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#1301 eoin

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 08:55

Sir Stirling Moss is certainly not holding back.;)

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/15453.html

Particularly damning.

"People say it's because he's been away for three years and that sort of stuff, but I'm going to stick to what I said at the start of the season: Until now, he's never had a truly competitive team-mate," Moss said. "His seven world titles are, in my mind, misleading and I think we are seeing proof of that now he is up against Rosberg. Rosberg has proved himself as the team's No.1 and he's been faster than Schumacher in all circumstances.


He contradicts that by saying- "People are going to say that he's past it now, which he probably is". So if a 'past it' driver gets beaten it reduces his talents when he was at his peak?

His final quote is much more interesting:

What's more I'm not sure he is taking F1 as seriously as he was earlier in his career. You need a compulsion to be there, you can't just do it for fun, and I don't think Schumacher has that compulsion anymore. To win you need to believe that there is no way anybody else can beat you and, frankly, I don't think he's in that kind of mindset. It seems as though this year is just part of his retirement rather than an extension of his career.


I guess time will tell.


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#1302 ademm

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:01

It will be interesting to see what he will say after Schumacher starts beating Rosberg.

#1303 Obi Offiah

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:07

setting the car up simply for a good qualifying lap isn't any good. The set-up has to be a compromise with the race in mind. So, his qualifying performance isn't a seperate issue.


Good point :up:
As I mentioned, personally I think its a case of the car not suiting him at the moment and him not being able to adapt/modify his driving style.

#1304 Muz Bee

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:11

Good point :up:
As I mentioned, personally I think its a case of the car not suiting him at the moment and him not being able to adapt/modify his driving style.

The guy who was astonishingly good at driving around a car's shortcomings.... The theory that MS is/was the greatest of all time (GOAT) demands a new supporting theory to hold water. Tick, tick, tick....


#1305 Dancing_Donkey

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:45

In F1 you are only as good as your last race, but I think far too much is being made of China. I think it was a blip.

I expect Michael to be back to where he was at the start of the season in Barcelona. About 1-2 tenths behind Nico. And if he gets the luck at the start he could easily beat Nico in the race. There is no doubt he has been unlucky at the start a couple of times.

#1306 as65p

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:07

The guy who was astonishingly good at driving around a car's shortcomings.... The theory that MS is/was the greatest of all time (GOAT) demands a new supporting theory to hold water. Tick, tick, tick....


I wouldn't go that far. Everyone here knows that I always had my reservations about MS (that's putting it mildly) but nothing of it is based on his showings this season.

I still think it's the simplest of reasons: in competition terms he's an old fart by now, a mere shadow of his former self. I guess there are too many around here who fit the same description (me included) and they're a bit reluctant to accept this banal reason for MS' poor showings.

#1307 Buttoneer

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:20

I've had to delete posts. Please cut out the trolling and stop discussing each other.

#1308 Obi Offiah

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:27

I guess there are too many around here who fit the same description (me included) and they're a bit reluctant to accept this banal reason for MS' poor showings.

Michael does seem to have an issue with rear grip and tyre wear, I don't think there's anything banal about that.

#1309 BRK

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:28

So it's all right to call Bernie Ecclestone- a man that has transformed the sport and is smart enough a businessman to have amassed a fortune,wealthier than the vast majority of us in here -senile,but not a former driver who's older than Bernie and is revered for something that he couldn't achieve? The man's ancient history: let's dismiss the talk and move on.

#1310 Dragonfly

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 10:40

This thread is becoming more and more ugly and I'm going to refrain from comments until there is really something to comment.

#1311 aditya-now

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 11:42

This thread is becoming more and more ugly and I'm going to refrain from comments until there is really something to comment.


Good comment! :up:

 ;)




#1312 angst

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:00

ohh dear as much id love not wasting time on this,ill give it another try..


Oh, how very gracious of you...


again and again and again,ill point to you that this wear issue that he was worried about was not because his style causes increases degradation,this is because they had to decrease the rear traction too much to stop the car understeering.form bbc

Team principal Ross Brawn confirmed that his team had under-reacted to the new-for-2010 narrower tyres and as a result, the car's dynamics had resulted in a naturally understeering car.

It was a vicious circle: The car's weight distribution is wrong, according to Brawn, so bring weight forward and work the fronts harder to get the car to Schumacher's liking. But as a result the rear is light so traction is poor, which means the rear slides and wears out the tyres.


So...., sorry, the car naturally understeers, Schumacher - in his attempts to compensate, to enable 'oversteer' - degrades the cars rear grip further and it isn't his driving style that is causing him problems? Ok :rolleyes:


ths same thing i wrote above(and have been writing for the last three pages).NOBODY SAID TYRE WEAR HASNT BEEN AN ISSUE FOR SCHUMACHER THIS YEAR.its your repeated failure to understand that its was the balance issues that were causing the rear tyre degradation .from the same article..

Even Nico Rosberg, who can handle this car better, complained of high tyre degradation on the intermediates.

schumacher naturally suffers from more tyre wear because of his driving technique.a hamilton/vettel ,logic prevailing,would suffer from the same rear tyre wear if put inside a mercedes.


