Jump to content


Photo

Michael Schumacher (merged)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
20770 replies to this topic

#14751 arknor

arknor
  • Member

  • 2,298 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 18 October 2011 - 22:47

Schumacher lost his reflex abilities when he dropped from that scooter or what was it, ... that Motorcycle. Remember?

He get's sick from the simulator (the rest of the field simply doesn't) and then also; he lost his Menace of a manager, who helped him inside the pits usually to do those nasty unfair things so now and then.

He has a woman as manager, and this is what you get; and old-out-burned-German wanna be-fast-as-ever driver. In a Mercedes, and you know that the Germans were singing about Schumacher in a Mercedes since what? I believe since before the year 2000. It's a German wet dream, but no one is comming.

they could fix his simulation sickness so easy if they bothering to look into why some FPS games give gamers the same thing  ;)

"dead island" and "rage" are good examples

Advertisement

#14752 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,792 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 18 October 2011 - 23:09

So logically the next one to be discarded is Kimi Raikkonen as he also gets sick in a simulator.

#14753 rm111

rm111
  • Member

  • 406 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 19 October 2011 - 06:05

So does button aparently.

#14754 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:21

I am sure many people don't get sick in simulator, but they can't drive F1 car also.
Lets not bring Bruno Senna as expert here, because he is feeling forces very well with his body, this is why his results are so tragic.

Edited by ivand911, 19 October 2011 - 07:32.


#14755 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:23

He has a woman as manager, and this is what you get; and old-out-burned-German wanna be-fast-as-ever driver.


From Jos's website; "Max Verstappen from front row to disappointment"..

Looks like son is taking after father and how is Jos these days, staying out of jail still?


#14756 Juan Kerr

Juan Kerr
  • Member

  • 2,888 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 19 October 2011 - 07:34

Coulpe of things here:

Don't criticise games/simulators because they're already half way to becoming extremely accurate and those who don't like them had better start liking them because at this rate they're gonna be more accurate than reality !

My other point is, as usual all I can see in this thread and this forum is a bunch of kids arguing for the sake of arguing 'my dad's better than your dad...' and its totally pathetic, I cant believe none of you have noticed how pathetic you all sound.

Quit it FFS!! I keep having to remind myself every time I think 'why doesn't someone ban forums?' that its not the forums its the retarded morons that use them that's the problem.

#14757 KiloWatt

KiloWatt
  • Member

  • 1,264 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 19 October 2011 - 08:58

Coulpe of things here:

Don't criticise games/simulators because they're already half way to becoming extremely accurate and those who don't like them had better start liking them because at this rate they're gonna be more accurate than reality !

My other point is, as usual all I can see in this thread and this forum is a bunch of kids arguing for the sake of arguing 'my dad's better than your dad...' and its totally pathetic, I cant believe none of you have noticed how pathetic you all sound.

Quit it FFS!! I keep having to remind myself every time I think 'why doesn't someone ban forums?' that its not the forums its the retarded morons that use them that's the problem.


Carefull now...

#14758 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,792 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 19 October 2011 - 09:03

Coulpe of things here:

Don't criticise games/simulators because they're already half way to becoming extremely accurate and those who don't like them had better start liking them because at this rate they're gonna be more accurate than reality !


In fact my impression is the opposite - they make the cars to correspond to the simulator.
And I will always prefer half an hour in a real kart on a real track than two hours in front of a computer screen no matter how good the simulator is.
But I guess I am still just a kid over 50 :rotfl:

#14759 BRK

BRK
  • Member

  • 3,653 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 19 October 2011 - 10:24

From Jos's website; "Max Verstappen from front row to disappointment"..

Looks like son is taking after father and how is Jos these days, staying out of jail still?


:lol: :up:

Advertisement

#14760 arknor

arknor
  • Member

  • 2,298 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 19 October 2011 - 14:41

Coulpe of things here:

Don't criticise games/simulators because they're already half way to becoming extremely accurate and those who don't like them had better start liking them because at this rate they're gonna be more accurate than reality !

My other point is, as usual all I can see in this thread and this forum is a bunch of kids arguing for the sake of arguing 'my dad's better than your dad...' and its totally pathetic, I cant believe none of you have noticed how pathetic you all sound.

Quit it FFS!! I keep having to remind myself every time I think 'why doesn't someone ban forums?' that its not the forums its the retarded morons that use them that's the problem.

how can a simulation of real life be more accurate than real life? where decades from proper realistic physics in computer games aswell.... all the sims do at the moment is convincingly fake physics

#14761 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 19 October 2011 - 14:53

Schumacher lost his reflex abilities when he dropped from that scooter or what was it, ... that Motorcycle. Remember?

He get's sick from the simulator (the rest of the field simply doesn't) and then also; he lost his Menace of a manager, who helped him inside the pits usually to do those nasty unfair things so now and then.

