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#1401 doublestars

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 18:15

Rosberg is going to be in trouble if the same will happen at Mercedes GP, driving a car that doesnt really suit him.


The current car is not really suitable for nico too, as some reports said, the car was built around Jeason, not either schumi or nico. So do you mean nico is in trouble now? Ok, well, he will be in trouble all the time. ;)

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#1402 libano

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 19:18

What quotes are you looking for exactly? Hill v Schumacher was a media disaster zone. You were either there, or you were not. The only positive aspect was that the Interwebs was in its infancy, so no 20,000 post thread.


what i'm saying is that i'm interested in the point you raised and would like to read more about it than vague 2nd hands comments. if you have any sources to back your point of view up then i would like to see them myself. i was there in the hill vs schumacher era and never encountered MS dissing Hill.

there's a disturbing habit on this forum going on where people present assumption as facts. i want facts, not opinions of some random sideline figure. that's why i'm asking for sources. without sources a post like the above has about zero credibility.

quotes like this just don't disappear in thin air and should be easy enough to track down.

i repeat: quotes please. or some kind of hard proof. don't just waste everybody's time on this forum.

Edited by libano, 30 April 2010 - 19:22.


#1403 Number62

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 20:43

what i'm saying is that i'm interested in the point you raised and would like to read more about it than vague 2nd hands comments. if you have any sources to back your point of view up then i would like to see them myself. i was there in the hill vs schumacher era and never encountered MS dissing Hill.

there's a disturbing habit on this forum going on where people present assumption as facts. i want facts, not opinions of some random sideline figure. that's why i'm asking for sources. without sources a post like the above has about zero credibility.

quotes like this just don't disappear in thin air and should be easy enough to track down.

i repeat: quotes please. or some kind of hard proof. don't just waste everybody's time on this forum.


http://www.independe...nt-1600622.html



#1404 as65p

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 20:45

what i'm saying is that i'm interested in the point you raised and would like to read more about it than vague 2nd hands comments. if you have any sources to back your point of view up then i would like to see them myself. i was there in the hill vs schumacher era and never encountered MS dissing Hill.

there's a disturbing habit on this forum going on where people present assumption as facts. i want facts, not opinions of some random sideline figure. that's why i'm asking for sources. without sources a post like the above has about zero credibility.

quotes like this just don't disappear in thin air and should be easy enough to track down.

i repeat: quotes please. or some kind of hard proof. don't just waste everybody's time on this forum.


Get yourself a copy of Autosport 1994/10/20 on ebay and look for yourself.

#1405 aditya-now

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 21:39

Today Michael Schumacher was presented with the Chevalier of the French Legion of Honour prize by French Prime Minister Francois Fillon :clap:


Again I am asking how Michael managed to receive the knighthood of the Légion d'honneur (Ordre national de la Légion d'honneur) - a medal presented to a maximum quota of 125.000 of recipients.
The point of my interest is the fact that it is a national French order, and so it´s curious how a German national gets it.

In Germany there is no such habit of presenting sportsmen with honors like this, and if anything, Michael has done a lot with his sportive achievements for the image of Germany.
That Michael lives in the French part of Switzerland has always raised a certain disdain in Germany, but in connection with this knighthood I am interested what special achievements Michael has done for the Republic of France.

And again: has Alain Prost ever received such honour? As a Frenchman he surely would be suitable, as through his achievements he has put some positive spotlight on his nation.

Lastly: Jean Todt is French - is there maybe a link in this direction?

I know that some people on this forum who call me a lunatic and other niceties (mods?) will immediately cry out again that I despise Michael, yet I am genuinely curious about this knighthood.


#1406 libano

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 21:48

Get yourself a copy of Autosport 1994/10/20 on ebay and look for yourself.


you do realise that you sound rather ridiculous, don't you?

#1407 libano

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 21:51

http://www.independe...nt-1600622.html


thanks a lot for taking the effort of posting this. interesting article!

#1408 Szoelloe

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 21:57

I know that some people on this forum who call me a lunatic and other niceties (mods?) will immediately cry out again that I despise Michael, yet I am genuinely curious about this knighthood.


so true.

what exactly is your problem? (besides the above?)

#1409 as65p

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 22:05

you do realise that you sound rather ridiculous, don't you?


You wanted a source, I gave you a source (which is already a lot considering how "nice" you asked).

#1410 Raelene

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 22:06

Firts sutil now webber. What would these CURRENT DRIVERS know



Red Bull's Mark Webber says Michael Schumacher's return should not be judged until after the next two races.

Schumacher, 41, has been off the pace of Mercedes team-mate Nico Rosberg in all four races so far after returning to F1 after a three-year retirement.

"After Monaco we'll know how his form really is," Webber told BBC Sport.

"He knows he's not going to just jump back in and start blowing people away. He knows he was going to have to get used to it. He's not that naive."

