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#14401 SparkPlug

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:42

Factually incorrect, Schumacher failed to finish 3 races, Australia, Hungary and Japan while Alonso failed to finish 2 races, Hungary and Italy.

If you want to do your typically historic trolling in the Schumacher thread, then make some sort of effort to get your actual facts correct.

Failing to finish is different from having mechanical failures.

Schumacher crashed out of Australia and Hungary due to his own errors.
Wheras Alonso had no role to play in the engine failure at Italy or the suspension collapse in Hungary.

You may argue that Brazil's qualifying should also be added to Schumacher's list of mech failures, but surely retiring from a race is far worse than having a mechanical failure in qualifying ? Maybe we should also add that ridiculous penalty that Alonso received at Monza to the list of issues he faced that were not his fault.

I think its fair to say that the better (or rather more consistent) driver won in 2006.

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#14402 sharo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:44

I also hear it. About the change I mean. Can they use older gearbox in FP?

Don't panic  ;)
They use old engines and gearboxes for Friday.

#14403 cheapracer

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 06:58

Schumacher crashed out of Australia and Hungary due to his own errors.

I think its fair to say that the better (or rather more consistent) driver won in 2006.


He also started rear grid and 14th in 2 races blah blah blah

I think it's fair to say the better car won.


Its not possible for a driver to outperform his car. Maybe drive close to its physical limit, but not above.


Edited by cheapracer, 14 October 2011 - 07:07.


#14404 SparkPlug

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:06

He also started rear grid and 14th in 2 races blah blah blah

I think it's fair to say the better car won.

Thats a matter of opinion, then. Alonso made lesser mistakes than Schumacher in 2006 as well.

Schumacher made major mistakes at Australia, Turkey, Hungary and Monaco which cost him a bunch of points.

While Alonso made one mistake at China all season (only changing two tyres) and even that was atleast 50% down to the Renault strategists. Did he have any more ? (I'm struggling to remember any mistakes which cost him points).

I would say the Renault and Ferrari over the course of the season were fairly evenly matched. It was an extremely tight battle, but the guy who made fewer mistakes came out top.

#14405 Tarzaan

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:24

Thats a matter of opinion, then. Alonso made lesser mistakes than Schumacher in 2006 as well.

Schumacher made major mistakes at Australia, Turkey, Hungary and Monaco which cost him a bunch of points.

While Alonso made one mistake at China all season (only changing two tyres) and even that was atleast 50% down to the Renault strategists. Did he have any more ? (I'm struggling to remember any mistakes which cost him points).

I would say the Renault and Ferrari over the course of the season were fairly evenly matched. It was an extremely tight battle, but the guy who made fewer mistakes came out top.



In Turkey?

#14406 pUs

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:26

Sigh, give it a rest please... The better (and fairer) driver won in 2006 despite having more mech failures, end of story.


Except that the winning driver didn't have "more" mechanical failures, rather the opposite. Wrong like always, classic Fortymark.

Edited by pUs, 14 October 2011 - 08:27.


#14407 as65p

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:32

Nice to see 2006 remembered so fondly in here. :up:

#14408 arknor

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:59

Nice to see 2006 remembered so fondly in here. :up:

remembered forever for mass dampener :D

#14409 holiday

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:44

I would say the Renault and Ferrari over the course of the season were fairly evenly matched. It was an extremely tight battle, but the guy who made fewer mistakes came out top.


My view exactly. And not the guy who was faster.

#14410 as65p

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 09:59

remembered forever for mass dampener :D


Arbitrary ban of it mid-season, you surely mean?  ;)

#14411 cheapracer

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:01

Thats a matter of opinion, then.


Yes and I'm making my pro-Schumacher opinion in the, not surprisingly, Schumacher thread.

The pro-Alonso thread is here, maybe you should post there - I mean it's on page 2 so needs all the help it can get.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=126741


#14412 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:03

Arbitrary ban of it mid-season, you surely mean? ;)


Must have been banned for a reason, no matter how spurious or arbitary the reasoning may be have been.

#14413 cheapracer

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:05

Arbitrary ban of it mid-season, you surely mean?;)


And when did the Renault start to come back to the Ferrari?

Just confirmation that the Renault was the faster car for the first half at least.