He has a woman as manager, and this is what you get; and old-out-burned-German wanna be-fast-as-ever driver. In a Mercedes, and you know that the Germans were singing about Schumacher in a Mercedes since what? I believe since before the year 2000. It's a German wet dream, but no one is comming.


Oh Franz, still at it..?

#14762 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 12,131 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 19 October 2011 - 14:59

It's a German wet dream, but no one is comming.


:rotfl:

#14763 T-Mobile

T-Mobile
  • Member

  • 665 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 19 October 2011 - 15:04

It's amazing how many pages the Schumacher and F150 threads get, then you look at the thread for the championship winning RB7 and its only on page 37. Yes, we all know with age people slow down. Does anybody have any evidence that even remotely justifies debating Schumacher's lack of reactions? Having said that, I am sure we can find other things to discuss.

As for simulations, if some people here attempted even basic Newtonian physics they would begin to realize how complex a simulation would have to be in order to be "accurate." There is obviously approximations and heuristics all over the place. They are a tool, not a substitute for the real thing (as some find out the hard way.)

#14764 Kubiccia

Kubiccia
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 October 2011 - 15:38

Physical reaction times are not, and never have been, important in racing drivers.

:lol:
Do you realise how idiotic that sounds after I have posted a real F1 driver claiming that reflexes are essential in real driving?

Lets not bring Bruno Senna as expert here, because he is feeling forces very well with his body, this is why his results are so tragic.

Ivan, I didn't expect to read such stuff from you :|
Bruno did great in almost all qualifyings and very well on Singapore's and Monza's race. But that is irrelevant. He is the one, BETTER THAN ANY OF US, to know what is required to drive a real car which is exposed to real forces.

Coulpe of things here:

Don't criticise games/simulators because they're already half way to becoming extremely accurate and those who don't like them had better start liking them because at this rate they're gonna be more accurate than reality !

My other point is, as usual all I can see in this thread and this forum is a bunch of kids arguing for the sake of arguing 'my dad's better than your dad...' and its totally pathetic, I cant believe none of you have noticed how pathetic you all sound.

Quit it FFS!! I keep having to remind myself every time I think 'why doesn't someone ban forums?' that its not the forums its the retarded morons that use them that's the problem.

and we are the retarded kids? (Buttoneer, I didn't name call him)

It's amazing how many pages the Schumacher and F150 threads get, then you look at the thread for the championship winning RB7 and its only on page 37. Yes, we all know with age people slow down. Does anybody have any evidence that even remotely justifies debating Schumacher's lack of reactions? Having said that, I am sure we can find other things to discuss.

As for simulations, if some people here attempted even basic Newtonian physics they would begin to realize how complex a simulation would have to be in order to be "accurate." There is obviously approximations and heuristics all over the place. They are a tool, not a substitute for the real thing (as some find out the hard way.)

Finally somebody with common sense. And I agree with you about everything about what simulation is.

#14765 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 19 October 2011 - 16:36

It's amazing how many pages the Schumacher and F150 threads get, then you look at the thread for the championship winning RB7 and its only on page 37. Yes, we all know with age people slow down. Does anybody have any evidence that even remotely justifies debating Schumacher's lack of reactions? Having said that, I am sure we can find other things to discuss.

As for simulations, if some people here attempted even basic Newtonian physics they would begin to realize how complex a simulation would have to be in order to be "accurate." There is obviously approximations and heuristics all over the place. They are a tool, not a substitute for the real thing (as some find out the hard way.)


Which is why we need more on track testing before, and during a season. I am beating this drum for very long time. (Actually since morning after testing was reduced). Benefit for the fan as I see it would be in enjoyment of full season racing, and not full season less first six races devoting debugging the car. Moreover, we would spared by seeing one team running away from the pack just because they had right car from the race one.

Edited by Sakae, 19 October 2011 - 16:37.


#14766 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,958 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 19 October 2011 - 17:00

As for simulations, if some people here attempted even basic Newtonian physics they would begin to realize how complex a simulation would have to be in order to be "accurate." There is obviously approximations and heuristics all over the place. They are a tool, not a substitute for the real thing (as some find out the hard way.)


I beg to differ on this one. Mc's sim is very-very close to reality, Merc has built a similar, or even more advanced one, Ferrari has started to build I think something like it already. Merc has said it is (acording to the deadlines set) approx 2 years to set it up to full functionality. So I wouldn't be so quick on burying the sim on the bases of "complexity", they can test virtually anything now in a simulator so advanced, from tyre wear to new parts aero efficiency. I know it is still a simulation, which is as good as the data pre-entered, so it is still a sim, but there is more to it by far than what you implied. Maybe four years ago what you said would be true, not any more.

#14767 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,792 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 19 October 2011 - 19:18

The very word "simulator" says it all. The rest is just the delusion of the gamers' generation. And the reason young people to drive on the streets like immortals, often killing not only themselves but innocent people.

