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#14301 Jomyboy

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:01

If you watched Massa's onboard he was hitting the rev limiter on the pit straight. Something's funny about the way Schumi is setting up the car. I mean if other cars are hitting the rev limiter and are no where close to pass you then you are running some serious high revs. Which makes me ponder, I know Suzuka is a fast circuit but it would be hurting him a lot more in terms of lap time if he goes for such high revs. I guess he can drive faster if he gets his gearing down.

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#14302 sharo

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:02

......
as if it were a podium from days of old. :lol:

Same here :)

#14303 salamin

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:05

If you watched Massa's onboard he was hitting the rev limiter on the pit straight. Something's funny about the way Schumi is setting up the car. I mean if other cars are hitting the rev limiter and are no where close to pass you then you are running some serious high revs. Which makes me ponder, I know Suzuka is a fast circuit but it would be hurting him a lot more in terms of lap time if he goes for such high revs. I guess he can drive faster if he gets his gearing down.


well his S1 times were kinda shitty (with the esses requiring lot of DF) - but it seems to have worked out :up:

#14304 GoRacing

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:08

well his S1 times were kinda shitty (with the esses requiring lot of DF) - but it seems to have worked out :up:


I guess he could have gone faster in S1, but he was lifting so much to preserve tyres, but as you say, it worked!

#14305 Jomyboy

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:14

If only someone could figure out if he is running less wing or higher revs or maybe a combo of both. If you are gonna take it easy through the Ss to protect your tyres then i guess you don't want that much wing anyway. Does having more wing protect your tyres???

#14306 arknor

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:21

If only someone could figure out if he is running less wing or higher revs or maybe a combo of both. If you are gonna take it easy through the Ss to protect your tyres then i guess you don't want that much wing anyway. Does having more wing protect your tyres???

on the odd onboard in the S's he was almost lifting off completely, i think he just didnt ant to kil his tyres, he had the fastest last sector time off the race though by a couple of tenths i think it was :up:

so even if he was losing time he would more than likely have been making it up

#14307 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:22

If only someone could figure out if he is running less wing or higher revs or maybe a combo of both. If you are gonna take it easy through the Ss to protect your tyres then i guess you don't want that much wing anyway. Does having more wing protect your tyres???

you can't run higher revs since you're rev-capped.
I think he runs a bit less rear downforce and a bit longer gearing for 7th

#14308 Jomyboy

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:30

you can't run higher revs since you're rev-capped.
I think he runs a bit less rear downforce and a bit longer gearing for 7th



oops, thanks for correcting me on that one. Longer Gear Ratios!!!!

But can anyone answer me on this please, if you are intending to take it easy with the tyre and not go flat out through corners why would anybody want to run more wing???

#14309 salamin

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:34

oops, thanks for correcting me on that one. Longer Gear Ratios!!!!

But can anyone answer me on this please, if you are intending to take it easy with the tyre and not go flat out through corners why would anybody want to run more wing???


I'd guess:
more wing > more DF/grip > more speed through corners w/o sliding too much which destroys tyres

#14310 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 14:57

actually more wing means less sliding at the same speed -> less tyre wear

#14311 arknor

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 15:07

actually more wing means less sliding at the same speed -> less tyre wear

more grip = more heat in the tyres to though, i think pretty much every team had a problem with tyres overheating in suzuka and schumacher found a solution to this problem

#14312 Kubiccia

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 17:36

Is anybody interested in Schumacher onboards from Suzuka qualifying and FP?



#14313 arknor

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 17:44

Is anybody interested in Schumacher onboards from Suzuka qualifying and FP?

no i would love to see massa onboards when he was chasing schumacher though :(

#14314 dav115

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 17:50

Is anybody interested in Schumacher onboards from Suzuka qualifying and FP?

Does it show the Hamilton incident in Q3? *Edit* Either way I'd love to see them if you have a link :) .

Edited by dav115, 11 October 2011 - 17:50.


#14315 Poep

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 18:07

I doubt he set the car up specially for Sector 3. How do guys you explain his sector time in Qualifying? They were not outstanding enough to say he set it up for that sector.....right?

#14316 sharo

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 18:32

Didn't post time in Q3. We can't be sure.