So, you accept that Schumacher suffers more tyre wear because of his driving style, but then equally claim that his tyre wear problems are not as a result of his driving style? You say here that "even Nico Rosberg, who can handle this car better.." also has tyre wear problems, but then fail to acknowledge that those tyre degradation problems are not as severe as his teammates. And why can he handle this car better? Because his driving style is not the same as Schumacher's, which (as you have accepted above) "naturally" causes higher tyre wear.



what more do u want me to explain???..seriously.

schumacher has tyre wear issues...nobody ever negated that.

sliding the rears causes wear..same as above

his qualifying setups can be influenced by his tyre trouble in race....same as above

for the millionth time,this is not because his style does that...for heaven's sake try to learn and get and perspective.


Just stop and read the fullness of your posting here, and understand the contradictions in your 'logic'.



i never say said/meant that..youre whole idea was that it was schumi's driving style that made him wear his tyres so badly at china.,surely youre implying he was driving with an aggressive setup ,that made the tyres wear a lot more than rosberg..u cant have it both ways.either he had a conservative setup,no speed in quali but saves tyres in races..or he goes aggressive and shreds his tyres..but shouldnt he be showing his normal quali speed when he does that???......and the quote u posted even manages to negate your own theory.he said theyd been too conservative with the setups in the first two races...surely implying they planned to have more aggressive setups for the coming weekends,right?...well tyre wear at china was the brutal ,showing perhaps they did do that.and where was he in the qualifying speed with respect to rosberg?..

its your failure to understand the most basic things.when your struggling with understeer,youre going to struggle.be it qualifying or the race.


Ahem..... and you accuse me of not understanding. Schumacher has tried to compensate for the understeer in his car by artificially lessening the rear-end grip. This means more sliding, and yet no more grip on the front end. The result - slower lap times and both increased rear-end sliding (higher rear tyre wear) and still the issue of front end degradation. By trying to cope with a car that fundamentally does not suit his style he has compensated its handling to a point where he can neither be fast nor preserve the tyres.



again,i never said that..what i wanted was to stop you from talking about driving styles when you dont have anywhere near enough understanding of the subject.its the posts such as these that makes one wonder if you are being ridiculous on purpose..quote from your previous post.

posted by angst


So, according to your 'logic', Vettel and Hamilton have exactly the same driving style as Schumacher? There are differences. That's the first point. Secondly, Schumacher's tyre wear problems have been enhanced by the nature of his car - where those other drivers have not, and at the moment we have little evidence as to how those drivers will be with regard to tyre wear (though from Bridgestone reports after qualifying in China it seems that Hamilton may suffer considerably more tyre degradation than Button..). So, why don't you put your faux expertise back into the dark cupboard it came from (and belongs) and discuss the topic.

Edited by angst, 28 April 2010 - 12:03.


#1313 grunge

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:03

Oh, how very gracious of you...

what more do u want me to explain???..

rear slides,rear slides,rear slides!!!...do u even know what that term means???...ive explained this before as well,its not like shumacher is doing something that nobody does..amateur kart racers learn to use controlled rear slides for heaven's sake!,specially thru the faster stuff...its a technique a lot of these top guys bring from karting experience.....but why would u know anything about this????

and again i ask u,why readers of this thread have to suffer for the fact that you have never ever stepped into a basic go-kart and dont know jack about the stuff youre bringing up?..

im giving up.on your merry ways

Edited by grunge, 28 April 2010 - 12:05.


#1314 angst

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:15

what more do u want me to explain???..

rear slides,rear slides,rear slides!!!...do u even know what that term means???...ive explained this before as well,its not like shumacher is doing something that nobody does..amateur kart racers learn to use controlled rear slides for heaven's sake!,specially thru the faster stuff...its a technique a lot of these top guys bring from karting experience.....but why would u know anything about this????

and again i ask u,why readers of this thread have to suffer for the fact that you have never ever stepped into a basic go-kart and dont know jack about the stuff youre bringing up?..

im giving up.on your merry ways


So, are you now claiming that all the drivers are using the same driving style? Yet you acknowledge that Schumacher's driving style is different from Rosberg's. I don't know what it is you are trying to say here. Does Schumacher have a different driving style, which relies more on the rear end slides (and braking deeper into a corner, retaining more momentum...., all those things he has been renowned for as a differential in his driving style that has made him the 'greatest' race driver of his era..) from others or are you now suggesting that Schumacher's driving style is no different?

Again, put your faux expertise away.


#1315 cheapracer

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:25

Strange. In 2005 Moss said Raikkonen was a top dog, and an MS Teamate was just as good as him. He says Button is a top driver and another MS teamate was also just as good. Yet he says MS never had competitive teamates. I must be missing something.


Missing nothing, Moss is a nobody who has relied totally on his mouth to keep food on his table for a long time now. His "I'm Stirling Moss and your not" attitude wore out a long time ago for me. It's weird that the man doesn't seem to be the same Stirling Moss of legend.

Rather listen to JYS anyday when it comes to Brit legends of old.

#1316 cheapracer

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:35

And head held high, untainted by negative controversy. I never detected a hint of envy or bitterness when I interviewed Sir SM, just a gent who held to a code of honour which some drivers still do, others sadly have not seen the relevance of such etiquette.


Which brings the obvious question;

Have you interviewed Michael Schumacher to make fair comparison?

I'll leave out the mega million dollar sport making etiquette well and truly redundent many, many years ago comments.