Schumacher begins the European leg of the 19-race season at the Spanish Grand Prix in Barcelona on 9 May with an upgraded car in an attempt to get him on level terms with Rosberg, who is second in the drivers' championship.

Mercedes have introduced aerodynamic upgrades, fitted the chassis Schumacher used during pre-season testing and lengthened the wheelbase to improve weight distribution.

[]

[] Monaco is the sort of place where you just plug Michael in and off he goes. If he's not going to be doing that this year, you can say he might be having problems coming to grips with the car []

Mark Webber

Schumacher has won the Spanish race six times and Monaco five times, and Webber believes that the German legend's feel for the Princpality's street track will give him a chance to demonstrate his full potential.

"He'll feel a bit more at home at Barcelona and Monaco," Webber said.

"They're the sort of places, particularly Monaco, where you just plug Michael in and off he goes.

"If he's not going to be doing that this year, you can say he might be having problems coming to grips with the car.

"These cars change every two or three weeks let alone every four years, so he's coming back to such a totally different environment.

"The cars are totally different, the tyres, the aerodynamics, all of which he's had to get used to.

"He's going to have to work at it - and that's what he's doing right now.

"But as I always said, you have to take your hat off to him, it was a very brave call to come back and test himself again at the highest level. He's an incredible competitor and he always has been."

#1411 sephiroth

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 22:42

The point of my interest is the fact that it is a national French order, and so it´s curious how a German national gets it.


Because he is the greatest F1 driver ever. Its not really surprising. The french like their motorsport and Schumacher is far far ahead of every one else. And because Schumacher's greatness transcends nationalities.

#1412 bourbon

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 22:51

Webber has to be running out of hats by now... His interviews all sound fake and posed anymore when it comes to discussing the situations of others. That's 3 hats so far - for his teammates success, Raikkonen in Rally and Schumi for mounting himself in an F1. What I think is that he just wants to sit himself firmly on the fence of I told you so - thus, whatever happens, he comes out looking like a wise man. Like we all don't know that Schumi has skills and can pull it out eventually, like we all don't know that if his car isn't up to par, he'll be impeded. I guess the news papers need stories and F1 needs the press, so we get these low info stories all the time. I think the truth is that Mikey needs an adjustment period and I hope he has changed and doesn't actually return to old form - but rather evolves into a new and better form that I can admire this round. But I do still have faith in the dude's eventual come on - it is just a matter of time, doesn't matter how long that is. Heute, Morgen, nächste Woche, im nächsten Monat, folgende Jahreszeit... or whenever...lol

Edited by bourbon, 30 April 2010 - 22:52.


#1413 aditya-now

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 23:05

so true.

what exactly is your problem? (besides the above?)


Apart from the fact that yours is no answer, the question remains: has Alain Prost received the honor?
How come a German national receives a French national honor?
(I imagine Schumacher becoming Sir Michael Schumacher by the Queen....would that be possible?)
Does Jean Todt play a role in it?

In Austria such honors or medals are only given to Austrian nationals and not foreigners.
Maybe France wants to give a good example in terms of Europe and the French/German friendship.

Please, just in case anyone has a real answer.

#1414 Schuting Star

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 23:09

Please, just in case anyone has a real answer.

Have you actually tried google, or do you expect us to do it for you?

#1415 Mandzipop

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 23:14

I've got to say I'm in a wierd position about this. I startes out supporting Irvine in 1999. I absolutely hated Schumacher. After his accident I saw an interview with him, and I thought he is a much nicer bloke than Irvine. So I started to support him. I was not a happy bunny if he didn't win. In my bedroom everything is Schumacher/Ferrari. When he retired, I had nowhere to go. I'd supported him for 6 and a half years. As he was still with Ferrari my allegience stayed with Ferrari (I now start to apologise for spelling as I am pished). I support any Ferrari driver. However I want Michael to do well. In fact I want him to win another WDC. I want him to prove that he really is the best driver ever. I want to know that Ferrari had the best driver ever.

I am very pished.

#1416 Yorkie

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 23:35

I've got to say I'm in a wierd position about this. I startes out supporting Irvine in 1999. I absolutely hated Schumacher. After his accident I saw an interview with him, and I thought he is a much nicer bloke than Irvine. So I started to support him. I was not a happy bunny if he didn't win. In my bedroom everything is Schumacher/Ferrari. When he retired, I had nowhere to go. I'd supported him for 6 and a half years. As he was still with Ferrari my allegience stayed with Ferrari (I now start to apologise for spelling as I am pished). I support any Ferrari driver. However I want Michael to do well. In fact I want him to win another WDC. I want him to prove that he really is the best driver ever. I want to know that Ferrari had the best driver ever.

I am very pished.

You did ok :lol:

#1417 Nitropower

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 23:54

Who knows how good. Very good? Of course. But he certainly had the best car/team most of the time and that's something very difficult to find.

