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#13351 Myrvold

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 17:51

Well, there has been two Mercedes-tracks now, and there are some doubts about the lack of fuel in Rosbergs car in Spa. So, I'm not convinced.

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#13352 Andrew Hope

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:05

Too soon to say, but I've enjoyed watching his comeback from a neutral perspective - he's provided some of the most exciting stuff we've seen this season and I've love for him to nick a win. I hope stays for a couple more years yet, and if there's one thing to take away from his comeback it's that we tend to judge drivers too soon. If the best driver the sport's ever seen (statistically, whatever) takes this long to get up to speed (but actually does get up to speed when given the time), then I'd hope it means some people slow down on critiquing rookies one or two races into a career.

I've never had strong feelings either way about Schumacher. I started following the sport after his early years, and started following it seriously after his dominant years, so this, for lack of a better term, 'underdog Schumacher' is as real as he's ever been as a driver to me. Ten years from now this will be my memory of Schumi, not Ferrari or earlier, and whatever you may think of him, this year he's been fun as hell to watch, and very easy to like.

#13353 schubacca

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:33

MS in his prime is long gone. I say that as a hardcore MS fan. But youth must be served and the game moves on.

I will say that MS at 42 is a treat to watch and is doing things that other 32 year olds would have difficulty achieving.

Some perspective:

The Great Miki Hakinnen is 42
The WDC Jacques Villeneueve is 40
The Not-So-Great David Coulthard is 40
Kimi Raikonen is 31

I am not saying that he is now operating consistently at the level of LH, FA, or SV. But he is a treat to watch.



#13354 george1981

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:39

Well, there has been two Mercedes-tracks now, and there are some doubts about the lack of fuel in Rosbergs car in Spa. So, I'm not convinced.


I thought that Rosberg wasn't expecting to be that far ahead and hence used more fuel than expected.
However the same could be said for MS in Monza I doubt anyone at Mercedes thought he would be fighting for 3rd for so long so why wasn't MS low on fuel?


#13355 Afterburner

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:44

Too soon to say, but I've enjoyed watching his comeback from a neutral perspective - he's provided some of the most exciting stuff we've seen this season and I've love for him to nick a win. I hope stays for a couple more years yet, and if there's one thing to take away from his comeback it's that we tend to judge drivers too soon. If the best driver the sport's ever seen (statistically, whatever) takes this long to get up to speed (but actually does get up to speed when given the time), then I'd hope it means some people slow down on critiquing rookies one or two races into a career.

This. :up:

I personally don't think he's 'back' yet--he probably won't be setting a new standard in comparison to his old form--but his form on these last few reaces has been really good. I think, realistically, we'll only know if he ever lost it when he finds himself in with a shot at the championship again.

The Great Miki Hakinnen is 42

Haha, a Schumacher/Hakkinen pairing at Mercedes after all these years would be nothing short of hilarious, amazing, and a complete failure all at the same time. :p

Edited by Afterburner, 14 September 2011 - 19:47.


#13356 Fastcake

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:44

The Schumacher at his championship dominating past is long gone. He has in general performed averagely, nothing poor, but nothing really good either. He's put in a good performance or two, but these have been exceptions rather than his general form.

#13357 salamin

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:46

The Schumacher at his championship dominating past is long gone. He has in general performed averagely, nothing poor, but nothing really good either. He's put in a good performance or two, but these have been exceptions rather than his general form.


still he is catching his highly rated team mate in points

Edited by salamin, 14 September 2011 - 18:46.


#13358 Tardis40

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:51

He's extracting everything the car has to offer, and a bit more. Give him a better car, achieve a better result.


#13359 Longtimefan

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:53

He never went away, just fighting with a crap car that handles like a truck.



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#13360 Boing 2

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:58

Wasn't he already back at Hungary last year?

#13361 faaaz

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 18:58

Old Schumacher = Beating team mates in quali and race

Until that becomes consistent, can't really say he is the old Schuey. I suspect he'll have a tough job doing that with Rosberg

#13362 phil1993

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 19:05

Another few good performances and I'd say yes. Spa & Monza are the two strong tracks for Mercedes. Schumacher was awful in Singapore last year and the car is unlikely to be strong there. So lets wait and see.

#13363 Wi000

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 19:20

Wasn't he already back at Hungary last year?

