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#1501 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 21:33

Your own quote makes it clear the rules were given a new interpretation that helped Schumi in 2003. Acoording to the wording of the rule, the Michelin both did comply and did not so it was by no means necessary to make a change during the season


PD said they did not change tyres

so how does it help Schumi????

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#1502 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 21:43

Thats not true, either
Link

"The FIA has made known its intention to check front tyre tread width after, as well as before, a race, starting at Monza. Under this interpretation of the rules, it is widely thought that Michelin's recent tyres would exceed the permitted dimensions.

In response, the French company has produced new designs, which were trialled by some of its partner teams at Monza last week. "

and did you know that the FIA did not test the width of the tires "after the races" in 2004 like they said they would?

Edited by Messi10, 02 May 2010 - 21:48.


#1503 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 21:45


PD said they did not change tyres

so how does it help Schumi????


Director Pierre Dupasquier , Michelin
"The new interpretation of the rules by the FIA has forced us to react," he said. "You don't think for one moment that Michelin would not respond to the challenge?

"Our people have been working 24 hours a day since last Wednesday and new tyres are being tested in Monza as we speak. For anyone that knows anything about the tyre world, to do what we've just managed is a huge achievement and this is only possible thanks to the hard work and fast reaction time of our teams here in Clermont-Ferrand."

from Sparkplug above. So who knows, people lie in F1 all the time. IIRC the results did suggest some kind of a change (haven't looked it up tho tbh).

#1504 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 21:47

I don't think you did watch the season...

let's cut the crap.. it is obvious that we all watched the 2003 season otherwise we wouldn't even bring this subject up. Its been 7 years since this incident so it is very understandable that we all have to refresh our memories about all the details of that season.. Tiregate was a controversial political ruling in part of the FIA which had two groups of people with different views depending on how you interpreted what went on..


#1505 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 21:50

undersquare

he said tested in the quote you talk about did not say race....

and in the interview with Bira he was very clear....they did not change

But most importantly, we did not modify our tyre - this year we ran the same tyre as we did last year, before Hungary. The only thing we changed was added a clear mark on both sides of the tread, to make it more visible and the measurement easier. Other than that, we did not modify anything to it - we didn't even change the mould, it's the same mould. So the conspiracy is therefore not valid."

Edited by Raelene, 02 May 2010 - 21:52.


#1506 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 21:55

I'm sorry I forgot the exact sequence of events. However, the issue was discovered by Bridgestone and they were the ones who implored Ferrari to go to the FIA. Here is another link for interesting reading :
Final Link



I see no trace of bias here by the FIA whatsoever. As I said to the other poster, prove that the Michelins were not breaking any rule instead of looking for an excuse to bash Michael Schumacher

this part about Bridgstone imploring ferrari about going to the FIA you simply made up didn't you.?. The interview you quoted clearly states that it was Ferrari's decision alone to raise the issue.. which is what I was referring to when I mentioned that Brawn was grasping at straws and contacted the FIA. so you are wrong..

Edited by Messi10, 02 May 2010 - 21:58.


#1507 kryziuotis

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:00

The only change the FIA brought to the table was to measure the tyres both before and after the race to ensure compliance with the rule.

Wow, what a shortsighted view. In fact the most important thing in every rule is how it's measured. For example take the rule about flexi wings - the rule says they are forbidden. But how can you define a flexi wing? - its impossible to achieve completely rigid wing, every wing under some load flexes a bit. So we have a defined procedure how the wing is measured, and if it passes this measurment it is considered non flexi. But it takes only to change the measurement procedure mid season - for example to apply more load, and all the wings that were legal before suddenly becomes flexi. So to change measuremet procedure is the same as to change the rule, because the measurement procedure in fact defines the rule.

The same applies to the tyres. So FIA basically changed the rules mid season to make Michelin tyres illegal - thats clear favouring of Ferrari.

#1508 RSNS

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:00

http://www.theogray....ecret-diary.asp

Link for some of his older diaries. The older ones are much funnier.

I'm a bit annoyed because the Monaco 2006 one is not on there and the link I have is not working but I have found it. Here it is.

Hello tifosis. I had a bit of a strange weekend, I can tell you. So far I have not revealed the true reason of what is happening to me in Rascasse on Saturday, but quite honestly and obviously I would like to get it all over my chest.