#14317 Tarzaan

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 20:18

Hill doubts Vettel can rival Schumacher

Damon Hill has cast doubts on Sebastian Vettel's ability to take seven world titles in a more competitive era of F1 racing.

http://www.crash.net...schumacher.html

#14318 exmayol

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 22:19

These never ending talks of more competetive F1 is BS. Ferrari / MS dominance is what made everyone else look less competetive.

#14319 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 00:05

These never ending talks of more competetive F1 is BS. Ferrari / MS dominance is what made everyone else look less competetive.

same as the drivers are better than ever rubbish..

you telling me alonso , webber , button, rubens massa... are now super awesome compared to the schumacher era? if anything its less competitive because theres more pay drivers than ever and only 1 team is winning everything.

atleast in the schumacher years he always had a rival

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#14320 Jomyboy

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 04:56

The Schumacher era was something totally different. I guess the MS/Ferrari combo had just about the same advantage as Vettel/RBR are having now. The only difference being, back then they were too perfect. In a world when the probability of something going wrong is quite high, you have a six-sigma certified season. Vettel and RBR may have won this season easily, but it certainly does not look anywhere close to the domination of Schumi/Ferrari days. People talk about the pack being a whole lot more competitive now. I don't think its as easy as that. When Schumacher retired in 2006, the grid started looking a whole lot more competitive. 2007-2008-2009 seasons were mega simply because you never knew what was going to happen come raceday or even championship wise. Suddenly F1 became as competitive as it was during the mansell-prost-senna years. I can't remember where I heard it, but it was Alonso who said that with Schumacher as a competitor everything had to be perfect. I guess what he meant was that to win against Schumacher as a competitor you had to be on the game day in and day out. And now things have changed. Maybe in the years to come Vettel may become better as a driver and may even outshine Schumacher, but currently it doesn't require perfection to win a title.

All in all, the FIA knew how good and how deadly the Schumacher/Ferrari combo had begun and they tried bloody hard to beat them. I don't think that can ever be said of any driver in the history of motorsport where the FIA comes out with new rules simply to stop somebody winning. Okay maybe there was some back channel tough talking with Williams after the 92 season, but I think Williams had missed the deadline to fill in the entry or something and the FIA said that if you still wanted in you needed to get rid of the active suspension. So as might as the Williams were, they still goofed up :)

#14321 BRK

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:02

These never ending talks of more competetive F1 is BS. Ferrari / MS dominance is what made everyone else look less competetive.


This. If Schumacher hadn't made it to F1 imagine the kind of 'competitive era' we would've seen, Hakkinen, Hill, JV, Montoya, Raikkonen, Alonso, all world champions, three-way battles for the championship between McLaren, BMW-Williams and Renault. Hell, even DC would've had a title! Exciting. :smoking: Which is what we're seeing today..

#14322 GoRacing

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:48

Does it show the Hamilton incident in Q3? *Edit* Either way I'd love to see them if you have a link :) .


I would like to see it too, please post it.

#14323 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:01

I think a PM would be better for us, if you post it in public it will be deleted in hours

#14324 blager

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:26

Is anybody interested in Schumacher onboards from Suzuka qualifying and FP?

Count me in

#14325 Fourjays

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:05

Just wanted to say that I've been really impressed with Schumacher in the last few races. I was never a fan of his (grudgingly respected him) but I have found myself beginning to support him this year. Would really like to see Schumacher do well, especially given how hard many pundits have been on him since his comeback.

#14326 Sakae

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:20

The Schumacher era was something totally different. I guess the MS/Ferrari combo had just about the same advantage as Vettel/RBR are having now.

Advantage? To me 'advantage' sounds like very unfair gift. Facts however are, that Ferarri was actually very slow with Alesi and Gerhard behind the wheel. Lauda call them idiots once, if I recall. Point is, with Schumacher, Byrne, Brawn and others they improve it as the F1 competition demands and expects. There was no "advantage" handed to them, but they did simply better job than Williams, McLaren and others building the team and the car, and reap the results as they should at the end. Good car, good driver, and you have it. No advantage in that.

#14327 Group B

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:23

Just wanted to say that I've been really impressed with Schumacher in the last few races. I was never a fan of his (grudgingly respected him) but I have found myself beginning to support him this year. Would really like to see Schumacher do well, especially given how hard many pundits have been on him since his comeback.

:up:
Grandpa's determination has been excellent. He'll never be as good as 10 years ago, but he's stuck at it over the last 18 months and is now both giving Rosberg real problems and mixing it with the tail end of the top six.