Epic stuff it was, it's rumored Barrichello regularly wakes up at night sweating, thinking of this awesome duel where he was once again humiliated by Schumi. :cool:


#13364 arknor

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 19:33

Another few good performances and I'd say yes. Spa & Monza are the two strong tracks for Mercedes. Schumacher was awful in Singapore last year and the car is unlikely to be strong there. So lets wait and see.

last year the car had no traction , barely any mechanical grip etc the car doesnt look as much a handful at all it just isnt quick enough i doubt he will be struggling at singapore

#13365 rm111

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 21:19

MS in his prime is long gone. I say that as a hardcore MS fan. But youth must be served and the game moves on.

I will say that MS at 42 is a treat to watch and is doing things that other 32 year olds would have difficulty achieving.

:up:

#13366 Group B

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 21:24

Old Schumacher = Beating team mates in quali and race

Until that becomes consistent, can't really say he is the old Schuey. I suspect he'll have a tough job doing that with Rosberg

It won't. I'm a big fan and love to see the glimpses of old MS, but there's no way MS 2011 can demonstrate the raw speed of MS 1990s. That's not to say he can't still be very much worthy of a seat however, as we've seen in recent races.

#13367 Massa_f1

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 21:26

Another few good performances and I'd say yes. Spa & Monza are the two strong tracks for Mercedes. Schumacher was awful in Singapore last year and the car is unlikely to be strong there. So lets wait and see.



I as a fan am already expecting little to be honest. i will be pleased with 8th or 9th in Singapore, because i think thats the max he will be able to get out of the car.

#13368 sharo

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 22:09

The finishing place is of little importance to me as long as I see master drive.
After Monza I keep thinking how he managed to keep a comparable speed through the curves with so little grip and even some times to brake later than Lewis on the straight.

#13369 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 22:20

To me it seems that Schumy has put his head in place during this summer break,he drove like a rookie hungry for points in Spa and Monza,the way he closed the door at Lewis was just the old Schumy back.
I truly expect Merc to be competitive in Singapore

#13370 Wretched

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 22:32

If only Merc could build a decent car that could be on par with the Mcl/Ferrari/RB cars. I'd like to see what Schuey could do then.

#13371 George Costanza

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 22:58

If only Merc could build a decent car that could be on par with the Mcl/Ferrari/RB cars. I'd like to see what Schuey could do then.



Schu would be quite at a sight to see; granted it might not be like 1998 Schumacher; but he can peform at his 2006 level.

#13372 Frans

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 02:33

See it this way; ...

I am 4th, and YOU ARE 5th.

question again...

think...


.....Think HARRRRRRRRD.....



are you REALLY happy?



(ps, read between the lines)


:smoking: :rotfl:

Edited by Frans, 15 September 2011 - 02:33.


#13373 Clatter

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 08:06

I thought that Rosberg wasn't expecting to be that far ahead and hence used more fuel than expected.
However the same could be said for MS in Monza I doubt anyone at Mercedes thought he would be fighting for 3rd for so long so why wasn't MS low on fuel?


Once LH was past he could have gone into fuel saving mode. There was plenty of race left for that. What would be interesting to know is if he could have continued the fight all the way to the end of the race without fuel issues.

#13374 as65p

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 08:31

Once LH was past he could have gone into fuel saving mode. There was plenty of race left for that. What would be interesting to know is if he could have continued the fight all the way to the end of the race without fuel issues.


The SC at the beginning basically meant that fuel issues were unlikely for anyone.

#13375 Clatter

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 08:36

The SC at the beginning basically meant that fuel issues were unlikely for anyone.


Was it out for long enough to have real impact?

#13376 TheBunk

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 08:36

Schumacher :up:

#13377 GoRacing

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 08:48

From Mark's BBC column, talk about favourities!! We all know Mark and Fernando are good friends and well, we all know how he gets along with Seb, so it's all a bit pathetic really to read this:

"There were two major talking points after Monza - the battle between Lewis Hamilton and Michael Schumacher, and Seb overtaking Fernando Alonso for the lead.

It was a unique fight between Michael and Lewis because the McLaren was running up against the rev limiter, so Michael had a speed advantage on the straights. He could position his car very cutely to try to keep him out.

There were a few times when Michael returned to the normal line having defended. That's the point of interest because it's not what most drivers understand to be acceptable.

Once incident in particular stood out - out of the second chicane and into Lesmo, when Lewis had a clear run and Michael went across to defend and then came back again.