First of all I would like to thank the Ferrari pitcrew for going on the Planet-F1 poll and voting "No it was a complete accident" for the last two days.


Because this is truly what it was. I know many people have said many nasty things about what I did, but it is true. Keke Rosberg said it was the cheapest dirtiest trick, but what does he know about F1. When he was World Champion in 1982 he won it with only seven points, and three of those he got by converting Air Miles.


Jarno Trulli said if he was parking the car he could do it better, well maybe that's what he'll be doing for a living after this season.


Jacques Villebeuve said it was the most embarrassing thing he's ever seen. Well, he clearly hasn't seen Ron Dennis dance or Norbert Haug in his Bavarian weekend leisure lederhosen.


I challenged all the critics and said they should come up and tell me I'm a cheat to my face. All they have to do is get through the tight security around the outside of the Ferrari motorhome, fill in a "Schumi-you're-a-cheat" accreditation form and wait to hear back from Luca Colliani. Then we shall see, eh, eh. Yes. Come and have a go if you think you're firm enough!


Anyway, what was happening on my second hot lap, you are wanting to know...


It all started on the Friday, our day off. As you know in Monaco we practise on Thursdays and take Friday off, because it is traditional in Monaco that nobody works on Friday because nobody has to do very much except scratch their arses and buy stuff.


As you know tifosis I despise tax exiles, I only live in Switzerland because of my great love of cuckoo clocks and the healthy environment.


Anyway, we had a hard promotional day and at the end of it, Luca, Chris, Ross and I decided to do what the old F1 drivers used to do - you know Jim Clark, Graham Hill, and Sterling Moss in the swinging 1960s - pay a visit to the Tip Top club. So, we got there and I had a couple of ginger beers while Ross helped Sterling Moss, who was still there chasing dolly birds on his Motability scooter.


I am not used to the fizzy bubbles and all of a sudden I am going dizzy and waking up in this hotel room in my underpants and there is this blonde model with enormous gazongas absolutely stark naked.


You know how Cora Schumacher looks a little bit like a porn star? Well, like that but classier. The kind of girl Kimi Raikkonen can't pull at a pole dancing club. And she is walking toward me saying: "Schumi, you have been very bad, I will have to tie you up now."


I can remember blurting out, "No, no, I tipped the waiter 20 euros, that is enough."


I tried to get up but I am so unused to intoxicating beverages that my legs are crumpling downwards and my nose is getting parked in between these massive mountainous norks.


At which point Chris Dyer my engineer comes in and rescues me before she can take the video for News of the World or F1 Racing Magazine, whichever it is.


Now, you know your Schumi. On the Saturday I am totally focused on the job in my hands and I have already secured the pole position. For the second run I am travelling at speed towards the Rascasse when suddenly I get to the hairpin and look up. There, on the balcony, is the blonde with the enormous norks waving her mobile phone at me and dressed in nothing but earrings and a big smile.


The shock is so great that I stamp on the brake pedal and lock the brakes, (as you have seen on TV) then my mind goes blank and all of a sudden I have wandered towards the wall like Yuji Ide on one of his better laps.


I stagger out of the car and everybody is shouting, "You parked the car, you cheat," while I am secretly thinking 'I hope the blonde with the enormous norks hasn't got any photos'.


So when people ask me what happened, I can hardly tell them about my hotel romp, so this is a very big problem. Because Lieblings Pudgie Wudgie Donut Face will be raising the drawbridge at Schloss Schumi if she finds out. So I have to stay tight lipped. I cannot tell Max what really happened, because then he would tell Matt Bishop.


Ross has told the pitcrew but everyone is sworn to secrecy. Even Jean doesn't know.


Thankfully I am lucky to have the support of some understanding tifosis like you, who know I am not just fabricating an elaborate cover story because secretly I was actually cheating, which quite honestly and obviously I wasn't.


You are the very best tifosis a Schum could ask for


Keep on voting on those polls, to clear your Schum's name.


The Schum


Thanks :)


#1509 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:00

so you are wrong..


just as you were about new tyres...

#1510 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:03

just as you were about new tyres...


what I remember reading was PD interview after Hungary where he said that they would need to bring new tires to Monza for which the teams were not prepared for.. And that interview is documented and someone already posted it above..

#1511 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:05

sigh....again - read the interview I posted. In fact go on Autopsort and read the 3 paqrt interview with him...

#1512 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:06

sigh....again - read the interview I posted. In fact go on Autopsort and read the 3 paqrt interview with him...

and that interview was in 04.. is that right?

#1513 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:11

yes - and?

and he talks about Ross Brawn and how they could have sued him for slander etc.

Point is - they didn't change the tyres like you and others claim...therefore this "advantage" MS got is nil

#1514 undersquare

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:15

undersquare

he said tested in the quote you talk about did not say race....

and in the interview with Bira he was very clear....they did not change

But most importantly, we did not modify our tyre - this year we ran the same tyre as we did last year, before Hungary. The only thing we changed was added a clear mark on both sides of the tread, to make it more visible and the measurement easier. Other than that, we did not modify anything to it - we didn't even change the mould, it's the same mould. So the conspiracy is therefore not valid."


Isn't that interview from 2004? So the tyres from Hungary on in 2003 were narrower? Then over the Winter Michelin persuaded the FIA to quietly revert to the old way of measuring new tyres only.

#1515 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:17

yes - and?

and he talks about Ross Brawn and how they could have sued him for slander etc.

Point is - they didn't change the tyres like you and others claim...therefore this "advantage" MS got is nil

:rotfl: if it was a nil advantage then why in the world would Ross bring it up in the first place.. .. In Hungary, Shumi was lapping 1 second slower than the michelin front runners and was lapped by Alonso.. That advantage was clearly lost starting from Monza, when Williams/Mclaren had to either change their setups to compromise performance or change their tyre - which ever one was the case..
So yes, politics manipulated the results..

Edited by Messi10, 02 May 2010 - 22:31.


#1516 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:19

Isn't that interview from 2004? So the tyres from Hungary on in 2003 were narrower? Then over the Winter Michelin persuaded the FIA to quietly revert to the old way of measuring new tyres only.

I think this is what happened.. In the 2003 interview he said that they had to use/test new tires for the upcoming races.. During the off-season, the FIA went back to the old system and the tires went back to being the same and not tested after the race so in essence there was a manipulation of the interpretation of the rules for "just" those three last races in 2003..

Edited by Messi10, 02 May 2010 - 22:19.


#1517 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 22:54

if it was a nil advantage then why in the world would Ross bring it up in the first place


you are an excitable young thing aren't you

He bought it up HOPING for an advantage.... of course... but it didn't work..

undersquare

note: he said " same as BEFORE HUNGARY


anyway, I suggest you both go and read all 3 parts of the interview in full to get a better understanding of what happened. just do a search for "a dinner in Paris" and you will find it easily - it is for subscribers only...

Edited by Raelene, 02 May 2010 - 23:13.


#1518 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 23:15

He bought it up HOPING for an advantage.... of course... but it didn't work..

the advantage MS got was getting rid of the advantage Williams/Mclaren had for the last three races of the season..

#1519 Raelene

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 23:21

the advantage MS got was getting rid of the advantage Williams/Mclaren had for the last three races of the season


LOL - so they had an advantage all season - you say MS got an advantage last 3 races - how - Michelin did not change their tyres...


and ala PD - So the conspiracy is therefore not valid."


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#1520 Messi10

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Posted 02 May 2010 - 23:52

the advantage they had was only illegal after Hungary because of a change in the interpretation of the rules. I don't have to break it down for you.. it is all there in that same interview that you provided. It was politics - if they did not change their tire, in order for the teams to have the tires measure exactly 270 after the race was over was for them to compromise with their setups and that impacted their performance otherwise why would shumi win at monza when in Hungary he was lapped by the winner of the race and lapping 1 second slower..

You should also be aware that the FIA told the teams that the tires will be measured after race so why they didn't do it in 2004 as DP said in that interview?.. The tires after the last race of 2003 were only measured at the start of the race just like before..

#1521 Raelene

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 00:42

why would shumi win at monza when in Hungary he was lapped by the winner of the race and lapping 1 second slower..


again...read in the interviews........