#1317 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:38

Wasn't it SM who said he doesn't understand why the drivers are being paid so much these days? He or Brabham said that lol

#1318 pedrovski

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 12:42

what more do u want me to explain???..

rear slides,rear slides,rear slides!!!...do u even know what that term means???...ive explained this before as well,its not like shumacher is doing something that nobody does..amateur kart racers learn to use controlled rear slides for heaven's sake!,specially thru the faster stuff...its a technique a lot of these top guys bring from karting experience.....but why would u know anything about this????

and again i ask u,why readers of this thread have to suffer for the fact that you have never ever stepped into a basic go-kart and dont know jack about the stuff youre bringing up?..

im giving up.on your merry ways

I think your mixing up go Kart dynamics with race car dynamics, over on the tech forums they've mentioned that what can be true for a Kart can be the opposite for a race car. If the merc understeers for MS and they've softened the front and stiffened the rear to get it to turn the way he likes then he may be lacking rear end grip for the exit and moving the cg foward will allow more rear end grip.
I don't buy the idea that the merc is fundamentally flawed if it was they'd be a couple of secs off the pace.
The bottom line is the that Schumacher can't use all the grip the car provides. Funnily enough Keke rosberg had the same problem at mclaren in '86.


#1319 pedrovski

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 13:24

From AMuS

-Wheelbase extended from the front by approx. 2 inches.
-Weight distribution moved rearwards.
-Schumacher has 0.2% more foward weight distribution than rosberg, which increased understeer.
-Due to rosberg being 4kgs lighter more ballast could be put rearwards.
-The damaged 03 chassis is being examined.

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#1320 grunge

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 14:30

I think your mixing up go Kart dynamics with race car dynamics, over on the tech forums they've mentioned that what can be true for a Kart can be the opposite for a race car. If the merc understeers for MS and they've softened the front and stiffened the rear to get it to turn the way he likes then he may be lacking rear end grip for the exit and moving the cg foward will allow more rear end grip.
I don't buy the idea that the merc is fundamentally flawed if it was they'd be a couple of secs off the pace.
The bottom line is the that Schumacher can't use all the grip the car provides. Funnily enough Keke rosberg had the same problem at mclaren in '86.

i wasnt saying the dynamics are similar,the point i was making is many drivers with oversteery turn ins produce minimal rear slides on corner exit..there is nothing abnormal with it..what i was mentioning was that these drivers carry many of their karting instincts onto f1.they learn to control those slidesl alot more as they advance thru profeesional racing..like power oversteer etc.there is no doubts the dynamics in karting vary hugely to f1.karts dont have a differential which means they are going to slide most often than not.

the point here is that rear slides are not always ''abnormal''..the oversteer preferring drivers like schumacher/raikkonen actually have rear slides thru both slow/fast corners.the difference there is the slide is actually ''controlled''..i-e u end up carrying maximum momentum thru the corner without losing too much time correcting the slide.u cant simply point to a driver saying he is making his rears slide so he must be destroying his tyres.

the problem with schumacher has been discussed before.brawn was quoted in bbc saying they had underestimated the impact the narrow fronts in car development and thus understandbly the final product was a car that tended to understeer.the ''ideal'' solution to that problem is a major wing/suspension upgrade(more front wing/softer front sus in general terms) ..as there was no time for this,to correct the problem they decreased rear grip by shifting the aerodynamic load settings more to the front.they did that so they decrease the US tendency.they overshot(quoting brawn) and the rear lost too much grip...the sliding became uncontrollable which resulted in too much time lost and high rear wear.

and no,the merc isnt ''fundamentally''' flawed.its impossible to produce a car that remains perfectly neutral thru every corner.most of them have a tendency to under/oversteer..the merc understeers for fact,a tendency that cripples oversteer preferring drivers.

Edited by grunge, 28 April 2010 - 14:36.


#1321 grunge

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 14:56

to further illustrate the point i was making about the rear slides further,this is an excerpt taken from the ''the slide rulers'' autosport article

His(raikkonen's) slow corner technique is highly distinctive. He is brilliant at inducing a controlled rear end slide with the brakes, getting it so that the momentum is just right; not so small that it becomes a time-consuming twitch, not so big that it delays being able to get on the throttle. Typically the slide will be just melting away as the apex is reached and the axis of the car will now be perfectly in line with the corner, enabling him to get fully on the power when other drivers are still scrabbling out wide, waiting.

The technique is similar to that employed by Michael Schumacher, which these days tends to be less visible because the Ferrari’s trick transmission seems to take care of much of that. But Raikonen’s style is rather different form Schuey’s in the faster stuff. He’s more conventional, tending to use later, more geometrically correct lines. He doesn’t much use his slow corner braking induced axis pivoting technique on faster corners, unlike Schuey.


and

This contrasts with Juan Pablo Montoya who, from a similar turn in point, doesn’t induce a slide, but will take just enough in so that the car is on the very edge. Inevitably it sometimes goes over and it’s then that JPM’s famed reaction save will come into play; his car control is used to bring the car back from sudden, catastrophic lack of grip.

Raikkonen induces the rear into the slide earlier, losing some time there perhaps, but trying to make up for it by balancing that tightrope for longer. Raikkonen’s lateral G traces on the telemetry will probably be less spiky than JPM’s, with lower peaks but higher lows."

Edited by grunge, 28 April 2010 - 14:57.


#1322 angst

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 15:50

to further illustrate the point i was making about the rear slides further,this is an excerpt taken from the ''the slide rulers'' autosport article

His(raikkonen's) slow corner technique is highly distinctive. He is brilliant at inducing a controlled rear end slide with the brakes, getting it so that the momentum is just right; not so small that it becomes a time-consuming twitch, not so big that it delays being able to get on the throttle. Typically the slide will be just melting away as the apex is reached and the axis of the car will now be perfectly in line with the corner, enabling him to get fully on the power when other drivers are still scrabbling out wide, waiting.

