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#1351 Kenaltgr

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 00:08

Moss's comments make me laugh what does he know about winning a championship hmmm not alot. He himeself is one of the most over rated drivers in history anyway. If Rosberg had been in the Ferrari in 06 he would of been beated by MS with ease.


Moss is not in any way as vastly overrated as Schumacher.

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#1352 angst

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 00:20

If you´d have the kindness to study the post I made earlier on the same topic: herein lies part of the problem and part of the answer.



Being an "amateur kart racer" myself I know very well about these controlled slides.
And F1 is a different category of racing vehicles, as you might have noticed.

Schumacher the serial winner started in 1994, how many wins did he have before? Two, to be exact.

When the regs changed in 1994 to have refuelling and two, three or four stints in a race, Michael became the force we know.
Notice the fact, that the more stints, the better Michael would do. Ross Brawn knew this very well, as you can see from historical GP´s when Ross devised a multiple stint strategy and Michael excelled.

MS is the undoubted master in bringing the hammer down. Stellar speed in short stints.

Like in kart races, he likes to throw his car around and has, consequently, tyre issues in an F1 car that has to go for 1 1/2 hours on the same fuel load. As long as the regs permitted multiple stints on low fuel loads (which refuelling provided) Schumacher could play his strengths. The tyres would be changed within due time, plus the lower average fuel load helped additionally keeping the tyres in better shape.

Now that he has to drive the race with a much higher average heavy fuel load, we see Michael debunked. His driving style, which is the perfect kart style and the perfect style for shorter stints in F1 races, is his undoing. He is still a very good driver, as he was in 1992 and 1993, but not that special that he appeared to be from 1994 - 2006.

He knows it himself.

You can see it in Michael´s body language, in his looks, in his resignation. The magic is gone. It will be the stroke of genius if they can provide a car for Michael that can attenuate the negative effects of his driving style on the tyres and play to his strengths at the same time.

Were it not for the regulations from 1994 - 2009, we would maybe have seen a very different shape of F1, with less WDC´s for Michael (say 2000 and 2003 would have been highly questionable).


Exactly what I was trying to say :up:


#1353 917k

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 00:23

Moss is not in any way as vastly overrated as Schumacher.


vastly overrated 7 wdc :rolleyes: ........this place sucks. :down:


#1354 aditya-now

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 01:37

Since you put it so patronisingly, it would be rude of me not to.

Nope, still contradictory.

How does he know Rosberg is top class if Schumacher has lost the competitive drive? I mean, how much is that worth? Which came first, the competitive teammate or the lack of drive?


Sorry for appearing to be patronising.

The question you pose is of course a very good one: what was before, the hen or the egg? If Michael has lost "the compulsion", how do we know that Rosberg is really that special? How do we know which of the two is true?

In my opinion, the two coincided, which compounds the problem for Michael.
He got the competitive teammate at the same time as he came back to F1 "to have fun"....
....in Michael´s own words.

It will be interesting to see how long Mercedes will share that "fun" with Michael.

Regarding Moss´utterings, the strong teammate comes first and formost (not necessarily in terms of timeline), "what's more" he does not have the same compulsion anymore. So the second compounding the first.

Regardless, I don't fully agree with that either, as I find one of the main reasons for Michael's form in the change of regs, as angst has put it already so clearly before us, and I find that the most relevant and compelling "technical" explanation that anyone has provided in this thread so far.

Edited by aditya-now, 29 April 2010 - 01:56.


#1355 FigJam

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 02:34

Do not compare the Schumacher of 2006 with the 2010 version of Schumacher.

2006 was like vintage Schu compared to 2010, but in reality, that's not true. Vintage Schumacher is 1998-2000, when the car wasn't as fast as McLaren.
People need to lower their standards of Schu. I have no doubt Schu will show some old brilliance in one form, but to mantain it like he did in 2000 is too tough.


Well said... Some common sense. :up:

#1356 merschu

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 05:39

It's too long a gap until Spain to wait for a new Schumacher practice session, something none of us really thought could happen again last year.

Doing, great, doing bad, doing whatever, being retired or not, last decade and this decade in the forums was about him, I've never seen so many contrasting opinions by people who believe in what their saying, it's always going to be crazy in a MS topic, so many critics have come and gone, fans come and gone, I've seen the best unti Schumacher fans provide the best sort of arguements, proper hard core thought out posts to debunk alot of what MS has achiieved, I actually miss some of those old posters, they were very good and entertaining in good light, we still have some entertainment with alot of us here, but in terms of finding true hard core professional unti MS fans, I think they retired quitely along with MS, and I've actually seen some post here and actually understand the problem's MS is having and admire his courage for putting his reputation on the line for a sport which makes up most of his life, yeah the old Schumacher critics actually I used to know quietly let me know they are fans of him now, and they appreciated him more after he retired, but you always have a new breed of fans each year and era who just pale in comparison to the debates I've seen on here for almost 10 years, a long time.