Moving that many times was pushing the boundaries.

The incident between Seb and Fernando was completely different.

I have seen that Fernando has copped some criticism for easing Seb out to the edge of the track, but he did nothing wrong.

He did nothing erratic; it was a hard, consistent squeeze. They were side by side and at some point Seb touched the grass. "


http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/14921814.stm

#13378 TheBunk

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 08:51

Mate, those collumns are written by ghost writers. Probably Andrew Benson.

#13379 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:00

Mate, those collumns are written by ghost writers. Probably Andrew Benson.

Even if it was a ghost writer they are still approved by the 'name'. My nephew ghostwrites regularly for sports publications, which is how I know this.

Having said that, the 'name' won't always read that carefully (but usually do).

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#13380 ivand911

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:02

Mate, those collumns are written by ghost writers. Probably Andrew Benson.

At the end:
"Mark Webber was talking to BBC Sport's Andrew Benson. Read his exclusive column every Thursday."

Edited by ivand911, 15 September 2011 - 09:02.


#13381 TheBunk

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:03

There you go :) (hadnt even read it entirely)

#13382 Diablobb81

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:05

Well Schumacher is pushing the limits and Webber is pushing Massa. :rotfl:

I do think Webber is one of the last one's that should talk about safe driving.

#13383 as65p

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:06

Was it out for long enough to have real impact?


Well, wasn't it something like "3 SC laps give you one additional racing lap"? Roughly, and of course depending on the track. Not 100 percent sure, though.

#13384 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:08

Well, wasn't it something like "3 SC laps give you one additional racing lap"? Roughly, and of course depending on the track. Not 100 percent sure, though.

Unless it's Rosberg, apparently, but that's another thread entirely.

#13385 ivand911

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:18

Well, wasn't it something like "3 SC laps give you one additional racing lap"? Roughly, and of course depending on the track. Not 100 percent sure, though.

Guys, Ross Brawn explain that you don't save fuel now with SC. They burnt the excess fuel. Right answer is MS wouldn't have fuel problem, because first he didn't push really hard after Lewis pass. Second, maybe he fill car with enough fuel? Third, we don't hear all messages when teams tell their drivers to save fuel. So, we get wrong picture and some of you make wrong conclusion from this. Maybe 80% from the drivers need to save fuel at some stage of the race or they will finish with excess fuel which is not good for their speed. I am just surprised why then don't share with us when Trulli need to save fuel or Liuzzi or D'Ambrosio? Just shocked. :lol: I am sure that you like me, are worried when this guys run out of fuel.

Edited by ivand911, 15 September 2011 - 09:21.


#13386 as65p

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:27

Guys, Ross Brawn explain that you don't save fuel now with SC. They burnt the excess fuel.


Yeah, I was wondering about that too recently, they could of course do that to save weight for the rest of the race. Point is, an SC phase gives you options, you could go risky and burn fuel to save weight, or the opposite, save fuel so you can attack all race.

All in all there are many variables at play here for each driver/team/car combo and we hardly have enough info to judge. All we see is the end result, if it somehow goes wrong.

For Monza, we can only conclude that both MS and Hamilton (especially Hamilton, as he was pushing right through the end) had enough fuel, despite their intense battle.

#13387 as65p

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:30

Unless it's Rosberg, apparently, but that's another thread entirely.


Hm, maybe in Belgium they did with him like ivand911 suggested, chosing the risky option to make the car lighter.

#13388 walkindude

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 09:58

Love seeing the controversial Schumi back.It does get him at a higher level.No more Mr. Nice Guy please

#13389 Sakae

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:14

Problem is as I see it, that men who live at the performance-edge challenge more than one factor; next to speed, regulations, ethics, safety, personal desires, etc. Not all of us on the outside can always comprehend fine nuances on which side of the line he is. The ambiguity is not necessary evil, or illegal, but simply not understood well as it is not a domain we live in.

Edited by Sakae, 15 September 2011 - 10:14.


#13390 ali.unal

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:28

Love seeing the controversial Schumi back.It does get him at a higher level.No more Mr. Nice Guy please

I had thought the same when he overtook Alonso after SC came in at Monaco 2010 race. I felt he had to include himself into the fight between new kids on the block group so that he could find that last spark. The old Schumacher, the never-ever-given-up Schumacher, the ruthless and always opportunist Schumacher. Well, rest of that season proved me wrong. I hope these last two races of him won't do the same.