Must have been banned for a reason, no matter how spurious or arbitary the reasoning may be have been.


It should not have been banned mid season the way it was, the whole deal was pretty harsh but that doesn't change the facts that the Renault was clearly superior over the Ferrari with it.

Edited by cheapracer, 14 October 2011 - 10:16.


#14414 sharo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:29

Schumacher made major mistakes at Australia, Turkey, Hungary and Monaco which cost him a bunch of points.

Ferrari went very conservative with the tyres at the beginning until (I think Williams) pointed that Bridgestone had in fact better spec ones. That's the reason for the crash in Australia - went far over the limit of their tyres - and losing the first races.
Turkey? It was the SC and the pit stop in the most unsuitable time because of it. No driver error.
Hungary - I don't know who is responsible for staying out on warn to slicks intermedias. But at least was an exciting drive, although desperate.
Monaco? I think better not touch this. Most say it was deliberate, you say mistake, and I agree.

(BTW, seeing Button not able to engage reverse gear and the car consequently stalling in Singapore, the Monaco 2006 events came to my mind.)

#14415 BRK

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:38

but the guy who made fewer mistakes came out top.


Just like 2009, then. Easy being 'consistent' when you have out and away the fastest, best, and rock-solidly reliable car + tyre package to start the season with. Button didn't even have the advantage Renault had going into the second half of the season.


As for arbitrary stuff from the FIA,how about the pathetic outcry over the flexi-wings as early as Malaysia in March? Funny how no one talks about that, how Ferrari (Schumacher in particular) were targeted. The same concept that seems to have been rather important to the performance of the Red Bull in recent years. As opposed to letting Renault get away with their cheating for a whopping 11 races in 06, continuing on from 2005. :rolleyes:

Edited by BRK, 14 October 2011 - 10:40.


#14416 as65p

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:40

And when did the Renault start to come back to the Ferrari?

Just confirmation that the Renault was the faster car for the first half at least.

It should not have been banned mid season the way it was, the whole deal was pretty harsh but that doesn't change the facts that the Renault was clearly superior over the Ferrari with it.


Pretty much spot on, except for the 'at least'.  ;)

I'd say the Renault was as much a better car with MD as the Ferrari was after the ban.

#14417 cheapracer

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 10:49

Pretty much spot on, except for the 'at least'. ;)

I'd say the Renault was as much a better car with MD as the Ferrari was after the ban.


Don't agree with me, it makes me nervous and upsets me.


#14418 Fortymark

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:51

Of course the Ferrari 248/Bridgestone combo was the faster car over the season in 2006.
You donĀ“t need to look further than how Massa beat Fisichella on all accounts.
More poles, more wins and more FL and more points over the season.

Sometimes the Bridgestone tires were just superior, but the Michelins were never
so good that other (none Renaults)Michelin drivers beat the Ferraris.
Ex Ralf Schumacher in a frekking Toyota beating Fisichella (and both Macs) in France with almost 20 seconds..

#14419 Jejking

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:02

Ferrari went very conservative with the tyres at the beginning until (I think Williams) pointed that Bridgestone had in fact better spec ones. That's the reason for the crash in Australia - went far over the limit of their tyres - and losing the first races.
Turkey? It was the SC and the pit stop in the most unsuitable time because of it. No driver error.
Hungary - I don't know who is responsible for staying out on warn to slicks intermedias. But at least was an exciting drive, although desperate.
Monaco? I think better not touch this. Most say it was deliberate, you say mistake, and I agree.

(BTW, seeing Button not able to engage reverse gear and the car consequently stalling in Singapore, the Monaco 2006 events came to my mind.)

I still blame Australia on Schumacher, he was pretty ragged there with more time on the dirt than on the track. He pushed too hard and should have just taken his points home, a driver of his calibre should have known that even he can get caught out if your tyres are not ok. And that is not meant in an offensive way. Tactics were good there, btw, that first long stint was good :) Although that one attack of Liuzzi he should have easily fended off but ok!
Turkey: Schumacher made a mistake in Q2 I thought, Q3 he was too conservative. Followed Massa, was caught out by SC but on a very long second stint went off all by himself in Turn 8, remember? It cost him those crucial seconds to stay ahead of Alonso.
Hungary: bad decision, I guess Schumacher made the call (usually the drivers' call in the end) after being misinformed about the weather. Then he fell away after some very hard fights but should have taken those points home.

