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#1451 Messi10

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 20:59

MS was always a championship contender though, dominant car or not (obviously as long as the car was capable of winning races), were imo him at his absolute best even though he didn't win any titles. If we go by your argument, there would be much fewer WDCs as many of them had dominant cars too.

For me, whoever wins the WDC deserves it 100% regardless of car.

they all deserve it, just like Jenson last year. You misinterpreted my argument. Reread angst post on the top of this page.. That's the whole point. His 7 titles do not demonstrate how great Shumi was as most of those were because he had the most dominant car. Take Shumi out and plug kimi in and there is a different wdc for ferrari; severa years later Brawns puts together the best car and button wins the wdc against the same teamate shumi had for all those years.

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#1452 CSquared

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 22:04

The F1 regulations that came into play during his time in F1 absolutely played to his strengths and wiped out - effectively - his weaknesses.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your basic premise, but one could just as easily argue that he (and his dream team) made those his strengths because they were the ones which maximized the variables at the time, and if the rules had been different he (they) would have channeled his abilities into the directions that were favored by those rules.


#1453 iakhtar

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 22:16

they all deserve it, just like Jenson last year. You misinterpreted my argument. Reread angst post on the top of this page.. That's the whole point. His 7 titles do not demonstrate how great Shumi was as most of those were because he had the most dominant car. Take Shumi out and plug kimi in and there is a different wdc for ferrari; severa years later Brawns puts together the best car and button wins the wdc against the same teamate shumi had for all those years.


i did read his post earlier, "The F1 regulations that came into play during his time in F1 absolutely played to his strengths and wiped out - effectively - his weaknesses", you would need access to telemetry and data to make that kind of claim. In essence he is suggesting that MS cannot cope with tyre management when no refuelling is introduced, there's no evidence of this. The only thing we know at the moment is that a forced setup due to a flaw in weight distribution is causing tyre wear issues for MS in particular and NR to a lesser extent.

As for simply plugging a driver in, i don't really see where you were going with this, MS didn't just jump into a fast ferrari and win his titles, took almost five years and a hell of a lot of work from him and his team to earn their success, we certainly don't know that all drivers could have repeated the ferrari story or if the outcome would have been similar, it's irrelevant either way.

#1454 eoin

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 23:08

they all deserve it, just like Jenson last year. You misinterpreted my argument. Reread angst post on the top of this page.. That's the whole point. His 7 titles do not demonstrate how great Shumi was as most of those were because he had the most dominant car. Take Shumi out and plug kimi in and there is a different wdc for ferrari; severa years later Brawns puts together the best car and button wins the wdc against the same teamate shumi had for all those years.


And where is kimi now? You have to look at his career as a whole, not isolate it into races or seasons. Schumacher is a great because he was truly competitive, within the limits of the car, from his first season in 1991 until his final season in 2006. The 7 WDC is just a reflection on that. If Hamilton or Alonso do the same over the next ~10 years then they will be right up there even if their stats aren't as impressive. Kimi won the WDC in a car that probably wasn't even the best on the grid yet I doubt many will remember him as a great. It's more than just talents, it's the hunger and drive that makes people stand out.

Edited by eoin, 01 May 2010 - 23:11.


#1455 Messi10

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 23:14

And where is kimi now? You have to look at his career as a whole, not isolate it into races or seasons. Schumacher is a great because he was truly competitive, within the limits of the car, from his first season in 1991 until his final season in 2006.

and that is why I said that he deserves credit for his consistency and getting the team around him 100%..

The 7 WDC is just a reflection on that.

not necessarily unless you actually believe that it was his effort the reason why Brawn and Ferrari dominated the competition from an engineering standpoint..


If Hamilton or Alonso do the same over the next ~10 years then they will be right up there even if their stats aren't as impressive.

they need to have luck on their side to have dominant cars year after year while at the same time their competitors design incompetent cars.


#1456 1amiga

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:37


Any seasoned F1 fan knows that drivers go better in some cars and worse in others.

Last year we had Button going really well in the first half of the year but later Rubens showed superior pace in the second half.

Kubica struggled with the BMW and look at him now this year in the Renault

#1457 eoin

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:04

and that is why I said that he deserves credit for his consistency and getting the team around him 100%..

not necessarily unless you actually believe that it was his effort the reason why Brawn and Ferrari dominated the competition from an engineering standpoint..


they need to have luck on their side to have dominant cars year after year while at the same time their competitors design incompetent cars.


Arrr. That is not what I said.
Schumacher was at the top of his sport for ~15 years- that's what made him great. The years when he fought and lost are just as important as the years when he won. His driving from 96-99 was just as impressive as from any of his years when he won the WDC.

#1458 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 10:40

As for simply plugging a driver in, i don't really see where you were going with this, MS didn't just jump into a fast ferrari and win his titles, took almost five years and a hell of a lot of work from him and his team to earn their success, we certainly don't know that all drivers could have repeated the ferrari story or if the outcome would have been similar, it's irrelevant either way.


If you take the amount of time it took for MS to win his first Ferrari title as a measure of how much work it was, fair enough.

But there is other the other outlook on it, that it took him too long because MS and the team, at various points to varying degrees, messed up.
In fact there were strong indications at the time that had they failed to nail the 2000 title it would have been the end certainly for Jean Todt and possibly even for MS himself at Maranello. Todt was on the brink of being fired already a year earlier.

Of course it all turned good in the end, but it still it wasn't as straightforward between 1996 and 2000 as it now appears.

#1459 JimmyStew

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 11:52

If you take the amount of time it took for MS to win his first Ferrari title as a measure of how much work it was, fair enough.

But there is other the other outlook on it, that it took him too long because MS and the team, at various points to varying degrees, messed up.
In fact there were strong indications at the time that had they failed to nail the 2000 title it would have been the end certainly for Jean Todt and possibly even for MS himself at Maranello. Todt was on the brink of being fired already a year earlier.

Of course it all turned good in the end, but it still it wasn't as straightforward between 1996 and 2000 as it now appears.

Would MS have won the '99 WDC had he not crashed at Stowe corner?

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#1460 as65p

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:00

Would MS have won the '99 WDC had he not crashed at Stowe corner?


Would Hakkinen have won the '00 WDC if Bridgestone had brougt different tyre compounds to Suzuka?

#1461 JimmyStew

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:11

Would Hakkinen have won the '00 WDC if Bridgestone had brougt different tyre compounds to Suzuka?

Yes, I believe he would. Good point. Thank you. :)

#1462 sephiroth

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 12:50

Most top drivers..
IT is really quite annoying reading posters write about how all the titles should just be credited to the driver and conveniently ignore that the car/team is the biggest contributor..


Bullshit. There is a reason why loser coulthard never won anything. Its because he was a loser. Schumacher won 5 straight years because he was head and shoulders above everyone else. You can always give credit to the car but in a straight driver shoot out Schumacher would have won every championship since 93.

#1463 AndreasF1

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 13:02

and I belived Ferrari realized that they were paying him way to much to be a support driver to Massa..



I brought him up because in addition to Shumacher being a good driver he knew how to play the politics and get the team behind him to support him 100%.. Other drivers have failed to do this and they are not necessarily less talented, and that is why I guess we can credit him for maintaining that consistency with the team but at the same time he was lucky that ferrari was so dominant for so many years while at the same time teams like mclaren/williams decided to screw up at the same time.



Prost is not a good example. He left McLaren in 1989 after loosing the internal team battle to Senna. He blew his chance for a farewell party after handing over his 3rd place trophy to the Tifosi.
His tenure at Ferrari lasted less than 2 years. First he got into a big power struggle with Fiorio that he didn't win and then he was fired because of comparing the handling of his Ferrari to that of a truck.

#1464 AndreasF1

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 13:09

Bullshit. There is a reason why loser coulthard never won anything. Its because he was a loser. Schumacher won 5 straight years because he was head and shoulders above everyone else. You can always give credit to the car but in a straight driver shoot out Schumacher would have won every championship since 93.


I agree with almost everything except 93. Senna was still better.


#1465 ivand911

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 13:31

Schumi's Secret Tageblog: Losing It

Hello my gorgeous Tageblog fans. It is a little while since I am tageblogging to you, but as you can understand, things have been busy up my end.

Quite honestly and obviously I would like to be bringing you reaction to my first comeback win by now but this is not possible because, as you have seen, results have not been as good as I would have imagined.

This is because I am expecting a car with a nice positive turn-in and all I am getting is a car that loves to go straight on.

That is the simple reason Nico is much better than me right now. After driving at Williams for so many years he is quite at home with a car that never does what he wants it to do. He doesn't expect it to turn in and he is not disappointed.

Having driven so long for the Scuderia in association with Ross and Rory I am most happy with cars that do what they are supposed to do. When it comes to a corner, the red cars will turn.

My answer has been to set up the car with a slidey rear end, but in doing so, the sliding is destroying my back tyres and I am slipping back through the field to have fights with that boy scout Alguersuari.

However help is the hand. And with my new chassis you will see me rising up through the grid to score my first podium very soon. Already I have taken a leaf out of Sebastian Vettel's book by nicknaming my car. I have called her Curvy Corinna, after my Lieblings Pudgie Wudgie Donut Face. I think if I called her Shapely Sabine or any other girl's name, I would have been looking at the exit door back home (not that we have any marked in this way).

Many people have been writing about my downfall already. Autosport printed a front cover asking: Has Schu Lost It? this week. They asked Sterling Moss and he thought I probably had lost it. But then again he is the man who only the other week walked into a lift that wasn't there.

"People say he's the best because he has seven World titles, but that doesn't mean anything really," said Sir Sterling. But I think it is better to be described as "former seven times World Champion Michael Schumacher," than "nice bloke who was very fast in the 1950s but ultimately lacked the dastardly killer edge to clinch the World Championship and gave it to Mike Hawthorn."

If I have lost it why am I nearly always winning the Race of Champions. Quite honestly and obviously, I don't care if people think I have lost all of it or some of it, or found half of it again. In fact, I don't give an F-duct.

I heard my name mentioned recently in connected to Lewis Hamilton "Schu-weaving" down the main straight at Sepang. What Lewis is doing is completely wrong and I am taking him to one side afterward for a lecture. There were so many mistakes. First: You only start the Schu-weave when the guy behind makes a move - Lewis went far too early. Second: You must make the guy behind put at least two wheels on the grass, Petrov had easily loads of tarmac. Thirdly: You must try and pin the guy behind against the pitwall, Lewis didn't come close.

Altogether I am ashamed at having that move of Lewis's associated with me. It was like Schu-weaving Lite or Schu-weaving for girls.

Now to prove that I am not downhearted and my comedy motivation is high, here is a joke that I think combines both the humour of surprise, using a format that is well-known to the joke receiver, and then adds a layer of motorsport knowledge on top for that added impact. To get this joke properly you have needed to be watching the first four races of the year. I don't think it has spoilt any of the anticipation by explaining this logically in advance. So, here we go:

Q: How many Sauber mechanics does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Two. One to change the bulb and one to say it's not as bright as it used to be.

Q: How many Red Bull mechanics does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Five. One to change the bulb and four to stand in front of it so that people think it's interesting.

As Frank Carson would say: "it's the way I am explaining them"

Love and kisses

The Schu

#1466 Mandzipop

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 13:35

^^^

I love those secret diaries. Some of them are hilarious. :lol:

#1467 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 13:41

I don't find it amusing at all.

#1468 angst

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 13:42

Bullshit. There is a reason why loser coulthard never won anything.


Errmm... he did win things.

Its because he was a loser.


Hmmm....

Schumacher won 5 straight years because he was head and shoulders above everyone else.


But..., in the years when he "never won anything" he must have been, simply, a "loser"..., yes?

You can always give credit to the car but in a straight driver shoot out Schumacher would have won every championship since 93.


Errmmm..., so why didn't he? Was he, in those years when he wasn't winning a "loser"? And if it wasn't the car/team that made the difference then why didn't he win every championship? Which takes us back to your initial statement; bullshit. You've decried a perfectly reasonable argument with self-contradiction and flatulent, drivelling flim-flam.

What your argument here appears to amount to is; its bullshit to claim that the car/team play a large part in determining results, and if only Schumacher had the right car/team through the years since '93 he'd have won everything and...and...and...

It's no argument at all, is it.


#1469 iakhtar

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 13:50

Brilliant :lol:

#1470 Timstr11

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 14:25

Alonso, who do you like to overtake?
«Leaving Schumacher behind is always nice: you’re talking about it for a whole week.» source

:lol:

#1471 sephiroth

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 15:05

Errmm... he did win things.


Maybe in his dreams. For being in the best car for 3 years, Coulthard's greatest accomplishment was taking out Schumi in Spa.

Hmmm....



But..., in the years when he "never won anything" he must have been, simply, a "loser"..., yes?


Obviously. He was a loser in those years. But since he did end up winning something in his career, overall he isn't a loser. I'll go even so far as to say the Button isn't a loser (though he is the 3rd worst winner in the 25 years I have been watching F1).

Errmmm..., so why didn't he? Was he, in those years when he wasn't winning a "loser"? And if it wasn't the car/team that made the difference then why didn't he win every championship? Which takes us back to your initial statement; bullshit. You've decried a perfectly reasonable argument with self-contradiction and flatulent, drivelling flim-flam.

What your argument here appears to amount to is; its bullshit to claim that the car/team play a large part in determining results, and if only Schumacher had the right car/team through the years since '93 he'd have won everything and...and...and...

It's no argument at all, is it.


He didn't win in those years because Team Schumacher wasn't up to par. You can't blame or credit one factor but the driver is the biggest factor. 97 Schumacher lost because he didn't perform well in Jerez. 98 (other then Coulthard taking him out deliberately) he screwed up in the last race. 99 I guess was most up to luck since he broke his leg. 2000-2004 he basically bent everyone over. 2005 was his worst year, 2006 he screwed up in Monaco. 96 was blah but it was Schumi's decision to switch to a shit team and try to make it better.

Schumacher's loses can be directly attributed to his screwing up (other than 99 since i believe the car failed) and his victories can also be directly attributed to him. The car only made the margin of his victories more significant.

And yes, everything else being equal he would have done a 2004 for every year since 1993.

#1472 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 15:49

Bullshit. There is a reason why loser coulthard never won anything. Its because he was a loser. Schumacher won 5 straight years because he was head and shoulders above everyone else. You can always give credit to the car but in a straight driver shoot out Schumacher would have won every championship since 93.

I don't buy it sorry.. from 96-2000 I know he was the best driver.. but after that it was the car that gave him all those titles and I am not convinced that during this timeframe he was head and shoulders above everyone else..

#1473 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 15:53

. 2005 was his worst year

....Schumacher's loses can be directly attributed to his screwing up ....


when did you start watching f1 again??? :stoned:

#1474 SeanValen

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 16:18

I don't buy it sorry.. from 96-2000 I know he was the best driver.. but after that it was the car that gave him all those titles and I am not convinced that during this timeframe he was head and shoulders above everyone else..



1997 and 1998 were near misses at the last races, the fact it went down to the last races races is a testament to alot of fine drives to accumulate points, winning titles does not have a exact science, you can try very hard and be the best and still not get a title, 1998 was a very entertaining season, Schuey likely lost it at Spa in the couthard crash, he didn'tl lack skills or anything, he was leading and laping couthard, being good in the rain in a season like that is what you need, he won Spa the previous year, and previous year, and previous year, if a driver like that excels on tracks throughout his career, it helps in championship battles. Tactically you could say, he read the race very well with strategy, and that netted him many points contributing to title points.

1999, Eddie Irvine, Schumacher came back from his broken leg and gave Irvine the win at Sepang, had Hakkinen's engine went in Japan, Irvine world champion maybe. Schumacher came back to sepang and was 1 second faster then the rest, he was clearly on top of his machinery, what else do you need.

2000, Ferrari wasn't the best car in all races, ferrari had a tyre issue in some races up until Monza 2000, which is nearing the end of the season, the mclaren had better tyre race consistency, and actually won the car of the year awards in f1 racing mag of 2000.

2001, 2002 and 2004 were ferrari dominated seasons, that's 3 seasons. 2003 was set up to trip Schumacher and ferrari up, notice 1 lap qualifying, 2 sessions, and the championship leader was out first in quali 1 as the track sweeper, how is he going to do well from there? But he still did do well in some sessions,but bascially was never realy going to get on terms in qualifying, the rules that year introduced randomness to trip up a top team, which many thought was unfair, they didn't need it, everyone in 2002 thought ferrari was going to be strong forever, so they did stupid rule changes in 2003, and it almost worked given the struggle MS and ferrari had that year, but the tyre wars and williams, mclaren and renault looking strong in certain races made that season more difficult along with the strange rules.


2001-2002 and 2004 just showed how quick MS can wrap up a championship in the most professional way when he had a consistent and reliable car, but even in those seasons there were races were it wasn't as straight forward as it seems, it's easy to generalise alot of hard work and say this was better or that car was better, but all those seasons had alot of racing and races which specific car advantages were not always the same per track, but Schumacher on consistency did well which helped him wrap it up. He did alot of fine drives when he didn't have the car, and did what was expected of him and sometimes more in domination when he had the car, asking for more, is asking for blood.

When Schumacher arrived at Ferrari it was broken in 1996, it's not like he was waiting for a Williams seat, he gave up a title in 1996, and even Damon Hill admitted he was lucky Schumacher was in ferrari that year.

Edited by SeanValen, 02 May 2010 - 16:25.