#13391 GoRacing

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:35

Well Schumacher is pushing the limits and Webber is pushing Massa. :rotfl:

I do think Webber is one of the last one's that should talk about safe driving.


I fully agree, how ironic that in the same race, Mark's driving was so bad and was himself lucky to escape any penalty for his stupid move on Massa.

#13392 ivand911

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 11:02

Mark Webber is a joke. After what he did to Massa he have come to talk about MS driving, when they even didn't touch with Lewis. :down: I have other opinion about Australians.

#13393 Tardis40

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 11:36

I do think Webber is one of the last one's that should talk about safe driving.


Yeah, now that Coulthard is retired.

#13394 MightyMoose

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 12:10

That column is just another continuation of Andrew Benson's agenda against MS.

The problem is the average person reads it and thinks "Oooh, nasty Schumacher up to his usual tricks" whereas the truth is not quite as blatant as that. To use MW's column for his own agenda is journalistic bias of an appalling nature, but to be expected by certain members of the BBC of which Benson is clearly a vocal member.

Given MW is far from an angel on the track (though he does appear to have calmed down since Valencia 2010), as previously mentioned, he was quite lucky to avoid a sanction for the Massa crash - guess that evens out the LH ambush at Canada on him!

Worth noting though that MW needed a substantial amount of 'filling' for the column, guess that's what happens when you only last 10% of the race!!!!

I'd hate to think what may happen if MS drives a race like LH did @ Monaco, Benson would probably have to wipe down his laptop.....

#13395 Diablobb81

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 12:17

Well, apparently he is doing his job :
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/94553

With a shit car it's those few moments (along with him in Canada and Spa, and Nico in China(?) and Spa) that at least somewhat save the Merc season.

#13396 Number62

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 12:53

That column is just another continuation of Andrew Benson's agenda against MS.

The problem is the average person reads it and thinks "Oooh, nasty Schumacher up to his usual tricks" whereas the truth is not quite as blatant as that. To use MW's column for his own agenda is journalistic bias of an appalling nature, but to be expected by certain members of the BBC of which Benson is clearly a vocal member.

Given MW is far from an angel on the track (though he does appear to have calmed down since Valencia 2010), as previously mentioned, he was quite lucky to avoid a sanction for the Massa crash - guess that evens out the LH ambush at Canada on him!

Worth noting though that MW needed a substantial amount of 'filling' for the column, guess that's what happens when you only last 10% of the race!!!!

I'd hate to think what may happen if MS drives a race like LH did @ Monaco, Benson would probably have to wipe down his laptop.....


Having worked for the BBC I can tell you that is tosh. Benson wouldn't last 10 seconds if he was using Webbers column for his own agenda. The libel police would be all over it and will always demand webber (or his assigned attorney) has sign off on final copy. Even if it is ghost written. Looks more like dictation to me.



#13397 TheBunk

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 13:18

Having worked for the BBC I can tell you that is tosh. Benson wouldn't last 10 seconds if he was using Webbers column for his own agenda. The libel police would be all over it and will always demand webber (or his assigned attorney) has sign off on final copy. Even if it is ghost written. Looks more like dictation to me.



Yes, but as Webber doesnt have a clue how to write, its very likely Benson summed up the points he wanted to mention and asked Webber for his opinion. Very easy to spritz your own agenda then, if you pardon me the Bruno-slang.

Edited by TheBunk, 15 September 2011 - 13:18.


#13398 arknor

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 13:19

Yes, but as Webber doesnt have a clue how to write, its very likely Benson summed up the points he wanted to mention and asked Webber for his opinion. Very easy to spritz your own agenda then, if you pardon me the Bruno-slang.

doubt webber even ever sees it more than likely whoever handles his PR sees it..
same as most twitter accounts and facebook pages arent actually anyone but the persons PR

#13399 Number62

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 13:25

Yes, but as Webber doesnt have a clue how to write, its very likely Benson summed up the points he wanted to mention and asked Webber for his opinion. Very easy to spritz your own agenda then, if you pardon me the Bruno-slang.


How do you know wether Webber can write or not, very arrogant and presumptuous.

That is not how the BBC works. You could probably get away with it once but you'd be found out very quickly by peer review and sign off authority. The BBC is very risk averse when it comes to assigned opinion.

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#13400 Diablobb81

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 13:27

Good, so both Benson and Webber are tossers. :rotfl: