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#12501 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:02

who petrov and heidfeld? ill be very suprised if at the end of the season they are infront of schumacher in the championship standings


But I'm posing the question now.

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#12502 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 12:46

You find this laughable?

People who are beating Schumacher in worse cars would likely beat him in the same car.

Examples?


#12503 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:01

Examples?


Are you answering a question with a question?

What would you like examples of that you can't get yourself?

#12504 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:09

Are you answering a question with a question?

What would you like examples of that you can't get yourself?

I expected this ,much talks ,nothing serious. And, no examples. Empty words only. I can get examples to confirm everything, can't read your mind. To have credibility, give facts, examples ,something to discuss. A lot of people throw empty words here and say nothing. Typical.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 13:13.


#12505 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:16

I expected this ,much talks ,nothing serious. And, no examples. Empty words only.


I'm not very interested in your disingenuous method of debating. It's obvious you know who the examples are but play dumb to create some circular arguments.

I've seen you be very reasonable on here before but not right now clearly. I promise i will respond in kind and give you the same respect you afford so if you have an answer to the question i'm happy to carry on, if not no probs, have a nice day....it's raining here in south London.

#12506 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:25

Kobayashi
Petrov
Sutil
Di Resta

Schumacher would beat the above to a pulp driving while carrying a cane.How I know? Same way you do,thinking they can do better. Using some BS formula.

#12507 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:26

I'm not very interested in your disingenuous method of debating. It's obvious you know who the examples are but play dumb to create some circular arguments.

I've seen you be very reasonable on here before but not right now clearly. I promise i will respond in kind and give you the same respect you afford so if you have an answer to the question i'm happy to carry on, if not no probs, have a nice day....it's raining here in south London.

The same examples that beat Nico in inferior car too? Malaysia,Canada,Monaco, else? And which is your question? You have a lot. Last is: You find this laughable? I understand your problem in giving examples, because they easily can turn against you. KOB, DIR,SUT, PET,HEI, BAR, BUE, ALG they all have finishes ahead of MGP drivers. What is your point? They both get beating from drivers in inferior car.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 13:28.


#12508 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:28

Schumacher would beat the above to a pulp driving while carrying a cane.How I know? Same way you do,thinking they can do better. Using some BS formula.


Petrov is already beating him?!

#12509 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:35

The same examples that beat Nico in inferior car too? Malaysia,Canada,Monaco, else? And which is your question? You have a lot. Last is: You find this laughable? I understand your problem in giving examples, because they easily can turn against you. KOB, DIR,SUT, PET,HEI, BAR, BUE, ALG they all have finishes ahead of MGP drivers. What is your point? They both get beating from drivers in inferior car.


I have no problem, I will ask again with as much clarity as I can muster.

Given that Petrov and Heidfeld are already beating Schumacher in inferior cars, more than half way through the season, using that piece of empirical evidence do you think it is;

a) Laughable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car
b) Reasonable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car

I wonder if you will be able to answer.



#12510 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:46

Petrov is already beating him?!

Petrov has 1 retirement Schumi has 3. Petrov has 4 races in the points Schumi has 6. F1 is not assessed just by looking at points,it is the most complicated sport in the world!

#12511 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:48

I have no problem, I will ask again with as much clarity as I can muster.

Given that Petrov and Heidfeld are already beating Schumacher in inferior cars, more than half way through the season, using that piece of empirical evidence do you think it is;

a) Laughable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car
b) Reasonable to posit that they may also then beat him in the same car

I wonder if you will be able to answer.

First when they make most of their points in WDC Renault was better car. There goes the theory about the inferior car. Since LRGP car is not so good they barely finish ahead of MGP(and only after some mistake). So, make your facts straight first and then ask question.
And what to say when some times MGP drivers finish ahead of drivers in top 3 teams? I think that they can beat them in the same car too.


#12512 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:52

But I'm posing the question now.

maybe adds some perspective maybe not make of it what you will
Retirements
NICO - 1
MSC - 3
HEIDFELD - 3
PETROV - 2

POINTS TOTAL AFTER EACH RACE
NICO - 0[ret]- 0 - 10 - 20 - 26 - 26 - 26 - 32 - 40 - 46 - 48 -
MSC - 0[ret]- 2 - 6 - 6 - 14 - 14 [ret] - 26 - 26 - 28 - 32 - 32[ret] -
HEIDFELD - 0 - 15 - 15 - 21 - 25 - 29 - 29 [ret] - 30 - 34 - 34[ret] - 34[ret]
PETROV - 15 - 15[ret] - 17 - 21 - 21 - 21[ret] - 31 - 31 - 31 - 32 - 32

AUS
NICO - Accident damage
MSC - Puncture damage
HEIDFELD - 12th
PETROV - 3rd

MAL

NICO - 12th
MSC - 9th
HEIDFELD - 3rd
PETROV - Accident

CHI
NICO - 5th
MSC - 8th
HEIDFELD - 12th
PETROV - 9th

TUR
NICO - 5th
MSC - 12th
HEIDFELD - 7th
PETROV - 8th


SPA
NICO - 7th
MSC - 6th
HEIDFELD - 8th
PETROV - 11th

MON
NICO - 11th
MSC - Airbox fire
HEIDFELD - 8th
PETROV - Accident

CAN
NICO - 11th
MSC - 4th
HEIDFELD - Accident
PETROV - 5th

EUR
NICO - 7th
MSC - 17th
HEIDFELD - 10th
PETROV - 15th

GBR
NICO - 6th
MSC - 9th
HEIDFELD - 8th
PETROV - 12

GER
NICO - 7th
MSC - 8th
HEIDFELD - Accident
PETROV - 10th

HUN
NICO - 9th
MSC - Gearbox
HEIDFELD - Fire
PETROV - 12th

Edited by arknor, 20 August 2011 - 13:54.


#12513 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:54

Petrov has 1 retirement Schumi has 3. Petrov has 4 races in the points Schumi has 6. F1 is not assessed just by looking at points,it is the most complicated sport in the world!


I'm not sure what that has to do with the question but yes I agree.

It's also a results business, without using google who, in 2000;

Won the WDC
Came 9th
Had the most retirements
finished most often in the points

I can only get one of those.

#12514 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:57

First when they make most of their points in WDC Renault was better car. There goes the theory about the inferior car. Since LRGP car is not so good they barely finish ahead of MGP(and only after some mistake). So, make your facts straight first and then ask question.
And what to say when some times MGP drivers finish ahead of drivers in top 3 teams? I think that they can beat them in the same car too.


So that's no then, you can't answer the question.

#12515 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 13:58

It is just pure luck that Petrov and Heidfeld are ahead of MS. And it will end in Spa. Beating MS, HA HA HA. Good laugh.

So that's no then, you can't answer the question.

I forgot my crystal ball and this is why I can't answer. It can be answered only with speculation ,but this is your speciality.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 14:03.


#12516 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:02

It is just pure luck that Petrov and Heidfeld are ahead of MS. And it will end in Spa. Beating MS, HA HA HA. Good laugh.

looking at finishing positions and points in relation to retirements wether they be through an accident of technical failure petrov is actually doing alot worst than i had pictured in my head and i stand by what i said earlier i will be amazed if petrov and heidfeld are higher in the championship standings at the end of the season.

people see schumacher as doing worse than he actually is imo and probably only because expectations are so high hes not really doing that bad a job to say hes finished 2 less races than nico and he should be a lot closer than he is , im expecting it to even out a bit more at the end of the season

Edited by arknor, 20 August 2011 - 14:06.


#12517 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:05

I'm not sure what that has to do with the question but yes I agree.

It's also a results business, without using google who, in 2000;

Won the WDC
Came 9th
Had the most retirements
finished most often in the points

I can only get one of those.

Irrelevant! You made a list of possible replacements for MS,including VP. And you based their performances looking at the scoring table.If it was only so simple.

A results business,yes nice. And looking at just the business point point of view MS has lots more to offer than the ones on your list.

#12518 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:09

Irrelevant! You made a list of possible replacements for MS,including VP. And you based their performances looking at the scoring table.If it was only so simple.

A results business,yes nice. And looking at just the business point point of view MS has lots more to offer than the ones on your list.

the thing is petrov is under performing horribly if it wasnt for the 15 points haul in the first race he would be nowhere near the points of heidfeld or msc, how anyone can even consider replacing schumacher with petrov is just beyond me it clearly blows some peoples opinions out of the water when they try to argue with skewed statistics.

you could say the same for heidfeidl really pretty much half his points are from the second race aswell, they were lucky the renault was so fast at the start of the season and its obvious they have captialised on that alot a great headstart for them but its not lasting and merc are pulling away and 100% sure schumacher will pull clear from them and atleast keep the points gap to rosberg around what it is now

Edited by arknor, 20 August 2011 - 14:12.