#1418 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 00:00

Apart from the fact that yours is no answer, the question remains: has Alain Prost received the honor?
How come a German national receives a French national honor?
(I imagine Schumacher becoming Sir Michael Schumacher by the Queen....would that be possible?)
Does Jean Todt play a role in it?

In Austria such honors or medals are only given to Austrian nationals and not foreigners.
Maybe France wants to give a good example in terms of Europe and the French/German friendship.

Please, just in case anyone has a real answer.


Mate the list is much longer than the one below. Instead of stirring up bs, and asking really dumb questions, try reading, maybe it will lift the fog in your skull a little bit. do you have any more questions???

* 1964

* Hicri Fişek (Turkey), professor of international Law, received Chevalier 1964; Officier 1975.

* 1984

* Akira Kurosawa (Japan), Japanese film director, film producer, and screenwriter, awarded in 1984.

* 1987

* Rand Araskog (U.S.), American executive.[9]
* Satyajit Ray (India), President François Mitterrand went to Calcutta to give the award to Indian film director.

* 1990

* Erik Reitzel (Denmark), a Danish engineer and professor of structural design, received Chevalier.
* Sir Anerood Jugnauth (Mauritius), awarded Grand Officier as Prime Minister.

* 1995

* Sivaji Ganesan (India), a legendary Tamil film actor, received the title of Chevalier.

* 1996

* Richard Jenrette (U.S) investment banker.[10]
* Ross Steele (Australia), author and academic, received the title of Chevalier.[11][12]

* 1997

* Pete Goss (U.K), MBE, yachtsman who rescued fellow competitor Raphael Dinelli in the 1996 Vendée Globe sailing race.
* Pedro Almodóvar (Spain), spanish film director, who received two Oscar's, in 1999 (All about my mother) and 2001 (Talk to her).

* 1999

* Shaji N. Karun (India), an film director and cinematographer.

* 2000

* Péter Medgyessy (Hungary), Prime Minister of Hungary.
* Julia Child (U.S.), introduced French cuisine and cooking to 'mainstream Americans' 1960s, Cordon-Bleu Chef, cookbooks author, and media personality-celebrity.
* Ravi Shankar (India), composer, musician, Sitar maestro, artist.

* 2001

* Quincy Jones (U.S.), the American record producer and musician.[13]
* Toomas Hendrik Ilves, president of Estonia, Commander of the Légion d'Honneur.

* 2002

* Joe Walsh (Ireland), former Irish Minister for Agriculture and Food, received the Grand Cross.

* 2003

* Indian film director Adoor Gopalakrishnan.
* Guadalupe Loaeza, a Mexican writer.[14]
* Dame Shirley Bassey, Welsh singer.

* 2004

* Alice Schwarzer, a German feminist was made Knight.

* 2005

* Robert Parker (U.S.), the American pre-eminent wine critic, received the title of Officier.
* E. Sreedharan Indian Technocrat known for Konkan Rail and Delhi Metro Rail Projects.
* Franco Venturini, Italian journalist and expert in international politics.

* 2006

* Valentino Garavani (Italy),'Valentino,' the Italian fashion designer.
* Vladimir Putin (Russia), former President of Russian Federation.[15]
* R.K. Pachauri, international Environmentalist.
* Lt. Col. Herbert E. Carter (U.S.), Tuskegee Airman, for his outstanding service during the liberation of France during World War II; presented by former French President Jacques Chirac.[16]

Edited by Szoelloe, 01 May 2010 - 00:01.


#1419 aditya-now

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 00:07

Have you actually tried google, or do you expect us to do it for you?



I did actually google it, but didn´t find that list.


Mate the list is much longer than the one below. Instead of stirring up bs, and asking really dumb questions, try reading, maybe it will lift the fog in your skull a little bit. do you have any more questions???

* 1964

* Hicri Fişek (Turkey), professor of international Law, received Chevalier 1964; Officier 1975.
.
.
.
* 2004

* Alice Schwarzer, a German feminist was made Knight.

* 2005

* Robert Parker (U.S.), the American pre-eminent wine critic, received the title of Officier.
* E. Sreedharan Indian Technocrat known for Konkan Rail and Delhi Metro Rail Projects.
* Franco Venturini, Italian journalist and expert in international politics.

* 2006

* Valentino Garavani (Italy),'Valentino,' the Italian fashion designer.
* Vladimir Putin (Russia), former President of Russian Federation.[15]
* R.K. Pachauri, international Environmentalist.
* Lt. Col. Herbert E. Carter (U.S.), Tuskegee Airman, for his outstanding service during the liberation of France during World War II; presented by former French President Jacques Chirac.[16]


Wow, thanks a lot. I didn´t find that.
So they do give out honors to non-French nationals.
:up:

Also, thanks to you guys, I found now also the Alain Prost infos: he is at once OBE and Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur:

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Alain_Prost

That means, that Michael Schumacher could very well receive the OBE as well, I was not aware of the fact that it goes to foreign nationals.
Please forgive my genuine ignorance about this.