The technique is similar to that employed by Michael Schumacher, which these days tends to be less visible because the Ferrari’s trick transmission seems to take care of much of that. But Raikonen’s style is rather different form Schuey’s in the faster stuff. He’s more conventional, tending to use later, more geometrically correct lines. He doesn’t much use his slow corner braking induced axis pivoting technique on faster corners, unlike Schuey.


and

This contrasts with Juan Pablo Montoya who, from a similar turn in point, doesn’t induce a slide, but will take just enough in so that the car is on the very edge. Inevitably it sometimes goes over and it’s then that JPM’s famed reaction save will come into play; his car control is used to bring the car back from sudden, catastrophic lack of grip.

Raikkonen induces the rear into the slide earlier, losing some time there perhaps, but trying to make up for it by balancing that tightrope for longer. Raikkonen’s lateral G traces on the telemetry will probably be less spiky than JPM’s, with lower peaks but higher lows."


Hmmmm..

Perhaps, at some point, you might highlight my alleged ignorance by contradicting something I have said.

This, here, is very straightforward stuff. You think I do not understand what a rear wheel slide is? I'm trying to fathom how you have come to this conclusion. Here is what I have claimed;

That Schumacher's driving style tends toward preferring oversteer - which you accept.

That the resultant rear wheel slide tends toward greater tyre wear than someone who relies less on such a driving style - which you accept, even describing it with the term "naturally".

So, the corollary of this is that Schumacher's driving style results in generally greater rear tyre wear than other drivers who have different driving styles. As you can see the top two claims "naturally" result in this third posit - it is as near perfectly logical as one could ever hope for.

Schumacher has struggled in comparison to his teammate particularly because of this difference in driving style between them (ie, Rosberg relies less on oversteer and rear wheel slides), and this difference has been exaggerated because the car naturally understeers. In his efforts to induce oversteer into his car Schumacher has ended up with a car that lacks rear grip while not making any real strides in promoting front-end grip, resulting in a situation where he is losing speed (so his qualifying performances suffer as well) and his tyre degradation problems are, if anything, exacerbated.

So, you then claim that - surely - these other 'oversteer' drivers will also suffer. My response was that, there is evidence in one case that this is, indeed, the case (Hamilton in comparison with Button). In terms of Vettel, its difficult to say as both drivers in the team have pretty similar driving styles - but the same report from Bridgestone highlighted the Red Bulls as the worst of the three pace-setters this year so far (Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull).....

My other point was that a driver having a similar driving style does not mean they have the same driving style - if that were so they would be equally quick, surely.... And so, you have countered my point by...., errmm highlighting that the driver's styles are different. And quite how we can judge the tyre degradation issues in 2010 by examining Raikkonen's similar (but different) driving style is a mystery to me.

So, pray, oh great and all-knowing one, please point out where I have been ignorant, for I see nothing that you have said that contradicts me.


#1323 grunge

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 17:19

So, pray, oh great and all-knowing one, please point out where I have been ignorant, for I see nothing that you have said that contradicts me.

the above mentioned post was not for your benefit,my child.i was given up on you...it was posted in response to pedrovski so that other mortals could read and learn.

hokay,one last ditch effort.

In his efforts to induce oversteer into his car Schumacher has ended up with a car that lacks rear grip while not making any real strides in promoting front-end grip, resulting in a situation where he is losing speed (so his qualifying performances suffer as well) and his tyre degradation problems are, if anything, exacerbated.


and all of this because the mercedes is inherently ''understeery''.i-e their wing/suspension development has gone in a direction where the final package tends to understeer on balanced load settings..if the car had a neutral to oversteer setup,he wouldnt have to go for such extreme front load settings to ''induce'' oversteer.

as amus reported merc will have a longer wheelbase which will add more flexibility.if MS still has wear problems inspite of a more balanced weight distribution,then perhaps u'd be just in claiming he wears them faster than other oversteer guys.

Edited by grunge, 28 April 2010 - 17:44.


#1324 FNG

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 17:30

Yeah, how dare anyone say one negative word about the god that is Schumi. :rolleyes:



I actually happen to like Sterling Moss, but his comments were moronic. He suggests that his 7 world titles are all tainted because he never had a real teamate? Gimme a break. His comments are getting worse and worse everytime I read them. My comments were as silly as his were. People need to lighten up. I'm not even a huge MS fan!

#1325 Messi10

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 17:39

to further illustrate the point i was making about the rear slides further,this is an excerpt taken from the ''the slide rulers'' autosport article

His(raikkonen's) slow corner technique is highly distinctive. He is brilliant at inducing a controlled rear end slide with the brakes, getting it so that the momentum is just right; not so small that it becomes a time-consuming twitch, not so big that it delays being able to get on the throttle. Typically the slide will be just melting away as the apex is reached and the axis of the car will now be perfectly in line with the corner, enabling him to get fully on the power when other drivers are still scrabbling out wide, waiting.

The technique is similar to that employed by Michael Schumacher, which these days tends to be less visible because the Ferrari’s trick transmission seems to take care of much of that. But Raikonen’s style is rather different form Schuey’s in the faster stuff. He’s more conventional, tending to use later, more geometrically correct lines. He doesn’t much use his slow corner braking induced axis pivoting technique on faster corners, unlike Schuey.


and

This contrasts with Juan Pablo Montoya who, from a similar turn in point, doesn’t induce a slide, but will take just enough in so that the car is on the very edge. Inevitably it sometimes goes over and it’s then that JPM’s famed reaction save will come into play; his car control is used to bring the car back from sudden, catastrophic lack of grip.