I actually didn't know how much I enjoyed testing when there was no ban, it was a good sort of activity to see the teams and drivers trying parts and still have some belief that in the tests, we may see indications for what is to come, that was the interesting part of testing, now all the teams do improvements behind the scenes and it may or may not work on the track, and it's made some of us perhaps too confident we understand what's really going on Race weekends have become a bizarre mix of unnofficial testing and race, I think for forums, and not just for Schumacher, it's still a new system to get used too, it's amazing just how much the sport has changed, perhaps a little too much really this decade so far. Just when you get used to something, it's change again.





I think alot of other people I would doubt, but how can you doubt a man who's really done it all, and how can you doubt someone who's given up time from his family, money??, he's got loads, Schumacher has a incrediable amount of superstar status, but you never saw him hog the limelight, or on a David Letterman show, with ferrari he had ambition, mission complete, win with ferrari, create ferrari dynasty....mission complete. Mercedes....now there is a team he would of raced with previously, and may have done with Mclaren Mercedes had Ron Dennis not been there, and has admitted so, it's like he said, he's coming full circle, Mercedes coming back at a time when he himself jumped for Massa's seat, not worrying about his reputation or legendary status, gets prepared and misses out due to neck injury, even if he did or didn't do well, I think it's stupid to doubt this man's desire to win given how great he has had it since he retired, anyone who has races like Monza, China and Brazil 2006 at their last races would be happy I think, he won Monza and retired on ferrari soil, even Massa said, what better can you expect, fighting for the title in your last season, especially after 2005 when guys like Moss writ him off like they are doing now, it's seem the real Schumacher, the one who works hard, the one who worked hard previously before Spa 1998 and in brazil 2006 and showed that through his driving, when Michael dedicated himself, when he could work with the car in testing, he was on fire, so now he has to do double the work of preparation in less time on weekends, and suddenly Michael is no more, boo hoo, I think many here lost the plot on who this guy really is in terms of work ethic and determination, whether or not he achieves his goal with a title for mercedes, I think it's incrediabley difficult to doubt his determination to win. Nobody fought he would leave Ferrari and join another team, not even me at some points but many people got proven wrong, Schumacher has a habit of proving people wrong, and some people still don't know him now it seems or are too proud to admit the truth about him for whatever silly motivations they have for posting garbage which then gets copied and pasted through threads for another 10 years on these forums.

What Schumacher is doing, is trying to pull off maybe in the next race, or following races or next year, to be a main player in races and championships, with current young guns, it's what many were wanting after he retired, so I think it's natural 50% here would kick him when's he's trying, and 50% would be patient to see out his effort to get back in the game, that's pretty much what you would expect from a f1 icon and superstar for the likes in which we may never see again, Senna is dead, I miss him to this day, people still talk about him, if he was alive, maybe we'll be kicking him down as well for attempting a comeback and having some poor races as well, but with Schumi, he's alive, but the thing is, he is his own worst critic, he knows if he can't get the job done, he'll walk, so as long as he's trying, the worst thing you could or anyone can possibly do is doubt his determination to improve,

If I or anyone else on this board had his money and his career and left f1 they way he did with races like Brazil, Monza and China as cap off races to a career, and had it made with ferrari as ambassodor and star enjoying success, to give that up, he surprised alot of people, hell he made fans out of his detractors in his first career, I know people who didn't like him, and like him now for his courage , I don't think many appreciate his quest for challenge, it's a addiction, Jean Todt used to say, it's a addiction to him, a drug. People forget it's like a drug to him, what you call lack of determination is the furthest thing away from the character of Schumi you could say in regards to winning a f1 race, apart from Senna, Schumacher wants to win badly, it's why he's back, not to sit and make up numbers.


Great post :up:

Edited by merschu, 29 April 2010 - 05:39.


#1357 Szoelloe

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 06:05

Isn't that what we do here all day?



MOUAHAHAH. :D

so true.

thx :up:

#1358 Owen

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:10

Bit of a provocative cover this week for Autosport magazine;
http://www.autosport.com/digital/

#1359 aditya-now

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:40

Bit of a provocative cover this week for Autosport magazine;
http://www.autosport.com/digital/


1.) Sales
2.) not untrue


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#1360 Rinehart

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 08:52

Bit of a provocative cover this week for Autosport magazine;
http://www.autosport.com/digital/


I didn't realise Autosport was the Sun of motorsport journalism. I think, considering the majority of the motorsport community read Autosport, that is a pretty disrespectful headline. Its also a pretty ignorant one, considering these experts will be aware of the fact that Mercedes are developing a revised car to give MS car better balance. I think we should see the results of that before making a judgement and if he has indeed lost some pace, I think perhaps they would be advised to come up with a headline slightly less trashy than that.

Otherwise, why don't they do with 'Is Webber shit?' next week. :rolleyes:

#1361 FigJam

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:12

Disrespectful headline? I've seen far worse said about certain drivers in various publications over the years. That's nothing new and hardly the worst case.