Edited by aditya-now, 01 May 2010 - 00:14.


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#1420 Muz Bee

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 06:27

what i'm saying is that i'm interested in the point you raised and would like to read more about it than vague 2nd hands comments. if you have any sources to back your point of view up then i would like to see them myself. i was there in the hill vs schumacher era and never encountered MS dissing Hill.

there's a disturbing habit on this forum going on where people present assumption as facts. i want facts, not opinions of some random sideline figure. that's why i'm asking for sources. without sources a post like the above has about zero credibility.

quotes like this just don't disappear in thin air and should be easy enough to track down.

i repeat: quotes please. or some kind of hard proof. don't just waste everybody's time on this forum.

I agree that quotes can clear up an issue one way or the other but in many cases they won't convince the hardened fan or even be capable of telling the whole picture. But I think the issue (Michael's statesmanship or not) is spurious, ridiculous even. For that matter there's a rather distinct lack of humility on modern F1 grids. In absence of a ready quote to nail Schumacher to the accusation, how about his behaviour when Coulthard collided with the rear of Michael's Ferrari in the rain and fog at Spa. If I have to produce a quote I will pass and say "if you can't remember the incident and it's ugly aftermath you aren't qualified to say Michael always behaves like a gentleman" or whatever else you were trying to convey.

We got off topic by defending Sir Stirling against some particularly vicious attacks, suffice to say SM could only be disqualified from making comments because he drove in an era when honour was paramount and endangering a competitor usually had dire results. I think we ought to excuse him for finding the actions of Michael and a few other drivers of today as unacceptable. Personally I do too but I can separate it into it's own box and also judge a driver on his merits of speed, overtaking and tactical savvy. Michael is clearly one of a few drivers at a tremendously high level, certainly not out in a universe of his own. We have recently totally debunked the proposition that Michael is unequalled at driving around a car's deficiencies.


#1421 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 06:39

* 2004

* Alice Schwarzer, a German feminist was made Knight.


Eh is that coz she is a feminist she got that? :confused: I bet she is good at knight :lol:

Anyway yea nice to see MS in the past, I was watching season reviews to pass the time and yea great seeing action packed races with cars that were better than now, sure only this century made cars, but still, sure better than current crop of cars. Was good to see him n Ferrari winning titles again. :)

#1422 JimmyStew

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:21

thanks a lot for taking the effort of posting this. interesting article!

Agreed - it's a marvellous insight into a vanished world...

#1423 JimmyStew

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:22

you do realise that you sound rather ridiculous, don't you?

You do realise you sound rather patronising and pompous, don't you? :)

Edited by JimmyStew, 01 May 2010 - 07:23.


#1424 JimmyStew

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:28

Firts sutil now webber. What would these CURRENT DRIVERS know



Red Bull's Mark Webber says Michael Schumacher's return should not be judged until after the next two races.

Schumacher, 41, has been off the pace of Mercedes team-mate Nico Rosberg in all four races so far after returning to F1 after a three-year retirement.

"After Monaco we'll know how his form really is," Webber told BBC Sport.

"He knows he's not going to just jump back in and start blowing people away. He knows he was going to have to get used to it. He's not that naive."

Schumacher begins the European leg of the 19-race season at the Spanish Grand Prix in Barcelona on 9 May with an upgraded car in an attempt to get him on level terms with Rosberg, who is second in the drivers' championship.

Mercedes have introduced aerodynamic upgrades, fitted the chassis Schumacher used during pre-season testing and lengthened the wheelbase to improve weight distribution.
[]

[] Monaco is the sort of place where you just plug Michael in and off he goes. If he's not going to be doing that this year, you can say he might be having problems coming to grips with the car []

Mark Webber

Schumacher has won the Spanish race six times and Monaco five times, and Webber believes that the German legend's feel for the Princpality's street track will give him a chance to demonstrate his full potential.

"He'll feel a bit more at home at Barcelona and Monaco," Webber said.

"They're the sort of places, particularly Monaco, where you just plug Michael in and off he goes.

"If he's not going to be doing that this year, you can say he might be having problems coming to grips with the car.

"These cars change every two or three weeks let alone every four years, so he's coming back to such a totally different environment.

"The cars are totally different, the tyres, the aerodynamics, all of which he's had to get used to.

"He's going to have to work at it - and that's what he's doing right now.

"But as I always said, you have to take your hat off to him, it was a very brave call to come back and test himself again at the highest level. He's an incredible competitor and he always has been."

Hats off to Webber - a man among boys. What grace and generosity of spirit: not characteristics usually associated with your contemporary grand prix driver.



#1425 Rainking

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:29

I can´t believe that after one bad race, China, so many people are trying to
belittle everything the man has achived.
Fact is, if you look at all sessions so far he was getting
closer and closer to Nico.
Bad luck and conservative setups in qualy
seem to have hampered him don´t you think.
There is no question that Nico is doing a great job, far better
than Michael, but I think it is still way to early for the jury
of past, present and future to be out...