This however has nothing to do with the real Michael Schumacher and this thread also.
Those having eyes and brains can see that he is coming back to form and is comparable to the younger front runners. More than 20 laps under Hamilton's pressure should tell you something. It was a mere coincidence that both cars' setups nullified the vast advantage of the Mac and we could see him defend and fight on almost equal terms.

Of course, age has its influence. I am 12 years older than him and I should know better. But human body and brain accommodate and compensate one thing with another, not to mention experience and maintaining fitness at the level of a younger man.

Edited by sharo, 19 October 2011 - 19:18.


#14768 T-Mobile

T-Mobile
  • Member

  • 665 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 19 October 2011 - 19:36

Ahh, it's always refreshing when sane comments surface on the forums. This year I really don't think there has been much to differentiate Nico and Michael's performances. It seems to sway a bit. However, it should become more clear if and when they get a competitive car.

Really, how exciting would next year be in Michael won one of the early races? You don't have to like the guy to know that we would be in for a treat.

#14769 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,555 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 19 October 2011 - 20:33

That isnt quite true.
Lap 14 was SC and everyoney stopped - and because Massa was in P1, MSC had to wait in the pit right behind him at the stop.
This loss of time gave Alonso P2.

I'll go into your post later on but for now I want to say:

First thing is true. Second thing is not. Ferrari sent Schumacher on his way with more fuel to stay out longer in the second stint. MSC was out on track going faster than Alonso, but went off, after that he didn't have enough laps to stretch the gap out enough. He pitted, came out third, and stayed there.

#14770 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 24,024 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 19 October 2011 - 20:39

:lol:
Do you realise how idiotic that sounds after I have posted a real F1 driver claiming that reflexes are essential in real driving?

Bruno is not even saying differing reaction times from drivers are relevant, he is saying that vision-only feedback, the lack of all the physical cues you have in a car, lead to slower response. That's not a matter of physical reaction times at all, its a matter of completeness of input. You are arguing aggressively and vigorously (not to say insultingly), all on the basis of your inability to read for comprehension. Might want to reconsider.

#14771 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,555 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 19 October 2011 - 20:48

Alonso had a more consistent car, which was always fighting at the top, apart from one occasion (in Germany, due to the loss of the mass dampener). If it wasn't the fastest car, then it was on par or behind the Ferrari, which means Alonso could settle for 2nd when needed. Schumacher couldn't afford that, because: (1) He was already on the back foot right from the start of the season due to the loss of competitiveness of Ferrari in Malaysia and Australia (2) Therefore he had to take more risks to catch-up (3) When it was raining, Ferrari was nowhere compared to the teams which were all on Michelins, so Schumacher was more exposed, and was bound to lose even more points then.

Would have been interesting to see if the roles were reverted, had Schumacher been in the Renault and Alonso in the Ferrari. I'm not sure Alonso would have taken the same conservative approach again. It's always easier when you have a sizeable lead in the championship standings and have a consistent car enough to finish either 1st or 2nd.

A bit of his massive pursuit is also to be found in the points regulations... Up til 2002 they went for 10-6-4-3-2-1. After that year: 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. It became massively more difficult with two reasonably even cars to close up a gap, only with a massive DNF streak it was to be closed. With Massa as a rookie, MSC was f'ed from the beginning. Not that I'm a Massa hater but it turned out in hindsight to be the wrong choice because his learning curve was too steep. That's the difference, at pure speed Massa at 2 or 3 races was able to match or be better than Schumacher (f.e. Germany and also the USA GP was really close) but not in highperformance consistency. Schumacher was always up there because of experience, Massa wasn't. Simply because it was his first season. Advantage Alonso.

#14772 Kubiccia

Kubiccia
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 19 October 2011 - 21:03

Bruno is not even saying differing reaction times from drivers are relevant, he is saying that vision-only feedback, the lack of all the physical cues you have in a car, lead to slower response. That's not a matter of physical reaction times at all, its a matter of completeness of input. You are arguing aggressively and vigorously (not to say insultingly), all on the basis of your inability to read for comprehension. Might want to reconsider.

sorry if I sounded "agressive" to you. I give up discussing it with you, though. I did understood what Bruno said, he highlighed how body reaction is faster than visual's, and that's how they respond to the cars handling, meaning it is extremely important.

Just think for a little about your last post to see how it contradicts Senna's claim.;)

PS: I'm already tired of this reaction time discussion, though.

Edited by Kubiccia, 19 October 2011 - 21:07.


#14773 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,129 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 19 October 2011 - 23:52

A bit of his massive pursuit is also to be found in the points regulations... Up til 2002 they went for 10-6-4-3-2-1. After that year: 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. It became massively more difficult with two reasonably even cars to close up a gap, only with a massive DNF streak it was to be closed. With Massa as a rookie, MSC was f'ed from the beginning. Not that I'm a Massa hater but it turned out in hindsight to be the wrong choice because his learning curve was too steep. That's the difference, at pure speed Massa at 2 or 3 races was able to match or be better than Schumacher (f.e. Germany and also the USA GP was really close) but not in highperformance consistency. Schumacher was always up there because of experience, Massa wasn't. Simply because it was his first season. Advantage Alonso.