Non issue...people will buy it because Schu is on the cover. What else were they going to say about him? Schu back to his brilliant best?  ;)

#1362 Buttoneer

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 09:59

Headline...er...schmeadline. What does the substance of the article say? Autosport frequently has headlines drawn from the Daily Mail headline generator but the articles are much more sober in their approach - usually. This might be a badly written story too for all I know, but you can't really judge the content by the headline.

#1363 y2cragie

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:04

To be fair, Autosport are running the same story week after week. I haven't received my copy yet, so haven't seen the author of it, but I can remember several issues recently analysing why Schumi was past it, or why he should retire. I am at the point of cancelling my subscription, simply because I dont want to pay for the same rehashed stuff week after week.

#1364 merschu

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:12

This is what eddstrawF1 the autosport F1 Editor had to say on twitter:

"The cover posts a legitimate question and Tony Dodgins's piece looks into what's really been going on with Schuey and the piece analyses his struggles. Far from judging him, the final lines say that it's too early for a final judgement"



#1365 grunge

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:01

MS is the undoubted master in bringing the hammer down. Stellar speed in short stints.

Like in kart races, he likes to throw his car around and has, consequently, tyre issues in an F1 car that has to go for 1 1/2 hours on the same fuel load. As long as the regs permitted multiple stints on low fuel loads (which refuelling provided) Schumacher could play his strengths. The tyres would be changed within due time, plus the lower average fuel load helped additionally keeping the tyres in better shape.

Now that he has to drive the race with a much higher average heavy fuel load, we see Michael debunked. His driving style, which is the perfect kart style and the perfect style for shorter stints in F1 races, is his undoing. He is still a very good driver, as he was in 1992 and 1993, but not that special that he appeared to be from 1994 - 2006.

He knows it himself.

You can see it in Michael´s body language, in his looks, in his resignation. The magic is gone. It will be the stroke of genius if they can provide a car for Michael that can attenuate the negative effects of his driving style on the tyres and play to his strengths at the same time.

Were it not for the regulations from 1994 - 2009, we would maybe have seen a very different shape of F1, with less WDC´s for Michael (say 2000 and 2003 would have been highly questionable).

that is nothing but pure speculation.nonsense id say.as ive already said countless times,theres no evidence to show his tyre wear over the years was higher than his other oversteer buddies eg hakkinen for example.no two driving styles are alike but u cant point out that schumacher's style produced more wear than hakkinen or vice versa.again for the millionth time u cant simply say his rear slides mean his wears them more then other drivers,there are quite a few guys around that use the same rear slide style,a much more controlled version of their karting slides.

i dont remember schumacher coming in (in the refuelling era) with busted tyres everytime.infact his famous inlaps wouldnt have been possible had he had done that kind of wear to his tyres.

one needs to wait until he has a more neutral package which means he doesnt have to go for extreme load distribution to induce oversteer.if he still has wear problems after that,id be the first one to start ranting

#1366 grunge

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 12:25

Moss's comments make me laugh what does he know about winning a championship hmmm not alot. He himeself is one of the most over rated drivers in history anyway. If Rosberg had been in the Ferrari in 06 he would of been beated by MS with ease.

i genuinely believe youre being funny on purpose.either that or.....

Back to the topic,while i myself dont agree with Moss's opinion,that doesnt make him any less of the legend that he truly was.he has been openly critical of schumacher for years now and his comments now shouldnt surprise anyone really.i think his reasons for detesting MS soo much are pretty solid too..can anyone possibly imagine a Jimmy clark/fangio emulating the antics of an MS/alonso.not even in a fanboy's wildest dreams,can one possibly claim Clark or Moss wouldve even thought about doing a monaco 06 or singapore 08.

Edited by grunge, 29 April 2010 - 12:26.


#1367 angst

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 13:10

that is nothing but pure speculation.nonsense id say.


Whereas, of course, when the pure speculation was all about how Schumacher used tis driving style to better effect than any other driver then it was perfectly reasonable to say it. That has been one of the supporting columns of the argument that Schumacher was the greatest driver ever.... you want it both ways. He utilises the rear-wheel slide more than any other driver, which is what makes him faster than his opponents; you accept that sliding the rear wheels "naturally" results in increased rear tyre wear but...., its pure speculation that a driver who utilises rear wheel sliding to greater levels than other drivers will "naturally" have greater rear tyre wear?

as ive already said countless times,theres no evidence to show his tyre wear over the years was higher than his other oversteer buddies eg hakkinen for example.


Actually, there has been evidence.... which I will search for and find. I remember, through the years, various comments made about how hard he was on his rear tyres...