#1522 merschu

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 05:48

This is a humble request please don't ruin this thread with the Michelin tyre story! The last page was full of this! You want to discuss Michelin go and open another thread. This is a Michael Schumacher thread, and if you guys keep talking about Michelin then Mods might close this thread! :|

As Victor_RO already has said:
RC Forum Host

This thread is about Michael Schumacher, not about the FIA's rulings on Michelin and floors and whatnot. Please keep on topic.


Edited by merschu, 03 May 2010 - 06:00.


#1523 cheapracer

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 06:08

It´s a clear bias from the FIA to change their own tire rules 3 races left of the season. :stoned:


Thats crap, many a case of things being changed when found to be out of kilt regardless of what time in the season.




#1524 undersquare

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 07:08

you are an excitable young thing aren't you

He bought it up HOPING for an advantage.... of course... but it didn't work..

undersquare

note: he said " same as BEFORE HUNGARY

anyway, I suggest you both go and read all 3 parts of the interview in full to get a better understanding of what happened. just do a search for "a dinner in Paris" and you will find it easily - it is for subscribers only...


I suggest you make your case with evidence and without the petty insults. The dinner interview is from 2004 talking about Michelin 2004 tyres being the same as before Hungary 2003. Not the ones used for the last races of 2003, which were narrower. As has been explained very clearly. And as was an advantage for Michael.

#1525 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:15

I suggest you make your case with evidence and without the petty insults. The dinner interview is from 2004 talking about Michelin 2004 tyres being the same as before Hungary 2003. Not the ones used for the last races of 2003, which were narrower. As has been explained very clearly. And as was an advantage for Michael.


What a load of nonsense this thread has turned into. It seems as though the anti Schumacher guys here are just intent on hijacking the thread with more and more unsubstantiated claims.

This is Montoya's interview after the Monza race :

Q: Juan Pablo, BMW Williams have been very strong here over the last two years, not quite as strong today, perhaps. How do you put that in relation to the regulation change we've had over the last week or so?
JPM: I don't think it's got anything to do with it. The way it looked the last few races, it seems that Ferrari was in a bit of our position over the last few years: that we struggle in most of the races, came here and were very strong


Also, there was never a change in rules per say. The 270mm rule is in place since 1999. The official FIA statement:

A number of press reports have suggested that the FIA has changed or re-interpreted the tyre regulations. This is not correct. The maximum tread width has been 270mm since 1999. The FIA has never suggested that tread width was unlimited once the tyre was in use.



#1526 undersquare

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:26

What a load of nonsense this thread has turned into. It seems as though the anti Schumacher guys here are just intent on hijacking the thread with more and more unsubstantiated claims.


It's no hijack, in the main it's a reasoned discussion of advantages enjoyed by Schumi in the Max era. You have a funny idea of 'unsubstantiated'. 'Unwelcome' perhaps...

#1527 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:27

Your own quote makes it clear the rules were given a new interpretation that helped Schumi in 2003. Acoording to the wording of the rule, the Michelin both did comply and did not so it was by no means necessary to make a change during the season.

The rule only concerned tyre width, which stated it had to be 270mm. There was no rule regarding the timing of checks, it was only communicated verbally to the teams.

YAnd the whole of the Michelin/Bridgestone period was managed by Max to help Ferrari and Michael:

And you say this inspite of seeing all the evidence in front of you in this thread ?

Another change to the tyre rules came in 2005, forcing teams to run the entire race without changing tyres, and this resulted in Michelin enjoying a near-perfect season.

The only race they failed to win was in Indianapolis, where they discovered their tyres couldn’t run through the unique, fast, banked turn 13. While the FIA refused to accept a compromise solution that would have allowed the Michelin teams to participate, the race was contested by just the Bridgestone teams, which by now numbered just Ferrari plus Jordan and Minardi.

Another fallacy. Michelin did not have good enough tyres to bring to Indianapolis, how is that Bridgestone's fault ? FYI, putting in a chicane on the track was totally out of the question as well, as it would have meant changing the track which brings with it a whole host of safety issues.

F1 Fanatic

It's a catalogue of manipulation, which IMO has to reduce by some amount, small or large depending on your pov, the value of MS' achievements in that period.