#1475 pedrovski

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 17:29

I think any sportsman is only as good as his opposition. In Schumacher's case he was clearly the best driver after senna died up until the early 2000's. He was able to leverage that position in the sport to get the "Golden contract" at Ferrari, and go on to dominate until better drivers came along. Hakkinen had the speed but he was one dimensional and mentally fragile. I'll never forget him having a cry in the woods at Monza, something I can't see Alonso or Hamilton doing.
It's clear that the current crop of drivers are better than those faced by Schumacher in his prime, in fact, in his prime he might not have been able to beat Hamilton and Alonso that easily.
I think Schumacher saw how close Massa came to the championship 2008 and Barrichello having a run at it in '09 and thought to himself "I'll have some of that" but is 41 and past his prime. I think he could win a couple of races but that's it. Maybe he'[s hoping for another dominant car from Brawn and his gang but he'll have to beat Nico first. :smoking:

#1476 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 17:38

2001, 2002 and 2004 were ferrari dominated seasons, that's 3 seasons. 2003 was set up to trip Schumacher and ferrari up, notice 1 lap qualifying, 2 sessions, and the championship leader was out first in quali 1 as the track sweeper


and please tell us how it all ended up at the end when Michelin appeared to have the upper hand.. Oh yeah, that's right, the FIA banned their tires so that the title did not go to Montoya or Kimi.. Its all well documented..

In 2006 he had a like for like car with Alonso and the best driver won and it was not Shumi.. :)

you can stress his greatness between 96-2000 when the grid was not as highly as competitive as today.. however that's not even close to what Senna was able to accomplish and the drivers he had to beat on track..

Edited by Messi10, 02 May 2010 - 18:35.


#1477 iakhtar

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 17:50

I think any sportsman is only as good as his opposition. In Schumacher's case he was clearly the best driver after senna died up until the early 2000's. He was able to leverage that position in the sport to get the "Golden contract" at Ferrari, and go on to dominate until better drivers came along. Hakkinen had the speed but he was one dimensional and mentally fragile. I'll never forget him having a cry in the woods at Monza, something I can't see Alonso or Hamilton doing.
It's clear that the current crop of drivers are better than those faced by Schumacher in his prime, in fact, in his prime he might not have been able to beat Hamilton and Alonso that easily.
I think Schumacher saw how close Massa came to the championship 2008 and Barrichello having a run at it in '09 and thought to himself "I'll have some of that" but is 41 and past his prime. I think he could win a couple of races but that's it. Maybe he'[s hoping for another dominant car from Brawn and his gang but he'll have to beat Nico first. :smoking:

no disrespect to Alonso, he is a brilliant driver but MS gave him a very close battle on his retirement season, in his prime i don't think Alonso could have beaten him, but i do agree that Hamilton and Alonso are superior to MS' competition earlier in his career, with both of them i can see that spark of brilliance that separates normal f1 drivers from trully exceptional ones. Funnily enough all three of them are also the most controversial drivers.

#1478 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 17:52

From Alonso's latest interview..

How does one win a Championship?
«Starting from the car, with good planning. Then there’s the development, although with the limitations we have fantasy is restricted. To win now you also need some luck. It’s important that not just a details works, but a whole lot of things.»

The driver doesn’t count?
«It’s all about the team: how you work at the Works and then at the track. I think the one who drives has a low percentage, but the driver has to be up to the performance and consistent. It’s not important giving 100% from time to time, but always and under any circumstances 98%.

#1479 RSNS

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 18:07

Schumi's Secret Tageblog: Losing It

Hello my gorgeous Tageblog fans. It is a little while since I am tageblogging to you, but as you can understand, things have been busy up my end.

Quite honestly and obviously I would like to be bringing you reaction to my first comeback win by now but this is not possible because, as you have seen, results have not been as good as I would have imagined.

This is because I am expecting a car with a nice positive turn-in and all I am getting is a car that loves to go straight on.

That is the simple reason Nico is much better than me right now. After driving at Williams for so many years he is quite at home with a car that never does what he wants it to do. He doesn't expect it to turn in and he is not disappointed.

Having driven so long for the Scuderia in association with Ross and Rory I am most happy with cars that do what they are supposed to do. When it comes to a corner, the red cars will turn.

My answer has been to set up the car with a slidey rear end, but in doing so, the sliding is destroying my back tyres and I am slipping back through the field to have fights with that boy scout Alguersuari.

However help is the hand. And with my new chassis you will see me rising up through the grid to score my first podium very soon. Already I have taken a leaf out of Sebastian Vettel's book by nicknaming my car. I have called her Curvy Corinna, after my Lieblings Pudgie Wudgie Donut Face. I think if I called her Shapely Sabine or any other girl's name, I would have been looking at the exit door back home (not that we have any marked in this way).

Many people have been writing about my downfall already. Autosport printed a front cover asking: Has Schu Lost It? this week. They asked Sterling Moss and he thought I probably had lost it. But then again he is the man who only the other week walked into a lift that wasn't there.

"People say he's the best because he has seven World titles, but that doesn't mean anything really," said Sir Sterling. But I think it is better to be described as "former seven times World Champion Michael Schumacher," than "nice bloke who was very fast in the 1950s but ultimately lacked the dastardly killer edge to clinch the World Championship and gave it to Mike Hawthorn."

If I have lost it why am I nearly always winning the Race of Champions. Quite honestly and obviously, I don't care if people think I have lost all of it or some of it, or found half of it again. In fact, I don't give an F-duct.

I heard my name mentioned recently in connected to Lewis Hamilton "Schu-weaving" down the main straight at Sepang. What Lewis is doing is completely wrong and I am taking him to one side afterward for a lecture. There were so many mistakes. First: You only start the Schu-weave when the guy behind makes a move - Lewis went far too early. Second: You must make the guy behind put at least two wheels on the grass, Petrov had easily loads of tarmac. Thirdly: You must try and pin the guy behind against the pitwall, Lewis didn't come close.

