13

What, you think Alonso learned from Hamilton so he could be worse? It's bog standard performance stuff, I'm not sure it warrants discussion.

A performance level is achieved (personal or absolute i.e. 100m sprint), someone comes along and moves the game on and everyone steps up. Nothing new here.

You have changed the nuance of my question so as not to answer it. I didn't ask for 'available' drivers (assume all drivers are available) because drivers are fungible as witnessed at the end of 2007 (ALO and KOV) and 2009 (KIM and ALO), and what is your definition of better for Merc?

I asked cheaper and faster, which is my definition of better for MGP by the way. Nothing to do with selling caps. In no particular order and first pass;

Kobayashi
Petrov
Sutil
Di Resta
Kubica (if he regains function)

It is conceivable that some people see in Schumacher qualities you don't, and take your list as rather laughable proposition.



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#12480 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:33

It is conceivable that some people see in Schumacher qualities you don't, and take your list as rather laughable proposition.


You find this laughable?

People who are beating Schumacher in worse cars would likely beat him in the same car.




#12481 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 11:50

You find this laughable?

People who are beating Schumacher in worse cars would likely beat him in the same car.

who petrov and heidfeld? ill be very suprised if at the end of the season they are infront of schumacher in the championship standings

#12482 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:02

who petrov and heidfeld? ill be very suprised if at the end of the season they are infront of schumacher in the championship standings


But I'm posing the question now.

#12483 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:46

You find this laughable?

People who are beating Schumacher in worse cars would likely beat him in the same car.

Examples?


#12484 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:01

Examples?


Are you answering a question with a question?

What would you like examples of that you can't get yourself?

#12485 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:09

Are you answering a question with a question?

What would you like examples of that you can't get yourself?

I expected this ,much talks ,nothing serious. And, no examples. Empty words only. I can get examples to confirm everything, can't read your mind. To have credibility, give facts, examples ,something to discuss. A lot of people throw empty words here and say nothing. Typical.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 13:13.


#12486 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:16

I expected this ,much talks ,nothing serious. And, no examples. Empty words only.


I'm not very interested in your disingenuous method of debating. It's obvious you know who the examples are but play dumb to create some circular arguments.

I've seen you be very reasonable on here before but not right now clearly. I promise i will respond in kind and give you the same respect you afford so if you have an answer to the question i'm happy to carry on, if not no probs, have a nice day....it's raining here in south London.

#12487 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:25

Kobayashi
Petrov
Sutil
Di Resta

Schumacher would beat the above to a pulp driving while carrying a cane.How I know? Same way you do,thinking they can do better. Using some BS formula.

#12488 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:26

I'm not very interested in your disingenuous method of debating. It's obvious you know who the examples are but play dumb to create some circular arguments.

I've seen you be very reasonable on here before but not right now clearly. I promise i will respond in kind and give you the same respect you afford so if you have an answer to the question i'm happy to carry on, if not no probs, have a nice day....it's raining here in south London.

The same examples that beat Nico in inferior car too? Malaysia,Canada,Monaco, else? And which is your question? You have a lot. Last is: You find this laughable? I understand your problem in giving examples, because they easily can turn against you. KOB, DIR,SUT, PET,HEI, BAR, BUE, ALG they all have finishes ahead of MGP drivers. What is your point? They both get beating from drivers in inferior car.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 13:28.


#12489 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:28

Schumacher would beat the above to a pulp driving while carrying a cane.How I know? Same way you do,thinking they can do better. Using some BS formula.


Petrov is already beating him?!

#12490 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:35

The same examples that beat Nico in inferior car too? Malaysia,Canada,Monaco, else? And which is your question? You have a lot. Last is: You find this laughable? I understand your problem in giving examples, because they easily can turn against you. KOB, DIR,SUT, PET,HEI, BAR, BUE, ALG they all have finishes ahead of MGP drivers. What is your point? They both get beating from drivers in inferior car.


I have no problem, I will ask again with as much clarity as I can muster.

Given that Petrov and Heidfeld are already beating Schumacher in inferior cars, more than half way through the season, using that piece of empirical evidence do you think it is;

a) Laughable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car
b) Reasonable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car

I wonder if you will be able to answer.



#12491 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:46

Petrov is already beating him?!

Petrov has 1 retirement Schumi has 3. Petrov has 4 races in the points Schumi has 6. F1 is not assessed just by looking at points,it is the most complicated sport in the world!

#12492 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:48

I have no problem, I will ask again with as much clarity as I can muster.

Given that Petrov and Heidfeld are already beating Schumacher in inferior cars, more than half way through the season, using that piece of empirical evidence do you think it is;

a) Laughable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car
b) Reasonable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car

I wonder if you will be able to answer.

First when they make most of their points in WDC Renault was better car. There goes the theory about the inferior car. Since LRGP car is not so good they barely finish ahead of MGP(and only after some mistake). So, make your facts straight first and then ask question.
And what to say when some times MGP drivers finish ahead of drivers in top 3 teams? I think that they can beat them in the same car too.