No, its not. Its an opinion by a journalist which can be disproved easily. I am a lifelong Mika Hakkinen supporter but really, you'd have to be blind not to see that all the rule changes brought in between 2000-2004 were done inorder to stop the all dominant MS-Ferrari team and not help them. Without changing the rules in all probability MS and Ferrari would have had every season like 2002. Everything from the single lap qualifying, change in points system, the one tyre rule was done with the sole purpose of stopping MS and Ferrari from winning.

If they really wanted to favor Ferrari, they'd have left the rules untouched instead of making F1 a circus with all those random rule changes.


#1528 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:30

It's no hijack, in the main it's a reasoned discussion of advantages enjoyed by Schumi in the Max era. You have a funny idea of 'unsubstantiated'. 'Unwelcome' perhaps...

You claimed Ferrari got an advantage out of the change in the regulations, it is an unsubstantiated claim isnt it ? I just gave you a quote of the strongest Michelin driver who said it didnt make a difference. Do you know more about the tyres than him ?

There is also an interview by DP which says they didnt change their tyres(probably only tested new tyres but not used ), how does this prove any advanage ? I am interested in knowing

#1529 undersquare

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:45

You claimed Ferrari got an advantage out of the change in the regulations, it is an unsubstantiated claim isnt it ? I just gave you a quote of the strongest Michelin driver who said it didnt make a difference. Do you know more about the tyres than him ?

There is also an interview by DP which says they didnt change their tyres(probably only tested new tyres but not used ), how does this prove any advanage ? I am interested in knowing


I don't think you are interested in knowing but anyway... JPM saying something is not proof. The narrower tyres obviously were less grippy otherwise they'd have stayed with them, and they didn't. The DP interviews are TWO: one about 2003 in which he says they changed the tyres for the last 3 races of 2003 and one in 2004 in which he says the 2004 tyres were the same as the early 2003 ones.

#1530 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 08:50

I don't think you are interested in knowing but anyway... JPM saying something is not proof. The narrower tyres obviously were less grippy otherwise they'd have stayed with them, and they didn't. The DP interviews are TWO: one about 2003 in which he says they changed the tyres for the last 3 races of 2003 and one in 2004 in which he says the 2004 tyres were the same as the early 2003 ones.

JPMs statement certainly better proof and of more value than an armchair expert on a forum like you and me.
As for the tyres, I am confused myself, but none of the links I have read or posted have DP saying that they used new tyres for races, and not just for testing. I am confused myself now ):

#1531 Augurk

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:09

What a silly discussion this is.
Let me try to end it very simply.

Try to imagine: The law dictates you can only drive a maximum of 60mph on a certain road, but you know that in situation A the police only measure the speed at the very beginning of the road. Therefore you choose to drive 60mph at the beginning and after that it's full on at 100mph until you reach your destination.

In situation B the police has decided to add another measuring point in the middle of the road.

In which situation are you in violation of the law when driving 100mph down the road? Only in situation B, because that's the only time the police measure your speed when you are above the speed limit?

Of course not. In either case you are in violation of the law, just in situation B you get caught.

It's as simple as that. I'll leave it up to yourself to see the parallels with the Michelin situation, which can't be that hard ;)

#1532 undersquare

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:35

JPMs statement certainly better proof and of more value than an armchair expert on a forum like you and me.
As for the tyres, I am confused myself, but none of the links I have read or posted have DP saying that they used new tyres for races, and not just for testing. I am confused myself now ):


Well for me I look for an explanation why Dupasquier mentioned Hungary at all, there must be some significance.

And why he said in November 2004 that they used the same tyres as before Hungary 2003.

The only answer I can come up with is that they changed the tyres after Hungary 2003 to a narrower one that met the 270mm requirement at the end of the race. Then over the Winter they persuaded the FIA to go back to measuring only new tyres. And went back to the wider tyre because it was faster.


#1533 Messi10

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 09:36

guys, the ruling was BS because the second check was only implemented for those last three races of the season.. after that (2004 forward) the FIA decided that the second check was no longer needed and that the tires would only be measured at the first check point, before the race, which is how it was up until Hungary 2003 since it is very difficult to calculate after the race due to tyre wear.. A driver can simply run off the road and be to hard on a curb that the tire may simply get distorted from its original form.. We are talking about millimeters here...