In both cases where he should have taken less for granted, I blame Brawn/Todt for not holding their driver back because in such a situation you know something is gone out of hand before you can blink with your eyes.

Monaco: grey area. IF he made a mistake, (lost control at 50kph) it means he cracked under the pressure of Alonso and a bunch of other drivers being on better laps. IF he did it on purpose in the heat of the moment after +0.2s on his dash, it means he cracked under the pressure and resorted to bad measures to take care of the problem. Ultimately we will probably never know so it's up to your own interpretation. James Allens book is very good on this matter, he deemed the move on purpose but not premeditated.

(Yes, I'm doing a videoproduction on Schumacher as thesis ^^)

Edited by Jejking, 14 October 2011 - 12:03.


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#14420 ivand911

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:18

Can we go back to reality?
Posted Image
This is what MS think about your discussions! :rotfl:

#14421 spacekid

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:23

Regards 2006, I think the Renault and Ferrari were pretty even over the season, as were Schumi and Nando. But Schumi was winding down and weary after 11 years at the top of F1, whether his decision to retire was his alone or down to politics we don't know but he was more error prone than usual that year. I don't think he was in his prime operational window.

Alonso was the more consistent driver for sure, and is clearly brilliant. Schumi was still able to pull out performances at his top level, but not enough of them to beat Nando over the season. And losing to Nando in his prime in the (joint equal?) best car is no bad thing at all. Not for a man who has been at the top for so very long and was clearly tired.

Regards Monaco, I always think of Michael as just being a big kid when he has his occaisonal 'bad' moments. I don't think he has ever meant harm, or even premeditated any of his actions. Rather, i think he can't stand to lose and just panics. He has always tended to make mistakes of judgement under pressure, its his one weakness.

Edited by spacekid, 14 October 2011 - 14:26.


#14422 ivand911

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 13:43

http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/145.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/250.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/268.jpg
Posted Image
Offroad Yeah.
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/331.jpg

Edited by ivand911, 14 October 2011 - 13:44.


#14423 GoRacing

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 13:56

http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/145.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/250.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/268.jpg
Posted Image
Offroad Yeah.
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/331.jpg


In one of the photos, why does he drink from such a long straw when he is out of the car? :lol:

#14424 spacekid

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 14:25

Nice pics. He may have a few more laughter lines when he smiles, but Schumi is not looking like a man who is close to retiring. In fact he looks damn fresh.

If he can finish off this season like the last few races have been going I hoestly believe he might extend this little project.

#14425 arknor

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 15:18

In one of the photos, why does he drink from such a long straw when he is out of the car? :lol:

maybe he doesnt like to bend his kneck forward since the accident ?

#14426 ivand911

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 15:23

Posted Image
Posted Image
Woops
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/409.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/527.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/590.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...a-14oct/724.jpg

Edited by ivand911, 14 October 2011 - 15:25.


#14427 SparkPlug

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 17:01

My view exactly. And not the guy who was faster.

Its irrelevant that you think Alonso wasn't faster than Schumacher since its impossible to prove it anyway (and a doubtful hypothesis in any case).


Yes and I'm making my pro-Schumacher opinion in the, not surprisingly, Schumacher thread.

The pro-Alonso thread is here, maybe you should post there - I mean it's on page 2 so needs all the help it can get.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=126741

Not the most intelligent argument I've seen in a while. If someone disagrees with you, ask them to go away ?

Ferrari went very conservative with the tyres at the beginning until (I think Williams) pointed that Bridgestone had in fact better spec ones. That's the reason for the crash in Australia - went far over the limit of their tyres - and losing the first races.
Turkey? It was the SC and the pit stop in the most unsuitable time because of it. No driver error.
Hungary - I don't know who is responsible for staying out on warn to slicks intermedias. But at least was an exciting drive, although desperate.
Monaco? I think better not touch this. Most say it was deliberate, you say mistake, and I agree.

(BTW, seeing Button not able to engage reverse gear and the car consequently stalling in Singapore, the Monaco 2006 events came to my mind.)