#14328 SpeedyS

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:50

Is anybody interested in Schumacher onboards from Suzuka qualifying and FP?

Would be appreciated. Missed most of the weekend being away

#14329 TheMortalBard

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:52

:up:
Grandpa's determination has been excellent. He'll never be as good as 10 years ago, but he's stuck at it over the last 18 months and is now both giving Rosberg real problems and mixing it with the tail end of the top six.


I don't know if there is any way to gauge if he is as good as 10 years ago apart from a very generalized observation that his 'advanced' age has affected some of his abilities. That may apply to a normal person but MS (and most of the modern F1 drivers) don't adhere to the normal fitness standards. Today when I see Rubens and Michael side by side, Michael looks way more fitter. I think if there is enough motivation and the fitness is there, he will almost be at the same level as before. Debatable but that's just my opinion. I don't think Mika was unfit when he retired. He just lost the motivation.

What we are seeing now with MS is what he always had. Grim determination. It's a quality that a lot of fans didn't like about him (in addition to the fact that he was a bit naughty a couple of times in his career) but I am a huge fan because he is flawed. He doesn't know when to give up. This quality of him has taken him to great heights and also created some moments of madness. He was rightly criticized for some of those actions but who among us hasn't done something stupid. I am just glad to see him race. He is the last of the 'Old Guard'. As a fan, I will savor each race he competes in. Whether he wins again or not .. well .. that is yet to be seen.

Since his comeback, he has taken his time to understand where he needs to improve. He has taken in a loooooot of criticism. A lot of it was unfair apart from the Barrichello incident. But he has just worked hard and focused on getting to the front. Beating Rosberg has never been an objective for him. I am one of those fanatics who watches the live timing page while watching the race and I can confidently say that when it comes to race pace, MS has the edge over Nico this year. Nico should be worried. Should MS beat Nico this year, Nico's stock will fall.

#14330 Boing 2

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 13:07

Advantage? To me 'advantage' sounds like very unfair gift. Facts however are, that Ferarri was actually very slow with Alesi and Gerhard behind the wheel. Lauda call them idiots once, if I recall. Point is, with Schumacher, Byrne, Brawn and others they improve it as the F1 competition demands and expects. There was no "advantage" handed to them, but they did simply better job than Williams, McLaren and others building the team and the car, and reap the results as they should at the end. Good car, good driver, and you have it. No advantage in that.


I think you need to go and watch 1995 again, they weren't slow they just had horrible reliability (IIRC 16 DNF's in one year). They were actually contenders for multiple race wins, Suzuka, Spa, Monza and took close seconds in Argentina, San marino, Nurburgring, Silverstone as well as an actual win in Canada. With better reliability they could have been serious contenders.

Your second point is confusing two different arguments, if you build a better car than everyone else then your driver has an advantage clearly. You may fully deserve that advantage as a team but you can't claim not to have one.

Edited by Boing 2, 12 October 2011 - 13:07.


#14331 sharo

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 13:44

Even when you have a better car you need a driver who is able to deliver and materialize your constructors effort into results, most of the time and with good predictability.

#14332 LiJu914

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 13:57

I think you need to go and watch 1995 again, they weren't slow they just had horrible reliability (IIRC 16 DNF's in one year). They were actually contenders for multiple race wins, Suzuka, Spa, Monza and took close seconds in Argentina, San marino, Nurburgring, Silverstone as well as an actual win in Canada. With better reliability they could have been serious contenders.


Serious contenders for what? The WDC?

Your list is exaggerated.

By raw pace Ferrari were almost never contenders for wins.
Suzuka,Nürburgring and Imola were down to the mixed conditions and Alesi´s abilities in these conditions.
In Spa they benefitted from the "Quali-Chaos". But in the race you could easily see that Williams (e.g. DC) was faster and presumably also the later race winner MSC (who was still stuck in traffic before both Ferraris DNFed). And their only race-win was due to the Williams-DNFs and MSC´s electrical problems.
In fact Monza was more or less the only race in which Ferrari had "genuine pace" to win under normal circumstances.









#14333 Jomyboy

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 14:04

Even when you have a better car you need a driver who is able to deliver and materialize your constructors effort into results, most of the time and with good predictability.