If this is not a clear indication that the WDC was manipulated for those last three races then I don't what is..

I am pretty sure that those who disagree that the FIA was bias have no reasonable explanation for this..


"After the Hungarian GP, the FIA has decided a new interpretation of the sporting regulation concerning F1 tyres. This applies to the definition of the front tyres tread width, which was so far measured when new, according to article 77)c) of the Sporting Regulations. The FIA wants us now to consider the width of the front contact patch after the tyre has been used on track.

"We would like to point out a few facts.

"Our front tyre profile has been deemed 'to comply with the F1 Regulations' in writing by the FIA. The controls have been made on new tyres, which confirms the interpretation of article 77)c).

"The procedure to measure the width of a contact patch as required now is unknown at the moment, which prevents any further work. We can expect some difficulties in the definition since a tyre in its use can be in systematic contact with various 'objects', for example curbs, which, according to their profile and position, can touch up as far as the middle of the side walls.

"All Michelin's partners are concerned by this regulation change, as they all use the same front tyre profile

"We are fully open to discuss this regulation change wished by the FIA and help to define a measurement procedure which could be enforced in 2004. We feel it is of course not realistic to ask for it before the Italian F1 Grand Prix."

Edited by Messi10, 03 May 2010 - 09:37.


#1534 baddog

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 10:19

In that year, and only in that year, a tyre company made a tyre which exploited what they saw as a loophole in the regs allowing them to exceed the maximum width during races. I WILL NOT get into an argument about whether that was a fair thing to do here, thats water a very long way under the bridge, but it was certainly fair for the FIA to close the loophole. Especially as all Michelin had to do was change the procedures not try to make a new tyre.

From that year on actually doing the test after the race was not deemed necessary as everyone had got the point, but should a situation ever arise where one company in a competitve tyre situation is playing those games they now understand the principle which is that the scrutineers may test your tyres at any time not just when new.

#1535 Jan.W

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 11:51

The rule only concerned tyre width, which stated it had to be 270mm. There was no rule regarding the timing of checks, it was only communicated verbally to the teams.


And you say this inspite of seeing all the evidence in front of you in this thread ?


Another fallacy. Michelin did not have good enough tyres to bring to Indianapolis, how is that Bridgestone's fault ? FYI, putting in a chicane on the track was totally out of the question as well, as it would have meant changing the track which brings with it a whole host of safety issues.


No, its not. Its an opinion by a journalist which can be disproved easily. I am a lifelong Mika Hakkinen supporter but really, you'd have to be blind not to see that all the rule changes brought in between 2000-2004 were done inorder to stop the all dominant MS-Ferrari team and not help them. Without changing the rules in all probability MS and Ferrari would have had every season like 2002. Everything from the single lap qualifying, change in points system, the one tyre rule was done with the sole purpose of stopping MS and Ferrari from winning.

If they really wanted to favor Ferrari, they'd have left the rules untouched instead of making F1 a circus with all those random rule changes.

:up:



#1536 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:11

In that year, and only in that year, a tyre company made a tyre which exploited what they saw as a loophole in the regs allowing them to exceed the maximum width during races. I WILL NOT get into an argument about whether that was a fair thing to do here, thats water a very long way under the bridge, but it was certainly fair for the FIA to close the loophole. Especially as all Michelin had to do was change the procedures not try to make a new tyre.

From that year on actually doing the test after the race was not deemed necessary as everyone had got the point, but should a situation ever arise where one company in a competitve tyre situation is playing those games they now understand the principle which is that the scrutineers may test your tyres at any time not just when new.


That year is only that year (2005), one year in the many years of Michael Schumacher´s career.

For what it´s worth, there are two kinds of years in Schumi´s long and successful career: 1994 - 2004 and 2006 on the one hand, and 1991-1993, 2005 and 2010 on the other hand.
And when the similarities in those years are being discussed in terms of Michael´s achievements and regs, some people on this thread go ballistic.

For their sake, let us hope that 2011 will be a year in the 1994-2004/2006 mode.

 ;)



#1537 SparkPlug

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:33

That year is only that year (2005), one year in the many years of Michael Schumacher´s career.