Massa was not a rookie when he was paired with MSC.

#14774 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 24,024 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 20 October 2011 - 00:20

sorry if I sounded "agressive" to you. I give up discussing it with you, though. I did understood what Bruno said, he highlighed how body reaction is faster than visual's, and that's how they respond to the cars handling, meaning it is extremely important.

Just think for a little about your last post to see how it contradicts Senna's claim.;)

PS: I'm already tired of this reaction time discussion, though.

We all are. You are however misinterpreting the lad to support your point and that's not on.


#14775 arknor

arknor
  • Member

  • 2,298 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:36

I beg to differ on this one. Mc's sim is very-very close to reality, Merc has built a similar, or even more advanced one, Ferrari has started to build I think something like it already. Merc has said it is (acording to the deadlines set) approx 2 years to set it up to full functionality. So I wouldn't be so quick on burying the sim on the bases of "complexity", they can test virtually anything now in a simulator so advanced, from tyre wear to new parts aero efficiency. I know it is still a simulation, which is as good as the data pre-entered, so it is still a sim, but there is more to it by far than what you implied. Maybe four years ago what you said would be true, not any more.

merc can test new upgrades for aerodynamic efficenty on their simulator in real time? then explain why CFD takes so long?

its not possible to simulate full physics in real time only really basic fake physics, computers arent anywhere near powerful to simulate our understanding of physics in real time and they wont be for a very very long time
you cant simulate wind ,temprature , aerodynamics or anything else in real time either.

you cant just add a new front wing design into a simulator and expect to get real results like you would in a wind tunnel or on a trac

Edited by arknor, 20 October 2011 - 01:39.


#14776 hero

hero
  • Member

  • 99 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 05:38

:|

It's well-known that Massa ha a driving style similar to that of Schumacher and prefers a car that has more grip at the front and is more pointy. 'Proof' of this (for the sake of a cheap revisionist, that is) is to be found with his remarks when Bridgestone shifted to narrower front tyres for 2010, offering less grip at the front and favouring drivers that liked their cars a bit more understeery:

From 2009 -

http://www.formula1....009/5/9414.html



On 2010 -

http://www.formula1....9/11/10216.html



To link that with Massa's preferences:

http://www.totalf1.c..._driving_style/

http://www.ferrari.c...sa/default.aspx



http://www.f1technical.net/news/15875

http://www.independe...in-2039883.html



Going solely by the 'facts' dug up on the internet (as opposed to actually having watched the damned season and followed every move) it's plainly obvious pre-2010 cars had more grip at the front, favoured Massa's driving style, and therefore Massa was comfortable with the nature of the tyres in 2006. Not to mention Schumacher's own driving style (which I hope is beyond this ridiculous 'debate') meant he preferred a pointy car as well. Massa was thus comfortable with the F248, unlike with later cars and regs.


Its strange that during his time with Kimi, Massa was the one who could handle understeer, and Kimi was the one complaining of understeer because the car could not heat the front tyres enough. Sort of contradictory, and I notice to failed to include 2011 when Massa has publically stated the tyres suit him, yet his performance relative to Alonso has not changed, which indicates he is just making excuses like all drivers do. Another funny thing, is that if the pre 2010 tyres suited Massa so much, why did Fisichella dominate him as team mates in 2004?


OTOH Fisichella and his teammate had different driving styles. All I can find now is this:

http://www.totalf1.c...s-i-fisichella/

Fisichella was therefore less comfortable with the R26 than Massa was with the F248, that I think is a reasonable conclusion.


I'd have thought things like this should go without saying and would have been obvious to someone that has followed the sport closely for a while but there you go.

Score 1 to the revisionists - 0 to common sense and knowledge, I'll give you that. Congrats on dragging someone that absolutely detests revisionists with their agendas to their level.

"Man landed on the moon in 69"
"Proof?"
"It was on the radio, TV, in the news, everywhere! Anybody that was alive back then would've known!"
"Proof? Link? Is it on Wikipedia or Youtube"

:rolleyes:


You have serious audacity to accuse others of being revisionists and having an agenda when you ignore Fisichella's own words, when he explicitly states he was very comfortable with the R26, and try using a random person on a forum as your evidence. Its amazing you think that is a credible argument, but I guess that is normal for desperate revisionists. They ignore reality, make up their own and point the finger at others. And secondly, you are also under the false assumption that two drivers with different driving styles cannot be comfortable in the same car. No evidence presented at all, and if you take a lot at Mclaren it seems to be working well.