1. Going 'far over the limit of their tyres' is classified as driver error
2. I'm referring to Schumacher's mess up in his Q3 lap which cost him pole, which caused him to wait behind Massa, which caused him to lose the race.
3. 'At least was an exciting drive' doesn't cover for the fact that he defended illegally and made a mistake continuing on those tyres, and then collided with Heidfeld in a move that was clearly his fault.
4. If Monaco was deliberate, Schumacher made a mistake of judgement thinking he'd get away with blatant blocking. If it wasn't deliberate, it was one of the worst mistakes made by a top driver in the past 20 years. Take your pick. :)

Just like 2009, then. Easy being 'consistent' when you have out and away the fastest, best, and rock-solidly reliable car + tyre package to start the season with. Button didn't even have the advantage Renault had going into the second half of the season.

Incorrect facts again. Ferrari was in the hunt from the very first race (Bahrain) and were always in contention for podium finishes at the very least if not race wins. In the second half of the season Ferrari was arguably as good as Renault was in the first half, with the exception of wet races.

As for arbitrary stuff from the FIA,how about the pathetic outcry over the flexi-wings as early as Malaysia in March? Funny how no one talks about that, how Ferrari (Schumacher in particular) were targeted. The same concept that seems to have been rather important to the performance of the Red Bull in recent years. As opposed to letting Renault get away with their cheating for a whopping 11 races in 06, continuing on from 2005. :rolleyes:


We're talking about drivers being affected by mechanical failures / things outside his sphere of control. Hence the point on Monza 2006.

Are you saying Alonso's penalty at Monza was justified ?

Edited by SparkPlug, 14 October 2011 - 17:03.


#14428 sharo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 17:08

.............
4. If Monaco was deliberate, Schumacher made a mistake of judgement thinking he'd get away with blatant blocking. If it wasn't deliberate, it was one of the worst mistakes made by a top driver in the past 20 years. Take your pick. :)
............

As I said, I'm not going to comment it.
However you missed an option, it's called "ignore". :wave:

#14429 SparkPlug

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 17:18

As I said, I'm not going to comment it.
However you missed an option, it's called "ignore". :wave:

You not commenting on it or ignoring it doesnt take away from the fact that it was a mistake, deliberate or otherwise.

I can also see you have no answer to the other 3 races where Schumacher made mistakes. I'd take the silence / sidestepping the issue as agreement :up:

#14430 holiday

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 17:24

Its irrelevant that you think Alonso wasn't faster than Schumacher since its impossible to prove it anyway (and a doubtful hypothesis in any case).


Irrelevant to you perhaps which is irrelevant to me. Now troll elsewhere.


#14431 as65p

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 17:27

Don't agree with me, it makes me nervous and upsets me.


:lol: I like that.

Maybe I should do it more often! :D

#14432 zelpre

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:08

Michael's Korean GP Pictures: http://www.facebook....2...8259&type=1

#14433 merschu

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:19

I was wondering why did a Mercedes GP employee tweet this? Just a random thought or what? :confused:

Onionterrors: Lewis Hamilton. Rosberg's partner at MercGP in 2013?



http://twitter.com/#!/onionterrors

#14434 Richardc

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:27

Maybe he meant Schumachers partner. Hopefully.

#14435 spacekid

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:29

I was wondering why did a Mercedes GP employee tweet this? Just a random thought or what? :confused:



http://twitter.com/#!/onionterrors


Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

He's just getting good again. Don't want him to leave again.

In any case its doubtful, I thought DiResta was a shoe in for the team?

Surely this wind up is more likely to bother McLaren, after all Lewis has been openly courting himself to other teams...

#14436 arknor

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:43

I was wondering why did a Mercedes GP employee tweet this? Just a random thought or what? :confused:



http://twitter.com/#!/onionterrors

no im sure some random mercedes gp employee speaks for the team and knows the score...

#14437 BRK

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:48

Incorrect facts again. Ferrari was in the hunt from the very first race (Bahrain) and were always in contention for podium finishes at the very least if not race wins. In the second half of the season Ferrari was arguably as good as Renault was in the first half, with the exception of wet races.