As for there being "no evidence", even now I can offer some. Prior to 1994 (and the introduction of refuelling) Schumacher had precisely two wins. He was a very able and competitive driver, but in no way the dominant force in F1. Through the refuelling era he became exactly that except, perhaps tellingly, in 2005...., when tyre management became - once again - a factor in F1 races. And now, in 2010 he is struggling to be on the pace of his teammate - and a major factor in his performance is - as has been confirmed by both he and his team - tyre degradation.

no two driving styles are alike but u cant point out that schumacher's style produced more wear than hakkinen or vice versa.again for the millionth time u cant simply say his rear slides mean his wears them more then other drivers,there are quite a few guys around that use the same rear slide style,a much more controlled version of their karting slides.


As above, this seems to be wanting it both ways. He was renowned for utilising this method to a much greater degree than other drivers; it is understood that this particular style (to him) is what differentiated him from his opponents. It is perfectly reasonable to ask whether this driving style might have been perfectly suited to the refuelling era (for all the reasons that additya-now has eloquently described, and perhaps less suited to an era when tyre management becomes more of a factor.

Another interesting part of the equation, which he certainly utilised to better effect than other drivers, is the electronic diff.... no longer in use. I wonder if that, also, isn't affecting his ability to get the best from the car.

i dont remember schumacher coming in (in the refuelling era) with busted tyres everytime.infact his famous inlaps wouldnt have been possible had he had done that kind of wear to his tyres.


Why would he, generally? The tyres were designed to offer maximum grip for a limited period of time with a pretty consistent weight distribution. As has been pointed out, the more stops the better Schumacher became - something Ross Brawn knew well... Did anybody have tyre wear problems during the refuelling era?

one needs to wait until he has a more neutral package which means he doesnt have to go for extreme load distribution to induce oversteer.if he still has wear problems after that,id be the first one to start ranting


I shall hold you to that.....

Edited by angst, 29 April 2010 - 13:13.


#1368 iakhtar

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 13:11

on the flip side, i don't see MS making below the belt comments about other drivers, it's just unprofessional and comes off abit bitter to me

#1369 Trust

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 13:25

so Montoya had (s) amazing car control and preferred an oversteering car however he failed to match kimi in the same car and struggled to adapt with the balance of the mclaren as it was mostly suited to kimi's driving style. What else is new?

It wasn't mostly suited to Kimi's driving style.But, Kimi made that happen with his setup. :wave:


#1370 grunge

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 13:28

. He utilises the rear-wheel slide more than any other driver, which is what makes him faster than his opponents; you accept that sliding the rear wheels "naturally" results in increased rear tyre wear but...., its pure speculation that a driver who utilises rear wheel sliding to greater levels than other drivers will "naturally" have greater rear tyre wear?

again there is no evidence/data to show this.we do not know whether he carried the slide to further extremes than his counter parts.the rear slide was not the only thing giving him his ''famous'' midcorner speeds.it was also his very unique throttle technique.

for all we know he might be carrying those slides to farther extents than than hakkinen/raikkonen etc ..or he may not be.theres no definitive way to tell..you cant base your theory on an assumption that has no valid proof/base.

Another interesting part of the equation, which he certainly utilised to better effect than other drivers, is the electronic diff.... no longer in use. I wonder if that, also, isn't affecting his ability to get the best from the car.

that is a whole different argument.again we dont have the necessary telemetry/other sensitive data to know whether the ban on TC may be affecting his car control.

Actually, there has been evidence.... which I will search for and find. I remember, through the years, various comments made about how hard he was on his rear tyres...

i will certainly look forward to seeing that.

I shall hold you to that.....


and i wouldnt have any qualms in accepting that.ive mentioned this b4 as well im not even an MS fan.heck i dont even like the guy.

Edited by grunge, 29 April 2010 - 13:29.


#1371 Dragonfly

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 14:51

on the flip side, i don't see MS making below the belt comments about other drivers, it's just unprofessional and comes off abit bitter to me

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#1372 Craven Morehead

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 16:52

i genuinely believe youre being funny on purpose.either that or.....

Back to the topic,while i myself dont agree with Moss's opinion,that doesnt make him any less of the legend that he truly was.he has been openly critical of schumacher for years now and his comments now shouldnt surprise anyone really.i think his reasons for detesting MS soo much are pretty solid too..can anyone possibly imagine a Jimmy clark/fangio emulating the antics of an MS/alonso.not even in a fanboy's wildest dreams,can one possibly claim Clark or Moss wouldve even thought about doing a monaco 06 or singapore 08.


Moss shmoss, totally over rated. never won the title: Beaten by a somewhat overweight guy in his forties year in & year out.