Statistics, that's my problem. Any fool could hunt up stats and come to conclusions without fully understanding the way the season panned out or the ups and downs both teams had to face over the season. I could use stats too for instance:

http://www.f1technical.net/news/4406



From the horse's mouth (Renault F1). Clearly the best car of 2006, then...:rolleyes:



I wonder if you would be agreeing with Renault if they had stated Ferrari had the best car of the season? Somehow I doubt it. We don't need someones opinion as to what was the best car of 2006 because that is quite clear if you understand the sport and drivers, and now it is very clear who had the best car since we have had the pleasure of seeing Alonso and Massa in equal cars. There is no way possible that the Ferrari could not have been the best car of 2006, and interestingly, every shred of evidence points to it. Let me explain so you understand it, not that you seem interested in understanding anything that does not agree with your agenda.

1. Massa has been team mates to both Alonso and Fisichella, and their relative performances in 2006 strongly indicates, the Ferrari was the best car of 2006. Important to take note there is correlation between both of these measurements, and zero correlation with yours because you have not presented any.

2. Massa was new to the team, while Fisichella was established, with the car, team and engineers, which flys in the face of your totally groundless claims that Massa was the more comfortable driver of 2006.

3. The performance gap between Alonso and Massa is greater than it was between Michael and an inexperienced Massa in 2006.

Every measure we have points to Ferrari being the better car in 2006. Not some, but all, and in that circumstance its impossible for you to be right. Infact you have to be monumentally wrong for everything to be contradicting your argument.

Edited by hero, 20 October 2011 - 06:02.


#14777 hero

hero
  • Member

  • 99 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 05:49

Of course Giancarlo was more comfortable with the R26 compared to the R25. Not compared to his teammate, to the Ferrari, to Massa or whatever. Not sure what this is supposed to prove.


It proves that your claims are 100% unfounded because the very words of the Fisichella directly contradict your claims. I give you credit for creativity though.

On the other hand you've rejected theories about Fisichella's own driving style and the difference between his and his teammate's styles. I think I'll have to assume that, unlike the poster that seems to have analysed onboards of the two drivers in question and presented a pretty good case, you are clueless on the topic.

Yes he has rejected a theory from a random on an internet forum, as you would do.

Nothing useless about pointing out revisionism when I see it. The frustrating thing about 'arguing' with such people is they need proof and links for everything on the internet apparently, you could argue all day long that the sun rises in the east but these adamant sorts wouldn't be satisfied until a video of a sunrise was presented, and even that wouldn't be enough.


A good description of someone who denys the words from a driver when it does not agree with his agenda, , for the words of a random on a forum, yet quotes words from the another driver (massa) when they agree with his agenda. (massa)

Too bad. As I have been saying all along, it was a season of tyres, track characteristics and ups\downs, probably more than than a lot of other F1 seasons, Bell and Symonds pretty much echo the sentiments. So would anybody that actually followed the season. There was no neat division of the season into two halves w.r.t. performance or some such fairytale.

Still, and I'm having to repeat this for the umpteenth time, I'm fine with the opinion that the two cars were evenly matched. I don't agree and never will, nor are you going to budge. My opinion from what I recall and watching the season is that on balance Renault definitely had the better car, definitely had a massive advantage for 11 of the 18 races until the mass damper ban. Ferrari definitely started off on the backfoot, definitely had the advantage at a few races, but nowhere near enough to claim they were better. Your opinion is the opposite in effect and I'm fine with it.


How did Ferrari start off on the back foot when they locked out the front row at the first race of the season??? Renalt had an advantagein maybe 5 of the first 9 races, the rest was Ferrari mistakes, an from Indy it was Ferrari domination apart from china and Hungary, where even a green Massa was able to dominate races and get poles, which proves beyond all doubt how good that car was, when you look at his performances since 2010.

Too bad. As I have been saying all along, it was a season of tyres, track characteristics and ups\downs, probably more than than a lot of other F1 seasons, Bell and Symonds pretty much echo the sentiments. So would anybody that actually followed the season. There was no neat division of the season into two halves w.r.t. performance or some such fairytale.


True. The balance varied from race to race, but on balance Ferrari had the advantage more often than not, but from Indy it was generally the best in the dry and by a margin. Michael was not at his best at 36, so it should not be hard to accept that at that point Alonso was the superior driver.

Edited by hero, 20 October 2011 - 06:30.


#14778 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:10

Guys, go discuss 2006 in some Alonso thread , because we really don't care!!
We, MS fans don't go in Alonso thread, because we feel superior. We don't have needs to go there and to prove something. Only Alonso fans come here?
Anthony Davidson said one time that MS get sick in simulator and we will continue with this story forever????
Since then MGP changed their simulator at least one time. We don't know if MS get sick in the new simulator? We don't know if what about AD was telling is not separate incident? We all have bad days. And lastly I don't think if it is still true ,that is hindering MS on the track.

Edited by ivand911, 20 October 2011 - 07:16.