Very true, otherwise, Hill would have won many more world championships. :-) OTOH Hill was massively advantaged and hence looked better than he was in the Williams Car. In my opinion, there were better drivers out there who could have done more with the Williams.

#14334 arknor

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 14:22

I don't know if there is any way to gauge if he is as good as 10 years ago apart from a very generalized observation that his 'advanced' age has affected some of his abilities. That may apply to a normal person but MS (and most of the modern F1 drivers) don't adhere to the normal fitness standards. Today when I see Rubens and Michael side by side, Michael looks way more fitter. I think if there is enough motivation and the fitness is there, he will almost be at the same level as before. Debatable but that's just my opinion. I don't think Mika was unfit when he retired. He just lost the motivation.

What we are seeing now with MS is what he always had. Grim determination. It's a quality that a lot of fans didn't like about him (in addition to the fact that he was a bit naughty a couple of times in his career) but I am a huge fan because he is flawed. He doesn't know when to give up. This quality of him has taken him to great heights and also created some moments of madness. He was rightly criticized for some of those actions but who among us hasn't done something stupid. I am just glad to see him race. He is the last of the 'Old Guard'. As a fan, I will savor each race he competes in. Whether he wins again or not .. well .. that is yet to be seen.

Since his comeback, he has taken his time to understand where he needs to improve. He has taken in a loooooot of criticism. A lot of it was unfair apart from the Barrichello incident. But he has just worked hard and focused on getting to the front. Beating Rosberg has never been an objective for him. I am one of those fanatics who watches the live timing page while watching the race and I can confidently say that when it comes to race pace, MS has the edge over Nico this year. Nico should be worried. Should MS beat Nico this year, Nico's stock will fall.

how old are you? because everything gets harder as you get older and motivating your self to do even the simplest tasks can be really tough.

im only 30 but realise i just cant be bothered to do stuff i would have leaped at 5 years ago, its not just physical either its mental

#14335 schubacca

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 14:32

The 1995 Ferrari was a dog

#14336 Boing 2

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 14:33

Serious contenders for what? The WDC?

Your list is exaggerated.

By raw pace Ferrari were almost never contenders for wins.
Suzuka,Nürburgring and Imola were down to the mixed conditions and Alesi´s abilities in these conditions.
In Spa they benefitted from the "Quali-Chaos". But in the race you could easily see that Williams (e.g. DC) was faster and presumably also the later race winner MSC (who was still stuck in traffic before both Ferraris DNFed). And their only race-win was due to the Williams-DNFs and MSC´s electrical problems.
In fact Monza was more or less the only race in which Ferrari had "genuine pace" to win under normal circumstances.


Of course WDC, Hill finished second in the title fight on 69 points, Alesi 5th on 42, even if you only give Alesi the Suzuka and Monza wins that would put him on 62 points. Give him a few of the 8 finishes he didn't get on top of that and he would easily have got into 2nd, well ahead of Hill's point total. He had four 2nd places don't forget, so his pace at Canada was no flash in the pan.

As far as I'm concerned, pace in changing conditions is still valid race pace as changeable conditions are part of every season.

#14337 ivand911

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 14:58

I was hoping for a little rain in the Korea race. :rolleyes:

#14338 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 15:00

I think you need to go and watch 1995 again, they weren't slow they just had horrible reliability (IIRC 16 DNF's in one year). They were actually contenders for multiple race wins, Suzuka, Spa, Monza and took close seconds in Argentina, San Marino, Nurburgring, Silverstone as well as an actual win in Canada. With better reliability they could have been serious contenders.


Rubbish, Berger and Alesi drove the tits off of them all year, they had to, they were slow - one pole, 3 fastest laps (in San Marino and Monza, 'Ferrari's tracks' and Monaco more driver orientated) and one WCC race round for Ferrari all year. Oh yeah, one win in Canada, what happened to all the other front runners? Maybe you had better go look yourself at 1995.

Start here - http://www.allf1.info/ > site map > grids > 1995.

This was the story of 1995, Shumacher Vs Williams and rarely anyone else to be seen...

http://v.youku.com/v...k4MTc3MjM2.html


#14339 TheMortalBard

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 15:09

how old are you? because everything gets harder as you get older and motivating your self to do even the simplest tasks can be really tough.

im only 30 but realise i just cant be bothered to do stuff i would have leaped at 5 years ago, its not just physical either its mental


I am 36 and you are absolutely right. The motivation part is the hardest. Fortunately I am just as active as when I was 22 or 25 (Damn it ... seems like a long time ago!). I work out and keep myself fit but I've also realized that life experiences has made me better (mentally) than when I was young(er). My priorities have changed but I have the same level of intensity for my current priorities.