#12519 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:10

It is just pure luck that Petrov and Heidfeld are ahead of MS. And it will end in Spa. Beating MS, HA HA HA. Good laugh.


I forgot my crystal ball and this is why I can't answer. It can be answered only with speculation ,but this is your specialty.


NO, no speculation required, given the status quo is it POSSIBLE that Petrov or Hedfeld would be quicker than Scumacher as I first set out was my opinion backed up by evidence

OR

is it Laughable as others have stated backed up by nothing


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#12520 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:12

Irrelevant! You made a list of possible replacements for MS,including VP. And you based their performances looking at the scoring table.If it was only so simple.

A results business,yes nice. And looking at just the business point point of view MS has lots more to offer than the ones on your list.


It's funny but I can agree with most of the things you say but you can agree with none of mine.

Are we discussing the same point.

#12521 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:13

NO, no speculation required, given the status quo is it POSSIBLE that Petrov or Hedfeld would be quicker than Scumacher as I first set out was my opinion backed up by evidence

OR

is it Laughable as others have stated backed up by nothing

backed up by nothing? i compiled a list of points scored in each race , retirements , etc and u just ignore it if it wasnt for the 3rd places they managed at the start of the season they would be nowhere near msc/rosberg

#12522 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:20

NO, no speculation required, given the status quo is it POSSIBLE that Petrov or Hedfeld would be quicker than Scumacher as I first set out was my opinion backed up by evidence
OR
is it Laughable as others have stated backed up by nothing

What status quo? 1-2 points. If I fallow your logic now they can be possible quicker than MS , but after one-two races when he will be ahead of them they will never have chance to be faster than him in the same car? And this come from only 1-2 points difference in WDC. With this difference you can't make any conclusion. Or look this way 91 wins against triple 0 for Nico, Nick and Pertov. This speaks much more than points difference. Points said nothing. Alonso in 2008(5th)-2009(9th) , so all other guys who beat him then will be faster than him in the same car? Probably, but we don't know. Your question don't make any sense. Your point about inferior car has been overturn. Your question doesn't stand anymore.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 14:27.


#12523 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:27

backed up by nothing? i compiled a list of points scored in each race , retirements , etc and u just ignore it if it wasnt for the 3rd places they managed at the start of the season they would be nowhere near msc/rosberg


I didn't ignore it.

What I see is that in a season of ups and downs the Renault boys are ahead of (yes only just) Schumacher. That is reason enough to suggest the POSSIBILITY that they would be a match for him or better in an MGP. It does not proove that theory to be LAUGHABLE

For what it's worth, the current trend suggests that Schumacher will indeed overtake them by seasons end.

This debate centres around the LIKELIHOOD of Petrov or Heidfeld (or others) being quicker than Schumi. To put that likelihood at 'Laughable' is to be blind to the evidence.

#12524 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:31

I didn't ignore it.

What I see is that in a season of ups and downs the Renault boys are ahead of (yes only just) Schumacher. That is reason enough to suggest the POSSIBILITY that they would be a match for him or better in an MGP. It does not proove that theory to be LAUGHABLE

For what it's worth, the current trend suggests that Schumacher will indeed overtake them by seasons end.

This debate centres around the LIKELIHOOD of Petrov or Heidfeld (or others) being quicker than Schumi. To put that likelihood at 'Laughable' is to be blind to the evidence.

There is also LIKELIHOOD that MS will be faster in the same car than SV,LH,FA,JB,MW and FM. To put that likelihood at 'Laughable' is to be blind to the evidence. Told you about Alonso 2008-2009.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 14:32.


#12525 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:33

It's funny but I can agree with most of the things you say but you can agree with none of mine.

Are we discussing the same point.

I don't agree that VP,AS,PdR can do better than Schu. Too many unknowns,for all I know Merc builds a rocket in 2012 and MS mops the floor with everyone.
Why not consider that?

#12526 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:40

What status quo? 1-2 points. If I fallow your logic now they can be possible quicker than MS , but after one-two races when he will be ahead of them they will never have chance to be faster than him in the same car? And this come from only 1-2 points difference in WDC. With this difference you can't make any conclusion. Or look this way 91 wins against triple 0 for Nico, Nick and Pertov. This speaks much more than points difference. Points said nothing. Alonso in 2008(5th)-2009(9th) , so all other guys who beat him then will be faster than him in the same car? Probably, but we don't know. Your question don't make any sense. Your point about inferior car has been overturn. Your question doesn't stand anymore.