#12493 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:52

But I'm posing the question now.

maybe adds some perspective maybe not make of it what you will
Retirements
NICO - 1
MSC - 3
HEIDFELD - 3
PETROV - 2

POINTS TOTAL AFTER EACH RACE
NICO - 0[ret]- 0 - 10 - 20 - 26 - 26 - 26 - 32 - 40 - 46 - 48 -
MSC - 0[ret]- 2 - 6 - 6 - 14 - 14 [ret] - 26 - 26 - 28 - 32 - 32[ret] -
HEIDFELD - 0 - 15 - 15 - 21 - 25 - 29 - 29 [ret] - 30 - 34 - 34[ret] - 34[ret]
PETROV - 15 - 15[ret] - 17 - 21 - 21 - 21[ret] - 31 - 31 - 31 - 32 - 32

AUS
NICO - Accident damage
MSC - Puncture damage
HEIDFELD - 12th
PETROV - 3rd

MAL

NICO - 12th
MSC - 9th
HEIDFELD - 3rd
PETROV - Accident

CHI
NICO - 5th
MSC - 8th
HEIDFELD - 12th
PETROV - 9th

TUR
NICO - 5th
MSC - 12th
HEIDFELD - 7th
PETROV - 8th


SPA
NICO - 7th
MSC - 6th
HEIDFELD - 8th
PETROV - 11th

MON
NICO - 11th
MSC - Airbox fire
HEIDFELD - 8th
PETROV - Accident

CAN
NICO - 11th
MSC - 4th
HEIDFELD - Accident
PETROV - 5th

EUR
NICO - 7th
MSC - 17th
HEIDFELD - 10th
PETROV - 15th

GBR
NICO - 6th
MSC - 9th
HEIDFELD - 8th
PETROV - 12

GER
NICO - 7th
MSC - 8th
HEIDFELD - Accident
PETROV - 10th

HUN
NICO - 9th
MSC - Gearbox
HEIDFELD - Fire
PETROV - 12th

Edited by arknor, 20 August 2011 - 13:54.


#12494 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:54

Petrov has 1 retirement Schumi has 3. Petrov has 4 races in the points Schumi has 6. F1 is not assessed just by looking at points,it is the most complicated sport in the world!


I'm not sure what that has to do with the question but yes I agree.

It's also a results business, without using google who, in 2000;

Won the WDC
Came 9th
Had the most retirements
finished most often in the points

I can only get one of those.

#12495 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:57

First when they make most of their points in WDC Renault was better car. There goes the theory about the inferior car. Since LRGP car is not so good they barely finish ahead of MGP(and only after some mistake). So, make your facts straight first and then ask question.
And what to say when some times MGP drivers finish ahead of drivers in top 3 teams? I think that they can beat them in the same car too.


So that's no then, you can't answer the question.

#12496 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:58

It is just pure luck that Petrov and Heidfeld are ahead of MS. And it will end in Spa. Beating MS, HA HA HA. Good laugh.

So that's no then, you can't answer the question.

I forgot my crystal ball and this is why I can't answer. It can be answered only with speculation ,but this is your speciality.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 14:03.


#12497 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:02

It is just pure luck that Petrov and Heidfeld are ahead of MS. And it will end in Spa. Beating MS, HA HA HA. Good laugh.

looking at finishing positions and points in relation to retirements wether they be through an accident of technical failure petrov is actually doing alot worst than i had pictured in my head and i stand by what i said earlier i will be amazed if petrov and heidfeld are higher in the championship standings at the end of the season.

people see schumacher as doing worse than he actually is imo and probably only because expectations are so high hes not really doing that bad a job to say hes finished 2 less races than nico and he should be a lot closer than he is , im expecting it to even out a bit more at the end of the season

Edited by arknor, 20 August 2011 - 14:06.


#12498 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:05

I'm not sure what that has to do with the question but yes I agree.

It's also a results business, without using google who, in 2000;

Won the WDC
Came 9th
Had the most retirements
finished most often in the points

I can only get one of those.

Irrelevant! You made a list of possible replacements for MS,including VP. And you based their performances looking at the scoring table.If it was only so simple.

A results business,yes nice. And looking at just the business point point of view MS has lots more to offer than the ones on your list.

#12499 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:09

Irrelevant! You made a list of possible replacements for MS,including VP. And you based their performances looking at the scoring table.If it was only so simple.

A results business,yes nice. And looking at just the business point point of view MS has lots more to offer than the ones on your list.

the thing is petrov is under performing horribly if it wasnt for the 15 points haul in the first race he would be nowhere near the points of heidfeld or msc, how anyone can even consider replacing schumacher with petrov is just beyond me it clearly blows some peoples opinions out of the water when they try to argue with skewed statistics.

you could say the same for heidfeidl really pretty much half his points are from the second race aswell, they were lucky the renault was so fast at the start of the season and its obvious they have captialised on that alot a great headstart for them but its not lasting and merc are pulling away and 100% sure schumacher will pull clear from them and atleast keep the points gap to rosberg around what it is now

Edited by arknor, 20 August 2011 - 14:12.


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#12500 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:10

It is just pure luck that Petrov and Heidfeld are ahead of MS. And it will end in Spa. Beating MS, HA HA HA. Good laugh.


I forgot my crystal ball and this is why I can't answer. It can be answered only with speculation ,but this is your specialty.


NO, no speculation required, given the status quo is it POSSIBLE that Petrov or Hedfeld would be quicker than Scumacher as I first set out was my opinion backed up by evidence

OR

is it Laughable as others have stated backed up by nothing