Raikkonen induces the rear into the slide earlier, losing some time there perhaps, but trying to make up for it by balancing that tightrope for longer. Raikkonen’s lateral G traces on the telemetry will probably be less spiky than JPM’s, with lower peaks but higher lows."



so Montoya had (s) amazing car control and preferred an oversteering car however he failed to match kimi in the same car and struggled to adapt with the balance of the mclaren as it was mostly suited to kimi's driving style. What else is new?




#1326 grunge

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 17:48


so Montoya had (s) amazing car control and preferred an oversteering car however he failed to match kimi in the same car and struggled to adapt with the balance of the mclaren as it was mostly suited to kimi's driving style. What else is new?

the excerpt was posted in relation to ''rear slides''.it has nothing to do with kimi/montoya or mclaren..read the previous posts to get the right context before u start commenting.take your flame baits elsewhere

Edited by grunge, 28 April 2010 - 17:49.


#1327 Messi10

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 17:55

the excerpt was posted in relation to ''rear slides''.it has nothing to do with kimi/montoya or mclaren..read the previous posts to get the right context before u start commenting.take your flame baits elsewhere

I think you have an attitude problem. All this oversteer talk simply leads to one thing only which is that Shumi is not that special talent who can simply drive car X And maximize it's performance if it does not suit his style. He is just like any other drive basically who has struggled with similar issues in the past. People don't really need to read 30 pages on how that is possible in order to come up with this simple conclusion.

#1328 grunge

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 18:00

I think you have an attitude problem. All this oversteer talk simply leads to one thing only which is that Shumi is not that special talent who can simply drive car X And maximize it's performance if it does not suit his style. He is just like any other drive basically who has struggled with similar issues in the past. People don't really need to read 30 pages on how that is possible in order to come up with this simple conclusion.

stop trolling....again ill tell u to read the previous posts and atleast try to get the context of what me/angst were ranting about...im absolutely astonished at how raikkonen/montoya gets dragged into this.

#1329 Messi10

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 18:10

take a chill pill before replying next time.
I can reply to any information that gets posted here however I want, after all the conversation here is about driving styles, car handling and how it impacts performance.

I simply look at the big picture and see that MS. Is strugling big time against rosberg and it is his job to correct this. His failure to do so reflects on him as his ability to adapt to a new car or to push the team towards a common goal without impacting performance.

#1330 Massa_f1

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 19:11

Moss's comments make me laugh what does he know about winning a championship hmmm not alot. He himeself is one of the most over rated drivers in history anyway. If Rosberg had been in the Ferrari in 06 he would of been beated by MS with ease.

#1331 Fortymark

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 19:26

If Rosberg had been in the Ferrari in 06 he would of been beated by MS with ease.

Because of:
A) The team was focused on Schumacher
B) The car was tailor made for Schumacher
C) Because Schumacher is better than Rosberg?

If your answer is C, then wouldn´t he beat Rosberg even now?

#1332 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 19:28

Sir Stirling is talking funny about 7wdc's when he's managed to get 0 himself

#1333 as65p

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 19:37

Sir Stirling is talking funny about 7wdc's when he's managed to get 0 himself


Isn't that what we do here all day?

#1334 George Costanza

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 19:38

Moss's comments make me laugh what does he know about winning a championship hmmm not alot. He himeself is one of the most over rated drivers in history anyway. If Rosberg had been in the Ferrari in 06 he would of been beated by MS with ease.


Do not compare the Schumacher of 2006 with the 2010 version of Schumacher.

2006 was like vintage Schu compared to 2010, but in reality, that's not true. Vintage Schumacher is 1998-2000, when the car wasn't as fast as McLaren.

People need to lower their standards of Schu. I have no doubt Schu will show some old brilliance in one form, but to mantain it like he did in 2000 is too tough.

#1335 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 20:31

Isn't that what we do here all day?

well 2 points
1- that doesn't make his opion better than Frans's for instance...
2- he did get a chance to win the wdc, most of us don't

:)

#1336 MatsNorway

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 21:06

I have no doubt Schu will show some old brilliance in one form, but to mantain it like he did in 2000 is too tough.



He already has, when he showed us how to protect a position in the rain at china. And it will be more to come.

But yea lower the expectations people.

#1337 fetel

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 21:26

Will Gray:Can Schumi find the answer?

http://uk.eurosport....y/article/2687/



#1338 black magic

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 21:46

hard to understand why we judge a 25 yr old schumacher with a 41 yr old version who has been out of the sport for 3 yrs. anyone have an example of someone so long out coming back and destroying all around? not sure that lauda destroyed the opposition on his return albeit he was mopre competitive if I recall. any other examples? mansell certainly was slower than hill even though he had the arguably best car in the field and was out of the sport but briefly.

for once angst I completely concur with your analysis of schumachers problem. I suspect that china reflects an extreme attempt at ountering the understeer with disastrous consequences, exacerbated by the poor longevity of the inters as they are today. I suspect we also underestimate the lack of testing and therefore ability to work through problems. clearly one of the resons michael remained competitive even with inferior ferrari machinery in the 96/97/98 seasons was the enormous testing he did. it was even used as a compliment then that he was that driven that supposedly his friends wondered after his mental safety. and now it is seen by his detractors as an insight into his inability?

sad then that someone like a sterling who was not the same apparantly after his major accident can't relate then to someone in michaels position. should we have dismissed moss's career because the end of his career was far less distinguished after his shunt until he retired?