No my Friend it's to do with using the evidence available to ascertain probability of performance. It's also subjective and personal. It also requires context, knowledge and experience as you have all pointed out.

MY OPINION is that

Narain Karthikeyan would have approximately f&&K all chance of matching Schumi in an MGP
Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton would have a high 90s chance of beating him in an MGP
Rosberg high 70s
Petrov, Heidfeld, Di Resta, Koba 60s
etc. etc.

You will have your own numbers, I'm sure but I can guess what they look like.

What I take umbrage with is the response that a driver who is competing already with Schumi would have a chance of beating him rated at laughable. That is where this exchange has come from. If you take a deep breath you may see some common sense there.



#12527 arknor

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:42

I didn't ignore it.

What I see is that in a season of ups and downs the Renault boys are ahead of (yes only just) Schumacher. That is reason enough to suggest the POSSIBILITY that they would be a match for him or better in an MGP. It does not proove that theory to be LAUGHABLE

For what it's worth, the current trend suggests that Schumacher will indeed overtake them by seasons end.

This debate centres around the LIKELIHOOD of Petrov or Heidfeld (or others) being quicker than Schumi. To put that likelihood at 'Laughable' is to be blind to the evidence.

beeing quicker or scoring more points ?because the first makes it intresting when comparing rosberg over the last few races :wave:

Edited by arknor, 20 August 2011 - 14:43.


#12528 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:45

And I am sure you don't remember who said that it is laughable to think that somebody can beat MS? If this is the biggest problem. About your percentage , I guess you don't know who Michael Schumacher is? If MS finish ahead of Nico at the end of the year ,what will be your percentage?

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 14:46.


#12529 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:45

There is also LIKELIHOOD that MS will be faster in the same car than SV,LH,FA,JB,MW and FM. To put that likelihood at 'Laughable' is to be blind to the evidence. Told you about Alonso 2008-2009.


Yes, I'm OK with that.

I'd put the probability pretty low based on the evidence, but wouldn't have so little respect for Schumacher as to say it's laughable.

#12530 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 14:51

Yes, I'm OK with that.
I'd put the probability pretty low based on the evidence, but wouldn't have so little respect for Schumacher as to say it's laughable.

I would say it is easy to look great, fast when you have great car. MS at 42 is doing great against youngsters. It is not easy, but with shit of a car that he have , it is OK.
Maybe in the future we will another 42 year old in 4th fastest(shit) car and then we can make good comparison. Or we can take Mansell 1995 in 4th fastest car, didn't fare so well.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 15:02.


#12531 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 15:02

I don't agree that VP,AS,PdR can do better than Schu. Too many unknowns,for all I know Merc builds a rocket in 2012 and MS mops the floor with everyone.
Why not consider that?


OK, again. I'm considering it.

The difference between my stance and most others here is that I can accept most things as possible (however unlikely). Not one of the Schumacher fans here is capable of accepting the remotest possibility that he would be beaten by any of the names I've put forward.

Are you willing to consider my position?

#12532 ivand911

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 15:06

OK, again. I'm considering it.

The difference between my stance and most others here is that I can accept most things as possible (however unlikely). Not one of the Schumacher fans here is capable of accepting the remotest possibility that he would be beaten by any of the names I've put forward.

Are you willing to consider my position?

Lets stick with the facts. NR finish ahead of MS last year and is leading this year too. Is this enough for you? If drivers you put forward are better/equal than/to Nico, there is possibility that they can beat MS. Happy now. But it is not proven fact, as end result in WDC or something else. For now MS is better than everyone according to statistic and you need to accept that. Most titles and you know the rest. Mr. THE BEST and for long time me think. How not to be happy as MS fan? Next week SPA, 20 year anniversary.

Edited by ivand911, 20 August 2011 - 15:13.


#12533 Number62

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 15:15

Lets stick with the facts. NR finish ahead of MS last year and is leading this year too. Is this enough for you? If drivers you put forward are better/equal than/to Nico, there is possibility that they can beat MS. Happy now. But it is not proven fact, as end result in WDC or something else. For now MS is better than everyone according to statistic and you need to accept that. Most titles and you know the rest. Mr the BEST and for long time me think.


I was happy anyway but yeah, I can't take issue with anything you've said there.

#12534 fieraku

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 16:10

OK, again. I'm considering it.

The difference between my stance and most others here is that I can accept most things as possible (however unlikely). Not one of the Schumacher fans here is capable of accepting the remotest possibility that he would be beaten by any of the names I've put forward.

