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#14451 arknor

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 22:01

I am hoping that MS will be invited to extend his stay with MGP by one more year.

i thought merc already said the option is on schumachers side if he wants it

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#14452 Sakae

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 22:05

I am not sure how serious they were; not too long ago there was a lot of pressure to dump him, but things might have changed recently. I am glad that RB sticked with him as a friend.

#14453 SparkPlug

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:41

So were Red Bull in 2009. In the hunt for podiums, if not wins, from the outset. Button was nevertheless one of the most consistent drivers of the season. Point being that if you have such as massive advantage in terms of the whole package (car + tyre + reliability + balance + starts) you wouldn't need to push as hard. Cruise and collect drivers will always be more consistent while those that're driving cars off the pace will naturally need to push harder = more mistakes. Renault basically picked up from where they'd left off in 2005, while Ferrari were off the back of a dismal campaign in 05 and were still getting to grips with the Bridgestone issues, which still plagued them in 2006: remember San Marino?

There's way too many factors involved to categorize the season neatly into two halves. Performance was both circuit and tyre dependent, it was not as simple as the fairy tale stories that are usually presented on here make it out to be.

Since you say its not fair to look at the season as two halves, lets look at some statistics from 2006 :

Ferrari vs Renault :

Wins : 9 vs 8
Podiums : 10 vs 11
Top 4 finishes : 24 vs 19

Pole positions : 7 vs 7
Top 2 qualifying : 16 vs 11 (would've been 17 vs 11 since Schumacher was good enough for atleast second place)
Top 3 qualifying : 20 vs 15 (again, should actually be 21 for Ferrari considering Monaco)

Reliability related DNFs : 1 (Japan) vs 3 (Hungary, Italy for FA and Bahrain for Fisichella)

I can see that Ferrari have more wins, equal number of pole positions, almost the same number of podiums, more front row qualifying, more top 3 qualifying, less Reliability related DNFs and more top 4 finishes than Renault. From this we can actually conclude that the Ferrari was marginally better, however their qualifying issues in 2 races would mean its reasonable to peg the two teams as equal.

I dont see how you can make an outrageous claim of Renault having the 'massively better package' when every bit of information points to the contrary.
Here's where the difference lies between the two teams for 2006 and the reason why one team won both championships while the other went away empty handed :
DNFs due to driver error : 4 vs 1 (2 each for MS and FM and 1 for GF)


The flexi-wing issue was outside Michael's control, too. I don't think the penalty was justified, at the time I laughed out loud when the question of Felipe having been blocked was brought up. But what does that have to do with Renault running with an illegal, unfair and massive advantage for 11 races in an 18 race season? They cheated for the vast majority of the season and hoarded up on points, wonder how the season would've worked out had they clamped down on them early on, just as they did with Ferrari.

The Mass Dampner was on the car since 2005 IIRC. It was approved by the FIA and later banned because they later decided that it was a moveable aero device (which made it similar in function to Ferrari's flexi wings).

It was Renault's interpretation of the rules, an innovation bordering on the edge of the rules like Williams active suspension or Brawns diffuser, hardly what you call illegal and unfair. It was declared illegal after it was approved at first, very similar to the Brawn GP car of 2009 which again was more tecnical genius (and borderline) than illegal and unfair in my book.


#14454 Tardis40

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:47

I am hoping that MS will be invited to extend his stay with MGP by one more year.


Michael will have a drive for as long as he wants it.

Edited by Tardis40, 15 October 2011 - 04:47.


#14455 exmayol

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:43

There we go again... we just can't have qualifying free of troubles for few GPs in a row.

#14456 Diablobb81

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:45

Late lap, vibration. Meh



#14457 Urawa

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:45

Must have been some issues, otherwise that one single try makes no sense


#14458 ali.unal

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:47

Must have been some issues, otherwise that one single try makes no sense

BBC: 0638: Schumacher is suffering for some vibration somewhere on his Mercedes but he puts a brave face on and, with the track to himself, clambers into ninth. Vitaly Petrov in his Renault is ahead of him.

#14459 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:48

Does it mean the problem will continue during the race then?

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#14460 Urawa

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:49

ok, thanks. Hope they find a fix before the race

#14461 Sevach

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:51

I hope those vibrations are just a bad set of tires...

#14462 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 05:52

I hope those vibrations are just a bad set of tires...


Yes, it seems so. BBC just said that the tyres were unbalanced and there was vibration, which meant he only improved 0.15s with SS on.

Edited by GoRacing, 15 October 2011 - 05:53.


#14463 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:04

Well, it clearly isn't great, but here's hoping for a better race day with no accidents.

#14464 baddog

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:06

Mercedes continue to be incompetent in qualifying. 12th isnt too bad though, we shall see tomorrow.

#14465 Sof1

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:29

This is really disappointing. I got up at 6am to see this!?! Why can't MSC catch a break in quali?!?!

#14466 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:30

Just a short interview on BBC with MS. He knew straightaway when he left the pits that he had a problem with the tyres. He thought he could improve by 0.5 sec which would have taken him into Q3, but he only improved by 0.15s.

#14467 BRK

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:34

What a pity about the vibrations, I knew it was going to be a wasted effort and wasted lap the moment they came on the radio.

Long straight here, should be a good race I hope. Exciting at least. :D

I can see that Ferrari have more wins, equal number of pole positions, almost the same number of podiums, more front row qualifying, more top 3 qualifying, less Reliability related DNFs and more top 4 finishes than Renault. From this we can actually conclude that the Ferrari was marginally better, however their qualifying issues in 2 races would mean its reasonable to peg the two teams as equal.


No we can't. Why the hell would I lump Massa into the same category as Fisico? I think Massa did a much better job than Fisichella in 2006, this was the pre-2009, pre-accident Massa that was perfectly at home with grooves and wider fronts, and had the same driving style as MS. The same guy that nearly won a title, unlike Giancarlo.

Like any other F1 season, performance was dependent upon both tyres and track characteristics. At both Hungary and China Renault + Michelin was obviously the better package to have. The Michelins on the Renault were also more consistent in the races and easier to manage compared to the Bridgestones, France was a perfect example of this when the Renaults got away with a less optimal strategy. All three races were in the second part of the season where Ferrari supposedly had the better car. To neatly divide the season into two halves and say Ferrari had the better car throughout the second half is therefore rubbish. Still, I'm okay with people that think the two cars were evenly matched even though I don't agree, but definitely not with fairytales like how Ferrari had a better car in the second half and still lost. :rolleyes:

The Mass Dampner was on the car since 2005 IIRC. It was approved by the FIA and later banned because they later decided that it was a moveable aero device (which made it similar in function to Ferrari's flexi wings).

It was Renault's interpretation of the rules, an innovation bordering on the edge of the rules like Williams active suspension or Brawns diffuser, hardly what you call illegal and unfair. It was declared illegal after it was approved at first, very similar to the Brawn GP car of 2009 which again was more tecnical genius (and borderline) than illegal and unfair in my book.


I'm aware of that and I couldn't care less because it doesn't change the fact that Renault did have an unfair advantage for 11 of the 18 races. Teams do not stand still over the course of a season, having a borderline innovation at the start of a season would have been okay if the teams did not develop the technology and benefit from it further. That is the reasoning behind banning anything mid-season and that was the case with the EBDs this year. I don't give a damn what's fair or not in your book, as far as I'm concerned Renault were cheating and it was pathetic that the FIA let them get away with it for as long as they did. Unlike with Ferrari and the flexi-wings, which happened after the second race of the season.


By now I can tell you're one of those people that believes Ferrari had the better car in 2006 and no amount of reasoning is going to change that, all I can suggest is you go back and rewatch the season. Watch every practice, qualifying and race session, take note of Ferrari's issues with the tyres and inconsistency, pay attention to the post-race briefings, etc, instead of hunting up statistics over the internet. Like any other season both had their ups and downs and were better suited at some tracks rather than others, pretty naive to suggest otherwise. I'm not going to waste more time discussing 2006 with someone that thinks Ferrari had the better car that year. :wave:

#14468 dde

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:41

The ban of the mass damper didn't really affect the Renault. Just compare to the others Michelin runners.

It was just a matter of tires and I completely agry with BRK

Edited by dde, 15 October 2011 - 06:42.


#14469 zelpre

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:42

Great job Mercedes GP. Well done again

#14470 Diablobb81

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:42

Well Nico already complained yesterday that they are running low on front wings. So hopefully no stupid contacts. :p

#14471 ali.unal

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:50

There was nothing to choose between Nico Rosberg and Michael Schumacher in Q1 as they were separated by just 0.080s. Rosberg managed to go 0.5s faster on option tyres in Q2 and a futher 0.1s in Q3. So more or less there is 0.7s difference between both type of compounds. Michael improved only 0.15s on his only run in Q2. So that's not ideal. He has now 2 sets of brand new prime tyers and 2 set of brand new options tyres. I hope the vibration issue of the tyres on which he qualified and will start to race will be resolved, otherwise he could be in back foot in the first stint.

#14472 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:57

There was nothing to choose between Nico Rosberg and Michael Schumacher in Q1 as they were separated by just 0.080s. Rosberg managed to go 0.5s faster on option tyres in Q2 and a futher 0.1s in Q3. So more or less there is 0.7s difference between both type of compounds. Michael improved only 0.15s on his only run in Q2. So that's not ideal. He has now 2 sets of brand new prime tyers and 2 set of brand new options tyres. I hope the vibration issue of the tyres on which he qualified and will start to race will be resolved, otherwise he could be in back foot in the first stint.