 ;)

#1373 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 19:48

Scarbsf1's Blog

Mercedes MGP W01 – Spanish update predictions


Even from the cars early days in testing, Mercedes have had problems with the MGP W01 and Ross Brawn himself has been candid with the cars problems. Fundamentally the car has the wrong weight\aero bias, with it being too far to the front. Last year one of Brawns strengths was its extreme forward weight bias, typified by the large slab of ballast in the front splitter, when the wider front slicks rewarded a +49% bias towards the front. This year the tyres changed, the front tyres being 25mm narrower with a 20mm narrower tread, the rear tyres were also stiffened to cope with the heavy fuel loads. Most teams perceived the loss of grip from the rear tyre change would not offset to loss in front end grip from the narrower front tyre. Perhaps Mercedes (nee Brawn) felt the tyres would still favour a high percentage of weight towards the front, indeed the car still sports a significant slab of ballast in the front splitter. At the last race the cars inherent weaknesses were exhibited by Michael Schumacher, who had both understeer and a chronic lack of rear grip, leading to poor traction in the wet and overwork rear tyres in the dry. In Schumacher’s case his driving style tends to favour oversteer, while Rosberg is able to better cope with lack of turn-in and understeer the Bridgestone’s provide. This trait of the Bridgestone front tyres has been present since the shift to a single tyre supply, which has only worsened with the move to slicks and now narrower slicks.

http://scarbsf1.word...te-predictions/



#1374 Sakae

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 20:58

I can't wait how Michael will assess the changes on the track. My expectations are that he will quietly go about his business of car setup for Saturday, and let results speak on his behalf. He might say more after the weekend.




________

If the changes won't help, than I think this season is probably write off for him and MGP alike in terms of WCC.

#1375 as65p

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 21:08

on the flip side, i don't see MS making below the belt comments about other drivers, it's just unprofessional and comes off abit bitter to me


Hey, you just gave away that you weren't around at the beginning of his career when a certain Damon Hill was MS' main rival. It wasn't pretty back then...

#1376 libano

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 21:24

Hey, you just gave away that you weren't around at the beginning of his career when a certain Damon Hill was MS' main rival. It wasn't pretty back then...


quotes please.


#1377 Buttoneer

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 22:16

quotes please.

What quotes are you looking for exactly? Hill v Schumacher was a media disaster zone. You were either there, or you were not. The only positive aspect was that the Interwebs was in its infancy, so no 20,000 post thread.

#1378 aditya-now

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 22:34

What quotes are you looking for exactly? Hill v Schumacher was a media disaster zone. You were either there, or you were not. The only positive aspect was that the Interwebs was in its infancy, so no 20,000 post thread.


:up:

Excellent post, Buttoneer.

I would like to make a general statement regarding this "Quotes, please" practice, not concerning this particular case.

It is one of the things I find extremely self-serving and arrogant, "Quotes, please"

Being to lazy to look them up for themselves, and at the same time putting the original poster into the position where he has to prove what he says by providing links and quotes for each and everything. Otherwise their whole statement looks unreliable and possibly even invented or at least unfounded. :down:


:rotfl: at the thought of a Schumacher vs Hill thread circa late 1994, mid 1995..... Hilarious!
Lucky for you mods! :lol:






#1379 Muz Bee

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 22:51

As has been pointed out, the more stops the better Schumacher became - something Ross Brawn knew well... Did anybody have tyre wear problems during the refuelling era?

:up: I hadn't put the two together - excellent theory, well supported. I remember the extra pitstop sensation well - a Brawn/Schumacher masterclass.



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#1380 sephiroth

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 23:32

i genuinely believe youre being funny on purpose.either that or.....

Back to the topic,while i myself dont agree with Moss's opinion,that doesnt make him any less of the legend that he truly was.he has been openly critical of schumacher for years now and his comments now shouldnt surprise anyone really.i think his reasons for detesting MS soo much are pretty solid too..can anyone possibly imagine a Jimmy clark/fangio emulating the antics of an MS/alonso.not even in a fanboy's wildest dreams,can one possibly claim Clark or Moss wouldve even thought about doing a monaco 06 or singapore 08.



Shocking that a british ex-driver is anti-schumacher. I guess wonders will never end!

#1381 baddog

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 00:02

It is one of the things I find extremely self-serving and arrogant, "Quotes, please"

Being to lazy to look them up for themselves, and at the same time putting the original poster into the position where he has to prove what he says by providing links and quotes for each and everything. Otherwise their whole statement looks unreliable and possibly even invented or at least unfounded. :down:


:rotfl: at the thought of a Schumacher vs Hill thread circa late 1994, mid 1995..... Hilarious!


Rubbish, if you make a claim you do have an obligation to back it up with at least some examples or expect people to treat it as nonsense. If its so obvious the examples will be trivially easy to find. noone expects you to quote chapter and verse but you should be able to come up with something without even looking it up or you would not be so sure about it.

I for instance can immediately think of one actual incident of Michael Schumacher being actually rude about Damon. The 'fly' joke he made to a press guy. I cant think off the top of my head of any incidents at the time of Damon being openly rude about Michael.

Oh and the internet was well underway at the time. Lots of us had much fun debating things with friends while mostly remaining civil. Yeah right!