#1339 Buttoneer

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 21:51

well 2 points
1- that doesn't make his opion better than Frans's for instance...
2- he did get a chance to win the wdc, most of us don't

:)

And he didn't win his because he was too much of a sportsman, not because he was crap.

There's a lot of reactionary nonsense and creative interpretation here about Moss's comments which, if you read them with a reasonable eye are actually reasonable. He's emphatically not saying Schumacher is actually a bit shit and doesn't deserve 7wdc's. He's saying they need to be re-evaluated in light of his current performance against Rosberg.

I don't agree with him; I think he's contradicted himself by then saying that Schumacher doesn't have the competitive compulsion any more, which means of course he's not at the top of his game mentally. So which is it Sir Stirling? Not as good as a first class teammate or not having the eye of the tiger?

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#1340 Mandzipop

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 22:10

I think everything needs to be put into perspective a bit.

Bahrain

1st race back, getting used to racing again. Finished not too far behind Nico so he did fine.

Australia

Damaged car through no fault of his. Ended up having to be used as the guinea pig for Nico to maximise the team points. Had he have not been punted off, he would have been in with a good shot for the podium.

Malaysia

Car died.

China

This is the 1st race I would say that he struggled.

I think he is having issues with the car, which are more profound in mixed conditions. The new package is meant to be more geared to his liking. Remember, he was brought in at last minute. Ross knows how to gear a car towards his liking. He spent enough time doing it. Schumacher knows more about the technical side of the sport than most other drivers because he has been there from the other side of it. If the car has been designed more to his liking, expect a massive performance leap in the next couple of races. What he wants to do with the car, and where he wants to place it are obviously not possible with the car he has. He has a very unusual driving style which only works if the car is able to respond to it.


I posted that on another forum on 25/04/10. Since then other things have emerged with regards to the problems.

I don't want to criticise Sir Stirling Moss, however his time in F1 was very different to today's F1. Michael has a disadvantage over his peers due to the fact that he is a rookie (in a fashion) in the 4th fastest car on the grid. The changes over the 3 years he has been away have been quite big. The cars he last drove in F1 were very different to what he is driving now. He has had poor luck (unlike his teammate). Lets see what happens with the updates for the next race or 2.

#1341 F1Johnny

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 22:13

well 2 points
1- that doesn't make his opion better than Frans's for instance...
2- he did get a chance to win the wdc, most of us don't

:)


I put it to you that your point 2 squashes your point 1.

#1342 aditya-now

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 22:19

what more do u want me to explain???..

rear slides,rear slides,rear slides!!!...do u even know what that term means???...ive explained this before as well,its not like shumacher is doing something that nobody does..amateur kart racers learn to use controlled rear slides for heaven's sake!,specially thru the faster stuff...its a technique a lot of these top guys bring from karting experience.....but why would u know anything about this????

and again i ask u,why readers of this thread have to suffer for the fact that you have never ever stepped into a basic go-kart and dont know jack about the stuff youre bringing up?..

im giving up.on your merry ways


If you´d have the kindness to study the post I made earlier on the same topic: herein lies part of the problem and part of the answer.

Schumacher is the driver who has the distinction of bringing kart driving style into F1.
Oversteering driver through corners, "throwing kart/car around" and all.

Now that the regs do not reward this driving style any more, it will be a long season for the German.
Maybe his friend Jean can do something about it, though...
Well, maybe for 2011 at least.


Being an "amateur kart racer" myself I know very well about these controlled slides.
And F1 is a different category of racing vehicles, as you might have noticed.

Schumacher the serial winner started in 1994, how many wins did he have before? Two, to be exact.

When the regs changed in 1994 to have refuelling and two, three or four stints in a race, Michael became the force we know.
Notice the fact, that the more stints, the better Michael would do. Ross Brawn knew this very well, as you can see from historical GP´s when Ross devised a multiple stint strategy and Michael excelled.

MS is the undoubted master in bringing the hammer down. Stellar speed in short stints.

Like in kart races, he likes to throw his car around and has, consequently, tyre issues in an F1 car that has to go for 1 1/2 hours on the same fuel load. As long as the regs permitted multiple stints on low fuel loads (which refuelling provided) Schumacher could play his strengths. The tyres would be changed within due time, plus the lower average fuel load helped additionally keeping the tyres in better shape.

Now that he has to drive the race with a much higher average heavy fuel load, we see Michael debunked. His driving style, which is the perfect kart style and the perfect style for shorter stints in F1 races, is his undoing. He is still a very good driver, as he was in 1992 and 1993, but not that special that he appeared to be from 1994 - 2006.

He knows it himself.

You can see it in Michael´s body language, in his looks, in his resignation. The magic is gone. It will be the stroke of genius if they can provide a car for Michael that can attenuate the negative effects of his driving style on the tyres and play to his strengths at the same time.

Were it not for the regulations from 1994 - 2009, we would maybe have seen a very different shape of F1, with less WDC´s for Michael (say 2000 and 2003 would have been highly questionable).

Edited by aditya-now, 28 April 2010 - 22:25.


#1343 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 22:22

And he didn't win his because he was too much of a sportsman, not because he was crap.