A tenth faster and he would have made it. He should have just gone for another lap.

#14473 BRK

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:02

Don't know, he seemed to have no confidence with the car because of the vibration issue, I think that was just an attempt to do the best under the circumstances and see what came of it, probably had given up on Q3 when they learnt about the problem.

#14474 Starish

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:09

There was nothing to choose between Nico Rosberg and Michael Schumacher in Q1 as they were separated by just 0.080s. Rosberg managed to go 0.5s faster on option tyres in Q2 and a futher 0.1s in Q3. So more or less there is 0.7s difference between both type of compounds. Michael improved only 0.15s on his only run in Q2. So that's not ideal. He has now 2 sets of brand new prime tyers and 2 set of brand new options tyres. I hope the vibration issue of the tyres on which he qualified and will start to race will be resolved, otherwise he could be in back foot in the first stint.

He doesn't have to start on those tyres and the team will most likely check all the tyres tonight to be sure... or MGP should :stoned:

#14475 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:14

Syndrome of late outing(SLOw) strike again. Timo Glock on RTL said that MS made mistake in S3 somewhere.

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2011 - 07:16.


#14476 BRK

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:18

Hmm, just checked out @Onionterrors, apparently he'd give an arm, both nuts and one of his children to be in Auckland (Rugby WC?)...still nothing on the Hamilton thing, though.

#14477 ali.unal

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:26

He doesn't have to start on those tyres and the team will most likely check all the tyres tonight to be sure... or MGP should :stoned:

Yeah, sure. A brain fade on my part. Sorry :up:

#14478 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:29

Long runs of FI and Torro Rosso are very good, similar to MGP, although we don't know the fuel loads. It's going to be very difficult tomorrow, best I think we can hope is for 8th, and if lucky, beat Nico for 7th.

#14479 cheapracer

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:29

I can see Schumacher signing for one more year after 2012, but that's probably about it if I am honest since he would be 44-45


Of course one possibility is he would retire at 47 equaling Fangio in the history books.

I always had it in mind that MS would like to achieve double figures for GP wins ie; 100.


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#14480 D.M.N.

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:33

12th, while obviously disappointing, isn't disastrous - a good start should still mean a handful of points for Schumi. :up:

#14481 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:40

Long runs of FI and Torro Rosso are very good, similar to MGP, although we don't know the fuel loads. It's going to be very difficult tomorrow, best I think we can hope is for 8th, and if lucky, beat Nico for 7th.

MGP used SS in the long runs. Other team used S(like FI). Don't know about STR. But I get strange feeling that S tyres was faster in this long run. Or just MGP try to save them as much as they can.
About Qualy the right choice was : feel the vibration, at the end of out lap go to the box , change for new set of SS and go out again and do the fast lap. He have time for this. This way they will check other (used for only one lap) set and will prepare it for tomorrow. Simple.

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2011 - 07:41.


#14482 cheapracer

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:40

Mercedes continue to be incompetent in qualifying. 12th isnt too bad though, we shall see tomorrow.


Mate getting a bad tyre happens to every team and every driver through their careers and more than once. On the flip side it's gotten this bad tyre out of the way rather than having it find it's way onto the car during the race.


#14483 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:57

MGP used SS in the long runs. Other team used S(like FI). Don't know about STR. But I get strange feeling that S tyres was faster in this long run. Or just MGP try to save them as much as they can.
About Qualy the right choice was : feel the vibration, at the end of out lap go to the box , change for new set of SS and go out again and do the fast lap. He have time for this. This way they will check other (used for only one lap) set and will prepare it for tomorrow. Simple.


I agree, he had time to come back in, change tyres and go back out. Maybe he thought he would still make it with whatever time he set, he certainly seem to imply that during his BBC interview. He thought he would improve by 1/2 sec from his Q1 time, which would have been sufficient.


For the race, better option might be to start with softs and then use SS later in the race. I'm sure FI and/or Torro Rosso will do that.

Edited by GoRacing, 15 October 2011 - 08:01.


#14484 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:06

I am just pissed off for them so easily give up on Q3. No real effort, like it doesn't matter. Really it doesn't matter to much, but Q3 will be better. For us Qually finish to early, there is nothing else to watch really. It is other question that he would probably stay all Q3 in the box. Oh, well it is nothing that one rocket start can't resolve.

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2011 - 08:07.


#14485 ali.unal

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:23

I am just pissed off for them so easily give up on Q3. No real effort, like it doesn't matter. Really it doesn't matter to much, but Q3 will be better. For us Qually finish to early, there is nothing else to watch really. It is other question that he would probably stay all Q3 in the box. Oh, well it is nothing that one rocket start can't resolve.