Going back to MS, I think he always uses the word motivation. And he seems to be very very motivated. Another word he uses a lot is 'challenge'. He has a huge challenge with Merc. To do it all again in an environment that is totally different. Less budget and testing being the biggest changes. And he is way way way fitter than me ! ;) So I think motivation comes easily to him. You and me have (probably) had a more rounded life. Things that we are passionate about changes throughout. It's different for someone like MS who has only known racing since he was a wee toddler. Formula one is physical but not in the same way as tennis or boxing. There age can make a bigger difference.

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#14340 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 15:12

If you watched Massa's onboard he was hitting the rev limiter on the pit straight. Something's funny about the way Schumi is setting up the car.


If you can't go around corners fast as the Benz can't at the moment then place that energy into another area ie; go faster down the straights as per Monza.


#14341 schubacca

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 15:24

I am 36 and you are absolutely right. The motivation part is the hardest. Fortunately I am just as active as when I was 22 or 25 (Damn it ... seems like a long time ago!). I work out and keep myself fit but I've also realized that life experiences has made me better (mentally) than when I was young(er). My priorities have changed but I have the same level of intensity for my current priorities.

Going back to MS, I think he always uses the word motivation. And he seems to be very very motivated. Another word he uses a lot is 'challenge'. He has a huge challenge with Merc. To do it all again in an environment that is totally different. Less budget and testing being the biggest changes. And he is way way way fitter than me ! ;) So I think motivation comes easily to him. You and me have (probably) had a more rounded life. Things that we are passionate about changes throughout. It's different for someone like MS who has only known racing since he was a wee toddler. Formula one is physical but not in the same way as tennis or boxing. There age can make a bigger difference.


For me, MS's legacy is intact. Nothing that he does at 42 affects or diminishes his 7 WDCs, 90+ GP wins etc.....

That is why I think that this second career is awesome for him. No one, apart from Hakinnen or Alonso can really say that they beat him in his prime in a straight fight.

Not Vettel, not Hamilton, not anyone at the moment because he is not in his prime. I would find that liberating in a way....

I am sure that MS wants to win again, but at the moment it appears that all the pressure is on his team mate rather than him.

#14342 Boing 2

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 15:39

Rubbish, Berger and Alesi drove the tits off of them all year, they had to, they were slow - one pole, 3 fastest laps (in San Marino and Monza, 'Ferrari's tracks' and Monaco more driver orientated) and one WCC race round for Ferrari all year. Oh yeah, one win in Canada, what happened to all the other front runners? Maybe you had better go look yourself at 1995.

Start here - http://www.allf1.info/ > site map > grids > 1995.

This was the story of 1995, Shumacher Vs Williams and rarely anyone else to be seen...

http://v.youku.com/v...k4MTc3MjM2.html


  • 1 pole
  • 5 front row starts
  • 16 top four starts
  • 1 win
  • 2 retirements from the lead
  • 4 second places
  • 2 retirements from second (once while catching the leader in suzuka)
  • 11 podiums in total

No, I wouldn't call that slow.

You can drive a car as hard as you like it'll only give you what it's got, no more, the speed the car delivered is the speed the car had, not magic speed injected by the drivers.

Anyway, this is all OT.

Edited by Boing 2, 12 October 2011 - 15:45.


#14343 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 16:14

No, I wouldn't call that slow.

You can drive a car as hard as you like it'll only give you what it's got, no more, the speed the car delivered is the speed the car had, not magic speed injected by the drivers.

Anyway, this is all OT.


I would, I just watched some of 1995.

The speed a car delivers over one or some laps is not indicative of what a car is capable of doing lap after lap for a whole GP, under that criteria the Ferrari was slow. Both the Williams and Benetton were capable of fast laps from start to finish ie; the race time and your result list would look pale next to either of there's.

It isn't OT, the connection with Schumacher is clear and relevant to what you are implying. The Ferrari car and team that Schumacher entered into was slow in 1996 and he and the other relevant talented people around him together bought it to the front with all their various skills supporting Schumachers driving brilliance in those years.