#1426 JimmyStew

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:32

I've got to say I'm in a wierd position about this. I startes out supporting Irvine in 1999. I absolutely hated Schumacher. After his accident I saw an interview with him, and I thought he is a much nicer bloke than Irvine. So I started to support him. I was not a happy bunny if he didn't win. In my bedroom everything is Schumacher/Ferrari. When he retired, I had nowhere to go. I'd supported him for 6 and a half years. As he was still with Ferrari my allegience stayed with Ferrari (I now start to apologise for spelling as I am pished). I support any Ferrari driver. However I want Michael to do well. In fact I want him to win another WDC. I want him to prove that he really is the best driver ever. I want to know that Ferrari had the best driver ever.

I am very pished.

Evidently!

#1427 AlainProstX

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:44

I wonder why so many people want MGP to build the car in a way, that suites (only!) Schumacher.

Rosberg is younger, faster and more consistent. He has a future in the F1. Schumachers has become old. In todays F1 experience isn`t such a huge factor compared to the reaction time of a driver. Believe it or not, a 36 year old Hamilton won`t be fast as the current 25 year old Hamilton.

Rosberg is 2nd in the WDC! It would be a mistake not to try everything possible, to make the car faster for him.

2.) Then there is the time factor. As you point out, it may happen that they will not manage to get the chassis suitable for Michael´s driving style within 2010.
If Michael manages to get to a level of driving from Barcelona or a little later onwards, a level where he was say in Australia before the starting incident with Alonso, then all will be fine and we might see Michael becoming the serial winner again as whom we have come to know him over all those years. The latest in 2011 he should be again such a winner.


Stop dreaming.

#1428 ivand911

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 07:54

If someone stop for a moment and think, he will understand that updates for Barca were result of winter testing(drivers have zero points then). This is development of the car for both drivers. Don't know why so many people continue to think that MGP is doing updates only for Michael. Nico is also very optimistic about updates. http://f1.gpupdate.n...rade-s-effects/

#1429 Muz Bee

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 08:06

I can´t believe that after one bad race, China, so many people are trying to
belittle everything the man has achived.
Fact is, if you look at all sessions so far he was getting
closer and closer to Nico.
Bad luck and conservative setups in qualy
seem to have hampered him don´t you think.
There is no question that Nico is doing a great job, far better
than Michael, but I think it is still way to early for the jury
of past, present and future to be out...

:up: Pretty fair perspective.
People often seem to have either short attention spans or long held prejudices which suit their agendas. MS still could come bouncing back with a long wheelbase Mercedes.


#1430 angst

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 10:07

I can´t believe that after one bad race, China, so many people are trying to
belittle everything the man has achived.
Fact is, if you look at all sessions so far he was getting
closer and closer to Nico.
Bad luck and conservative setups in qualy
seem to have hampered him don´t you think.
There is no question that Nico is doing a great job, far better
than Michael, but I think it is still way to early for the jury
of past, present and future to be out...


China was worse than the previous races but, he has been outclassed by his teammate. Now, it may well be that Rosberg is far, far better than his years at Williams have allowed him to show, and he is - undoubtedly - a very fast and competitive driver. But who, in the early posts regarding Schumacher's comeback, was predicting that Schumacher would have been overwhelmed by him so convincingly by this point?

I'm quite prepared for the results of the whole season to bear out what I have believed for a number of years now. Schumacher may well become a more competitive propostition. If the car is good enough he may even be in a position to win a race or two. But, while-ever tyre management is one of the predominant features of F1 he could never be the dominant factor he was in the refuelling era.

The refuelling era absolutely played to his strengths, and masked his weaknesses and, in almost any other era of F1 he would have been a very fast and exciting competitor. Perhaps only the era from the early sixties to the early seventies (when tyre technology outstripped the grip a car could produce) would he, again, have been a truly front-running driver. His driving style is reminiscent of Rindt and Peterson. Both extremely good drivers, but neither became the dominant force they were, by some, expected to become. Peterson is probably a corresponding talent - he too was referred to by his engineers in the same way that Schumacher has been. He would just drive round the problem rather than be capable of giving any helpful feedback.

Schumacher has seven WDC, that's never going to be taken away from him. But, for those that have extrapolated this to mean he is the greatest driver ever, or that he was light years ahead of his rivals at the time..... just a little perspective upon those views. The F1 regulations that came into play during his time in F1 absolutely played to his strengths and wiped out - effectively - his weaknesses.


#1431 carbonfibre

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 10:26

Schumacher has seven WDC, that's never going to be taken away from him. But, for those that have extrapolated this to mean he is the greatest driver ever, or that he was light years ahead of his rivals at the time..... just a little perspective upon those views. The F1 regulations that came into play during his time in F1 absolutely played to his strengths and wiped out - effectively - his weaknesses.