For what it´s worth, there are two kinds of years in Schumi´s long and successful career: 1994 - 2004 and 2006 on the one hand, and 1991-1993, 2005 and 2010 on the other hand.
And when the similarities in those years are being discussed in terms of Michael´s achievements and regs, some people on this thread go ballistic.

For their sake, let us hope that 2011 will be a year in the 1994-2004/2006 mode.

;)

I dont think there is two kinds of MS careers at all. I started watching F1 a long time before MS entered the sport, and I can tell you for one that MS was THE talking point in 1991-93. Every F1 racer knew that this kid had something special. Its not as though he was this average joe who out of nowhere became world class in a matter of a season in 1994. You ought to watch the 1992 season. He was very fast, and very good even in the seasons before he won championships.
He just didnt have a car to challenge for a championship up until 1994

Edited by SparkPlug, 03 May 2010 - 12:34.


#1538 warmandog

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:49

I dont think there is two kinds of MS careers at all. I started watching F1 a long time before MS entered the sport, and I can tell you for one that MS was THE talking point in 1991-93. Every F1 racer knew that this kid had something special. Its not as though he was this average joe who out of nowhere became world class in a matter of a season in 1994. You ought to watch the 1992 season. He was very fast, and very good even in the seasons before he won championships.
He just didnt have a car to challenge for a championship up until 1994


you spoted the right thing into this nonsence battle.
how dificult for blind people ( mere fans ) its just to understand that, without a proper machinery, without having a good feeling of you resource you cant do neighter shit.
thats why i just keep reading and reading and its like... oh my god the old man returned.. and its doing so bad. that we have to forget about his real achievements.
do you want facts...!!!
facts is that since schumi returns the sparks have return to formula 1. see the increase in ticketing. and the ammount of people that now watch the formula one.
is that dificult for you FANS to realize that?
Michael Schumacher will be at formula one ( competing ) for the 3 years he signed for.
no matter how slow he perform , no matter how many bulshit people state.
its just plain and simple
and enjoy it as you can.

regards

Alex C.


#1539 aditya-now

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 12:59

I dont think there is two kinds of MS careers at all. I started watching F1 a long time before MS entered the sport, and I can tell you for one that MS was THE talking point in 1991-93.


I know, I was around myself, having watched F1 since the Monaco GP 1970. He was the hot new prospect back in 1991-93.

The two different kinds of the Schumacher years refers to the fact, that from 1994 - 2004 and in 2006 the regs played particularily to Michael´s strength: refuelling, low fuel loads, short stints, sprint type racing, frequent possibility to change the tyres, that Michael is very abrasive with, especially on the rear tyres.
The whole thing has been discussed one or two pages back in this thread.
Whenever longer stints, heavier fuel loads, less opportunity to change tyres etc. were in the mix, Michael was still very good, but not exceptional. See 2005, 2010 as well as the early years.

MS has also started to downplay the possibility of things getting better for him from Barcelona onwards:

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/15686.html

Clever move, if he gets sizably better from Barcelona onwards it will be a nice surprise, if not he wants to take cover already in case of another public outcry. Something neither he nor Mercedes want to have.

Things are still in the balance for him, it could go this way or that way, yet the stakes are high.

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#1540 Raelene

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 21:04

I suggest you make your case with evidence and without the petty insults. The dinner interview is from 2004 talking about Michelin 2004 tyres being the same as before Hungary 2003. Not the ones used for the last races of 2003, which were narrower. As has been explained very clearly. And as was an advantage for Michael.



Have you read the interview????

http://atlasf1.autos...ov17/goren.html



another part for you

BG: OK, clarify this for me, then: if in China, for example, Charlie Whiting would have done the same thing after the race - measured the tread width of the used tyres - is there a chance that he would have again found it to be more than 270mm?

Dupasquier: "Absolutely, oh yes, absolutely. And we would have told him in response that this part of the tyre is not in constant and permanent contact with the ground, so it's not the tread."


Please - read the interview and if you still don't get what he's saying - start a new thread about it...

#1541 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 May 2010 - 21:58

Not a Senna thread. Please will members stop trolling and stick to the topic:

Aim of this thread is to discuss issues related to Michael Schumacher. After Bahrain voices were heard about several weaknesses in his current cornering technique. It is my hope we can continue in that spirit, and check on him through the season.