#14779 Igorr

Igorr
  • Member

  • 235 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:33

guys, what do u think about next season suiting schumi's driving style more, with the "normal" exhaust rules and the ban of the blown diffuser? He can definitely change the corner approach, and use his old method of braking into the corner with the throttle still open? It should be a good advantage as we know how good he used to be in that.

Advertisement

#14780 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:46

guys, what do u think about next season suiting schumi's driving style more, with the "normal" exhaust rules and the ban of the blown diffuser? He can definitely change the corner approach, and use his old method of braking into the corner with the throttle still open? It should be a good advantage as we know how good he used to be in that.

Could be. He will have to change his driving style from this year for sure. But, will he go back to his old driving style or he will find better driving style for next year car I don't know. Will see. Could be some mixed driving style with new and old elements. He will find out what make car go faster.


#14781 hero

hero
  • Member

  • 99 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:49

guys, what do u think about next season suiting schumi's driving style more, with the "normal" exhaust rules and the ban of the blown diffuser? He can definitely change the corner approach, and use his old method of braking into the corner with the throttle still open? It should be a good advantage as we know how good he used to be in that.


I thought the driving style excuse was used up this year? I would have expected schumacher fans to be aware that michaels great strength used to be the ability to adapt and drive anything fast, regardless of handling. He might of had a driving preference, but it was never a single style he relied on.

#14782 Igorr

Igorr
  • Member

  • 235 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 07:51

For sure he is still using his old elements, mixing them up with the new ones, always having the rear end dancing. And i remember on few occasions he was warned by the engineer not to use the brake and throttle in the same time, so i guess he will be more comfortable in the car for sure, and hopefully quicker.

#14783 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,555 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:04

Massa was not a rookie when he was paired with MSC.

You know what I mean with that? It was his first time in a serious team and there was a lot to be learned. Ferrari is just a tad bigger than Sauber ;) He was testdriver in 2003 for Ferrari, true, otoh combining knowledge with action isn't easy and certainly not if your speeds are above 200kph on average :cool:

Now I think of it, since Alonso had built up his gap so dramatically early in the season, Massa had to interfere but he wasn't able to due to his 'rookieness'. Fisichella had to interfere with Schumacher (was one year more experienced at this team compared to Massa). He was actually in hot pursuit but most of the time not able to do anything about it when it mattered most. Their battle in Hungary was colossal by the way :o



guys, what do u think about next season suiting schumi's driving style more, with the "normal" exhaust rules and the ban of the blown diffuser? He can definitely change the corner approach, and use his old method of braking into the corner with the throttle still open? It should be a good advantage as we know how good he used to be in that.

What one is forgetting here, is that electronics are getting in the way of that tactic. As far as I know, Schumacher wasn't able to blip the throttle anymore due to the standard ECU that was introduced in 2008. Thaat measure was taken to prevent teams of going ahead and implementing / hiding their own traction control and alike systems in that component. But back ontopic, since ECU's are still standardized in '12 I think he still has to work around it? But the way he does it know, should fit, most of the time we are seeing it in the laptimes this season.

Edited by Jejking, 20 October 2011 - 09:14.


#14784 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,129 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:11

You know what I mean with that? It was his first time in a serious team and there was a lot to be learned. Ferrari is just a tad bigger than Sauber ;) He was testdriver in 2003 for Ferrari, true, otoh combining knowledge with action isn't easy and certainly not if your speeds are above 200kph on average :cool:


He had 3 years racing with Sauber, many drivers have had far less time before moving to a top team. To try and classify him in anyway as a rookie when he got the Ferrari drive is ridiculous.

#14785 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,129 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:13

What one is forgetting here, is that electronics are getting in the way of that tactic. As far as I know, Schumacher wasn't able to blip the throttle anymore due to the standard ECU that was introduced in 2008. Thaat measure was taken to prevent teams of going ahead and implementing / hiding their own traction control and alike systems in that component. But back ontopic, since ECU's are still standardized in '12 I think he still has to work around it? But the way he does it know, should fit, most of the time we are seeing it in the laptimes this season.


Why would the standard ECU prevent a driver from blipping the throttle? It prevents the electronics from doing it on behalf of the driver, but there is nothing to stop the driver doing it.

#14786 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 24,024 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:45

Why would the standard ECU prevent a driver from blipping the throttle? It prevents the electronics from doing it on behalf of the driver, but there is nothing to stop the driver doing it.



it is the blown diffuser that does not permit the kind of throttle manipulationg schumacher long used to balance the car under braking and in corners, specifically the hot blown diffuser, as the throttle must be at rest for the system to kick in. Hence him being told a lot early this year not to use the throttle under braking.

#14787 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,555 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:47

He had 3 years racing with Sauber, many drivers have had far less time before moving to a top team. To try and classify him in anyway as a rookie when he got the Ferrari drive is ridiculous.

What would you call him then? Massa had a couple of decent drives but was on the other hand very ragged around the edges at other times, including a lot of clashes. Especially in his rookie season, 2003 was testing, 2004 was more mature but still with some rookie mistakes (Monza 2004 f.e.). 2005 was better and then Ferrari came along with the second seat alongside Schumacher. Not sure how to label him then.