Are you willing to consider my position?

Yes everything's possible. It's F1 afterall.

#12535 zelpre

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Posted 20 August 2011 - 19:14

All Michael Schumacher fans, who have Facebook, please join this page: Micahel Schumacher Facebook Fan Page

#12536 arknor

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 00:56

All Michael Schumacher fans, who have Facebook, please join this page: Micahel Schumacher Facebook Fan Page

what happened to the one from when he used to drive for ferrari that had all the behind the scenes photos and stuff

Edited by arknor, 21 August 2011 - 00:57.


#12537 merschu

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:31

There was a page for Schumi which had more than 50,000 members and was growing but that was all of a sudden deleted possibly because I just couldn't find there page later. This probably happened because that page claimed itself to be the Official Michael Schumacher Page which might not have been the case!

#12538 zelpre

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:57

what happened to the one from when he used to drive for ferrari that had all the behind the scenes photos and stuff


There was a page for Schumi which had more than 50,000 members and was growing but that was all of a sudden deleted possibly because I just couldn't find there page later. This probably happened because that page claimed itself to be the Official Michael Schumacher Page which might not have been the case!


It was still up while the winter testing...Then in March it just disappeared.

That's why there's a new one. It is up just for 2 months now.

#12539 arknor

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 12:55

There was a page for Schumi which had more than 50,000 members and was growing but that was all of a sudden deleted possibly because I just couldn't find there page later. This probably happened because that page claimed itself to be the Official Michael Schumacher Page which might not have been the case!

i remember it having loads of photos from closed test sessions and stuff? im pretty sure it was official but maybe it was ran by someone at ferrari

Edited by arknor, 21 August 2011 - 12:55.


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#12540 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 13:29

It´s such an unfortunate that the old page is gone,it had such interesting images

#12541 Jejking

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Posted 21 August 2011 - 23:36

i remember it having loads of photos from closed test sessions and stuff? im pretty sure it was official but maybe it was ran by someone at ferrari

It´s such an unfortunate that the old page is gone,it had such interesting images

Who is able to put up a mirror for that one? I honestly haven't got a clue what you are talking about :)

#12542 zelpre

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 09:13

22.08.2011
Preview Belgian GP
20 years after the debut, Michael returns to Spa – Thank You to all fans for their loyalty and support

„The race in Spa will certainly have a special touch to it this time, as this is where I drove my first ever Formula 1 race 20 years ago. It is hard to believe that this is back such a long time. A lot has changed in those 20 years, but one thing has not: the track still is sensational. I just love this great nature and the resulting layout with all the ups and downs.
To me, Spa remains to be my living room, because it has been the stage for so many things which have been remarkable for my sporting career. This is why this time I would like to specifically send a big Thank You to all my fans for their loyalty and support that I was happy to be given in those 20 years and also since my comeback.
Talking about the sporting side prior to Spa, we are all returning from the summer break with fresh motivation and energy and will try to set an exclamation mark to the Belgian GP.“



#12543 puxanando

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 10:18

:cat: Schumi don't close the door to the DTM. Haug said: "never say never."

#12544 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:08

he hasn't enjoyed driving tin tops

#12545 Gintonious

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:18

Would love to see something special this weekend from him.

#12546 EdwardCullen

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 11:20

he hasn't enjoyed driving tin tops

Yes I remember him saying this
He used to say that the tin top cars are never so customizable as open wheelers, he could never set it up to his likings.
Yet he wins or comes second in ROC every time :up:

#12547 sharo

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 13:01

IIRC he said he can't be precise through the corners when he cannot see the wheels. That's why he's been most successful with the buggies there.

#12548 Scotracer

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 13:16

Yes I remember him saying this
He used to say that the tin top cars are never so customizable as open wheelers, he could never set it up to his likings.
Yet he wins or comes second in ROC every time :up:


Maybe because the drivers aren't allowed to modify the cars in ROC....

#12549 Clatter

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 13:33

Yes I remember him saying this
He used to say that the tin top cars are never so customizable as open wheelers, he could never set it up to his likings.
Yet he wins or comes second in ROC every time :up:


When did he win the ROC?

He and Vettel have a good record in the Nations cup, but niether has won the Champion of champions.

#12550 EdwardCullen

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Posted 22 August 2011 - 13:49

When did he win the ROC?

He and Vettel have a good record in the Nations cup, but niether has won the Champion of champions.

my bad , i meant the nation cup