So were Red Bull in 2009. In the hunt for podiums, if not wins, from the outset. Button was nevertheless one of the most consistent drivers of the season. Point being that if you have such as massive advantage in terms of the whole package (car + tyre + reliability + balance + starts) you wouldn't need to push as hard. Cruise and collect drivers will always be more consistent while those that're driving cars off the pace will naturally need to push harder = more mistakes. Renault basically picked up from where they'd left off in 2005, while Ferrari were off the back of a dismal campaign in 05 and were still getting to grips with the Bridgestone issues, which still plagued them in 2006: remember San Marino?

There's way too many factors involved to categorize the season neatly into two halves. Performance was both circuit and tyre dependent, it was not as simple as the fairy tale stories that are usually presented on here make it out to be.

We're talking about drivers being affected by mechanical failures / things outside his sphere of control. Hence the point on Monza 2006.

Are you saying Alonso's penalty at Monza was justified ?


The flexi-wing issue was outside Michael's control, too. I don't think the penalty was justified, at the time I laughed out loud when the question of Felipe having been blocked was brought up. But what does that have to do with Renault running with an illegal, unfair and massive advantage for 11 races in an 18 race season? They cheated for the vast majority of the season and hoarded up on points, wonder how the season would've worked out had they clamped down on them early on, just as they did with Ferrari.

I was wondering why did a Mercedes GP employee tweet this? Just a random thought or what? :confused:



http://twitter.com/#!/onionterrors


Which side of the garage does he work on? ;)

Edited by BRK, 14 October 2011 - 18:50.


#14438 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:50

I was wondering why did a Mercedes GP employee tweet this? Just a random thought or what? :confused:



http://twitter.com/#!/onionterrors


I see Hamilton going to Red Bull in 2013 rather than Mercedes.

#14439 zelpre

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:55

I was wondering why did a Mercedes GP employee tweet this? Just a random thought or what? :confused:



http://twitter.com/#!/onionterrors


I wouldn't say this guy is MGP employee or anyhow connected to MGP.

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#14440 BRK

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 18:56

Don't have an account on Twitter but someone should ask him what he's talking about. :D

#14441 arknor

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 19:01

I wouldn't say this guy is MGP employee or anyhow connected to MGP.

one of his tweets lists a bunch of suposed mercedes employee tweet acounts but he doesnt seem very profesional and comes across as a tard whos mad about rugby so hes probably just some random idiot

#14442 Starish

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 19:26

one of his tweets lists a bunch of suposed mercedes employee tweet acounts but he doesnt seem very profesional and comes across as a tard whos mad about rugby so hes probably just some random idiot

His Pictures seem kinda legit though, but hey these guys speculate also and he doesn't seem that high up in the rankings though.

#14443 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 19:30

As a Schumacher fan, what really annoys me about him, is his red helmet and pink gloves!

#14444 ali.unal

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 19:30

Don't have an account on Twitter but someone should ask him what he's talking about. :D

I've referred that twitter and asked directly to OfficialMGP twitter account whether it has truth in it.

http://twitter.com/#!/efBir_blog/statu...929661925994496

I'll write follow-ups, if any.

#14445 GoRacing

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 19:57

I've referred that twitter and asked directly to OfficialMGP twitter account whether it has truth in it.

http://twitter.com/#!/efBir_blog/statu...929661925994496

I'll write follow-ups, if any.


Hopefully they respond and say it's all bullsh!t. I really really hope he stays on beyond 2012.

#14446 zelpre

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 20:57

It's bullshit lol! that guys is some random idiot who is MGP fan. that's all

#14447 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 21:10

As a Schumacher fan, what really annoys me about him, is his red helmet and pink gloves!



For past twenty years I am still looking for Michael's fashion adviser (while I do carry big stick in my hand).

#14448 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 21:14

I wouldn't say this guy is MGP employee or anyhow connected to MGP.

...a lot people left under restriction agreement, and not all are happy. This came up on several occassions in the past.

#14449 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 21:17

I am hoping that MS will be invited to extend his stay with MGP by one more year.

#14450 weston

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 21:38

It's bullshit lol! that guys is some random idiot who is MGP fan. that's all


Are you sure? Check out his twitter account including photos of colleagues from MGP.
His tweet is not more than a pitlane joke and Hamilton needs a big hug not MGP I guess.