Edit: thanks for clarifying that Baddog, it's no easy material sometimes. I think, if Schumacher was able to use it, he would have used it. It's a driver characteristic.

Edited by Jejking, 20 October 2011 - 09:49.


#14788 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,792 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:57

it is the blown diffuser that does not permit the kind of throttle manipulationg schumacher long used to balance the car under braking and in corners, specifically the hot blown diffuser, as the throttle must be at rest for the system to kick in. Hence him being told a lot early this year not to use the throttle under braking.

^This
He had to "unlearn" from his normal driving style and lift off in order to get the downforce from the EBD in the corners. The other driver I've heard being told not to use brake and throttle at the same time was Vettel. And I thought it must be a natural instinctive reaction which they have to suppress.

#14789 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,129 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:28

What would you call him then? Massa had a couple of decent drives but was on the other hand very ragged around the edges at other times, including a lot of clashes. Especially in his rookie season, 2003 was testing, 2004 was more mature but still with some rookie mistakes (Monza 2004 f.e.). 2005 was better and then Ferrari came along with the second seat alongside Schumacher. Not sure how to label him then.

Edit: thanks for clarifying that Baddog, it's no easy material sometimes. I think, if Schumacher was able to use it, he would have used it. It's a driver characteristic.


I'd call him an experienced driver. He might have had more to learn, but that still doesn't make him anywhere near a rookie at that stage of his career.

#14790 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 2,555 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:15

I'm prepared to give in on this one so we can start looking again at the bigger picture :p

#14791 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 28,129 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:46

^This
He had to "unlearn" from his normal driving style and lift off in order to get the downforce from the EBD in the corners. The other driver I've heard being told not to use brake and throttle at the same time was Vettel. And I thought it must be a natural instinctive reaction which they have to suppress.


I think it's something that comes through from karting. After many years of doing it's probably easy to slip back into.

#14792 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:24

Some old stuff looking trough PlanetF1 to find the last Schumi's Sekret Tageblog:
Herbert: Schumacher likely to quit
Schumi laughs off Irvine's dig
Lauda: Schumi's days are numbered

And if somebody missed it:
Schumi's Sekret Tageblog: Buttons!

"Hello my tifosi chums.

You, more than anyone else in this crazy world we call F1, will be knowing what the situation is right now with a certain line of questions.
"Michael, are you going to retire?"
You know, if I had one euro for every time this question has been asked to me, I could have given it to the Greeks and they would have no debt problems. It was last year very similar.

There are three totally boring and most-asked questions in F1 and that is one of them. The second is "Do you think Lewis is a dangerous driver?" and the third is, "Eddie, is that your own hair?"

The answer to each is "no", "no" and "no".

I am also constantly being asked what I think about Sebastian, to which I always reply with a bit of a wink attached: "I think he's the best Swiss driver since Clay Regazzoni". Which reminds me. Quite honestly and obviously there is something to be investigated about Italian surnames in F1. Perhaps there is a genetic link as to why there are so many who don't come from Italy. Let me start a list for you:
Rubens Barrichello, not from Italy, from Brazil
Jerome D'Ambrosio, not from Italy, from Belgium
Paul DiResta, not from Italy, from Scotland, och aye
Daniel Ricciardo, not from Italy, from Australia, mate
Sebastien Buemi, not from Italy, from Switzerland
Jarno Trulli, not from Italy, from Planet Whiney

The last entry was, naturally, a joke, but you can see where I am pointing. Anyway, I am very much enjoying my summer break here at Schloss Schumi in Vufflens Le Chateau. It has given me time to reflect the season so far. Perhaps my two nemesis are doing the same. I am sure Kamui Kobayashi is doing something relaxing, like hurling himself down canyons in a damp suit. Vitaly Petrov is no doubt at a Black Sea resort gorging himself silly on beetroot-based snacks. Probably some insects, too.

Quite honestly and obviously and honestly and obviously my season would have been a lot better if they hadn't been in the way so much. But it is my own fault. I keep forgetting things. I wake up at night in the cold sweat screaming "Unlatch the paddle! Unlatch the paddle!"

There are so many buttons to press and it is always so difficult to remember what they do in the heating battle. Lieblings pudgie wudgie donut face says I can't remember to put the top back on the toothpaste tube at home so it's not surprising I fiddle with the wrong buttons when I have 'Banzai Boy' or 'Simples' breathing up my exhaust pipe.

My starts are going great. No problems there. It's just my finishes that are not going so well...And Laps 8 to 46 could also be a lot better.