I think it's all down to tyres and relative competitiveness of Mercedes to top teams and Renault/FI/Sauber gang. They are alone in 4th so why bother for being 7th by 0,1s or 1s. That doesn't make any difference. I agree they should at least try, but tyre situation forces them to double think and check everything strategicwise. Rosberg could have got Alonso for 6th spot, but then again 7 is better than 6, so.

On the other hand, I think it was a pretty decent qualifying for once. All top teams were on track trying to do hot laps. I enjoyed it.

#14486 FlashMaster

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:28

He just has to start on PRIMES as the options last less than 10 laps but I guess these amateurs at MGP will let him start on options.

#14487 zelpre

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:29

MGP used SS in the long runs. Other team used S(like FI). Don't know about STR. But I get strange feeling that S tyres was faster in this long run. Or just MGP try to save them as much as they can.
About Qualy the right choice was : feel the vibration, at the end of out lap go to the box , change for new set of SS and go out again and do the fast lap. He have time for this. This way they will check other (used for only one lap) set and will prepare it for tomorrow. Simple.


Yep, I don't understand it too...


For the race, better option might be to start with softs and then use SS later in the race. I'm sure FI and/or Torro Rosso will do that.


Not sure if Softs are good for the start since Michael can gain the most positions there. And also he starts on the dirty side of grid...


#14488 sharo

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:35

..............
This way they will check other (used for only one lap) set and will prepare it for tomorrow. Simple.

Tyres are not the same after one cycle of heating-cooling. There are chemical and physical processed which take place in the compound. And while with BS tyres they could condition them for the race I think this is not the case with Pirelli rubber.

#14489 Beyond

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:36

12th is bad but on this track and with many pitstops a good recover is very possible

#14490 zelpre

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:42

Rain for tomorrow's race possible? I SO HOPE FOR IT!

http://www.gpupdate....-rain-possible/

Edited by zelpre, 15 October 2011 - 08:43.


#14491 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:45

Tyres are not the same after one cycle of heating-cooling. There are chemical and physical processed which take place in the compound. And while with BS tyres they could condition them for the race I think this is not the case with Pirelli rubber.

Last race in Suzuka MS said , I have one almost new set(two laps old). So, I guess 1 lap old is even better. In the race will not matter so much as in Qualy how old is the tyre. And the tyres already have this one cycle of heating-cooling with putting them in heating blankets? They put heated tyres on the car(around 100 degree) from the car they put them in heating blankets and I think they stay there until they use them in the race, heated all the time? Or they are not heated after Qualy to the next day before race start? So, even like that they made one cycle of heating-cooling , without going into the car.

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2011 - 08:48.


#14492 sharo

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:49

Surface temperatures (at least, don't know about internal t) get higher than 100oC to the point of rubber actually melting. This makes difference.
Michael probably had in mind the contact surface rubber thickness, as the Pirellis lose a lot of material every lap.


#14493 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:53

Rain for tomorrow's race possible? I SO HOPE FOR IT!

http://www.gpupdate....-rain-possible/


Sorry to disappoint you, but that forecast is from last year!

#14494 GoRacing

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:56

Yep, I don't understand it too...



Not sure if Softs are good for the start since Michael can gain the most positions there. And also he starts on the dirty side of grid...


Ross mentioned that they debated changing tyres, but I guess it was MS' call from what we heard via Team Radio, he seemed to say "I'll do it anyway".

Edited by GoRacing, 15 October 2011 - 08:56.


#14495 zelpre

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:01

Sorry to disappoint you, but that forecast is from last year!


Oh -.-

#14496 cheapracer

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:20

Sorry to disappoint you, but that forecast is from last year!


No rain expected at the track.





#14497 Massa_f1

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:33

This is really disappointing. I got up at 6am to see this!?! Why can't MSC catch a break in quali?!?!



Yea me to. As soon as Q2 ended i was back in bed though. Disappointing.

#14498 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:38

Yea me to. As soon as Q2 ended i was back in bed though. Disappointing.

The whole season is disappointing. Two seconds slower than McLaren? How retarded this team have to be? MGP is slightly better than LRGP, FI, Sauber.

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2011 - 09:39.


#14499 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:44

2 seconds slower than Mclaren here but running them very close at another fast track just 3 races ago....

Hopefully the DRS will work well for both drivers tomorrow, it should do they have enough opportunities to use it.

Edited by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, 15 October 2011 - 09:45.


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#14500 ivand911

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:48

2 seconds slower than Mclaren here but running them very close at another fast track just 3 races ago....

Hopefully the DRS will work well for both drivers tomorrow, it should do they have enough opportunities to use it.

Yeah, one second slower at Monza. If Nico start well he will probably never use DRS(faster car will run away), MS will use it more.

Edited by ivand911, 15 October 2011 - 09:50.