#1382 Messi10

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 01:07

Scarbsf1's Blog

Mercedes MGP W01 – Spanish update predictions


Even from the cars early days in testing, Mercedes have had problems with the MGP W01 and Ross Brawn himself has been candid with the cars problems. Fundamentally the car has the wrong weight\aero bias, with it being too far to the front. Last year one of Brawns strengths was its extreme forward weight bias, typified by the large slab of ballast in the front splitter, when the wider front slicks rewarded a +49% bias towards the front. This year the tyres changed, the front tyres being 25mm narrower with a 20mm narrower tread, the rear tyres were also stiffened to cope with the heavy fuel loads. Most teams perceived the loss of grip from the rear tyre change would not offset to loss in front end grip from the narrower front tyre. Perhaps Mercedes (nee Brawn) felt the tyres would still favour a high percentage of weight towards the front, indeed the car still sports a significant slab of ballast in the front splitter. At the last race the cars inherent weaknesses were exhibited by Michael Schumacher, who had both understeer and a chronic lack of rear grip, leading to poor traction in the wet and overwork rear tyres in the dry. In Schumacher’s case his driving style tends to favour oversteer, while Rosberg is able to better cope with lack of turn-in and understeer the Bridgestone’s provide. This trait of the Bridgestone front tyres has been present since the shift to a single tyre supply, which has only worsened with the move to slicks and now narrower slicks.

http://scarbsf1.word...te-predictions/


this is all good but the thing is that the same car has Rosberg 2nd in the WDC standings with 50 points.

Edited by Messi10, 30 April 2010 - 01:07.


#1383 iakhtar

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 01:25

Hey, you just gave away that you weren't around at the beginning of his career when a certain Damon Hill was MS' main rival. It wasn't pretty back then...


you're right, i did start watching in 95 and sure there was alot of animosity and hostility between the rivals, that kinda stuff can really add some flavour to a season and is quite understandable when there is an intense rivalry.

kicking a man while he's already down however is distasteful and then belittling his achievements shows a nasty agenda, sir SM is supposed to be a gentleman

#1384 Sakae

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 01:36

This was supposed to be a thread about Michael Schumacher

Yes, that was my intent.

#1385 merschu

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:02

Today Michael Schumacher was presented with the Chevalier of the French Legion of Honour prize by French Prime Minister Francois Fillon :clap:

Posted Image
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Ross Brawn was also there, see in the background
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Jean Todt
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Knight of the Legion of Honour
Michael, being presented by French Prime Minister, the highest French award

"Yesterday evening were Corinne and I in Paris, because I was made a Knight of the French Legion of Honour. I am of course very honored to receive this award, and it makes me proud. The ceremony was very moving and solemn, and then we were with some friends still in Paris on the move. "

http://translate.goo...y...=auto&tl=en



Article:http://translate.goo...y...=auto&tl=en

Edited by merschu, 30 April 2010 - 08:52.


#1386 CSquared

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:22

Something recently reminded me of Gerhard Berger's comments about Schumacher's car having "everything on the nose" and today, behold, I read it in the current MotorSport. From Nigel Roebuck's column:

When Michael left Benetton for Ferrari at the end of 1995, Gerhard Berger and Jean Alesi ... found the car they inherited from him virtually undriveable.
Berger: "Everything was geared to suit Michael's way of driving, you see - and a car set up for him was exactly the opposite of what I liked: everything was on the nose - no rear end at all - and for most people it's undriveable like that."


He goes on to say he could see during 1996 how the Ferrari was soon behaving the same way, that MS "was developing the car in that direction."


#1387 anachronox

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 07:43

this is all good but the thing is that the same car has Rosberg 2nd in the WDC standings with 50 points.


Even Massa was leading the standings going to China. Did he really excel on the track for that result?

#1388 angst

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:06

Something recently reminded me of Gerhard Berger's comments about Schumacher's car having "everything on the nose" and today, behold, I read it in the current MotorSport. From Nigel Roebuck's column:



He goes on to say he could see during 1996 how the Ferrari was soon behaving the same way, that MS "was developing the car in that direction."


Thankyou for that, what I've been trying to say - and what many Schumacher fans have spent years extolling as Schumacher's brilliance... that he uses oversteer/rear sliding to a far greater degree than other drivers. And this was perfectly suited to a formula that minimised the need for tyre management through a race - ie the refuelling era....


#1389 aditya-now

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:27

Something recently reminded me of Gerhard Berger's comments about Schumacher's car having "everything on the nose" and today, behold, I read it in the current MotorSport. From Nigel Roebuck's column:

QUOTE
When Michael left Benetton for Ferrari at the end of 1995, Gerhard Berger and Jean Alesi ... found the car they inherited from him virtually undriveable.
Berger: "Everything was geared to suit Michael's way of driving, you see - and a car set up for him was exactly the opposite of what I liked: everything was on the nose - no rear end at all - and for most people it's undriveable like that."

He goes on to say he could see during 1996 how the Ferrari was soon behaving the same way, that MS "was developing the car in that direction."


Exactly the point that angst and myself were making for some time now, thanks for digging that out, CSquared.


#1390 cheapracer

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:04

I would like to make a general statement regarding this "Quotes, please" practice, not concerning this particular case.