#1542 merschu

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:09

Schumi was racing karts last weekend in Germany.

Schumacher on pole for kart races in Germany
The 41-year-old German won the first of two heats
Monday 3 May 2010 - 18h37, by GMM

Michael Schumacher moved to shake off more of the rust of his three year retirement at the weekend by racing karts.
After finishing just tenth at the wheel of his Mercedes in China, the seven time world champion reverted to 40 horse power at the Erftlandring circuit in Germany and set pole position in a Tony Kart for the 125cc KZ2 class.

The 41-year-old German won the first of two heats, but was beaten in the second.

Not only will Schumacher’s W01 chassis be a new one in Barcelona this weekend, the package has been updated for a longer wheelbase that should satisfy his desire for a less understeering car."I am hoping for a better race than I had in China and of course I would not mind having had better results so far," he said.


http://www.motorspor...p...66552&FS=F1

Another Bild article said:

Michael Schumacher will be at the factory in Brackly, on Monday and Tuesday to check out the latest developments on the car,before joining the rest of the F1 Circus in Barcelona on Thursday


Edited by merschu, 04 May 2010 - 08:39.


#1543 LOTI

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:37

May the 4th be with him!

Sorry, but it is the only day of the year that you can do the silly silly joke.
[and I hope it is]
[[with him]]

#1544 Frans

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 08:36

hehe hehe, ... did he win something ? .... hehe hehe .... no waaaaay? ... now let's get all excited for the weekend then! :rotfl:

#1545 as65p

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:49

Schumi was racing karts last weekend in Germany.



http://www.motorspor...p...66552&FS=F1

Another Bild article said:


From all I read it's NOT a new chassis but the one they used in testing. In german "Motorsport aktuell" they also wrote that the wheelbase is prolonged by means of changing the suspension angle, while the suspension mounting points stayed the same. They claim that one can gain a maximum of approx. 5cm wheelbase that way. Allegedly in Monaco they will use the shorter version again because it should be better there.

Edited by as65p, 04 May 2010 - 09:50.


#1546 One

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:55

I am guessing that Now Schumacher will make his great return a reality.

#1547 merschu

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:01

From all I read it's NOT a new chassis but the one they used in testing. In german "Motorsport aktuell" they also wrote that the wheelbase is prolonged by means of changing the suspension angle, while the suspension mounting points stayed the same. They claim that one can gain a maximum of approx. 5cm wheelbase that way. Allegedly in Monaco they will use the shorter version again because it should be better there.



I have also read the same thing that it is not a totally new chassis but the one used during testing in the beginning of the year.


#1548 Boing 2

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:28

What a silly discussion this is.
Let me try to end it very simply.

Try to imagine: The law dictates you can only drive a maximum of 60mph on a certain road, but you know that in situation A the police only measure the speed at the very beginning of the road. Therefore you choose to drive 60mph at the beginning and after that it's full on at 100mph until you reach your destination.

In situation B the police has decided to add another measuring point in the middle of the road.

In which situation are you in violation of the law when driving 100mph down the road? Only in situation B, because that's the only time the police measure your speed when you are above the speed limit?

Of course not. In either case you are in violation of the law, just in situation B you get caught.

It's as simple as that. I'll leave it up to yourself to see the parallels with the Michelin situation, which can't be that hard ;)


What if they say tread depth has to be 20 mm before the race, then they suddenly say "we're going to measure them after the race too" you've gone from a tyre that's allowed to degrade to one that's not, that's a rule change.


#1549 Hacklerf

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:31

Yea, Brawn said its the one he used in Barcelona testing

#1550 Augurk

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 10:33

What if they say tread depth has to be 20 mm before the race, then they suddenly say "we're going to measure them after the race too" you've gone from a tyre that's allowed to degrade to one that's not, that's a rule change.

We're talking about different things. The rules stated the thread width should not exceed 270mm throughout the sessions. It's not about degradation. What happened was that they had a tyre that whilst in use at a high speeds expanded so they had more surface touching the asphalt. That resulted in more grip. The FIA basically had a flawed measuring point in only measuring it before the race as this was no way of making sure they would not expand beyond 270mm throughout the race.