Altogether I am ashamed at having that move of Lewis's associated with me. It was like Schu-weaving Lite or Schu-weaving for girls.

Now to prove that I am not downhearted and my comedy motivation is high, here is a joke that I think combines both the humour of surprise, using a format that is well-known to the joke receiver, and then adds a layer of motorsport knowledge on top for that added impact. To get this joke properly you have needed to be watching the first four races of the year. I don't think it has spoilt any of the anticipation by explaining this logically in advance. So, here we go:

Q: How many Sauber mechanics does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Two. One to change the bulb and one to say it's not as bright as it used to be.

Q: How many Red Bull mechanics does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Five. One to change the bulb and four to stand in front of it so that people think it's interesting.

As Frank Carson would say: "it's the way I am explaining them"

Love and kisses

The Schu


Keep doing it :)


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#1480 Mandzipop

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 18:37

http://www.theogray....ecret-diary.asp

Link for some of his older diaries. The older ones are much funnier.

I'm a bit annoyed because the Monaco 2006 one is not on there and the link I have is not working but I have found it. Here it is.

Hello tifosis. I had a bit of a strange weekend, I can tell you. So far I have not revealed the true reason of what is happening to me in Rascasse on Saturday, but quite honestly and obviously I would like to get it all over my chest.


First of all I would like to thank the Ferrari pitcrew for going on the Planet-F1 poll and voting "No it was a complete accident" for the last two days.


Because this is truly what it was. I know many people have said many nasty things about what I did, but it is true. Keke Rosberg said it was the cheapest dirtiest trick, but what does he know about F1. When he was World Champion in 1982 he won it with only seven points, and three of those he got by converting Air Miles.


Jarno Trulli said if he was parking the car he could do it better, well maybe that's what he'll be doing for a living after this season.


Jacques Villebeuve said it was the most embarrassing thing he's ever seen. Well, he clearly hasn't seen Ron Dennis dance or Norbert Haug in his Bavarian weekend leisure lederhosen.


I challenged all the critics and said they should come up and tell me I'm a cheat to my face. All they have to do is get through the tight security around the outside of the Ferrari motorhome, fill in a "Schumi-you're-a-cheat" accreditation form and wait to hear back from Luca Colliani. Then we shall see, eh, eh. Yes. Come and have a go if you think you're firm enough!


Anyway, what was happening on my second hot lap, you are wanting to know...


It all started on the Friday, our day off. As you know in Monaco we practise on Thursdays and take Friday off, because it is traditional in Monaco that nobody works on Friday because nobody has to do very much except scratch their arses and buy stuff.


As you know tifosis I despise tax exiles, I only live in Switzerland because of my great love of cuckoo clocks and the healthy environment.


Anyway, we had a hard promotional day and at the end of it, Luca, Chris, Ross and I decided to do what the old F1 drivers used to do - you know Jim Clark, Graham Hill, and Sterling Moss in the swinging 1960s - pay a visit to the Tip Top club. So, we got there and I had a couple of ginger beers while Ross helped Sterling Moss, who was still there chasing dolly birds on his Motability scooter.


I am not used to the fizzy bubbles and all of a sudden I am going dizzy and waking up in this hotel room in my underpants and there is this blonde model with enormous gazongas absolutely stark naked.


You know how Cora Schumacher looks a little bit like a porn star? Well, like that but classier. The kind of girl Kimi Raikkonen can't pull at a pole dancing club. And she is walking toward me saying: "Schumi, you have been very bad, I will have to tie you up now."


I can remember blurting out, "No, no, I tipped the waiter 20 euros, that is enough."


I tried to get up but I am so unused to intoxicating beverages that my legs are crumpling downwards and my nose is getting parked in between these massive mountainous norks.


At which point Chris Dyer my engineer comes in and rescues me before she can take the video for News of the World or F1 Racing Magazine, whichever it is.


Now, you know your Schumi. On the Saturday I am totally focused on the job in my hands and I have already secured the pole position. For the second run I am travelling at speed towards the Rascasse when suddenly I get to the hairpin and look up. There, on the balcony, is the blonde with the enormous norks waving her mobile phone at me and dressed in nothing but earrings and a big smile.


The shock is so great that I stamp on the brake pedal and lock the brakes, (as you have seen on TV) then my mind goes blank and all of a sudden I have wandered towards the wall like Yuji Ide on one of his better laps.


I stagger out of the car and everybody is shouting, "You parked the car, you cheat," while I am secretly thinking 'I hope the blonde with the enormous norks hasn't got any photos'.


So when people ask me what happened, I can hardly tell them about my hotel romp, so this is a very big problem. Because Lieblings Pudgie Wudgie Donut Face will be raising the drawbridge at Schloss Schumi if she finds out. So I have to stay tight lipped. I cannot tell Max what really happened, because then he would tell Matt Bishop.


Ross has told the pitcrew but everyone is sworn to secrecy. Even Jean doesn't know.


Thankfully I am lucky to have the support of some understanding tifosis like you, who know I am not just fabricating an elaborate cover story because secretly I was actually cheating, which quite honestly and obviously I wasn't.


You are the very best tifosis a Schum could ask for


Keep on voting on those polls, to clear your Schum's name.


The Schum


#1481 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 18:38

and please tell us how it all ended up at the end when Michelin appeared to have the upper hand.. Oh yeah, that's right, the FIA banned their tires so that the title did not go to Montoya or Kimi.. Its all well documented..

Michelin used illegal tyres. They were banned. All Michelin cars used illegal tyres up until it was banned, rightfully

#1482 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 18:43

Michelin used illegal tyres. They were banned. All Michelin cars used illegal tyres up until it was banned, rightfully

so why weren't they banned at the start of the season when all the cars/tires are inspected by the fia regulators.. ?

#1483 iakhtar

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 18:59

so why weren't they banned at the start of the season when all the cars/tires are inspected by the fia regulators.. ?


incompetence most likely, the FIA has never been the sharpest tool in the shed in this regard. I never really researched the issue though, i figured they got caught and banned.