There's a lot of reactionary nonsense and creative interpretation here about Moss's comments which, if you read them with a reasonable eye are actually reasonable. He's emphatically not saying Schumacher is actually a bit shit and doesn't deserve 7wdc's. He's saying they need to be re-evaluated in light of his current performance against Rosberg.

I don't agree with him; I think he's contradicted himself by then saying that Schumacher doesn't have the competitive compulsion any more, which means of course he's not at the top of his game mentally. So which is it Sir Stirling? Not as good as a first class teammate or not having the eye of the tiger?

I don't say he was crap. he was a great driver.
but is he really entitled to say something about what it takes to succeed in a wdc when he hasn't actually got one? opposed to a guy that has got about 7 of them?
I mean obviously he can say anything he likes but he hasn't managed to win it once (for various reasons)...the other guy has won 7 of them and came back after 3 years out to tackle the young guns.
Come on Sir Stirling, you can do better than this ;)

#1344 Messi10

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 22:39

nonsense..
since when an ex-f1 driver needs to be WDC in order to have a personal opinion about F1 or another driver..

Edited by Messi10, 28 April 2010 - 22:39.


#1345 aditya-now

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 22:44

I don't agree with him; I think he's contradicted himself by then saying that Schumacher doesn't have the competitive compulsion any more, which means of course he's not at the top of his game mentally. So which is it Sir Stirling? Not as good as a first class teammate or not having the eye of the tiger?


While I have my own interpretation of the Schumacher situation (see above) I must say, Buttoneer, that you have not read Sir Stirling´s words carefully.

He clearly said:"He never had a competitive teammate in his 7 WDCs", and then goes on

"What´s more, he does not have the same compulsion anymore".

So Moss sees the prime reason in the fact that Rosberg is the first proper teammate to Michael, what´s more now Michael does not even have the same compulsion. So not having the same compulsion aggravates the problem that Rosberg poses to him. It´s not the age, it´s the spirit, Michael does not want it enough anymore is what SM is saying.
And with that I can certainly agree, was it not exactly for this reason (that he wanted it so badly in his first career) that Schumi did not make only friends? And has not become much nicer and more humble in his second career?

I for one enjoy the human in Schumi much more in his second career, but it is clear that the racer in Schumacher profited from "wanting it so badly".

So, Buttoneer, do Sir Stirling the favor to read his wording attentively. We surely might not agree with it, but Moss´arguing is not inherently flawed.


#1346 Buttoneer

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 22:52

So, Buttoneer, do Sir Stirling the favor to read his wording attentively. We surely might not agree with it, but Moss´arguing is not inherently flawed.

Since you put it so patronisingly, it would be rude of me not to.

Nope, still contradictory.

How does he know Rosberg is top class if Schumacher has lost the competitive drive? I mean, how much is that worth? Which came first, the competitive teammate or the lack of drive?

#1347 Muz Bee

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 23:05

And he didn't win his because he was too much of a sportsman, not because he was crap.

There's a lot of reactionary nonsense and creative interpretation here about Moss's comments which, if you read them with a reasonable eye are actually reasonable. He's emphatically not saying Schumacher is actually a bit shit and doesn't deserve 7wdc's. He's saying they need to be re-evaluated in light of his current performance against Rosberg.

I don't agree with him; I think he's contradicted himself by then saying that Schumacher doesn't have the competitive compulsion any more, which means of course he's not at the top of his game mentally. So which is it Sir Stirling? Not as good as a first class teammate or not having the eye of the tiger?

:up: Seems like a lot of people want to shoot Moss down in flames because either;
he is old,
he fell down a lift shaft
he didn't win any let alone 7 WDCs
but probably most telling - because he dares to criticise Schumacher and attempt to explain his lack of sparkle at the moment.

I too don't alway agree with Sir Stirling and don't agree with everything he says in this instance but people who have never raced at a level some way above club racing fails to understand a number of things and particularly this;

When the absolute peak of motivational edge is lost the person who has lost it is usually not even aware of it because it is such a fine thing. The "need" for winning is far more potent than the desire for winning - it separates the winners from their competitors. Michael is I'm sure motivated to win but is the desire burning as fiercely as in 1999 when he was still trying to drag Ferrari to glory? I doubt it AND I doubt that he was even then the equal of a couple of guys who preceded him in the decades prior. I always regarded him as a winning machine with the best gear bag of attributes (in the wider sense) for winning. That is why he won seven and Stewart gave it away at his peak with (only!) three.

Time and other thieves have probably caught up with him but it may be premature to say he won't spring a surprise or two.

#1348 SeanValen

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 23:39

It's too long a gap until Spain to wait for a new Schumacher practice session, something none of us really thought could happen again last year.

Doing, great, doing bad, doing whatever, being retired or not, last decade and this decade in the forums was about him, I've never seen so many contrasting opinions by people who believe in what their saying, it's always going to be crazy in a MS topic, so many critics have come and gone, fans come and gone, I've seen the best unti Schumacher fans provide the best sort of arguements, proper hard core thought out posts to debunk alot of what MS has achiieved, I actually miss some of those old posters, they were very good and entertaining in good light, we still have some entertainment with alot of us here, but in terms of finding true hard core professional unti MS fans, I think they retired quitely along with MS, and I've actually seen some post here and actually understand the problem's MS is having and admire his courage for putting his reputation on the line for a sport which makes up most of his life, yeah the old Schumacher critics actually I used to know quietly let me know they are fans of him now, and they appreciated him more after he retired, but you always have a new breed of fans each year and era who just pale in comparison to the debates I've seen on here for almost 10 years, a long time.