#14344 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 16:18

I am sure that MS wants to win again, but at the moment it appears that all the pressure is on his team mate rather than him.


His previous incarnations show he is a festidious and patient developer of the car and team, I expected better results (not wins mind you) in the second half of last years but seems with the no testing, 3 year lay off and possibly his age the method is slower than expected.

#14345 Group B

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 16:20

It isn't OT, the connection with Schumacher is clear and relevant to what you are implying. The Ferrari car and team that Schumacher entered into was slow in 1996 and he and the other relevant talented people around him together bought it to the front with all their various skills supporting Schumachers driving brilliance in those years.

This really isn't rocket science. Unless you choose to believe in a plethora of coincidences and web of conspiracy it's patently obvious that MS played the major role in Ferrari's turnaround, together, of course, with Brawn, Byrne and a couple of others.

#14346 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 16:31

This really isn't rocket science. Unless you choose to believe in a plethora of coincidences and web of conspiracy it's patently obvious that MS played the major role in Ferrari's turnaround, together, of course, with Brawn, Byrne and a couple of others.


and then there's that awful cringeworthy moment in 1996 when Briatore stands up in front of an audience with Alesi and Berger sitting behind him and flatly announces how much better Schumacher is than his own drivers :blush:, geez I felt terrible for them watching that - I know where that is, I'll post it in the next few days.


#14347 fieraku

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 16:34

For me, MS's legacy is intact. Nothing that he does at 42 affects or diminishes his 7 WDCs, 90+ GP wins etc.....

That is why I think that this second career is awesome for him. No one, apart from Hakinnen or Alonso can really say that they beat him in his prime in a straight fight.

Not Vettel, not Hamilton, not anyone at the moment because he is not in his prime. I would find that liberating in a way....


I am sure that MS wants to win again, but at the moment it appears that all the pressure is on his team mate rather than him.

Schumi could father those two,so we can be pretty safe about his prime. :lol:
Anyone that even makes the slightest attempt at diminishing even a Schu podium should just be ignored and not replied to.

#14348 LiJu914

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 16:50

Of course WDC, Hill finished second in the title fight on 69 points, Alesi 5th on 42, even if you only give Alesi the Suzuka and Monza wins that would put him on 62 points. Give him a few of the 8 finishes he didn't get on top of that and he would easily have got into 2nd, well ahead of Hill's point total. He had four 2nd places don't forget, so his pace at Canada was no flash in the pan.

As far as I'm concerned, pace in changing conditions is still valid race pace as changeable conditions are part of every season.


WDC-contender? :rotfl:

Give him this, give him that.

Ok let´s give Alesi Monza and Suzuka. But according to that logic Alesi has also to give his victory at Montreal to MSC... MSC gets another win in Sivlerstone because he was bumped by Hill etc.
Give Hill a possible P1 in Interlagos, when he suffered a gearbox failure.
It´s starting to get a little bit complicated....

Facts are: Ferrari was less reliable than the top two teams and was also only the 3rd fastest car in most races of the year. Never a WDC-contender....

Edited by LiJu914, 12 October 2011 - 16:51.


#14349 George Costanza

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 17:01

For me, MS's legacy is intact. Nothing that he does at 42 affects or diminishes his 7 WDCs, 90+ GP wins etc.....

That is why I think that this second career is awesome for him. No one, apart from Hakinnen or Alonso can really say that they beat him in his prime in a straight fight.

Not Vettel, not Hamilton, not anyone at the moment because he is not in his prime. I would find that liberating in a way....

I am sure that MS wants to win again, but at the moment it appears that all the pressure is on his team mate rather than him.



Alonso did not beat vintage MS. In fact, no one did, except Mika and McLaren and that was with a large gap in car development. Mika could not beat Schu when he was on it (2000 season). Even the 1998 season could have been won by Ferrari.

Only one driver could beat vintage MS and that would be Senna. Prost to an extent.

Edited by George Costanza, 12 October 2011 - 17:02.


#14350 Group B

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 17:12

Alonso did not beat vintage MS. In fact, no one did, except Mika and McLaren and that was with a large gap in car development. Mika could not beat Schu when he was on it (2000 season). Even the 1998 season could have been won by Ferrari.

Only one driver could beat vintage MS and that would be Senna. Prost to an extent.

Largely true. MS 2005 wasn't as outright fast as MS 2000, whether it be due to passing years or waning hunger.