Edited by iakhtar, 02 May 2010 - 19:01.


#1484 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 19:03

so why weren't they banned at the start of the season when all the cars/tires are inspected by the fia regulators.. ?


I doubt you even watched the 2003 season to be honest. The problem with Michelin tyres were that they were expanding during the race once they were up to temperature, which gave them extra grip after a race began. The FIA used a system of measurements wherein the tyres were measured only before the race began. However the rule clearly states that the contact patch of the tyre should not exceed the 110mm limit, which clearly was happening during races. This was happening and the Michelin shod runners were getting a clear illegal advantage over Bridgestone, sometimes to the tune of 0.5-0.8 sec per lap.
The only change the FIA brought to the table was to measure the tyres both before and after the race to ensure compliance with the rule.

#1485 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 19:29

I doubt you even watched the 2003 season to be honest. The problem with Michelin tyres were that they were expanding during the race once they were up to temperature, which gave them extra grip after a race began. The FIA used a system of measurements wherein the tyres were measured only before the race began. However the rule clearly states that the contact patch of the tyre should not exceed the 110mm limit, which clearly was happening during races. This was happening and the Michelin shod runners were getting a clear illegal advantage over Bridgestone, sometimes to the tune of 0.5-0.8 sec per lap.
The only change the FIA brought to the table was to measure the tyres both before and after the race to ensure compliance with the rule.


I know all about it.. The only issue I see here is that this was only brought up by Brawn mid-season as he was grasping for straws and was trying to find a way to stop Williams/Mclaren..
If they had been illegal for so long then in reality all of their points for all those races prior to the issue being brought should've been taken away..
It was like Ferrari telling the FIA how to do their job and policing them.. So the FIA then tells the Michelin teams that "Now", your tires will be illegal if you bring them to the next race.. - Now the teams had to bring a brand new tire to the final races which they had never tested with before..
It is really stupid to see an intense three way battle for the WDC be decided by politics, which is what eventually ended up happening in 2003..

Edited by Messi10, 02 May 2010 - 19:36.


#1486 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 19:37

I know all about it.. The only issue I see here is that this was only brought up by Brawn mid-season as he was grasping for straws and was trying to find a way to stop Williams/Mclaren..
If they had been illegal for so long then in reality all of their points for all those races prior to the issue being brought should've been taken away..
It was like Ferrari telling the FIA how to do their job and policing them.. So the FIA then tells the Michelin teams that "Now", your tires will be illegal if you bring them to the next race..
It is really stupid to see an intense three way battle for the WDC be decided by politics, which is what eventually ended up happening in 2003..


Complete distortion of facts again.
1. Brawn or Ferrari did not bring the matter up. It was Bridgestone who did so.
2. Using illegal tyres and then being banned for them does not constitue grasping for straws.
3. I already explained the case in a simple and concise manner. Please bring up your argument about why you think the tyres arent illegal, instead of beating about with empty rhetoric

#1487 Ramses1348

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 19:40

so why weren't they banned at the start of the season when all the cars/tires are inspected by the fia regulators.. ?


if this is your point of view then I would love to hear you explaining the 2007 ferrari flexy floor ruling :o

#1488 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 19:44

Also, its unfortunate that teams are not fined/penalized appropriately inspite of being found guilty of breaking rules.

The Mclaren drivers were allowed to keep their points inspite of their team being implicated in a spy scandal.
Renault was not stripped of the win at Singapore 2008 inspite of it being proved that the race was fixed
Ferrari wasnt penalized for having flexi floors in 2007

The list is endless. Unfortunately in F1, lack of a proper punishment does not indicate innocence of any sort

Edited by SparkPlug, 02 May 2010 - 19:50.


#1489 Victor_RO

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 19:44

This thread is about Michael Schumacher, not about the FIA's rulings on Michelin and floors and whatnot. Please keep on topic.

#1490 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 19:48

http://www.theogray....ecret-diary.asp

Link for some of his older diaries. The older ones are much funnier.

I'm a bit annoyed because the Monaco 2006 one is not on there and the link I have is not working but I have found it. Here it is.

Hello tifosis. I had a bit of a strange weekend, I can tell you. So far I have not revealed the true reason of what is happening to me in Rascasse on Saturday, but quite honestly and obviously I would like to get it all over my chest.


First of all I would like to thank the Ferrari pitcrew for going on the Planet-F1 poll and voting "No it was a complete accident" for the last two days.


Because this is truly what it was. I know many people have said many nasty things about what I did, but it is true. Keke Rosberg said it was the cheapest dirtiest trick, but what does he know about F1. When he was World Champion in 1982 he won it with only seven points, and three of those he got by converting Air Miles.


Jarno Trulli said if he was parking the car he could do it better, well maybe that's what he'll be doing for a living after this season.


Jacques Villebeuve said it was the most embarrassing thing he's ever seen. Well, he clearly hasn't seen Ron Dennis dance or Norbert Haug in his Bavarian weekend leisure lederhosen.


I challenged all the critics and said they should come up and tell me I'm a cheat to my face. All they have to do is get through the tight security around the outside of the Ferrari motorhome, fill in a "Schumi-you're-a-cheat" accreditation form and wait to hear back from Luca Colliani. Then we shall see, eh, eh. Yes. Come and have a go if you think you're firm enough!


Anyway, what was happening on my second hot lap, you are wanting to know...


It all started on the Friday, our day off. As you know in Monaco we practise on Thursdays and take Friday off, because it is traditional in Monaco that nobody works on Friday because nobody has to do very much except scratch their arses and buy stuff.


As you know tifosis I despise tax exiles, I only live in Switzerland because of my great love of cuckoo clocks and the healthy environment.