I actually didn't know how much I enjoyed testing when there was no ban, it was a good sort of activity to see the teams and drivers trying parts and still have some belief that in the tests, we may see indications for what is to come, that was the interesting part of testing, now all the teams do improvements behind the scenes and it may or may not work on the track, and it's made some of us perhaps too confident we understand what's really going on Race weekends have become a bizarre mix of unnofficial testing and race, I think for forums, and not just for Schumacher, it's still a new system to get used too, it's amazing just how much the sport has changed, perhaps a little too much really this decade so far. Just when you get used to something, it's change again.


When the absolute peak of motivational edge is lost the person who has lost it is usually not even aware of it because it is such a fine thing. The "need" for winning is far more potent than the desire for winning - it separates the winners from their competitors. Michael is I'm sure motivated to win but is the desire burning as fiercely as in 1999 when he was still trying to drag Ferrari to glory? I doubt it AND I doubt that he was even then the equal of a couple of guys who preceded him in the decades prior. I always regarded him as a winning machine with the best gear bag of attributes (in the wider sense) for winning. That is why he won seven and Stewart gave it away at his peak with (only!) three.

Time and other thieves have probably caught up with him but it may be premature to say he won't spring a surprise or two.



I think alot of other people I would doubt, but how can you doubt a man who's really done it all, and how can you doubt someone who's given up time from his family, money??, he's got loads, Schumacher has a incrediable amount of superstar status, but you never saw him hog the limelight, or on a David Letterman show, with ferrari he had ambition, mission complete, win with ferrari, create ferrari dynasty....mission complete. Mercedes....now there is a team he would of raced with previously, and may have done with Mclaren Mercedes had Ron Dennis not been there, and has admitted so, it's like he said, he's coming full circle, Mercedes coming back at a time when he himself jumped for Massa's seat, not worrying about his reputation or legendary status, gets prepared and misses out due to neck injury, even if he did or didn't do well, I think it's stupid to doubt this man's desire to win given how great he has had it since he retired, anyone who has races like Monza, China and Brazil 2006 at their last races would be happy I think, he won Monza and retired on ferrari soil, even Massa said, what better can you expect, fighting for the title in your last season, especially after 2005 when guys like Moss writ him off like they are doing now, it's seem the real Schumacher, the one who works hard, the one who worked hard previously before Spa 1998 and in brazil 2006 and showed that through his driving, when Michael dedicated himself, when he could work with the car in testing, he was on fire, so now he has to do double the work of preparation in less time on weekends, and suddenly Michael is no more, boo hoo, I think many here lost the plot on who this guy really is in terms of work ethic and determination, whether or not he achieves his goal with a title for mercedes, I think it's incrediabley difficult to doubt his determination to win. Nobody fought he would leave Ferrari and join another team, not even me at some points but many people got proven wrong, Schumacher has a habit of proving people wrong, and some people still don't know him now it seems or are too proud to admit the truth about him for whatever silly motivations they have for posting garbage which then gets copied and pasted through threads for another 10 years on these forums.

What Schumacher is doing, is trying to pull off maybe in the next race, or following races or next year, to be a main player in races and championships, with current young guns, it's what many were wanting after he retired, so I think it's natural 50% here would kick him when's he's trying, and 50% would be patient to see out his effort to get back in the game, that's pretty much what you would expect from a f1 icon and superstar for the likes in which we may never see again, Senna is dead, I miss him to this day, people still talk about him, if he was alive, maybe we'll be kicking him down as well for attempting a comeback and having some poor races as well, but with Schumi, he's alive, but the thing is, he is his own worst critic, he knows if he can't get the job done, he'll walk, so as long as he's trying, the worst thing you could or anyone can possibly do is doubt his determination to improve,

If I or anyone else on this board had his money and his career and left f1 they way he did with races like Brazil, Monza and China as cap off races to a career, and had it made with ferrari as ambassodor and star enjoying success, to give that up, he surprised alot of people, hell he made fans out of his detractors in his first career, I know people who didn't like him, and like him now for his courage , I don't think many appreciate his quest for challenge, it's a addiction, Jean Todt used to say, it's a addiction to him, a drug. People forget it's like a drug to him, what you call lack of determination is the furthest thing away from the character of Schumi you could say in regards to winning a f1 race, apart from Senna, Schumacher wants to win badly, it's why he's back, not to sit and make up numbers.

Edited by SeanValen, 29 April 2010 - 00:26.


#1349 black magic

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 23:49

perhaps our perception excluding china race is worse than reality

eg if malysia qualifying is excluded ave grid position sees rosberg in 5th schumacher 8th. hardly a disaster. clealry rosberg is ahead.

if malasia is included and remember the guy who cant cut it any longer managed to get through 1st stage when many others such as mclaren ferrari did not, then rosberg is 3rd ave grid and schumacher 5th( note hamilton is only 10th, with massa and button also behind schumacher.

looking at that would imply whilst he is not happy with his qualifying its hardly a chasm between the 2 and his particulalry poor race pace in china is over emphasing the size of the problem

#1350 black magic

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 23:55

whoops correction, massa immediately in front of schumacher. meaning rosberg 3rd, schumacher 6th on the grid.(ave)

does make this the biggest "gap" amongst the top 4 teams between the drivers, in fairness. schumacher has out qualified hamilton and button twice.

interesting that button is ahead of hamilton whether malaysia is in or out and I doubt any would have picked that.