It is one of the things I find extremely self-serving and arrogant, "Quotes, please"


I'm the opposite, if you ever see anything I write that you don't believe you are welcome to ask for me to back it up as I will for others.

I certainly hope your not infering that you can post whatever you want and don't need to prove it? Oh hang on.....




#1391 Augurk

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:14

you're right, i did start watching in 95 and sure there was alot of animosity and hostility between the rivals, that kinda stuff can really add some flavour to a season and is quite understandable when there is an intense rivalry.

kicking a man while he's already down however is distasteful and then belittling his achievements shows a nasty agenda, sir SM is supposed to be a gentleman

I started watching in 96, hence I missed out on the years before. But yes, I knew things were rough the years before, they were psychological fights. All part of the game and that made it all even more interesting.

However I have never been able to find Schumacher talking in any disrespectful manner about a driver he hasn't actually raced himself against. He is always very respectful when talking about the old greats. He himself is the one who keeps saying Fangio was way better than him, for instance.

#1392 cheapracer

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:17

Thankyou for that, what I've been trying to say - and what many Schumacher fans have spent years extolling as Schumacher's brilliance... that he uses oversteer/rear sliding to a far greater degree than other drivers. And this was perfectly suited to a formula that minimised the need for tyre management through a race - ie the refuelling era....


... and so for Wayne Gardner in Moto GP, no one else could ride his bike (and you couldn't shut Mick Doohan up for years complaining about it).

All this proves is whats happening now, drivers have individual styles, cars have changed over 3 years and MS is in a car that wasn't drawn from any of his own foundations so he needs to adapt and thats happening now. It could well be that the chassis this year won't be able to be adapted to his style similar to as it took time to adapt the Honda bike chassis to Doohan's style - and look what happened there. Don't forget that chassis are frozen and a redesign is out of the question.

I still fail to miss any valid point other than people digging their heels in while they can.

#1393 aditya-now

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:19

I'm the opposite, if you ever see anything I write that you don't believe you are welcome to ask for me to back it up as I will for others.

I certainly hope your not infering that you can post whatever you want and don't need to prove it? Oh hang on.....



Quotes, please?

;)

No, didn´t say that. As you can see from my own posts, I try to provide links when possible, otherwise try to explain the context, like I did with regards to MS´ kart like driving style.
But the "quotes, please" thing can get ridiculous at times... it can be used as a strategy as well.

What made the French give the Knight of the Legion of Honour to Michael Schumacher, anyways?
Does Alain Prost have that distinction?

It is funny, as in Germany I cannot imagine MS getting such an honour from officials of the state...

So far England was the only country that gave "Sirs" and "MBOs" to (Ex) racing drivers, and it is funny that France gives an honour to a German.
Did Jean Todt have a hand in that?

Edited by aditya-now, 30 April 2010 - 09:25.


#1394 Frans

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:48

on the flip side, i don't see MS making below the belt comments about other drivers, it's just unprofessional and comes off abit bitter to me


:rolleyes: hmmm, ... I recall Schumi mouthing off Alonso openly in the media area about his supposed blocking in qualifying, ... pretty unprofessional, the way he did that, luckily Alonso told him that there of course. :up:

#1395 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 09:55

This was supposed to be a thread about Michael Schumacher

May I suggest you direct your attention to this thread and make a positive contribution to how we deal with such threads going forwards.

That goes for anyone who has anything (positive or negative) to say about threads like this which have such an open remit.

Please do not comment or discuss the matter in here or the post will be deleted.

#1396 iakhtar

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 10:42

:rolleyes: hmmm, ... I recall Schumi mouthing off Alonso openly in the media area about his supposed blocking in qualifying, ... pretty unprofessional, the way he did that, luckily Alonso told him that there of course. :up:



“Basically on my last try I was slowed down by him,” said Schumacher. “I asked him whether the team told him, and he said no."

That really is quite the mouthing off and oh so unprofessional indeed, i mean it doesn't get much worse than that!

#1397 Fortymark

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:37

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
03:10 into it.
Hill talks about the comments made by Schumacher on him.

Edited by Fortymark, 30 April 2010 - 12:39.


#1398 aditya-now

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 14:56

... and so for Wayne Gardner in Moto GP, no one else could ride his bike (and you couldn't shut Mick Doohan up for years complaining about it).

All this proves is whats happening now, drivers have individual styles, cars have changed over 3 years and MS is in a car that wasn't drawn from any of his own foundations so he needs to adapt and thats happening now. It could well be that the chassis this year won't be able to be adapted to his style similar to as it took time to adapt the Honda bike chassis to Doohan's style - and look what happened there. Don't forget that chassis are frozen and a redesign is out of the question.

I still fail to miss any valid point other than people digging their heels in while they can.


 ;)

Nice try!

People digging their heels while they can. :lol:

That you fail to miss any valid point does not necessarily mean that there isn´t one. If there is one, you may simply not want to see it, for reasons of your own...