Anyway, we had a hard promotional day and at the end of it, Luca, Chris, Ross and I decided to do what the old F1 drivers used to do - you know Jim Clark, Graham Hill, and Sterling Moss in the swinging 1960s - pay a visit to the Tip Top club. So, we got there and I had a couple of ginger beers while Ross helped Sterling Moss, who was still there chasing dolly birds on his Motability scooter.


I am not used to the fizzy bubbles and all of a sudden I am going dizzy and waking up in this hotel room in my underpants and there is this blonde model with enormous gazongas absolutely stark naked.


You know how Cora Schumacher looks a little bit like a porn star? Well, like that but classier. The kind of girl Kimi Raikkonen can't pull at a pole dancing club. And she is walking toward me saying: "Schumi, you have been very bad, I will have to tie you up now."


I can remember blurting out, "No, no, I tipped the waiter 20 euros, that is enough."


I tried to get up but I am so unused to intoxicating beverages that my legs are crumpling downwards and my nose is getting parked in between these massive mountainous norks.


At which point Chris Dyer my engineer comes in and rescues me before she can take the video for News of the World or F1 Racing Magazine, whichever it is.


Now, you know your Schumi. On the Saturday I am totally focused on the job in my hands and I have already secured the pole position. For the second run I am travelling at speed towards the Rascasse when suddenly I get to the hairpin and look up. There, on the balcony, is the blonde with the enormous norks waving her mobile phone at me and dressed in nothing but earrings and a big smile.


The shock is so great that I stamp on the brake pedal and lock the brakes, (as you have seen on TV) then my mind goes blank and all of a sudden I have wandered towards the wall like Yuji Ide on one of his better laps.


I stagger out of the car and everybody is shouting, "You parked the car, you cheat," while I am secretly thinking 'I hope the blonde with the enormous norks hasn't got any photos'.


So when people ask me what happened, I can hardly tell them about my hotel romp, so this is a very big problem. Because Lieblings Pudgie Wudgie Donut Face will be raising the drawbridge at Schloss Schumi if she finds out. So I have to stay tight lipped. I cannot tell Max what really happened, because then he would tell Matt Bishop.


Ross has told the pitcrew but everyone is sworn to secrecy. Even Jean doesn't know.


Thankfully I am lucky to have the support of some understanding tifosis like you, who know I am not just fabricating an elaborate cover story because secretly I was actually cheating, which quite honestly and obviously I wasn't.


You are the very best tifosis a Schum could ask for


Keep on voting on those polls, to clear your Schum's name.


The Schum

I have never found myself bursting into laugh reading articles like the one link provides, and I also think there is certain dirty and vindictive thought behind it. Where things get really nasty when Corina is dragged into mud. Considering some pica faces coming to us from London, I am not sure we should be wasting our time on it. For Michael she is the top of the world, and perhaps we can leave it at that.

#1491 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:09

and please tell us how it all ended up at the end when Michelin appeared to have the upper hand.. Oh yeah, that's right, the FIA banned their tires so that the title did not go to Montoya or Kimi.. Its all well documented..

and the effect of the ban was that they used the same tyres as before, it was just that they didn't set up the car to enlarge the patch of the tyre.
it was a 'flexi' floor issue, i.e. found not to be in the spirit of the rules so they changed the test.

#1492 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:29

and the effect of the ban was that they used the same tyres as before, it was just that they didn't set up the car to enlarge the patch of the tyre.
it was a 'flexi' floor issue, i.e. found not to be in the spirit of the rules so they changed the test.

Thats not true, either
Link

"The FIA has made known its intention to check front tyre tread width after, as well as before, a race, starting at Monza. Under this interpretation of the rules, it is widely thought that Michelin's recent tyres would exceed the permitted dimensions.

In response, the French company has produced new designs, which were trialled by some of its partner teams at Monza last week. "

#1493 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:32

will be illegal if you bring them to the next race.. Now the teams had to bring a brand new tire to the final races which they had never tested with before..
-


I don't think you did watch the season...

But most importantly, we did not modify our tyre - this year we ran the same tyre as we did last year, before Hungary. The only thing we changed was added a clear mark on both sides of the tread, to make it more visible and the measurement easier. Other than that, we did not modify anything to it - we didn't even change the mould, it's the same mould. So the conspiracy is therefore not valid."


Dinner in Paris Interview with Pierre Dupasquier

#1494 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:39

I don't think you did watch the season...



Dinner in Paris Interview with Pierre Dupasquier

Interesting, that is in contrast with this interview :

Director Pierre Dupasquier , Michelin
"The new interpretation of the rules by the FIA has forced us to react," he said. "You don't think for one moment that Michelin would not respond to the challenge?

"Our people have been working 24 hours a day since last Wednesday and new tyres are being tested in Monza as we speak. For anyone that knows anything about the tyre world, to do what we've just managed is a huge achievement and this is only possible thanks to the hard work and fast reaction time of our teams here in Clermont-Ferrand."


EDIT : Link

Edited by SparkPlug, 02 May 2010 - 20:40.


#1495 Fortymark

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:46

Complete distortion of facts again.
1. Brawn or Ferrari did not bring the matter up. It was Bridgestone who did so.
2. Using illegal tyres and then being banned for them does not constitue grasping for straws.
3. I already explained the case in a simple and concise manner. Please bring up your argument about why you think the tyres arent illegal, instead of beating about with empty rhetoric


From the link you provided:

It also emerged on Wednesday that Bridgestone runners Ferrari had contacted the FIA expressing concerns over the width of their rivals' tyres.

Now, lets leave this off topic discussion about the 2003 tires.
It´s a clear bias from the FIA to change their own tire rules 3 races left of the season. :stoned:

#1496 Dragonfly

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:48

Director Pierre Dupasquier , Michelin

The same man, who was interviewed by Bira and claimed they changed nothing. And the interview was published on AS site.

#1497 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:49

Sparkplug

Testing dokes not equate to racing...... he was pretty clear in the Autosport interview

and this about measurement

Anyway, it's a good 3 part interview - worth the read

BG: I don't get it. Are you telling me that since then, and throughout 2004, the FIA scrutineers do not measure the tread width of the front tyres after they are used?