Or is it just the fact that he was in his prime back then and simply was way ahead of his rivals and got to be the greatest driver ever during those years?

Right now he is a man who is the oldest of the field, already retired three years ago and now is trying to get back into the game. Give the man some time, but nobody is going to take away what the has done. The problem is all the other drivers around him have evolved with the rules, he has been away for three years and now has to deal with cars that behave very differently to three years ago and rules that are very different compared to three years ago. And he hasn't evolved with them he got stuck three years ago.

Edited by carbonfibre, 01 May 2010 - 10:28.


#1432 iakhtar

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 11:49

we just dont know how much speed he has lost since retiring so any theory based upon his current performance is worthless

#1433 AlainProstX

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 12:32

Or is it just the fact that he was in his prime back then and simply was way ahead of his rivals and got to be the greatest driver ever during those years?



There is the tiny possibilty of Alonso, Hamilton, Kubica, Raikkonen, Rosberg and Vettel being better drivers than Hill, Villeneuve, Alesi, Berger, Häkkinen and Frentzen.


I`m not suprised with Schumachers bad result. He`s past his prime. But todays driver generation is pretty strong. IMO one of the strongest (and closest) of all time.

You guys remember the season 2005? Back then it was clear for me that atleast Alonso and Raikkonen were already better drivers then Schumacher. Now we have the year 2010 with new stars like Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg and Vettel. Just think about it. For me its no coincedence that Rosberg is faster.

#1434 Mandzipop

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 12:39

Evidently!


:blush:

#1435 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 14:25

i repeat: quotes please. or some kind of hard proof. don't just waste everybody's time on this forum.


In ref. to altercations in the past in which Schumacher was involved, and on subject how we view the man...

I do doubt that anyone has all facts, published stories of yesteryears notwithstanding. People were interviewed too soon, papers do occassionally borrowing tone and content, rather than investigating. Most of us know that Schumacher's racing life was characterised by charged atmosphere wherever he went, and where balanced assessment of the man was rare, and infrequent. Opinions of talking heads are today being considered as "historical facts". Not too long ago in late night hours I have watched Hill being interviewed about Schumacher's return, and some events of past decade came up. Interestingly enough, Hill responded differently and more carefully than initially.

It is my personal view that very few people really know what has happened on the track, and they do not see a point trying to convince anyone, as hardly anyone wants to hear the truth. Posibility also exist that some action might never be explained because of time past. Lastly, a lot of ehibits in support of facts are lost to us. I have fundamental distrust of FIA's race stewardship, nevermind their conclusions primarily because of poor investigative methodologies, and suspicion of them being suspectible to pressures from media and public opinion.

What is not lost is a man and his character. You can make your own mind who MS is, and was, and then ask yourself those questions again. Perhaps you may find, as I did, a man of honor, shy, but ruthless competitor who strive living on the edge in environment that is foreign to most of us. "Thing" do happen, and we might never understand root causes; then we may sit back in our armchairs, and our tongues whaling about effects until we sit down to laptops, and write whatever comes to mind; and here we are.

Edited by Sakae, 02 May 2010 - 19:54.


#1436 libano

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 14:38

I agree that quotes can clear up an issue one way or the other but in many cases they won't convince the hardened fan or even be capable of telling the whole picture. But I think the issue (Michael's statesmanship or not) is spurious, ridiculous even. For that matter there's a rather distinct lack of humility on modern F1 grids. In absence of a ready quote to nail Schumacher to the accusation, how about his behaviour when Coulthard collided with the rear of Michael's Ferrari in the rain and fog at Spa. If I have to produce a quote I will pass and say "if you can't remember the incident and it's ugly aftermath you aren't qualified to say Michael always behaves like a gentleman" or whatever else you were trying to convey.

We got off topic by defending Sir Stirling against some particularly vicious attacks, suffice to say SM could only be disqualified from making comments because he drove in an era when honour was paramount and endangering a competitor usually had dire results. I think we ought to excuse him for finding the actions of Michael and a few other drivers of today as unacceptable. Personally I do too but I can separate it into it's own box and also judge a driver on his merits of speed, overtaking and tactical savvy. Michael is clearly one of a few drivers at a tremendously high level, certainly not out in a universe of his own. We have recently totally debunked the proposition that Michael is unequalled at driving around a car's deficiencies.


I totally agree that MS is not and never has been a saint. but the issue of this discussion was about the willingness of certain drivers to provide badmouthing quotes about their colleagues to the press, something that eddie irvine was particularily good at. MS struck me more as a levelheaded sort of guy when it came to this. His furiously getting into the face of other drivers after an incident is a different matter, it's face to face, not backstabbing. big difference in my book. on the other hand, when you spend most of your carreer on top of things it's probably a lot easier to be gracious to others.