1.) It will be interesting to see if Brawn can provide a chassis that suits Michael´s driving characteristics under present regs, although that might turn out to be trying to square the circle...Let´s hope I´m wrong.

2.) Then there is the time factor. As you point out, it may happen that they will not manage to get the chassis suitable for Michael´s driving style within 2010.
If Michael manages to get to a level of driving from Barcelona or a little later onwards, a level where he was say in Australia before the starting incident with Alonso, then all will be fine and we might see Michael becoming the serial winner again as whom we have come to know him over all those years. The latest in 2011 he should be again such a winner.

If he continues with further abysmal showings like in China, then time might be running short for Michael, though.
Neither Mercedes GP nor he himself would be able to endure a year of further races like China...

Imagine the media storm - in Germany and in some other parts the media started to get into position for shooting sharp in the aftermath of China. If that would continue, neither Mercedes nor Michael would want to undergo the ongoing and increasing negative publicity. On the other hand, would Michael throw it into the weeds, the outcry and shame would be similarly massive, so really Michael and Mercedes are in a bit of a fix here if they would not be able to get it better soon. The stakes are high.

My personal opinion, which I stated at the beginning of this year: Michael will do somewhat respectably and win one race, and everybody will be happy. I am sure he will recover. The negative option described above no one wants to see happening, as it is a very painful option. That would include lots of discussions here on the BB, mods having a real hard time, with some people staying away from particular threads after a while, as the arguing would become too bitter and poisonous.

3.) What regards the statements that James Allen made in his 2007 biography of Michael Schumacher, that Michael Schumacher is the driver who "can drive around" problems in a car, to formulate it mildly - this myth has been debunked heftily. It is interesting to see that those who are apologetic of Michael Schumacher now mention that the car is not suiting Michael´s driving style, while in earlier times the argument was that Michael can drive around anything, that he is the driver of drivers, the numero uno, if there ever was one.

So the analysis shows, that indeed a certain set-up can hurt Michael and his results on track badly. Consequently, a certain set up and set of rules can and has obviously benefited Michael and his results on track.
Which relativates to a certain degree the achievements of MS from 1994 - 2004 and then, for one more year in 2006.
Note that I say "to a certain degree". To bring the hammer down so effectively and dominantly like Michael did is something we might never see again in the whole history of the sport. Congrats to him for that.
Still, would it have been for another set of rules, like in 1991-1993, 2005 and 2010, the "era Schumi" would have looked slightly different...

In 1992, 1993 and 2005 Michael was the very good driver that he really is, taking one win in each year. Exactly the one win that I believe he will also make this year, if and when everything fits perfectly.
Yet the dominant force that MS was from 1994 - 2004, the era Schumi, was obviously benefited by a very specific set of regs, and maybe Michael´s friends in very high places can help him bring back such regs for 2011.... it will be interesting to see if that happens, and what happens then.

So to recap,

1.) MS is and has always been a very good driver who has been
2.) helped massively by a great team behind him (Todt, Brawn, Byrne) and
3.) a set of regs in place from 1994 - 2004 that suited perfectly Michael´s kart style, sprint race oriented driving style, that is highly abrasive on the rear tyres.

You may not see the point, and you may not want to see the point. I see the point, and I want to see the point.
So let´s reconcile this matter with agreeing to disagree.

:)




#1399 grunge

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 17:38

Something recently reminded me of Gerhard Berger's comments about Schumacher's car having "everything on the nose" and today, behold, I read it in the current MotorSport. From Nigel Roebuck's column:



He goes on to say he could see during 1996 how the Ferrari was soon behaving the same way, that MS "was developing the car in that direction."

that is really nothing new.driving preferences are like handwriting styles.and no two are alike.schumacher's style is perhaps more towards one extreme(and there are actually people around that like more oversteer than him.ferrari race engineers in 07 were quoted as saying that they were stunned to see kimi preferred a lot more oversteer than even MS) which really isnt necessarily a bad thing..the greats of f1 have always been known to control twitchy cars.berger didnt like driving MS's setups which is no surprise.the oversteery car takes a lot more skill to conquer and is the quickest way around a track if a driver can live with it..MS similarly wouldnt feel comfortable with berger's setups.

no driver can drive around every setup.such entities only exist in fanboy fantasies.many MS fans wouleve had that reality check this year..

Edited by grunge, 30 April 2010 - 17:48.


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#1400 Simon Says

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 17:42

Thankyou for that, what I've been trying to say - and what many Schumacher fans have spent years extolling as Schumacher's brilliance... that he uses oversteer/rear sliding to a far greater degree than other drivers. And this was perfectly suited to a formula that minimised the need for tyre management through a race - ie the refuelling era....


I think it's more he uses his #1 status in the team to let Rory Byrne and Ross Brawn build the car for him. That's exactly what Berger and Alesi found out when they went to Benetton.

Rosberg is going to be in trouble if the same will happen at Mercedes GP, driving a car that doesnt really suit him.