Here is the typical race for me in 2011.
Qualify two places behind Nico, 0.2 seconds slower. Not so bad.
Good start, make up a few places
Change tyres the earliest on Lap 12
Emerge from pits behind Kobayashi who's going to Lap 27 on one set and my DRS wing isn't working. Stuck behind him, strategy disappearing down drain like a rat chasing a sausage.
Banzai Boy disappears and finally catch Petrov.
Lose front wing in excitement of catching up another car
Box for new wing.
Come out in front of leaders and have to slow down to be lapped
Lapped by Nico... who waves to me
Press all buttons on the steering wheel at once to try to get the car to break down
Car breaks down
Give my "cheery battler" smile and wave to crowd on way back to pits
Prepare excuses for interview with Lee McKenzie who will ask me, "So, Michael, how did it go...?"
I will hint at a problem from Lap 7, but make little of it
I then say I'm really looking forward to the next race.
And no, I am not retiring.

That is the first part of the season over, but already I am looking forward to the second part and my favourite circuit at Spa and the power of the Mercedes engine. With some nice improvements to the car we can make it to the podium in the next two races. I am certain of this. I just hope the improvement doesn't involve another button.

Until then my little Schumsters, have a great summer break and if you see any strange or fascinating insects while you are out in the hot sun, make sure to send them to Vitaly, but please, whatever you do, don't send him the brightly coloured ones as they are often poisonous...

The Schum "
http://www.planetf1....geblog-Buttons-
http://www.planetf1....Tageblog-Petrov

Edited by ivand911, 20 October 2011 - 12:33.


#14793 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 20 October 2011 - 14:52

I thought the driving style excuse was used up this year? I would have expected schumacher fans to be aware that michaels great strength used to be the ability to adapt and drive anything fast, regardless of handling. He might of had a driving preference, but it was never a single style he relied on.


Schumacher developed (with other people respectfully) both the Benetton and the Ferrari over a considerable amount of time - there is not much evidence that immediately drove "anything" fast and in fact sharing sports cars with other drivers tends to suggest he was hampered when the car wasn't setup around him.



#14794 puxanando

puxanando
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 20 October 2011 - 15:32

Funny Mikele! :rotfl:

#14795 Kubiccia

Kubiccia
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 16:57

I thought the driving style excuse was used up this year? I would have expected schumacher fans to be aware that michaels great strength used to be the ability to adapt and drive anything fast, regardless of handling. He might of had a driving preference, but it was never a single style he relied on.


I agree with you. Schumi drove to the limit car with high understeer(Ferrari 96, for instance) and also cars with high oversteer. Car handling is not an excuse for him not being so fast as before.

Funny Mikele! :rotfl:

Great finding :up:

Had a good laugh, but his name is not Mikele or Miguel or any other Spanish variation/version of Michael :p

#14796 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 20 October 2011 - 18:23

I agree with you. Schumi drove to the limit car with high understeer(Ferrari 96, for instance) and also cars with high oversteer. C


And won the '96 WDC!! oh wait ...

Oh and show me all the pictures with Schumacher hanging the tail out on all those "oversteering" cars 'cause I have never seen them ....


Car handling is not an excuse for him not being so fast as before.


Handling and road holding (grip) are entirely different things, the Benz presently doesn't have the latter. A race driver will take high grip, bad handling over low grip, good handling in a bee's breath - learn the difference.

#14797 F1Champion

F1Champion
  • Member

  • 3,043 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 20 October 2011 - 18:34

I hope a journalist can ask this question to Michael about the braking/throttle technique. What he had to do since his comeback to adjust and whether he can go back to it in 2012.

#14798 hero

hero
  • Member

  • 99 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 19:20

Schumacher developed (with other people respectfully) both the Benetton and the Ferrari over a considerable amount of time - there is not much evidence that immediately drove "anything" fast and in fact sharing sports cars with other drivers tends to suggest he was hampered when the car wasn't setup around him.


How about his first F1 race when he out qualified de chesaris by 7 tenths on a track he has never driven before? And then jumping into a benetton and blowing away triple world champion Piquet?

Edited by hero, 20 October 2011 - 19:24.


#14799 Kubiccia

Kubiccia
  • Member

  • 1,370 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 20 October 2011 - 19:32

And won the '96 WDC!! oh wait ...

Oh and show me all the pictures with Schumacher hanging the tail out on all those "oversteering" cars 'cause I have never seen them ....




Handling and road holding (grip) are entirely different things, the Benz presently doesn't have the latter. A race driver will take high grip, bad handling over low grip, good handling in a bee's breath - learn the difference.



You could argue the oversteer is due to high kerb but still it took too many time to recover from it.

PS: I know the difference between grip and handling. :drunk: Mercedes have poor grip but still prime Schumi would be faster than Nico by bigger margin, regardless of car handling because this was never his problem

Advertisement

#14800 schubacca

schubacca
  • Member

  • 800 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 20 October 2011 - 20:15

All sorts of revisionist history going on to prove that MS is not one of the greatest drivers of all time.

What he does or doesn't do now does not affect his legendary status.

Edited by schubacca, 20 October 2011 - 20:15.