#1437 carbonfibre

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 15:06

There is the tiny possibilty of Alonso, Hamilton, Kubica, Raikkonen, Rosberg and Vettel being better drivers than Hill, Villeneuve, Alesi, Berger, Häkkinen and Frentzen.


I`m not suprised with Schumachers bad result. He`s past his prime. But todays driver generation is pretty strong. IMO one of the strongest (and closest) of all time.

You guys remember the season 2005? Back then it was clear for me that atleast Alonso and Raikkonen were already better drivers then Schumacher. Now we have the year 2010 with new stars like Hamilton, Kubica, Rosberg and Vettel. Just think about it. For me its no coincedence that Rosberg is faster.

Sure the current crop of drivers is a great bunch but again you need to realize that they are currently in their prime, compared to Michael who logicaly has had his best time, even back in 2005 he already was way older then the rest but still was the best. And as i said he has been out for three years which is never helpfull to keep up with a ll the changes.

People just expected way to much from him, and now with his problems with the car you need to give the man some time, im pretty sure he can turn this thing around.

His furiously getting into the face of other drivers after an incident is a different matter, it's face to face, not backstabbing. big difference in my book.

Exactly, id rather have someone telling me personally what he thinks of it then run off to the "boss" and complain. Michael did that to Alonso this year and i believe that is the right way to do it, man to man.

Edited by carbonfibre, 01 May 2010 - 15:08.


#1438 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 15:14

Yes he is very fit and only 41, heck im 37 and feel 18 lol. I just need to lose some weight lol As long as the hunger is there it should be fine. He is in a new team a brand new team and has Ross, and so it's like a great challenge, it's not like he just came into a dominant Ferrari, so is easily bored. Ah too bad that aint so though lol Good luck MS! :D

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 01 May 2010 - 15:15.


#1439 Messi10

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 15:15

I wonder why so many people want MGP to build the car in a way, that suites (only!) Schumacher.

Rosberg is younger, faster and more consistent. He has a future in the F1. Schumachers has become old. In todays F1 experience isn`t such a huge factor compared to the reaction time of a driver. Believe it or not, a 36 year old Hamilton won`t be fast as the current 25 year old Hamilton.

Rosberg is 2nd in the WDC! It would be a mistake not to try everything possible, to make the car faster for him.



Stop dreaming.


I agree with this 100%.. IF they change direction to please MS's demands, it is very likely that Rosberg would be disadvantaged. Wasn't this what Shumi always had during all of those dominant years at ferrari.. I mean, if Rubens was not 100% happy with the car while MS was, it was tough luck for Rubens and needed to adapt if he wanted to beat Shumi .. Why can't shumi do the same and adapt if he wants to beat Rosberg since he is so far ahead in the WDC and only 10 points from the leader.

Edited by Messi10, 01 May 2010 - 15:38.


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#1440 Messi10

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 15:35

Schumacher has seven WDC, that's never going to be taken away from him. But, for those that have extrapolated this to mean he is the greatest driver ever, or that he was light years ahead of his rivals at the time..... just a little perspective upon those views. The F1 regulations that came into play during his time in F1 absolutely played to his strengths and wiped out - effectively - his weaknesses.

you hit the nail in the head.. I never believed that nonsense. He had the best car/team/engineers/supportive teammate and that' basically the main reason he got all those titles in the noughties. IF his car would not have been that superior, like 05 or 09, he would only have 3 titles and a lot less wins unless he would have switched teams.
DC could have been the 01 WDC, Montoya the 2002 WDC, Kimi or Montoya the 2003 WDC and Button the 2004 WDC..
If Renault would have continue being that dominant like in 05/06 and Alonso would have never left that team, by now probably Alonso would've had 5 WDC's and a ton of wins as well since we all know he is quite the best driver at the moment to deliver with top equipment.
Shumi has a lot to thank Ferrari..

Edited by Messi10, 01 May 2010 - 15:36.


#1441 arknor

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 15:47

you hit the nail in the head.. I never believed that nonsense. He had the best car/team/engineers/supportive teammate and that' basically the main reason he got all those titles in the noughties. IF his car would not have been that superior, like 05 or 09, he would only have 3 titles and a lot less wins unless he would have switched teams.
DC could have been the 01 WDC, Montoya the 2002 WDC, Kimi or Montoya the 2003 WDC and Button the 2004 WDC..
If Renault would have continue being that dominant like in 05/06 and Alonso would have never left that team, by now probably Alonso would've had 5 WDC's and a ton of wins as well since we all know he is quite the best driver at the moment to deliver with top equipment.
Shumi has a lot to thank Ferrari..

most people wouldnt have had a wdc in XXXX year if they didnt have the best car its hardly theyre fault is it everyone would want to be in the best car if it was an option

#1442 Messi10

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 16:07

most people wouldnt have had a wdc in XXXX year if they didnt have the best car its hardly theyre fault is it everyone would want to be in the best car if it was an option

Most top drivers..
IT is really quite annoying reading posters write about how all the titles should just be credited to the driver and conveniently ignore that the car/team is the biggest contributor..