Dupasquier: "No, they don't. And they didn't ask us to provide input on how to do that either."

BG: Really? So all this affair last year - with Ferrari accusing you of cheating - it sounds like all this was just a storm in a tea cup...

Dupasquier: "Oh yeah, somebody just wanted to spoil the World Championship last year, in case they don't win..."

BG: Come on, this is important; you're telling me that... The message that Charlie Whiting sent the teams last year stated that from there on, the FIA was going to measure the tread width on worn tyres

Dupasquier: "Yes."

BG: And you're telling me they don't do it

Dupasquier: "No, the continue to measure it on fresh ones. They don't care. Somebody was pressuring them to say, why don't you find something to discredit the Michelins


#1498 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:53

From the link you provided:

It also emerged on Wednesday that Bridgestone runners Ferrari had contacted the FIA expressing concerns over the width of their rivals' tyres.

Now, lets leave this off topic discussion about the 2003 tires.
It´s a clear bias from the FIA to change their own tire rules 3 races left of the season. :stoned:


I'm sorry I forgot the exact sequence of events. However, the issue was discovered by Bridgestone and they were the ones who implored Ferrari to go to the FIA. Here is another link for interesting reading :
Final Link

The FIA has recently issued a fax regarding the front tread width size of Formula One tyres. Ross Brawn, Technical Director at the Bridgestone equipped Ferrari team has said that Ferrari brought this matter to the FIA's attention as a result of information given to him by Bridgestone. Could you clarify how and when this information about the contact patch size of your rival's front tyres came to your attention?
Hirohide Hamashima: "Yes, we have had our suspicions about this matter for some time now but it was not until this information came to our notice by way of photographic evidence at the Hungarian GP, that we could take this matter any further. I know there are some sceptics about the timing. We showed these images to Ferrari and discussed the matter at length with them and I know they took very seriously the decision whether or not to contact the FIA. "
.
.
.
Q: Why did Bridgestone not make a formal complaint to the FIA themselves?
HH: "We believe that it is important to remember that it is the teams who are competing and we are only an official supplier. Yes, we have an important role to play but we should not be bigger than the teams themselves. The people who are affected most by matters of this nature are the teams and drivers. Ultimately, it is a team decision whether to contact the FIA or not."


I see no trace of bias here by the FIA whatsoever. As I said to the other poster, prove that the Michelins were not breaking any rule instead of looking for an excuse to bash Michael Schumacher

#1499 SparkPlug

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 20:56

Sparkplug

Testing dokes not equate to racing...... he was pretty clear in the Autosport interview

and this about measurement

Anyway, it's a good 3 part interview - worth the read

BG: I don't get it. Are you telling me that since then, and throughout 2004, the FIA scrutineers do not measure the tread width of the front tyres after they are used?

Dupasquier: "No, they don't. And they didn't ask us to provide input on how to do that either."

BG: Really? So all this affair last year - with Ferrari accusing you of cheating - it sounds like all this was just a storm in a tea cup...

Dupasquier: "Oh yeah, somebody just wanted to spoil the World Championship last year, in case they don't win..."

BG: Come on, this is important; you're telling me that... The message that Charlie Whiting sent the teams last year stated that from there on, the FIA was going to measure the tread width on worn tyres

Dupasquier: "Yes."

BG: And you're telling me they don't do it

Dupasquier: "No, the continue to measure it on fresh ones. They don't care. Somebody was pressuring them to say, why don't you find something to discredit the Michelins

Mclaren still did make a statement about new tyres. However it is quite possible that they were only used for testing, not racing
Interesting reading nevertheless. Thanks !

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#1500 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 21:17

Thats not true, either
Link

"The FIA has made known its intention to check front tyre tread width after, as well as before, a race, starting at Monza. Under this interpretation of the rules, it is widely thought that Michelin's recent tyres would exceed the permitted dimensions.


I see no trace of bias here by the FIA whatsoever. As I said to the other poster, prove that the Michelins were not breaking any rule instead of looking for an excuse to bash Michael Schumacher


Your own quote makes it clear the rules were given a new interpretation that helped Schumi in 2003. Acoording to the wording of the rule, the Michelin both did comply and did not so it was by no means necessary to make a change during the season.

And the whole of the Michelin/Bridgestone period was managed by Max to help Ferrari and Michael:

"Perhaps alarmed at Michelin’s immediate success, Bridgestone reacted by pursuing a uniquely close technical collaboration with Ferrari in 2002, despite also supplying several other teams that year. Bridgestone technicians went to work at Maranello and their Ferrari counterparts headed to Japan, all in the pursuit of a superior combination of tyre dynamics and suspension configuration.

The results were devastating. Ferrari’s F2002 was almost untouchable – Michael Schumacher finished every race on the podium in 2002.

When Michelin hit back in 2003 they had their first of two bruising clashes with the FIA. Late in 2003 a change in the tyre rules forced Michelin to change their tyre construction, handing the initiative to Bridgestone, who following the rules change won 18 of the next 21 races.

Another change to the tyre rules came in 2005, forcing teams to run the entire race without changing tyres, and this resulted in Michelin enjoying a near-perfect season.

The only race they failed to win was in Indianapolis, where they discovered their tyres couldn’t run through the unique, fast, banked turn 13. While the FIA refused to accept a compromise solution that would have allowed the Michelin teams to participate, the race was contested by just the Bridgestone teams, which by now numbered just Ferrari plus Jordan and Minardi.

The FIA reversed the ‘no tyre change’ rule for 2006 but for the second year running the championships went to a Michelin-shod team and driver. But with the sport’s governing body preparing to introduce a single tyre supplier from 2008, Michelin left once more, and Bridgestone has been F1’s single tyre supplier from 2007."

F1 Fanatic

It's a catalogue of manipulation, which IMO has to reduce by some amount, small or large depending on your pov, the value of MS' achievements in that period.