#1443 Trust

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 16:12

you hit the nail in the head.. I never believed that nonsense. He had the best car/team/engineers/supportive teammate and that' basically the main reason he got all those titles in the noughties. IF his car would not have been that superior, like 05 or 09, he would only have 3 titles and a lot less wins unless he would have switched teams.
DC could have been the 01 WDC, Montoya the 2002 WDC, Kimi or Montoya the 2003 WDC and Button the 2004 WDC..
If Renault would have continue being that dominant like in 05/06 and Alonso would have never left that team, by now probably Alonso would've had 5 WDC's and a ton of wins as well since we all know he is quite the best driver at the moment to deliver with top equipment.
Shumi has a lot to thank Ferrari..

Schumacher already proved he can deliver with top equipment he has 7 titles. You are contradicting yourself.
And how we know Alonso is the best?

Is that you Flavio? :wave:

#1444 Messi10

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 16:19

Schumacher already proved he can deliver with top equipment he has 7 titles. You are contradicting yourself.
And how we know Alonso is the best?

and where did I say Shumi cannot deliver.?. He is been a top driver all his life..and was not sacked like Kimi for lack of performance or Prost for badmouthing the team.

Edited by Messi10, 01 May 2010 - 16:20.


#1445 Trust

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 16:26

and where did I say Shumi cannot deliver.?. He is been a top driver all his life..and was not sacked like Kimi for lack of performance or Prost for badmouthing the team.

I believe Kimi agreed to leave due to Santander big money.
What does Prost have to do with Schumacher? You said, he was only best because he had the best car miles ahead of competition.

#1446 Messi10

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 16:31

I believe Kimi agreed to leave due to Santander big money.

and I belived Ferrari realized that they were paying him way to much to be a support driver to Massa..

What does Prost have to do with Schumacher? You said, he was only best because he had the best car miles ahead of competition.


I brought him up because in addition to Shumacher being a good driver he knew how to play the politics and get the team behind him to support him 100%.. Other drivers have failed to do this and they are not necessarily less talented, and that is why I guess we can credit him for maintaining that consistency with the team but at the same time he was lucky that ferrari was so dominant for so many years while at the same time teams like mclaren/williams decided to screw up at the same time.

Edited by Messi10, 01 May 2010 - 16:33.


#1447 Hollow

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 16:48

Posted Image



:lol:




#1448 Anssi

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 17:57

and I belived Ferrari realized that they were paying him way to much to be a support driver to Massa..



Well he was being an extremely good 'support driver', then, as he walked away from the partnership with more WDC trophies, including the most important one. One hell of a support driver! :cat: Surely many other teams would have wanted such a 'support driver', too :kiss:

#1449 grunge

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 19:26

I wonder why so many people want MGP to build the car in a way, that suites (only!) Schumacher

Rosberg is 2nd in the WDC! It would be a mistake not to try everything possible, to make the car faster for him.

i think thats a pretty realistic statement..a car pertaining specifically to shcumacher's liking will most probably be undrivable by rosberg whose never been known to like this much unstability.

the question that remains is who's going to be faster....schumacher in a car that suits him perfectly VS rosberg in a car that suits him..even when i do think that its schumacher who would come out quicker,how realistic would it be to to push the development completely towards his preferences.....not very realistic,if you ask me as u never know you're going to get the desired setting thru the limited development oppurtunities mid season plus you would also be making rosberg uncertain with the car and losing points in the process.

the mercedes updates planned for spain wouldnt help schumacher only as rosberg has also suffered from rear wear over the weekends.the longer wheelbase with more balanced weight distribution would help schumacher get nearer to his preferences without excessive wear problems.lets wait and see how he close he is to rosberg this time.

and yah,alain prost forever man.the ultimate race pace machine

Edited by grunge, 01 May 2010 - 21:05.


#1450 iakhtar

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 20:30

you hit the nail in the head.. I never believed that nonsense. He had the best car/team/engineers/supportive teammate and that' basically the main reason he got all those titles in the noughties. IF his car would not have been that superior, like 05 or 09, he would only have 3 titles and a lot less wins unless he would have switched teams.
DC could have been the 01 WDC, Montoya the 2002 WDC, Kimi or Montoya the 2003 WDC and Button the 2004 WDC..
If Renault would have continue being that dominant like in 05/06 and Alonso would have never left that team, by now probably Alonso would've had 5 WDC's and a ton of wins as well since we all know he is quite the best driver at the moment to deliver with top equipment.
Shumi has a lot to thank Ferrari..


MS was always a championship contender though, dominant car or not (obviously as long as the car was capable of winning races), 1996-2000 were imo him at his absolute best even though he didn't win any titles. If we go by your argument, there would be much fewer WDCs as many of them had dominant cars too.

For me, whoever wins the WDC deserves it 100% regardless of car.